Bitcoin is more Marxist Incline | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: 6bored4shell13 on August 21, 2021, 07:52:54 PM

Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

what is marxist?
in a simple definition, Marxist is an economic theory that focuses on the struggle between the capitalist and the working class.

The capitalist focused on profit maximization and a capitalist state is more tax oriented and the government generates profits and this system was made popular in the nineteenth century. The government provides services to it, citizens, with the mindset of making profits and not providing social amenities as it responds.

Marxist theory advocate that this class struggle will lead to an economic revolution where the citizens will overthrow the government and take over the economy.

if you Look at Bitcoin closely as a decentralized currency that will overthrow the traditional financial system and take total control of the economy because bitcoin is controlled by the people and not the capitalists whose only interest is how to regulate and tax it, citizens, through the third party centralized institutions.

This draws me to the conclusion that Bitcoin was birthed with a Marxist orientation and the is why the capitalist and other centralized government systems hate it because of the financial freedom it offers.

The CCP banned Bitcoin. . .

Hahaha! You are right! We forget quickly! But from OP’s point of view, if Bitcoin truly is Marxist/Maoist, depending on your school of thought both are Communists, then is the CCP’s ban on Bitcoin also another form of censorship on Marxist/Maoist ideals? OP? Cool

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Well, the big difference is that Bitcoin is open to capitalists too and we are witnessing it now being bought, owned and hold by people who got the money or the resources to do so. Bitcoin is agnostic yet somehow it can be tool to freed the people however the government will not just be standing by and watch as this control is slipping away and this can be the biggest reason why we saw China banned cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is empowering the people away from the government and financial control by institutions but even the government and financial institutions can own Bitcoin anytime, anywhere. In my opinion, I am not inclined to conclude that Bitcoin is really Marxist and I don't like that kind of an association in the first place.

6bored4shell13

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Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

what is marxist?
in a simple definition, Marxist is an economic theory that focuses on the struggle between the capitalist and the working class.

The capitalist focused on profit maximization and a capitalist state is more tax oriented and the government generates profits and this system was made popular in the nineteenth century. The government provides services to it, citizens, with the mindset of making profits and not providing social amenities as it responds.

Marxist theory advocate that this class struggle will lead to an economic revolution where the citizens will overthrow the government and take over the economy.

if you Look at Bitcoin closely as a decentralized currency that will overthrow the traditional financial system and take total control of the economy because bitcoin is controlled by the people and not the capitalists whose only interest is how to regulate and tax it, citizens, through the third party centralized institutions.

This draws me to the conclusion that Bitcoin was birthed with a Marxist orientation and the is why the capitalist and other centralized government systems hate it because of the financial freedom it offers.

The CCP banned Bitcoin. . .

Tessnik

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I think that the Marxist theorists advocate for freedom and distribution of the commonwealth according to individual efforts and power in the society, bitcoin has offered us financial freedom.

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Quote from: Fundamentals Of on August 19, 2021, 12:48:29 AM

Bitcoin has nothing to do with the struggle between the capitalists and the working class. Bitcoin does not even envision taking over the power of the government, not even the economy.

I think this is simply putting too much insinuations with Bitcoin. What now if Bitcoin is for financial freedom? Is it already Marxist? Are we considered Marxist if we fight for financial freedom?

Bitcoin is just a digital currency which is considered more appropriate to the digital growth of the world.

it's true that this is too closely related to marxist. Thinking that far to overthrow the government is beyond our minds. We just want to live with financial freedom without bringing anyone down. Even shift the physical currency once . Because physical currency has its own power in society and we still need it.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 21, 2021, 06:58:13 AM

