Topic: Bitcoin is not a Ponzi. But sometimes it is marketed like one. (Read 260 times)

Of course. It's only that I'm a bit worried about the proportions between the different hodler groups.

Posts like my OP here are an invitation to reflect a bit, not a war declaration on those wanting simply to profit (these are also important for the Bitcoin incentives to work, but they should not be the only relevant group). If a few people change their mind and begin to investigate about Bitcoin's "real world" advantages, then they have already achieved their goal. It's unlikely that one of the influencers is among them, but if, then even more awesome!

I generally also am optimistic that there could be a trickle in effect. With each generation of users at least some of them could get drawn further into the rabbig hole:

memecoin/NFT gambler -> altcoin trader bro -> bitcoin trader bro -> bitcoin hodler "because scarcity" -> bitcoin hodler/user "because censorship resistance/decentralization".

The goal of these posts is help a bit so the trickle-in accelerates a bit

Problem is that if the speculative use is too dominant, then Bitcoin adversaries like Schaaf/Bindseil from the European Central Bank (See here) have an easier time to trick people into an anti-Bitcoin sentiment.

You can't fix the world.

There will always be people who misunderstand certain things and misuse them. One person will drink beer for its taste, the other to get drunk and fall asleep. It's the same with bitcoin. Most of us know what it's about, but there are certain individuals who only want "lambos" and that's what they live for. They measure you by the clothes you wear and the car you drive and they will go ballistic if you disrespect their way of life and tell them it doesn't matter. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't make them special that they sell bitcoin and buy a stupid plastic car that gets permanently damaged driving over speed bumps, but they'll tell you that they sold stupid bitcoin and bought something they can show to people and pick up chicks with.

Bottom line is, different people have different goals and values. To us holding bitcoin is important, but to someone else it's selling bitcoin and partying.

I'm here not referring to scammers using Bitcoin as a red herring. Instead, what I mean are people like PlanB, who tries to divulge the idea that Bitcoin is basically an asset which can only go up in value. They may talk about decentralization somewhere in their writings too, but their main point is that Bitcoin is valuable only because its supply is limited. These kind of influencers totally forget the demand side (and above all, the use cases which can drive up demand) or try to mis-use the Metcalfe formula in a very trivial way. And basically their point is that Bitcoin needs people to buy in. This is what "critics" then later will exploit and claim Bitcoin is an instrument directed to "greater fools".

Taking myself as an example, the time I knew about Bitcoin was not when I invested into Bitcoin and the reason is actually because I had no concrete idea about it but later when I heard so many different talks about Bitcoin, I decided to attend a free Bitcoin program and free there I learned more essential stuffs about Bitcoin.

I know that everyone is not the same but what I expect people to do is that before they invest their money into any asset or anything at all that they have heard about, they should first do a quality research on that thing. Someone can tell you that if you buy Bitcoin today, you will make quick profit the next day, don't just buy such HYPs but do your own findings.

This is the problem with some influencers since some of then didn't think carefully what implication could bring on the content they are releasing since its common for those people to create certain points that can make people get attracted so that they could get a lot of views on each video they release.

That's why the problem is the after effect of the content, since not everyone would really understand everything what they say and it will just create an assumption that bitcoin is a ponzi scheme since they project it the same as what those people mentioning then end up avoiding this coin. That's why its good that there are someone who will debunk those kind of influencers so that they cannot spread lies and people watching videos online can get a good insights about bitcoin and its real use case.

The look-alike of Bitcoin to ponzi is basically a critic of acknowledged people who are still living in their awkward lives of disagreeing with the possibilities of how someone would buy asset as Bitcoin digitally and still hold it digitally.

So they are more skeptical with the fear that it is a decentralized technology and does not have physical base offices where they should report to when they have issues with their funds hold on Bitcoin.

There are also anti-bitcoineers who are deceitful strictly on the critics of Bitcoin who might probably be some sort of central authorities and entities that had been decided not to support the use of Bitcoin.
Don't be surprise because as time goes then later regrets ever criticized Bitcoin and why they had also be ignorant to early adoption.

