Topic: BITCOIN IS NOT A STORE OF VALUE (Read 958 times)

Miners do not get paid to give us permission to do a transaction, they are rewarded for solving some complex algorithm so they would protect the ledger of bitcoin network. That's the difference, and as a person who has been a miner for a long time you should know it. We could process the transaction with literally just one computer open, just make a huge block and that computer alone could do it, hell we deal with billions, even trillions of dollars on banking system with just a server system, powerful but still centralized.

The difference is that miners get paid to make sure that bitcoin is running as well as it is and harder to crack, this makes sure that you are not getting permission, you are paying to feel at ease that your money is safe.

I think BTC is not just a hedge against the stock market. For current conditions, Yes, When the economy is down, people will flock to buy gold to protect their wealth buying gold and silver to protect themselves from inflation so Demand will soar and it can become very difficult to find an ounce of gold to buy.

The world would not work without the elements that make it up. Bitcoin is a new idea as important as gold and silver. even with all the hype around it. In my opinion, Bitcoin will be the main cryptocurrency on earth in the future. It requires no trust and is easy to use.

I agree with you in the sense that Bitcoin is a wonderful thing. If we imagine a world crisis, Gold tends to be the reserve of many people. However, Bitcoin has been proving to be an even better reserve, both in terms of transacting and storing!

After all, there is nothing wrong with what you say. To be fair, bitcoin's future is uncertain, in terms of its safety not comparable to gold or older assets. But bitcoin is a wonderful invention that we have today, you won't find another tool or a convenient store of assets like bitcoin, or it can be used as an instant means of cross-border payments...It can be seen that the benefits that bitcoin brings over gold or fiat are indisputable.

We still live in a world where the government is still the one that controls everything, so it's really impossible to fight them if they want to. But we still have the right to hope because all governments don't think alike. USD used to be the dominant currency in the world but now many countries are also starting to refuse to use it and find ways to create a different monetary system. It will take a long time to do that, it will probably fail, but it shows that governments are not all the same. So we still have hope with bitcoin, things can change as people's needs change.

firstly.. bitcoin has been running constantly 24/7 for 13 years 9months

secondly Store of value does not need to function 24/7.. banks only operate during business hours. ATM's fail run out of money all the time..
banks have had many issues and outages..

as for me not having electric..
well ive never had a brownout-blackout and so not been affected. if i was id use my phone as that has a battery or id to a neighbour..

if you think gold "has to function" for trade 24/7 in your home.. you are not realising people do not trade gold in YOUR home. they trade it in multiple places... same goes for bitcoin.

my home internet has nothing to do with bitcoins store of value.

for there to a a global electric and internet switch off/blackout.. i dont think people would be caring much about bitcoin. they would be more worried about the nuclear bombs or the asteroids that went off to cause such a mega electromagnetic pulse..

so although you want to cry about catastrophe level things. your just fantasizing.

if you want to talk about local problems. there are solutions

heck if there was a electric blackout of just a town level.. well banks and retailers of fiat will have the same problem.
pawn brokers wont be able to open their time release vaults to get to their gold. so gold trades would be hit too

i could go on but i thought it was all common sense and didnt need explaining..

I believe the OP is missing something here Gold, silver, and copper a piece of industrial equipment for electrical devices while Bitcoin is not, doesn't mean Bitcoin is not stored of value.
The industrial uses of something it been a store of value are totally different.
For the record, every commodity or asset with utility that can be traded in the hereafter without degenerating in worth is considered a store of value.

The argument that Bitcoin cannot replace gold because computers and cell phones are made of gold is, to say the least, misguided. Any mobile phone has many other metals besides gold (about 0.3 grams). For example Coltan, among many others.
I have NO DOUBT that Bitcoin will surpass the market capitalization of gold in the next 5 years.

You failed to answer my question or to even acknowledge if your power or internet ceases to function (for whatever reason), what then is bitcoin? What's wrong that you can't answer this question?
I'll reiterate in case you forgot. A STORE OF VALUE needs to be functional 100% of the time - otherwise it's NOT a store of value.
The physical gold in my possession doesn't rely on a miner, an ISP, or a power company for me to complete a transaction. However, if you are without even 1 of those things your bitcoin is then WORTHLESS. What then is a store of value? It's hard to accept the truth sometimes, and the truth is you might not always have power, you might not always have internet, and miners might not take your transaction... You are reliant, there's risks. Gold doesn't suffer from risks, you cannot and will not convince me otherwise.

In response to your response to my response...

1. If we are comparing apples to oranges, bitcoin mining consumes 150 terawatt-hours of electricity annually at the current rate, looking into the future as mining becomes more difficult, this will lead to an increase in carbon emissions and ever increasing TWh use - bitcoin will continue burning more fossil fuels than gold mining operations combined, and will do so every single year without decline. Leading to a much more destructive pattern than gold on the environment. Gold doesn't require a network backbone to function, whereas bitcoin does. Therefore and by extension, bitcoin will always remain energy intensive and reliant on something else in order to function, and will always be REQUIRED to sustain. Cross 1 off your list. Diesel is not required (fixed your spelling mistake). It's being used today for convenience and efficiency. Diesel didn't exist until roughly the turn of the 19th century, therefore diesel is not and was never required - it's optional.

2. Roads and transport are used to deliver products, are you telling me that without roads and transport people wouldn't be able to use their gold? Oh my, I wonder how the Ancient Egyptians or countless civilizations managed without your brilliant insight and their cars 7,000 years ago to be able to transport or use gold... Cross 2 off your list. Roads weren't around 7,000 years ago... Again, not required - optional.

3. Again, mining gold can be done without these methods and without much of a carbon footprint as seen with historical mining, although much less efficiently - long before diesel existed... There's no way around burning fossil fuels to mine bitcoin, and as stated before will require increasing amounts of energy consumption to sustain... No. Way. Around. It... Gold doesn't require any of these things, it's a matter of convenience and efficiency. Cross 3 off your list.

What then are we left with.......

4. Buyer - required.
5. Seller - required.

Congratulations on wasting your time and mine, as well as the electricity and calories for my laptop and body to respond. Like bitcoin, your off to great start at not being more efficient.


- What exactly did you fix?
- The way I see this is I have to keep on 'schooling' you for free - I'm a nice guy like that... On the other hand I'm not volunteering to repay your student loan debt because you decided to not pay attention to all the warning signs. This time a freebie, next time will cost you.


- Bitcoin is all done online it doesn't ask questions - however the exchange(s) ALWAYS ask, there is an entry point and exit point, there is a PUBLIC LEDGER of all your transactions, there are numerous exploits that the general public is unaware of, underlying flaws that you conveniently continue to overlook or fail to mention. Have you ever heard of a company called chainalysis? They work with the Feds to find out who owns the wallets that have illicit proceeds, as does the IRS.... Are you being intentionally evasive to the facts?... are you unaware that AML/KYC laws shadow the crypto space today? Walk into any coin shop or precious metals dealer and they make it their mission to protect your identity, they make it a point to not ask questions.