Quote from: Kong Hey Pakboy on August 19, 2021, 07:57:12 AM

~~~

But some people are more equal then others... just look wealth status of all leaders produced by this communist ideology, all of them are filthy rich.
Bitcoin also made some people reach but there was no forced wealth distribution, forced reeducation and camps involved in this process.

That's why I said communism in theory, of course it won't work because we're going to have a debate in regards to equal worth. Also, I don't think that the advantaged people are going to like the idea that everything is equal because they're the one's that's getting left behind when everything is equal, remember the last Emperor of China, when he got dethroned, he doesn't even know how to get home.

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Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

Marxist theory advocate that this class struggle will lead to an economic revolution where the citizens will overthrow the government and take over the economy.

And what will happen once they do? Won't that make them then capitalists? I don't know about you, but I find the comparison of Marxist's theory & Bitcoin not making that much sense. What we're living will exist with or without Bitcoin.

There are just some hopeful souls who think that their money (Bitcoin) can overthrow another one which is, unconsciously, done to make themselves richer. I may support Bitcoin as a concept, but as a currency that could take over the economy? Nah. Too many problems. It would make myself richer, though, but I consider myself far from clueless.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Kong Hey Pakboy on August 19, 2021, 07:57:12 AM

Communism in theory has everyone equal no matter what job you have and everything is distributed equally. You're mad not because of theory but because of application, to be honest I don't think that bitcoin falls in any of those ideology, I think it's just freedom for bitcoin.

But some people are more equal then others... just look wealth status of all leaders produced by this communist ideology, all of them are filthy rich.
Bitcoin also made some people reach but there was no forced wealth distribution, forced reeducation and camps involved in this process.

Quote from: DooMAD on August 19, 2021, 03:24:14 PM

I'd suggest equal distribution of wealth probably isn't considered a fundamental tenet of Bitcoin for most people here.

And this is something impossible to achieve because there would always be someone who received share of that wealth (let's say Bitcoin) earlier than someone else, and he will have advantage over people who received their share after him.
Not to mention ruling class of that system who are always getting richer in this utopia like wealth distribution, then they introduce inflation and hyperinflation as next step that will make rest of the people more poor.

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Quote from: cr1776 on August 19, 2021, 01:15:35 PM

Quote from: Kong Hey Pakboy on August 19, 2021, 07:57:12 AM

~~~

I am not mad at all, I just want freedom and forced equality is anti-liberty. I agree that bitcoin doesn't fall in any of those ideologies which was the point - bitcoin is about freedom where anyone involved in bitcoin is there because they want to be, not because someone is forcing them to be.

If you want freedom then you're contradicting yourself, you said that bitcoin doesn't fall in any of those ideologies but your title title clearly says bitcoin is Marxist meaning that it's scope within a certain ideology.

Quote from: cr1776 on August 19, 2021, 01:15:35 PM

Communism, socialism and fascism all require the force of government to tell you to do what they want and how they want it. They will take everything from every single person and then "redistribute" it to someone else. It means you do not have the right to the products of your mind or the products of your labor. That is evil and immoral. It was evil when Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Castro, Chavez, Kim Jong-un and all the other authoritarian people who have done so over the millennia imposed their will on people, just as it was evil when the US Democrat party imposed it on the US slaves. It caused hundreds of millions of deaths over the 20th century because someone who is free isn't going to submit to the slavery imposed by fascism, socialism or communism or any other collectivist authoritarian form of government.

What? Bitcoin never did any of that atrocities.

Quote from: cr1776 on August 19, 2021, 01:15:35 PM

Imposed equality and imposed "equity" means that no one is free. Those ideologies are about slavery imposed by an elite group on everyone else.

There's no such thing as an imposed freedom because there's no true freedom, even the birds are chained to the sky.

Wind_FURY

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Bitcoin is more Marxist Inclined

OP, the Honey Badger don’t care. Bitcoin is merely a tool/solution developed by Satoshi Nakamoto, which he believed might be useful against a financial system that is controlled, and its rules are decided by an exclusive CABAL. Your opinions are respected, but if you say it’s “the truth”, or it’s “the path”, is debatable.

Luke Briggs

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According to Marx's classic monetary theory, the essence of money can be summarized as follows: Money is a commodity that is fixed as a general equivalent.
As currency, it is first of all commodities. Commodities are products of labor used for exchange.
They have two attributes: use value and value.
Use value is an attribute that a commodity can satisfy a certain need of human beings, and it is a natural attribute of a commodity.
The relative credit currency, Bitcoin, is essentially closer to gold or Musk’s currency in nature.
Bitcoin is more in line with Marx's definition of money than credit money
Perhaps Bitcoin is really the direction of future currency development.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

if you Look at Bitcoin closely as a decentralized currency that will overthrow the traditional financial system and take total control of the economy because bitcoin is controlled by the people and not the capitalists whose only interest is how to regulate and tax it, citizens, through the third party centralized institutions.

This draws me to the conclusion that Bitcoin was birthed with a Marxist orientation and the is why the capitalist and other centralized government systems hate it because of the financial freedom it offers.

Satoshi never said anything about overthrowing the current financial system, this narrative came later when libertarians have turned their attention to Bitcoin. Satoshi proposed Bitcoin as an alternative to banks and fiat currency.

Marxists and communists hate currency as a concept, in their envisioned communism there will simply be no such thing, so no place for Bitcoin. And since usually they want to build communism through authoritarian socialism first, there's again no room for Bitcoin, because it would undermine the socialist government.

I recommend you to any online community of marxists and post your thoughts on Bitcoin there and see how they will react.

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Quote from: Poker Player on August 19, 2021, 12:16:25 AM

So check your notions because it seems to me that what happens here is that you are a Marxist and then you tend to see everything in your prism, but try to see things from an objective point of view.

People have a romantic view of marxism and try to mask its real meaning and history background to make it looks fancier, as if it was an ideology which had noble goals. Maybe some days in the old soviet republics would make them change their minds really fast.