Every learned Bitcoin would always tell the background which is the potentials of Bitcoin so if likely anyone would assume that to be marketing strategies, so be it but I don't think if Bitcoin has ever required such a marketing scheme of not speculations of what usefulness it is. I dearly condemns anyone convincing just to adopt Bitcoin.
It is an individual choice to decide and not foreseeing forced as it is not a sole enterprise.

If you ask me, I'll boldy say bitcoin is not marketed because it doesn't need marketing. What is marketed out there is Ponzi like you mentioned too and scams. The internet is full of lies, scammers and wrong information and many newbies tend to fall for these floating information that shouldn't be because practiced. Bitcoin is the top crypto currency in the whole market and ecosystem so it's not surprising to find scammers and Ponzi schemers using it as a leverage.

In quotes, bitcoin is simply freedom and as enthusiasts what we anticipate is for it to be better adopted in currently lagging areas especially in some payments portals. The idea is bitcoin can be used simultaneously as both a seamless payment method and also a simple form of investment however scammers sum this up in a cruel way making it seem like a way to print money easily.

I try to answer you both because your argumentation is similar. And I agree somewhat that the practical relevance of censorship resistance for "normal people" is not that easy to grasp.

But there are two examples for the practical relevance -- of course there are more, but these are two that occur to me now:

- Imagine your country takes an authoritarian turn. This is not fearmongering: it has happened relatively recently in Russia and Venezuela for example. And you have political beliefs opposed to those of the regime. Bitcoin's censorship resistance prevents you from being harassed financially e.g. by banks.

- Imagine you have a non-standard lifestyle. Not a criminal one, mind you. But let's say you are among those people who have difficulties to get accepted by banks and online brokers, at least to acceptable conditions (in many countries people without good securities have to pay more fees). You want some kind of value store where you don't need permission from anyone to "open an account". Censorship resistance means exactly that: nobody can forbid you to open a "Bitcoin account".

Both cases are quite widespread, half of the world's population live in dicatorships, and at least the same amount have inclusion difficulties on the financial system. All those people are potential Bitcoin users and thus also investors. You may say you could also use altcoins. But altcoins are less secure, so Bitcoin is a more "natural" option.

It can be summarized like this: Bitcoin gives you the security to always be able to transfer value without having to ask for permission to anyone. That's a quite unique feature of cryptocurrencies, the only alternatives being cash and some precious metals which are much harder to be used for payments and transfers.

That's what influencers should tell you in a 30 second Tiktok video when they recommend to invest in Bitcoin, just as like they tell you about the nice smartphones Apple produces when recommending to invest in AAPL stocks. It's very simple to understand actually, and you don't need to know the technicalities.

I agree with you about the disservice some influencer paint about bitcoin, they always want to portray bitcoin as a quick money scheme, because they've understand the psychology of human beings, once humans are told about making financial stability in a short while it captures their attention and  they immediately shallow it hook line and sinker without giving it a thought processing time.

Those that take time to explain the processes of bitcoin and how bearish it could be in some seasons and how bullish it can be too, are like lone voices wailing in the wilderness and not given much attention because of how critical they take time to explain this things to the public.

It is like they are like Satoshi who just ride the idea of BTC. it gives them a mysterious aura which they think is cool but is it really? I guess not, because I believe it is still better to share our blessings and educate those who are in need. That should make the world go rounder or makes it a better place.

Those who are popular in social media can also choose to be quiet on some things including BTC even if their niche is about crypto. Also, not all of them prioritize money but they just love what they are doing. Many people actually cares about their privacy, and that is why they hate KYC. BTC is not a secret anymore but I'm afraid a newbie to it will see the false claims of these influencers towards it. We need to counter them if we can.

So many people here in our country understand the profit side of Bitcoin but not the technology behind it when they first invested in Bitcoin, because its easy to promote this to people who cannot grasp the many terms on how Bitcoin works, but they eventually learn it along the way because they have to buy it and they have to store it.
I'm not saying that its good that people look at Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme, but there is a positive side to it, but the downside is they give up easily when they are losing their investment because of the volatility.
There are people who get in through misconceptions about Bitcoin, but they eventually correct it.