- You were probably one of the same people back when it first started that was yelling from the rooftops "the government can't track you, it's used by criminals", "it's decentralized", "it can't be hacked", "you can't be taxed", "you can be traced"... Even with VPN's the NSA can EASILY and quickly find out exactly who owns what wallets by monitoring and decrypting internet traffic, mostly done using AI. And just as easily empty your online wallet as easy as the patriot act gave them the ability to freeze and seize your bank account... How are you not keeping up with this, or are those bitcoin blinders causing tunnel vision?

- One thing I noticed is that you, as well as many others here are completely biased or not as educated on the subject as you're leading the viewing public to believe. Causing more confusion and chaos than it's ultimately worth.

- And lastly responding to your comment... I really don't see how terrorism is relevant or ties into what is a store of value.


- I challenge you to look through any electronic device your holding or using that connects to the internet for what is known as a MAC address (Media Access Control address) - I bet you will find it because every piece of hardware that connects to the internet has one, and that's all the info the government or bad actor needs to tie an identity to you, to figure out who that wallet(s) belong(s) to, and to just as easily see your other crypto and banking holdings, as well as any and all internet activity.

Please try to keep up... Hint: Your MAC address narrowed down to your IP address (Internet Protocol address), narrowed down to the make and model of your device, narrowed down to your internet or phone service provider (who also has all your personal identifiable information), narrowed down to your exact GPS location (within 3 feet), narrowed down to name and all known aliases, address(es), birth date, social security number, bank account(s) (which also have all your personal information on file), complete profile of you, your porn preferences, crypto wallet holdings, all transactions to and from your bitcoin wallet, all known associates and name of customer with internet service - YOU, and by extension leaving a permanent online paper trail of everything you ever did online. Wow, you didn't give your name... Congratulations, you are starting to test my patience for stupidity.

- Wanna know how I know you are wrong and don't really know what you're talking about? I was arrested by the FBI, NSA, DHS, Secret Service, US Marshals, local and state police departments for operating an online business single handedly hacking cable modems and giving users on a global scale free untraceable internet access as well as gaming console and numerous FTA exploits... So please forgive me for pointing out my experience on this as this is my field of expertise. Crypto can be taken away from you without a moments notice at the stroke of a key, it's happened to many people already, and also to people with all the technical know how to store their coins from prying eyes... It maybe hasn't happened to you (yet), but if and when it does will you still be singing the same song and dance as you are now when your wallets get emptied? You might not take my word for it, but what about John McAfee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syI9X_uKvUA

Is he crazy, he also doesn't know what hes talking about? What I wanna know is what experience or credentials do you have to be educating someone on the intricacies of online digital currencies or stores of value?


- Gold is STORED in vaults, it's not at all reliant on a vault to function... Without vaults gold has the same utility as it always has, it doesn't RELY on anything except the buyer and seller... use your brain man... KYC is now blanketed across the entire crypto space for ANY amount purchased in bitcoin. You are automatically being tracked. Gold is hand to hand person to person. Yes, there is a degree of KYC with gold when done ONLINE, but generally only applies to amounts that exceed $10,000. Globally, I can offer to buy something using gold and 9 times out of 10 they will accept it on the spot without asking me where I got it, or who I am. Bitcoin on the other hand is not so forgiving since there is a permanent online paper trail leading back to you.
-You mean to tell me that without pawn shops or merchants that gold would just cease to function as a medium of exchange store of value, unit of account, and all the other necessary properties to fall into the category of MONEY? All due respect but thousands of years of history, and every collapse known to man contradicts your statements, it's managed to endure to this point and retain as a store of value... Without the need for a handheld device... 100% anonymous and untraceable. If you even bring up serial numbers I'm gonna e-smack you... gold can be melted down, and nobody would be the wiser of where it came from or who owned it before you. bitcoin on the other hand... public ledger!


- Exactly my point. They DO NOT have to process your transactions, miners are REQUIRED in order for confirmations to be completed for a transaction to go completely through. Without a miner to process your transaction you are SOL. I use to be a big bitcoin miner, trust me on this. No way around or out of a miner to process ALL transactions. If that's necessary, since when does a store of value require the need for a third party to process a transaction? It never did before. What I see is man creating another problem without a solution. Imagine back when gold was first discovered how ridiculous it would sound to "ask" the government permission to buy or sell something using gold and then give them a small cut for them allowing you, that' just crazy. And that's essentially what miners can do... They don't like the fee you pay, they can deny your transaction, and you're left in shits creek with just oars and no boat... No store of value.



I can't keep explaining all the different ways that you are incorrect about this, it's wasting my time - that's why I stopped after the miner comment. I think I made my point. I am willing to bet you've never actually held an ounce of gold in your hands so to speak about it is a disservice to everyone viewing this nonsense. Bitcoin is fragile and reliant on a system that is collapsing... Can you guarantee that your power or internet will be on tomorrow? Exactly. And while you're at it, try rewording Article 1 Section 10 of the USC to telling people that instead of gold and silver to repay debts, bitcoin is then rebranded from currency to money. Good luck let us know how that works out.

All I really see here on these boards is random people without any technical knowledge putting their $0.02 in and blatantly spreading misinformation that is potentially damaging to an individual person from gaining a proper perspective and accurate education on these topics. And most likely will one day lead to great loss of a persons time. It's refreshing to see that attempting to teach rocket science to penguins is about as useful as trying to reason with people here. The truth is you simply lack the understanding to comprehend what an actual store of value is. This is the last post I make about this.

fixed that for you

as for bitcoin
bitcoin does not ask for your name or if you are a terrorist
i challenge you to look at any transaction on the blockchain. any block header.. and show me where it includes peoples birth names/ geo location and what they are buying... hint: you wont find it

gold relies on vaults, pawnbrokers and gold merchants.
you do know that BUSINESSES that facilitate trade(of both gold and bitcoin) do ask for KYC. but the currency (bitcoin/gold) does not

bitcoin miners are self contained in their work. they are incentivised by block rewards mainly. they are not reliant on transactions. yep they can make blocks without any transactions in it and still get their reward.

bitcoin users storing bitcoin. need to do nothing. but keep their private key safe. they can go years without looking on the internet and know their private key will still work where they can spend their funds later
they do not need to be online 24/7 just to keep their funds safe

trying to keep gold safe is more intensive and requires more effort.

oh .. and also think about the logistics involved and the costs to move gold cross the planet within 10 minutes..

yes gold has utility in local hand to hand transactions.. but when it comes to international transactions. gold fails the utility tests

If your electric has gone out for nonpayment of the bill, or because of rampant runaway inflation, or because of some other unforseen event (as demonstrated in so many countries GLOBALLY) where's the store of value?
What good is a store of value that cannot be used?
If your internet goes down, where's the store of value?
If ISP's/phone providers choose to block certain MAC addresses, who has stores of value and who are the unlucky ones?