Quote from: Tessnik on August 19, 2021, 02:26:52 PM

Marxism seeks freedom, which is the same as bitcoin seek for financial freedom and equal distribution of wealth.

That is totally inconsistent, because there isn't freedom in flat equality.

Each person is different from their pairs and each one's personal characteristics will influence on every aspects of their lives, including the financial life, so in no way there will be equality simply by the free will of individuals. Some are more economical while others spend without limits, some work more while others are lazier, some have been born in wealthy families while others in poor families. Equality can be only achieved through brutal force as leftist systems of government let very clear where they are applied.

Freedom also means you are free to be richer than others, so in one way equality is related to it.

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Quote from: Tessnik on August 19, 2021, 02:26:52 PM

Marxist as a theory has so many aspects and I think you should view it from the economic point Marxism preach equality of the distribution of the wealth of the state and working class are the major focus here because everyone must pass through a process and everyone is rewarded according to their labor.

Read the room, dude. I guarantee you've come to the wrong place to preach about theoretical upsides to Marxism. This isn't your desired audience. Cheesy

Quote from: Tessnik on August 19, 2021, 02:26:52 PM

the same as bitcoin seek for financial freedom and equal distribution of wealth.

I'd suggest equal distribution of wealth probably isn't considered a fundamental tenet of Bitcoin for most people here.

Tessnik

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Marxist as a theory has so many aspects and I think you should view it from the economic point Marxism preach equality of the distribution of the wealth of the state and working class are the major focus here because everyone must pass through a process and everyone is rewarded according to their labor. Marxism seeks freedom, which is the same as bitcoin seek for financial freedom and equal distribution of wealth.

cr1776

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Quote from: Kong Hey Pakboy on August 19, 2021, 07:57:12 AM

Quote from: cr1776 on August 18, 2021, 04:36:21 PM

Marxism - and socialism, communism, fascism and other authoritarian forms of control - are all based on coercion and force, the opposite of liberty and freedom. Bitcoin requires no compulsion or coercion, everything from mining to running a node to partaking in any transaction is completely voluntary.

No dude, what you're pointing out is the practiced of this stuff besides fascism which is evil. Communism in theory has everyone equal no matter what job you have and everything is distributed equally. You're mad not because of theory but because of application, to be honest I don't think that bitcoin falls in any of those ideology, I think it's just freedom for bitcoin.

I am not mad at all, I just want freedom and forced equality is anti-liberty. I agree that bitcoin doesn't fall in any of those ideologies which was the point - bitcoin is about freedom where anyone involved in bitcoin is there because they want to be, not because someone is forcing them to be.

Communism, socialism and fascism all require the force of government to tell you to do what they want and how they want it. They will take everything from every single person and then "redistribute" it to someone else. It means you do not have the right to the products of your mind or the products of your labor. That is evil and immoral. It was evil when Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Castro, Chavez, Kim Jong-un and all the other authoritarian people who have done so over the millennia imposed their will on people, just as it was evil when the US Democrat party imposed it on the US slaves. It caused hundreds of millions of deaths over the 20th century because someone who is free isn't going to submit to the slavery imposed by fascism, socialism or communism or any other collectivist authoritarian form of government.

Imposed equality and imposed "equity" means that no one is free. Those ideologies are about slavery imposed by an elite group on everyone else.

Kong Hey Pakboy

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Quote from: cr1776 on August 18, 2021, 04:36:21 PM

Marxism - and socialism, communism, fascism and other authoritarian forms of control - are all based on coercion and force, the opposite of liberty and freedom. Bitcoin requires no compulsion or coercion, everything from mining to running a node to partaking in any transaction is completely voluntary.

No dude, what you're pointing out is the practiced of this stuff besides fascism which is evil. Communism in theory has everyone equal no matter what job you have and everything is distributed equally. You're mad not because of theory but because of application, to be honest I don't think that bitcoin falls in any of those ideology, I think it's just freedom for bitcoin.

dkbit98

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Bitcoin didn't kill and torture anyone or put people in concentration camps for reeducation like twisted marxist ideology was doing, so there is nothing that relates this two.
If you didn't want to be marxist or you didn't agree with them you got killed or sent in gulag or chinese camps, and nobody is forcing you to use Bitcoin.
Marxist and all similar ideologies like fascism or globalism want to have full control over every aspect of human lives including money and economy, while fake ''elites'' become richer, regular people are getting more poor and slave-like.
Bitcoin is decentralized, can not be controlled, and there is no single center, ceo or person that want's control everything, so your theory is simply wrong.

Tim-BTC

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Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

what is marxist?

This draws me to the conclusion that Bitcoin was birthed with a Marxist orientation and the is why the capitalist and other centralized government systems hate it because of the financial freedom it offers.