I don't like how Bitcoin is promoted as well, therefore I hardly preached about it as an investment. Or if I talked about investment, I'd include the disclaimer as often as possible.
The get-rich-quick thing will be fine as long as it's a bull market, but since, I've already experienced several bear markets, there are many sad stories of people losing everything because of greed. Be it because of scams or bad (leverage) trades.

Bitcoin has gold-like properties, therefore we can somewhat compare it to gold. Not surprisingly, people are doing hard marketing for gold as well. Perhaps the difference is that Bitcoin is relatively new for the boomers, but now most people (IMO) already understand it, so not a problem anymore. They go in and pump because they understand and want to enjoy the ride

Most of those who engage in this practice have one thing or the other in mind, either they want to get the social media followership, engagement or want to fan their ego. It could also be that such people want to launch their own token as I have seen on many occasions. It is never the fault of Bitcoin but that of people trying to cash in on the power and beauty of Bitcoin just like they would do with any decent innovation.

These guys make Bitcoin appear like a get-rich-quick venture and some even claim to be trading Bitcoin thereby asking people to make deposits to receive certain percentages monthly from their profits in the trading. They often end up scamming people from that by using the deposits to pay initially and that will attract more deposits until they meet their target and disappear.

Because people look for quick gains and because bitcoin has been already associated with get-rich-quick themes, the hype stories sell.

In reality, much of the intrinsic values of bitcoin are not understood clearly by most of the users, including myself. I understand what censorship resistance and decentralization are, but it bugs me to counter argue the fact that it sometimes does appear as a bubble which everyone wants to get into.

Of course all the coins have been mined with algorithms and to be in the market, they have been exchanged for fiat money at some point, however this becomes a bit difficult to explain, I am open to anyone correcting me for this though.

The hype for Bitcoin is logically okay when it draws people into the Bitcoin market, helping them invest. However, it becomes unacceptable if the people hyping it have an ulterior motive, such as promoting a specific Bitcoin or scheme, essentially turning it into a Ponzi game.

So, I see it in two directions. If the hype brings more investors, the value of Bitcoin increases, and the market grows because people are hearing more about it through hype and discussions, and they are investing; companies are investing in it, then it's for the good. But when someone talks about Bitcoin solely to encourage people to make specific investments that profit them, that's when it becomes an issue.

So, it's a two-way thing; it depends on how an individual decides to see it and how they react to it. Because the hype has helped the Bitcoin industry grow; it grows with hype, influenced by how people place value on it.

You are right. However, what they say becomes true for people listening to them because Bitcoin keeps going up over time as the demand increases, which strengthens the beliefs of those who follow those influencers.


To be honest, the potential price increase is also why industrial investors buy Bitcoin. They barely care about its decentralization, security, or other things it has to offer because they don't need these things. They are completely okay with the centralized ecosystems, but they are buying Bitcoin in large quantities because they know they are going to benefit from it in the long run.

So it's not only a large percentage of individual investors who are into Bitcoin only for potential profits but also companies and even nations.


If we think logically, the narrative doesn't harm Bitcoin as a whole, but it actually helps it grow over time. I also believe that somehow, some of the people who get into Bitcoin only for profits convert to becoming people who start liking the technology from a different perspective, a perspective which makes them understand what it was created for in the first place.

The people, who are saying "buy Bitcoin because it's scarce and the price will go up" aren't completely wrong. BTC isn't a ponzi, but it's pretty similar to a giant financial bubble.
All the other qualities of Bitcoin that you have mentioned(like censorship resistance) can be found in privacy coins like Monero. Bitcoin has intrinsic value, but that doesn't change the fact that BTC might just be a giant bubble(which isn't a bad thing). Imagine a world without Bitcoin. Everything would be pretty much the same and the people could live their lives without BTC. The fact of the matter is Bitcoin doesn't add that much in terms of utility to our daily lives. BTC is just "digital gold" and most investors simply want to buy low and sell high(and there's nothing wrong with this).

Hype from some influencers who treat Bitcoin as a "get-rich-quick" asset can harm Bitcoin's reputation. Critics who are calling it a Ponzi often look past growing adoption, like spot Bitcoin ETFs gaining momentum, and the fact that institutions like MicroStrategy are continuing to heavily invest in it, a nod to recognition as a legitimate asset.