The point I'm trying to make is that an ACTUAL STORE OF VALUE needs to be accessible 100% of the time for utilization, and not just some of the time.

You cannot guarantee the power grid will be here tomorrow, nor can you guarantee that your internet will be working when you want it to, nor can you guarantee that the mining farms will stay decentralized, nor can you guarantee that a miner will process your transaction when you need them to...

A STORE OF VALUE is NOT reliant on more than 2 things to function properly;

1. The Buyer.
2. The Seller.

That's it. Gold and Silver were chosen because they are perfect for fulfilling that role, without any FLAWS, without any downtime or reliance on anything else. Nothing will ever replace them, people have tried, and have always failed.

bitcoin on the other hand REQUIRES;

1. Electrical grids.
2. Internet Service Providers.
3. Miners to process your transaction.
4. AML/KYC.
5. Buyer.
6. Seller.

And that's not even counting all the exploits that exist that are unknown to you, anything digital can be easily stolen, hacked, confiscated, seized, etc... I prefer my store of value to be physical, that works irregardless of power or internet outages, government having the ability to track what I'm doing, or some kid in his garage with a laptop that can empty my wallet without my say so... That's NOT a store of value. It has FLAWS. Plain and simple.

I can't believe you people are this naive - it's been around less than 20 years and your so certain of it's future, based on what exactly? That it's flawless?.... Hardly. Not even close to a store of value imho.

I can guarantee gold and silver will be working 24/7 and will never rely on anything besides the buyer and seller. That's the hard to swallow truth of the matter. Gold and Silver have been here since the beginning of time and will be around until the end of time. Can the same be said for bitcoin, or any other cryptocurrecy?

I totally agree with what you just said, because the gold and silver we all refer as store of value today was given that preference due to the fact that they are scarce, durable, divisible and generally accepted, of which people saw that it could be use as a medium of exchange, of which Bitcoin today also has same qualities of been scarce, durable, divisible and generally accepted as a stors of value and means of exchange. So why can't it be called "Store of value" when they all has almost same qualities?

You example of store of value does not convince me. Computers, phones, and all these stuff aren't stored of value.
When you say store of value, do you mean that the prices of that "Store of value" does not dump ?

Gold is a store of value, and we may see fluctuation in its prices too. Bitcoin is also a store of value, though it is at a very early stage and therefore it has a lot of volatility.

three things regulators can do if certain things align change or are pushed.. (worse case scenario

so lets get real
they can tell their regulated bitcoin BUSINESSES (exchanges) to stop servicing BTC much like you see american exchanges like coinbase not list monero

if bitcoin was regulated by CFTC(commodity regulator) then extra regulations become applicable where environmental concerns are allowed to limit/prohibit things. such as asking power companies to not service large electric using industries if the power companies are fossil based. this can impact mining farms.
(CFTC coverage also causes limitations on many commodities like environmental impacts of cattle farming and fertiliser use on crop farming)

corporations that employ the main bitcoin devs with merge/commit/maintainer privileges of bitcoin core can have their employers pushed to push their employees to develop new forks that are doing different algo's/features and functions that regulators want

but here is the thing. even if regulators push for a fork and make exchanges in america only list the fork as "btc". the community could rally around a campaign to just stop using those exchanges and declare those exchanges as fake bitcoin traders. losing exchanges money  via less customer use

yes it could make bitcoin take a few steps backwards in its growth and have to then popularise the exchanges that are not US regulated. much like when MTGox disapeared it took a while for people to trust other exchanges as the main price discovery sites.

but thats all just temporary drama of yet another fork yet another mining farm location shift and yet another change of the most popular exchanges to use as price discovery

bitcoin experienced all these sort of games in the past, brand stealing, forks mining bans and exchange popularity shifts.. and bitcoin still remains

but with al that said. there are many things to do before any of that happens to mitigate the drama, minimise the impact and even prevent the risk of there being any attempt/effort to push those regulators into doing anything



you are confusing value vs price
the store of value does not follow price. they are separate measures

SOV is a amount BELOW the market bottom. its the no-mans land of trading where no one trades below. but its not a daily change figure. its a long term milestone amount.
so while the price jumps around daily, the store of value amount sits below that healthily and slowly rises per quarter-year

al assets have a SoV amount. but like i just said none of the SoV amounts are the price..

lets use gold
the SoV amount is ~$900 and the market price is $1700
SoV is ~53% of price

ethereumPoS has a SoV of $35 and its market price is $1300
Sov is ~2.7% of price

bitcoin has a SoV of ~$15k and the price today is $19k
Sov is ~ 79%
..
bitcoin at its current price allows people buying to store more of their wealth than if they bought gold

yes try to avoid buying bitcoin when the price is high.. but thats common sense
buy low sell high. dont buy high sell low.

no where in history has store of value ever meant that it stores all of price as value and locks in that value to never lose anyone any value when they buy an asset
no where no time no asset has ever made that promise and neither has SoV concept meant every cent of peoples purchase is locked in and saved/secured

prices always change so SoV has never been the price amount
SoV is about have a non zero 'bottom' no one sells below thus protecting a certain % of peoples buy price

if the price is low and closer to its SoV then that is called GREAT VALUE

yep when the price goes down its good to then buy because the percentage of your buy is protected more due to being close to great value thus locking in more of your value

when the price is high.. thats the speculative bubble. and not a good time to buy less of your wealth is protected

bitcoin. or any assets VALUE is NEVER i repeat NEVER sat at the ATH. value is ALWAYS sat at the LOW

when the price corrects after the bubble ATH the correction down is not "losing value" its infact the price returning to great value prices where people can protect more of their wealth

Fortunately I don't have to do that, because as you can see I managed to decentralize the debunking. 

Bitcoin is more than an empty number.
The value is in the rights and opportunities it opens for you to purchase goods and services to improve your life.

A token is like the entree ticket for an entertainment parc. You already paid but the value is in the experience when you hand over the ticket.

I can write the number 1 on a piece of paper 100 times and declare it to be money. The value will only go up when more people acknowledge
the value of the paper and start using it for trading.

It's amazing the level of bias from the members on these boards. You are all on a shared delusion. How long has bitcoin existed? Has it existed more than 100 years? 200 years? How long have you been alive?

Case and point gold and silver were here long before, and will be here long after both you, and bitcoin (the man made invention) are gone.

Governments can and will squash it if they want and there's no amount of arguing that will save it from becoming put under so much regulation that nobody will use it.

Store of value doesn't shed 40% of it's value... That's indicative of a ponzi scheme. How about lets talk about the trading bots that ultimately control the market, or am I a conspiracy theorist for pointing this out?

I expect completely biased individuals to jump in and try to rationalize all the ways that I'm supposedly wrong. But the fact is you all cannot argue with history, and what world banks and governments are stockpiling. Don't forget, they can blow you up, at that point your monetary pipe dream theories all go out the window.