Whether it is capitalism or socialism, it is centralized. As long as it is centralized, it will hate Bitcoin's decentralization.

It can be seen from this that it cannot be said that Bitcoin has Marxism.

Fundamentals Of

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Bitcoin has nothing to do with the struggle between the capitalists and the working class. Bitcoin does not even envision taking over the power of the government, not even the economy.

I think this is simply putting too much insinuations with Bitcoin. What now if Bitcoin is for financial freedom? Is it already Marxist? Are we considered Marxist if we fight for financial freedom?

Bitcoin is just a digital currency which is considered more appropriate to the digital growth of the world.

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Quote from: DooMAD on August 18, 2021, 04:48:03 PM

I certainly don't see any marxism here.

Quote from: just_Alice on August 18, 2021, 06:44:56 PM

I agree with @cr1776, you’re mixing things up here.

Quote from: uneng on August 18, 2021, 06:52:01 PM

Decentralization has nothing to do with Marxism...
In a marxist society you wouldn't own any bitcoins. All your coins would be seized by the communist party or the big brother. Wake up!

I agree, he is wrong and mixes things up. For example:

Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

a capitalist state is more tax oriented

No, in reality pure capitalism, has few taxes, and ancap would tell you that it should tend to 0 taxes. So check your notions because it seems to me that what happens here is that you are a Marxist and then you tend to see everything in your prism, but try to see things from an objective point of view.

uneng

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Decentralization has nothing to do with Marxism. Decentralization respects individual rights, private property, voluntary trading and is based in meritocracy, while marxism goes against all those fundamental principles. Marxism might be against state's opression only on the paper, because in reality it's an opressive mentality making use of the state's power against the individuals of a society, or as they like saying: the ~~sheep~~ people.

In a marxist society you wouldn't own any bitcoins. All your coins would be seized by the communist party or the big brother. Wake up!

just_Alice

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I agree with @cr1776, you’re mixing things up here. Socialism isn’t about freedom, it’s about equity (or, rather, an illusion of it), so Bitcoin is in no way Marxist.

Regarding the “overthrow the government” issue. That’s the major problem of the two sides right now. The governments fear and believe that cryptocurrencies will cause anarchy and try to take control over the situation, while there’s absolutely no need to.

But the crypto community doesn’t have such things in mind, the key idea - is simply gaining more independence and anonymity on the financial front, not overthrowing it! Moreover, many, hopefully, are smart enough to understand that one can’t function without the other, and it would be no benefit to the crypto community to overthrow the current financial system.

DooMAD

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Quote from: Tessnik on August 18, 2021, 04:09:03 PM

if you Look at Bitcoin closely as a decentralized currency that will overthrow the traditional financial system and take total control of the economy

There's a difference between disrupting traditional finance and overthrowing it. If anything, Bitcoin will force traditional finance to adapt and improve. It's probably fair to say that society has a bit of an addiction to debt which isn't getting cured any time soon, so Bitcoin will never completely take over. I certainly don't see any marxism here.

cr1776

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Marxism - and socialism, communism, fascism and other authoritarian forms of control - are all based on coercion and force, the opposite of liberty and freedom. Bitcoin requires no compulsion or coercion, everything from mining to running a node to partaking in any transaction is completely voluntary.

Marxism's/socialism's/communism's/etc ideas are so good that everyone has to be forced to do them (sarcasm). Bitcoin's are so good that everything is voluntary. Use it or don't, it is your choice.

Just to be clear, the capitalists are not the ones wanting to tax and control. Around the world it is the socialists, communists and fascists who don't trust people to make their own decisions and want them controlled. They want a cut of everyone else's income and will use the force of government to obtain it.

Capitalist systems are dependent on voluntary cooperation and voluntary trade. All without any centralized coordination, just free people in free markets taking care of themselves. Marxist systems are based on the point of a gun forcing everyone to act as some centralize authority sees fit.

Tessnik

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what is marxist?
in a simple definition, Marxist is an economic theory that focuses on the struggle between the capitalist and the working class.

The capitalist focused on profit maximization and a capitalist state is more tax oriented and the government generates profits and this system was made popular in the nineteenth century. The government provides services to it, citizens, with the mindset of making profits and not providing social amenities as it responds.

Marxist theory advocate that this class struggle will lead to an economic revolution where the citizens will overthrow the government and take over the economy.

if you Look at Bitcoin closely as a decentralized currency that will overthrow the traditional financial system and take total control of the economy because bitcoin is controlled by the people and not the capitalists whose only interest is how to regulate and tax it, citizens, through the third party centralized institutions.

This draws me to the conclusion that Bitcoin was birthed with a Marxist orientation and the is why the capitalist and other centralized government systems hate it because of the financial freedom it offers.

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