Yet, the tendency of overemphasizing price increases by these influencers is bound to create a "bubble-like" perception. That narrative overrides Bitcoin's real-world applications, including financial inclusion and cross border transactions, particularly in countries with unsteadfast fiat systems. It is much better to educate the public on Bitcoin utility rather than its price trajectory. This could be far more effective against critics than playing right into the speculative frame of mind for which they are trying to tear it down.

That's a problematic approach but they're giving the thought why the price would go up and even indirectly saying that the demand will go up and why everyone is buying it, there's the reason why people and nation does that. The real problem there is about guaranteeing who invests on Bitcoin that they'll be rich as soon as they buy it. I always tell people that asks me about whether they should buy or not, learn first the basics about supply and demand and get to know how volatility works because I am not able to control the prices and so the other traders and holders in the market. But there's a change of narrative here, before, the impression about Bitcoin was really a ponzi but eventually it has changed thanks to the mainstream media and institutions. So, I think soon, this worry and approach will change as well.

How does a product gain popularity and attract investors? Often, it is through hype that people become aware of it and develop an interest. This same principle applies to Bitcoin.

Many people learn about Bitcoin from influencers or friends who highlight its potential for high returns. This positive messaging got their interest. However, over time, as they make mistakes in their investments, they begin to understand how the crypto market works and what it takes to be a successful investor.

Most investors in crypto will admit that they started their crypto investment journey on the wrong note by following the advice of influencers who promised quick wealth through Bitcoin. Initially, this ideology seemed appealing to them, but as time went on, they realized it was misleading information they heard from influencers. Bitcoin is better understood as a long-term investment, rather than a quick-profit scheme.

Most of the people who believe in the true benefits of Bitcoin (decentralization and censorship resistance) choose to remain anonymous. We don't hear much from such people because they are not popular on social media. These influencers are not social workers, they are online mainly for money. For them to get the needed attention that will make profit they will have to tell the people what they want to hear. People don't care about privacy, almost everyone is focusing on money and these influencers have to promote Bitcoin as a "Ponzi scheme".

If you check the internet, you will see that most people who give a balanced or comprehensive lesson about Bitcoin always have low followership. There are just a few good teachers that have many subscribers or followers.

But we all have a role to play in sharing the true message of Bitcoin. In our own small corners and social media platforms people shouldn't know that Bitcoin is much more than a profit-making asset.

That's why they are influencers. Their duty is to sweet talk the public into making decisions that on a normal day would require proper research but just like you said, some big investors don't have the time to go through the rigours of a boring research and instead prefer to rely on these interesting pitches thrown by these influencers.
 Of course, you can't do anything without the possibility of having profit that's why since they know it's how well they deliver is what determines their pay, they'd add so much spice to their contents to ensure it reaches the desired audience and excites them enough to want to participate. I mean, who would pass up on an idea of getting rich from taking advantage of the bullish price of Bitcoin?

These influencers did mention if Bitcoin is decentralized, censorship resistance, anonymous pseudonymous etc, but it's just come from their mouth, not necessary they understand what they talk about. It's because when they show their Bitcoin, instead of showing their hardware wallet or non custodial wallet, they show their balance in centralized exchanges and never talk about no KYC P2P.

So, what's actually the point for mentioning these Bitcoin's value when they're the one who kill it?

Of course there will always be a large group of Bitcoin investors which will be only in "because of the money". In the case of stocks and derivatives, we have the same situation.

However I think in the case of Bitcoin this group is disproportionally large. Many people for example hold Apple stocks because they like Apple as a brand, and they know approximately the products Apple produces and why they could justify the high price of Apple's stocks.

In the case of Bitcoin, we have of course the diehard believers and cypherpunks who understand everything, but this group is very small, perhaps 1%. Then we have a "somewhat informed" group, but I think it's only 10% or so. And even in this group, the belief for example that Bitcoin's value lies mainly in its "scarcity", the fixed 21 million supply, is widespread. This is however not the main USP, because there are now thousands of altcoins with an even more limited supply, e.g. all the "100% premined" coins.