The value of gold and silver wouldn't exist, or at least wouldn't matter, if there were no humans reasoning about what to consider valuable. To put it another way, value is always a matter of subjective thinking of every single individual. Bitcoin has certain credible characteristics because some individuals decided it is worth mining it and holding, and vice versa, some individuals think it is valuable because it has those credible characteristics. It is the self-reinforcing positive feedback loop that influences the minds of all people: those who already understood bitcoin's value proposition and those who aren't yet. In my subjective opinion, bitcoin is a store of value because its monetary properties meet the definition of "good" money, but also, which is more important, historical data clearly shows that it behaves like a good store of value. This opinion is based on observable facts, not feelings or beliefs, and for these reasons, many rational economic actors also consider bitcoin a reliable store of value. Bitcoin being a store of wealth is not a shared illusion, it is a logical conclusion from all factors related to bitcoin.

I strongly believe you might be tricked in believing and making such comment about Bitcoin and I also believe you have no idea Bitcoin being tagged the "digital gold". Now tell me if it could be tagged such a name then why can't it have value?. As it may please you to know that Bitcoin is now a global phenomenon and has gained recognition more than you are. I strongly advise you do research properly before jumping to conclusion and even making comments which you are not sure of.

Maybe he has been influenced by the videos that are made and uploaded to social media or someone else has influenced him and maybe he starts to have a little doubt about Bitcoin and Cryptocurrencies.


Actually this is their ultimate goal, and everyone who doesn't like Bitcoin even they hate it and this is one way to influence people who are new to Bitcoin to follow their directions not to like Bitcoin.
actually what is on their mind people who hate Bitcoin, Maybe they don't learn about Bitcoin.

The store of value means an item acquired should, over time, either be worth the same or more. Some people think bitcoin will be the global store of value. Others think it's a kinda myth. Whatever it's, in my opinion, bitcoin in the hands of the right person can do amazing things. Have programmers and cryptographers who can use bitcoins underlying protocol to create magnificent things such as crypto currencies. So what gives bitcoin value depends on your qualifications.

Bitcoin has multiple utilities and store of value is one of its utilities.

If a person owns Bitcoin, then that person can use it for many purposes: investing, trading, payment method for grocery, merchant shopping and so on. Sometimes, because of many use cases the person will not clearly clarify what he uses Bitcoin for. Utility creates value and Bitcoin has it. Deflationary creates value and Bitcoin has it too.

Even if we accept Bitcoin as a store of value or disagree with this statement, fact is fact and people naturally use Bitcoin in their own ways. Some consider and use it as a store of value. Some others don't but in general, Bitcoin adoption is increasing that is good for Bitcoin investors.

Well, Bitcoin is a currency, like fiat currency where you can use to purchase a service or a product. Bitcoin became a store of value as people discovered how fairly volatile Bitcoin is in a long term perspective.
Whether you like it or not, Bitcoin has it's own value not as much as Gold's market cap, but it has value.
No reason for a debate or an argument here. Bitcoin is simply the digital gold.

I also think the same as you, maybe he just listened to the video and was influenced by what was said in the video, I think they made the video to make bad news about Bitcoin because he doesn't like the existence of Bitcoin. I do not understand what was in his mind, so he thought too far before Bitcoin was created, I think this is just a classic joke who wants to bring Bitcoin down.

We have seen the popularity of Bitcoin increasing day by day. Maybe a time will come when people will conduct all transactions in this Bitcoin.Gold, silver and all metals people may stop investing in them for a while, but no one can move away from Bitcoin.Very soon we will see more popularity of Bitcoin and editcoin will be valid in every country.The existence of Bitcoin will never be destroyed but rather its existence will be more spread out.

Hi,what do you think about the early merge mined altcoins like namecoin and i0coin and future values/usecases?How do you see Ixcoin doing in the near future or is it worth buying?Thanks.

He was merely making a debate that a commodity's utility as a value proposition is what's giving it its value, therefore making it an ideal Store of Value. Bitcoin has its own value proposition too. Censorship-resistance. It's what's giving it it's utility as an ideal Store of Value for the internet. Bitcoin as a Store of Value has its pros and it's better than their Gold, their Silver, or their other valuable metals like Platinum as an unseizable form of money.

This analysis has a fundamental flaw: marginal analysis. It was proposed by Carl Menger and it explains why essential materials to life as oxygen, or water (the chemical combination of oxygen and hydrogen), has none or almost no economic value, meanwhile things that are apparently superfluous cost a lot of money.

Gold and silver are industrial materials. Gold used to be a monetary store of value, but electronic devices it’s turning it into an industrial raw material. So, as it already happened to silver, gold is losing its monetary store of value status gradually.

It has happened along history with materials that traditionally had both, an industrial and a monetary value, with time, they gave up its monetary value in favor of other things that had no real other use. It is frequently heard the argument, “why this or that should cost so much money? It has no use!” The explanation is marginal analysis.

Bitcoin has no other use but storing value or using it as medium of exchange (much more with second layer protocols). So, Bitcoin although it has been created artificially, cannot be corrupted, it is scarce, fungible, divisible, and has all the properties to become the perfect money and store of value.

Now it needs time for everyone to realize this is its intrinsic value to become generalized used as such. The same happened to many other things used as money along history. Nothing becomes money right away on a clap of the hands. It’s an evolution. BTC has barely 13 years. Nevertheless, it is quite astonishing how fast it has already been adopted by many.

Of course, if we do not have electricity, computers, or electronic devices, BTC might not lose its value: it would just disappear. But in that case, BTC will not be your concern. Do you think life as we know it is sustainable without computers, modern communications, and electronic devices? 500 million people over the crust of the Earth would be barely viable. If you’re not within the globalist elite, don’t count yourself between the survivors. As it would be the case if all of a sudden we hadn’t oxygen, which has no economic value, you wouldn’t need to worry about BTC anymore. You wouldn’t need to worry about anything at all. At some point, it will be the case of absolutely everyone, when death knocks on our door, even for those who have risen to the high ranks of the global elites.

Yeah, not all electronics are made of silver or gold because that was too expensive already but some do only need other components and they can still be able to work fine. Btc is a digital currency so it doesn't have a physical form although there are some btc fan boys who are minting a physical coin with a btc logo on it and then they engrave private keys there or maybe some kind of a qr code for it to work like a physical version of btc.

I think the op is saying that btc should give credits to gold and silver because if not because of them, there will also be no btc but I think the title of his thread is different but anyway I disagree with that.

I disagree with you. It is not all electronic equipment are made up of silver or gold. I do not think anyone has seen bitcoin physically except the digital copy. For that, bitcoin would have existed without those two liquidity. I have seen a TV that made up of wood, although the screen, the panel and cables are made of other materials, probably those parts of the equipment we're manufacturered by silver and gold but not sure. Bitcoin, silver and gold all these liquidities have their value before human so if you compare them you might waste your time. All have their own value in life. Value is added to bitcoin when the peer to peer demand is very high and at that process the price of bitcoin will be very high therefore at point of the trading the price of bitcoin will be high for the benefit of all. Though everyone thinks different way on bitcoin. As it is noe, bitcoin has more values among the three things I mentioned..

Limited if compared to empires and kingdoms, yes, but it still makes the point that collectibles, and assets as Stores of Value according to social consensus, were wanted, were desired, and were used as Mediums of Exchange because they had value. I believe Bitcoin is taking this path.


I didn't forget. Medium of Exchange that's issued, endorsed, and their value assured by a Government is also desirable, and for that it has become something valuable. A path impossible for Bitcoin. Because it's not backed by a Government, I believe Bitcoin has to have value as a Store of Value first if it's to be a Medium of Exchange.


I agree, and I merely used it as an example to make a point. It's either the common rock, or the diamond to trade for the drugs. Which one would the drug dealer accept as payment?

limited utility tribal communities of a small subset era are what you/he describe
i included kingdoms, empires and government controlled versions..

i think you forget to realise that many cultures of forms of kingdoms, empires and governments have existed for THOUSANDS of years

greeks had coins. romans, etc

oh and diamonds are not worth the PRICE you pay.
consumerism 100 years ago made useless diamonds appear as "valuable" when they done consumer advertising of suddenly suggesting that women want diamond rings as a wedding band and those rings needed to be worth over a few months salary. which then set the diamond speculation and increase of underlying value

..
its like restaurants thinking muscles escargot(snails) are a delicacy..
did you know that in the 1900's they were food for the poor.

as for the native american utility of shells(clams)
the colonists latched on to the medium of exchange.. becasue over thousands of years. native americans used it as one.. what you are forgetting is the development pre colonists that established the medium of exchange SoV

so here goes
midstate tribes were no where near oceans. where by having something rare(not found common in normal territoriality) was first seen as something worthy of showing off/displaying.. no money value at first. just something nice to have/own look at.
something unique decorative that is not common in that territory

which then grew into trading it. which then set the value based on how much effort must have gone into the previous owner obtaining it.
which when there were enough shells to make necklaces and trade of shells became common . then they set a SoV of a min value

yep even bitcoin took over 12 months (well into 2010) to start that ball rolling too

most non kingdom/empire/government money. starts off as rare items to display show off/ talk about at campfires.. that then drives demand of another person wanting it as a novelty so they can tell stories.. and then barter begins
then after barter, a set medium of exchange when one item becomes the popular one everyone prefers to use as a medium of exchange.
then to alleviate riots/squabbles fights and battles over disagreements of price. a set min value is then set by consensus or just common agreement of tradition

---

price is the random barter where some cant agree and can lead to disagreement and fight..
value is the min level all can agree, that sits at the bottom as a minimum guarantee/wall/limit..
and then speculate above that depending on demand/supply to add a premium ontop of value if its really wanted/desired.. where the premium is the price

One of the keys to determining the value of a currency is its supply and demand. If the supply of a currency is excessive, it will cause high inflation. Meanwhile, if the supply of currency tends to be low,
Bitcoin has long been considered an alternative to fiat money. Namely, a medium of exchange and a store of wealth that is able to survive in the long term and whose value is not prone to be eroded by time.

The history as described by the research of Nick Szabo tells it differently, or some of it. The "assets" that were used as Medium of Exchange were collectibles, and because they were Stores of Value, they became the preferred Medium of Exchange. Because how could there be a social consensus develop around an "asset" to be a Medium of Exchange if the asset itself is not a Store of Value? Why would I trade my drugs with you if your Medium of Exchange is a common rock? If the rock has a Store of Value component, like a diamond, we can talk.

Oh and I missed OP's arguments and talking points in the torrent of posts about the energy monster.


Governments learn only what they need to know for their job. That's why they figured out how to regulate cryptos and analyze output trails instead of the more technical details such as actually sending the coins to another address without using some stock wallet.


Did I downplay their competence in studying cryptocurrencies for national security purposes? No. Did I say that most government [heads] do not know the technicalities of crypto? Yes I did. You can't expect people who think in terms of the old system, to understand the new one.

That's why they have staff positions for cryptocurrency experts and specialists.


Look at you, just repeating exactly the same talking points of @LegendaryK. I already answered that in other places. How about zoning out to this board and look at all the threads on the 1st page about this subject?


Once again, you are completely missing the point: It is not the directors and managers to study the bitcoin system, but their analysts. Stop pretending the government is an all-seeing eye of Sauron, because if it were, they wouldn't have gotten into this economic mess in the first place.


If you look carefully, my logic is sound - I said that governments won't pay each other with Bitcoin which is why they desire hard cash for that. It has nothing to do with printing money and you're just going off a tangent here.


Past performance does not predict future results. My quote demonstrates the macroeconomic trend of Bitcoin long-term, not some price target Bitcoin will hit at some date.


On the contrary, I believe you are maliciously misinforming people about Bitcoin, to the point where you're saying that it's going to collapse just because a few governments can't afford their electric bills (LOL). You know what, go tell them to subsidize electricity costs if you are really convinced of your conclusions.

Don't you think I'm some basement guy, on the contrary. I am a FOSS software developer. And one of the consequences of being involved in FOSS is that you will guard he collective freedom of all, jealously, from those who seek to put us in darkness after we have seen the light.

If you're out here giving people "free and unfettered internet access", then why are you here trying to gaslight their free and unfettered access to the international banking system?

Let me say that again. I am dead serious about fighting misinformation and FUD, direct to a technology that has the capacity to help people like you, yet you close your eyes to it.


This is irrelevant because the Fed doesn't seize people's gold anymore. I told you they used to seize gold in the past, and that Bitcoin in the present cannot be identified to any person (by any entity) until it reaches some KYC site like an exchange.

In other words, bask in your gold if you want, but if you can't appreciate the significance that a breakthrough form of money brings it people then that's on you.


Please prove your gigantic theories by carrying any of the following attacks against the Bitcoin network:
- A 51% attack
- A large-scale Sybil attack
- A malleability attack (try to scramble unconfirmed transaction IDs en masse)
- A Craig Steven Wright attack (I.e. become a dickhead and sue all Bitcoin developers for BTC that doesn't belong to you, claim to own the whitepaper, try to block people from using Bitcoin Core or Bitcoin using an army of shills)
- Or everyone's favorite, an Electric attack - try to shut down all miners by coercing the utilities to do so.

The fact that not a single one of these attacks has caused significant damage to Bitcoin (if they were even attempted) is a testimony to the resilience of the Bitcoin network.


The good news is that Bitcoin is decentralized money and not a dating platform  


Clearly you have never lived in one of those countries, otherwise you'd see that even with intermittent power outages my friends and I are using cryptocurrencies just fine.

Of course there are no miners here. Nobody's going to mine Bitcoin in a place with unstable power supplies.


Mining is a zero-sum game and follows an economic game theory model, which means whoever censors transactions on their own blocks will lose money. Other miners will happily include them with their tx fees. You should know that Marathon attempted to do exactly what you are talking about. They had to quit, because they were losing tons of money from self-inflicted sanctions. To miners, Greed > Censorship is the relation that forms one of the pillars to the network security.