I also don't think it is needed that every influencer / writer / forum member should educate investors thoroughly about Bitcoin's philosophy. If they do, it's awesome. But I'd recommend even influencers whose target group are "trader bros" to mention at least the basics about decentralization (no central middleman) and censorship resistance, so their readers/listeners actually know what they're investing in. That can be explained in a 30 second TikTok video.

No influencer comes up and say what doesn’t benefit them, they’re all having their own returns by presenting one side of the market to people and let them invest in them. They’re smart in the space and make their money through conniving to mislead beginners in the space. It is easy to convince newbies to join in the hype when the bulls have set in than when the market is still fluctuating.


How bitcoin is designed does not need to be blamed on others for one’s mistake. Newbies are often getting trapped always when it comes to this, they’re so naive that they’re so focused on making quick money without researching first on what they’re trying to put their money into, whether legit or not, they just want to make quick money. Influencers easily take advantage of that and keep milking them. DYOR is important for newbies also as it serve as a readiness sign for all newbies.

These influencers mostly show up when the market is bullish, they know it’s easier to convince people to buy during the hype. I’m not sure about their exact reasons, but they’re likely benefiting in some way. It could be promoting their channel to gain followers or viewers, basically taking advantage of the situation.

But You know, potential investors don’t want to hear about the boring technical aspects and the risks involved in investing in Bitcoin. Influencers often present only one-sided narrative focusing only on the positives. In the end, though, it’s up to us as investors. We need to stick to DYOR to avoid blaming others if things go wrong.

If i may get this more clearer, what is needed here is in the understanding of what differentiates a critics from a bitcoin influencer, these are two different things and they all have their different meanings as well as their impact over the market, critics will not invest and also join towards discouraging others from investing, while influencers are not aimed at giving the wring information, but working to do their job in a more professional manner that could drive in more users without considering the effect of doing so, as long as they are being paid, but we should rather be more concerned on who are the sponsors to those influencers and knowing if they are the good or bad people.


A reasonable person in crypto will understand that it's a decentralized digital currency, this alone talked about many things which we are expected to know of it, secondly, we also make more emphasis on DYOR, how many are working on that before making any decision from what they heard other people say.

Not everyone has a technical/philosophical understanding of how Bitcoin (blockchain) works, but everyone wants profit for sure, and these so-called influencers take advantage of this. This is so prevalent in meme-coin trading. As awareness about technical aspects of Bitcoin grows, these things will diminish, but nothing we can do about it, as sometimes even lazy, greedy investors do not bother to look into the technicalities of a project.
I think this assumption is  100% true.  . Nation wide Bitcoin FOMO is going to be next big phenomenon soon. 

I think most people in this community know that Bitcoin does have intrinsic value. The level of security, decentralization and censorship resistance of the Bitcoin network is unparalelled by other kinds of "money". And Bitcoin's value/price is, in theory, only showing people's desire to use this network to benefit from these qualities.

So those critics saying that Bitcoin has Ponzi-like qualities are simply wrong, period.

However, I am worried about some influencers who do market Bitcoin like if it was some kind of HYIP scheme, perhaps not directly a Ponzi (because there is still no central entity benefitting), but a bubblish asset with no real value which happens to go up in price because people/entities/businesses are buying it.

Their story is approximately this one: Buy Bitcoin now! It can only go up because its supply is limited and others are buying it too. Companies and even nation states will enter the market, and you soon will be rich. Don't be late!

In short, they focus only on the potential price increase, not on the intrinsic value. Okay, maybe something like "censorship resistance" is nerdish and perhaps even unpopular (because some still believe the "Bitcoin is for criminals" lie).

But the problem is that with this narrative predominating, nobody knows why Bitcoin's price should go up, i.e. why people should be buying it. If this "why" can only be answered by "because it goes up", this benefits the critics who (pretend to [1]) argument that Bitcoin is a Ponzi or that it has no intrinsic value.

What do you think? Is this narrative problematic? Or do we need it to drive more people into Bitcoin? Discuss!

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[1] I often distrust the critics who sustain the Ponzi theory. Their real problem may be instead that they, in reality, don't like the censorship resistance aspect and support tight government control over money.