I have already explained my position in previous replies and see no benefit to repeating it herenif you're just going to distort it.



If you believe that bitcoin was used only to store information and is "worthless", why did you mine in the first place? Surely, you yourself cannot be brainwashed, manipulated as you claim I am? I sense a certain hypocrisy in your posts.


Because other forms of money did not exist back then, and in recent decades it is slowly becoming harder for the average person to buy physical gold (digital wallets with gold tokens do not count).


You know, there is a "Close" button on the right of this browser tab, and all your pains will come to an end...


That seems to describe your attitude here, wildly reflecting the debate in different angles, from declaring that governments can force all miners to shut down to your arrest to "girlfriends" to mining and then to ancient civilizations using gold and finally concluding that the person who is patiently trying to explain to you why Bitcoin is a store of value must be mentally defective.

Christ, I think I broke JayJuanGee's posting length record in the process.

Re: BITCOIN IS NOT A STORE OF VALUE

 BITCOIN IS THE ECONOMIC VALUE.

Wait and see after another decade later.
You will definitely regrets feel shame for your own foolishness.

Bitcoin is Encrypted Monetary System and Money itself.
Fiat Paper is not money but monopoly currency. 

If you can find one and plug it into the power grid, I'll admit your energy abundance future could happen,
so will you admit until you find one, that the energy poor future is arriving?

You forgot one other option: Find the Tesseract.

Now off you go.

I can say the same to you ,

You might want to look over https://zeihan.com/end-of-the-world/
So you won't be caught flat footed in the new world , which is really the old world with the end of globalization.

Their are No Dyson spheres,
Their are No Commercial Nuclear Reactors using Thorium ,
Tidal Energy is not being Utilized Commercially WorldWide by Coastal Communities.

Until one or all of the above are implemented, the future won't be energy abundant.  


FYI:
One other reason why bitcoin is not a store of value.
When the energy cost to mine gold exceeds the value of gold, the miners shut down for months to years , until gold mining is again cost effective.
When the energy cost to mine BTC exceeds the value of BTC , the miners go broke, and the entire network ceases to function. ie: Death spiral
Gold can not death spiral, as it has multiple uses .

social consensus of money is about agreeing on a medium of exchange (not store of value)
that medium can be twigs, shells, pebbles, gold, paper, or crypto


store of value then applies after agreeing on the medium..
where a set bottom limit no one can obtain for less creates a wall where no one can break this lower limit VALUE.. and that then becomes the store of value amount

this amount can be formed by law(kings orders, government min wage) or by social agreement of no one selling below X means X becomes the LOW (value)


when mediums of exchange barter at different amounts (price variations) this is the speculation above the store of value(low/set law/kings order amount)

EG
if shells are the agreed medium
and its agreed that a shell is worth a minimum of 10 minutes of labour/baking time/items
then store of value becomes that lowest amount
people then barter above this amount depending on their desire/demand to pay a premium(extra) ontop

store of value amount is not the market rate. store of value sits below market prices(separate number).

in 2011 when bitcoin had its 'drug purchase usage' pro/neg advertising/propaganda/media phase..the market rate went from $0.30 upto $32 and settled down to $2
but throughout that year, the store of value started about $0.20 and steadily rose to about $1.50 without the mega jump in the middle!(as a separate number from the market rate)

emphasis store of value is separate from market rate
emphasis store of value sits below the market rate
(emphasis store of value is not the "PRICE"

bitcoins store of value is NOT THE PRICE
bitcoins  store of value is NOT THE ATH

bitcoins tore of value sits BELOW the market rate. and is a separate statistic number
its set by the cheapest possible way to obtain bitcoin ON THE PLANET
a number no one can go below, a number that cant be broke/reached by all
a number that by being at such limitbecomes the wall/rule/protection of that amount because no one is able to buy/sell at that amount

bitcoins current SoV is about $13.5k for the year, and getting near $15k for the quarter.

to protect most of your wealth in SoV.. buy bitcoin while its cheap

the lower the price the better value your wealth is protected by

if your buying at ATH. well expect to not have much of your wealth protected
no one should be buying at ATH thinkingthey are protecting their wealth in the short term

bitcoins deflationary nature will slowly increase the SoV amount so if you have patience then slowly the SoV will protect previous high price buys. but you need patience.

EG
in 2017 SoV was only a couple $700 and went upto only a couple $k
but the PRICE went upto $20k
meaning those buying at $20k only had 10% SoV wealth protection.
however waiting 4 years their $20k buy is now SoV protected at 75%
where by each year you hold the SoV protects your wealth by more %

EG
golds SoV is currently about $900. but the market price is about $1700
gold is a SoV of 53% of wealth

Fiats SoV is far far far worse, and loses SoV by x% a year

Ser, read the Origins of Money by Nick Szabo, https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

I believe that proves the fact that it DOESN'T MATTER if the Store of Value asset is a metal, pieces of glass, or a SHELL if the social conensus was formed that the Store of Value asset is valuable, or not. It can be debated that Bitcoin would have been worth close to ZERO if it wasn't adopted by the drug dealers of the Dark Markets. But it was, and it has censorship-resistance components that they need which made it valuable for them, and if it was valuable for them, the value surged when many more of them adopted it, and when the value surged, it also has become valuable to US.

Historically, people have converted their fiat to gold and recently to oil to escape the woes of inflation. But the recent crisis between Russia and Ukraine hints that the world might be ready for a new "store of value". AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE "STORE OF VALUE", I THINK YOU HAVE SOME WRONG OPINION ABOUT IT.
Broadly speaking, a store of value is any object that retains purchasing power into the future, and can be readily exchanged for something else. In other words:

1. A store of value should be worth the same or more over time.
2. A store of value must be exchangeable with something else (like gold, or dollars).

This creates some constraints on good stores of value. A good store of value should not have a very short lifespan, like flowers or milk. It should also be reasonably liquid, which is a measure of how easy or difficult it is to exchange. For example, it’s much easier and faster to exchange a bar of gold for money, than it is to exchange a house for money. Put another way, gold is more ‘liquid’ than real estate. If no one will exchange your store of value for something else of value, then your store of value is effectively worthless. Finally, stores of value should be relatively scarce, or hard to obtain. Air is vitally important, yet its abundance makes it worthless as a store of value.

AND HERE ARE SOME ARGUMENT FOR BITCOIN IS A STORE OF VALUE, FOR YOUR INFORMATION:
There is no denying the newness of Bitcoin, but that newness can also be considered a strength. To give an example, 14 years ago, the first smartphone was released (iPhone). A mere 14 years later, smartphones are ubiquitous around the world. Smartphones allowed people to do old things (browsing the Internet, taking pictures, communicating) in new, better ways. Bitcoin is doing that, but for money and finance. Bitcoin, like many new and disruptive things, is volatile, but if you zoom out it has only gone up -- massively. Indeed, it is the best performing liquid asset in the last decade.

As mentioned, critics of Bitcoin point out that it is artificially scarce, so it is worthless. Yet, plenty of stores of value are artificially scarce. In fact, fiat currency, one of the primary stores of value, is artificially scarce! Governments can always print more, and they often do, but in general they don’t because they want the currency to be relatively scarce. Yet while central banks can reduce the scarcity of fiat currencies at will, Bitcoin’s scarcity is set in stone. There are only 21 million possible bitcoins, and a not insignificant portion of that is lost forever.

It is true that Bitcoin’s technology is not as cutting-edge as other cryptocurrencies, but this can also be seen as a benefit. While newer technologies are likely to have flaws and exploits, Bitcoin is hands down the most battle-tested decentralized network in the world. It has functioned, without downtime, 24/7 since launching in 2009.

Bitcoin is a reasonably liquid asset, and its liquidity is improving by huge percentages every year. Bitcoin is already much easier to transact with than gold, though less easy than fiat currency. Every year more businesses start accepting bitcoin as a viable payment method, which means Bitcoin is developing greater utility. It is currently used for international remittance, and recently has been accepted by some governments as a form of legal tender.

Another important factor contributing to Bitcoin's potential as a store of value derives from its decentralized and purely digital nature. Because Bitcoin is simultaneously everywhere and nowhere, it's difficult to seize or steal yet trivially easy to "take with you." This empowers people to store value independently of third parties, whether they be banks or nation-states, and it eliminates the associated third-party risks. For example, people storing fiat in the bank run the risk that the bank will default or otherwise restrict access to their funds. The same goes for certificates representing gold held in a centralized vault. And while it's true that all of the stores of value discussed in this article can also be stored independently from third parties, the fact that they are physical objects makes storing and moving them inherently more difficult than Bitcoin. While the other stores of value require heavy duty security and are risky or costly to move, Bitcoin - whether it be $100 worth or $100 million dollars worth - can be stored and accessed with little more than a memorized password (and with shared wallets, the single-point-of-failure risk can be mitigated).

As for gold, what if equipment and heavy duty machineries don't exists? Then gold and other precious metals don't have a value and they're not a store of value?

The comparison about the arguments relatively to the value of bitcoin is getting odd every time someone is trying to convey and compare it.

How can you be so ignorant about the distant future?

Just because you're distracted by short term events doesn't mean that global trends are not happening.

Fun fact: Most countries in the world have some kind of 3G penetration including developing countries.

Heck, Starlink can already penetrate any part of the world, the only reason everyone's not using it yet is because of ancient international treaties related to telecommunications frequencies.


Again, you are thinking like someone who is stuck in the past. This isn't 1940 anymore where your energy source is at danger to an invading country.

History has shown us that the defeated party is the one that is stuck in the past (Eg. 19th century Ottomans, 20th century French with their post-WWI obsolete army, Hitler with his complete disregard for nuclear weapons).


They already did that in China and other countries. Why do you think that BTC is still fine a year later?

They'll just move to El Salvador, USA (yes in case you forgot it's not an authoritarian dictatorship) and other havens.

I couldn't agree more. We can only measure value by comparing it to something stable. Unfortunately bitcoin is priced in fiat money and that's never stable, as you can see by the dollar index.
Bitcoin dropped a bit in value this year but in price it crashed, but it happened only because fiat money was pumped at the same time. the dollar was pumped so much that it for the first time in history became worth more than euro. If you pump a price of something it will look like everything else went down in relation.

First of all, it wouldn't exist if we were to make computers exactly the way we are building right now (gold is not even used in some of them nowadays) whereas if we didn't have them, we would still build computers with the information we have, it just wouldn't be as efficient but we could definitely build one, but as we all know it takes years to build something amazing as improvement, so it may take a while but we still could.

Overall, bitcoin as a store of value is not tied to gold or silver, they can all be store of value. Gold is one, and it is a good one, silver is one, it's middle level, and crypto has been growing and becoming bigger for sure.

So based on your think tank analysis of "most governments", they don't understand bitcoin?
Maybe they don't understand it the way that I do, but they are intelligent enough to stop any potential threats to their current financial system when it pertains to online digital dollars. The internet relies on ISP's, who are regulated by government oversight - if the government wants to strangle the life out of bitcoin, that's within their realm of power - as amply shown with current AML/KYC laws. Internet service providers are more than happy to comply since they work together. Indisputable facts.


Again, underestimating and attempting to undermine the people in charge of the current system just demonstrates your lack of understanding and ignorance of the people in charge. They are alot more dangerous and in control than you realize. You are making snap judgements based on what exactly? One thing I learned is to never underestimate anyone, ever. Especially governments. You are basically telling me and the world by posting here that "most governments" don't understand economics? Sure they do, they created this flawed system we use today (by design i might add), that you still continue to be a part of and utilize.

Governments collectively might not understand the code, or how each block is determined, but they understand very well that without power or internet that bitcoin = nothing. Seriously, you are making me feel like I'm teaching astrophysics to a penguin. First let's cover some baby steps, I understand everyone learns at a different pace here so I'll go slow...

Who invented the internet, and for what primary use?
The internet indeed began as a typical government program. The ARPANET, designed to share mainframe computing power and to establish a secure military communications network. You honestly believe that they didn't understand or envision the potential when they created the backbone on which your cryptos operate and where we are having this argument right now? Let's not forget about the NSA, yeah your friends that spy on all your communications and log everything you do online... You going to tell me they don't understand bitcoin either, when in fact it was one of their own mathematicians (Glenn M. Lilly) that actually created it. - search patent 6829355. My honest opinion to you, and majority of others arguing opinions based outside of logic is that you might think about spending more time researching history and facts rather than news articles that perpetuate foolish beliefs.

- Flawed logic.

The government/federal reserve can print as much currency as they want... liquidity isn't an issue when you control the issuance of currency into the system. There is nothing to stop them from doing this at will.


This is one area where I agree with you to a point. They generally are not educated about crypto-currency, however their main role is to speak to the general public with a pre-determined script written by higher ups. They are just smart enough to do the paperwork, understanding something isn't their role when it comes to speaking, same way that presidents aren't hired to be brilliant. There is someone pulling the levers behind the curtains.



Except for the fact that I accurately predicated the exact price range and the exact time (exactly 3 days before in one instance, and then 7.5 months out from the date I uploaded it mooned, 2 x in a row with 100% success and accuracy), case and point:

https://youtu.be/eqZHzbP2Fe4

Make sure to check the date of upload, compared to the bitcoin price 7.5 months from that exact date... Tell me what I missed exactly. Explain please, teach the class here...

Still believe I don't understand bitcoin, and I don't know what I'm talking about? I was arrested by the government (a few 3 letter agencies) for my work with reverse engineering firmware and giving countless people (globally) free untraceable internet access... Also, I began mining bitcoin in 2008-2016 and am a Network Architect in distributed systems from 2001-current... What credentials do you have to be lecturing anyone about crypto's, let alone governments?


No comment, not because I agree but because it's not worth my time to explain.



Me: I hide my gold at an undisclosed location, or in my house... Please, tell me where it is... confiscate it and it's yours. bitcoin is on a PUBLIC LEDGER... How many people know I have gold if I walk into a coin shop or buy from an individual on the street, or sell to an individual on the street? NONE. How many people know when your bitcoin exchanges hands? EVERYONE - PUBLIC LEDGER! When someone purchases, or cashes out, AML/KYC laws are right there waiting... Gold doesn't suffer the burden of having 24/7 surveillance. I can buy it without giving my personal info, I can sell it just the same. Somewhere, at the very least beginning point cryptos have entrances and exits that have armed guards, metal detectors, 24/7 watch dogs... And you think Gold is somehow the same in that regard? LOL. You haven't refuted anything with logic or common sense. Power goes out or internet goes out, what do you honestly have? The simple unadulterated truth is, NOTHING, you have nothing! - FACT. Power goes out, internet goes out and I have gold... I have that barbarous relic that you undermined, meanwhile you have nothing to give, and nothing to take... Your store of value, then becomes a store of nothingness, you have nothing in your hands to hold on to.

That's not even touching on the subject of crypto-currencies already being reverse engineered (and in fact they ARE!), you think that hacks and exploits that you haven't heard about don't exist? I personally know they do because of my line of work I have seen first hand individuals and exchanges alike have their crypto wallets completely emptied! They now have NOTHING, and nobody to call to get it back!.. Still not grasping simple laymans term concepts here? You own NOTHING until it is in PHYSICAL FORM.

Take for example I have a girlfriend in real life, and you have a long distance girlfriend... We both claim we have a girlfriend and depending on how you look at it, that's true for both of us. Take into consideration I'm with my girlfriend everyday, and all you can do is videochat yours... Then one day you find out that your online girlfriend is really my in person girlfriend that I sleep with everynight, she tells me what a sucker you are, sending her money, and meanwhile shes giving it to me...

Question: Who has the girlfriend? Who gets to touch her? Who holds her everynight? who has sex with her? - Same analogy for money, if YOU DON'T HOLD IT, YOU DON'T OWN IT!
Answer: I have the girlfriend, you have NOTHING!


Me: Lets simply ignore all those without power, and in alot of third world countries intermittent power outage and complete power failures have become more commonplace, but because you and I have electric, that must mean we all do... HAHA! Bitcoin cannot be censored? I actually thought you were serious but then I quickly realized you can't be serious. This has to be a joke... Again, I use to be a bitcoin miner... The miners can refuse transactions for any number of reasons. If I don't want to take your transaction, I don't have to. However, if the government decides to come in and take over all the mining operations and centralize the entire project like they have been doing in various fashions, you now are at a loss for words or able to argue completely. If the government doesn't want it to take place (online), then it won't! They have that power to change what you imagined was a store of value to a store of nothing, with a few laws, and a few armed men to come in and take over everything.


Me:
Gold is a thing of the past, also of the present, and future... Again, here you go again prematurely judging, myself and others, as well as things you have no place speaking about... How many times do you need to be taught a lesson? You think because I only have 41 posts that makes you more knowledgeable? All that means is you spend a lot more time arguing online than actually working in real life.


Me:
Lets quickly look up how fast and frequently the governments and banks in those countries are buying physical precious metals... And lets compare to their crypto holdings.. ouch, speechless now? Gonna tell everyone the government doesn't understand or is somehow naive? When the fact is you're the one that's been completely manipulated and brainwashed into thinking you have something, the fact is you have nothing but an empty bag - until your bitcoin is cashed out.




Me: Anyone can buy gold... It's dependent on supply and demand, gold actually has real world uses and utility (intrinsic value) outside of being a monetary instrument. Bitcoin has no utility other than to store information, it has no intrinsic value. And you're going to tell me that something that has intrinsic value is a thing of the past, and something that has none is a store of value? I am almost to the point of calling you a lost cause. I never imagined someone could be as slow as the level of incoherent arguments that you are displaying here. Closed circle of adoption? Explain then how the entire world knows what it is and has sought it out since it was first discovered... Many civilizations, actually EVERY civilization, has treasured it. Maybe you don't understand gold, because you've never actually held an ounce of gold in your hands?



I'm sure you could do this all day, considering the very likely possibility that your living in your parents basement eating cheetos and taco bell and collecting government stimulus... You share the herd mentality, and like all herds they are actively being led to slaughter. I'll take my chances and follow the retards that are stupid and don't understand bitcoin, yet they keep buying gold and giving bitcoin back to idiots like you. Please, don't waste my time again by taking up space on my computer screen with your nonsensical arguments.

My assessment based on your level of understanding is that you suffer from what is known as "cognitive dissonance":

Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong.
When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted.
It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance.
And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.

This is where you have utterly parted with reality.

If you bothered to actually read the current news,
you would see the world is on the brink of collapse
in the following sectors Demographics / Finance / Energy / Food.

FYI:   This is the world you live in.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/24/macron-warns-of-end-of-abundance-as-france-faces-difficult-winter
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/here-s-what-europe-is-doing-to-reduce-energy-consumption-for-winter#xj4y7vzkg
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/egypts-cabinet-approves-plan-ration-electricity-save-gas-export-2022-08-11/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/15/kosovo-stops-import-of-electricity-and-begins-energy-rationing
https://time.com/6209272/europes-energy-crisis-getting-worse/
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220829-french-pm-says-companies-may-face-energy-rationing-this-winter
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/23/china-is-facing-another-power-crunch-but-this-time-its-likely-to-be-different.html
https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/texas-power-grid-electricity-ercot-abbott-heat.html

All one has to do , to censor bitcoin is a phone call.
Governments official call operator of mining pool, you are breaking AML/KYC laws the following transactions will be censored or you will be imprisioned.
Government office call ASIC mining warehouses, you include any transactions to blacklisted addressed and we will cut the power to your warehouse.
* Bitcoin is so weak , it is absolutely pathetic. *

---

How can you claim to be a realist, when you ignore all news about the coming energy shortages and price hikes
I guess we should tell the pub owner that energy bill just when from $12K per year to $64K per year, that it is all in her imagination.
Or the people in Paris , that get mugged at night because the lights are off due to rationing
Or the people of Spain , that are being asked to  basically not use their ACs
Or the people in California , that were asked not to charge their electric cars, because the grid can't handle it.

Wake Up Dorthy, you ain't in Kansas anymore and the energy supply is limited, and getting worse daily not better.

As said earlier ,
No power, No Bitcoin.

Gold will survive any power outages.  

Store of Values, don't disappear when the power goes off.

 

regarding space mining
the whole colonise moon/mars.. is not about some leisure destination or just colonise for the sake of colonise.. where the residents just twiddle their thumbs looking out of thick glass windows wondering what to do all day.. . its actually to set up refineries up there.

the cost of moving 100tonne to earth is high.
but to land on moon/mars is cheap. the fuel needed for landing/takeoff from moon/mars is far far far less than earth

the idea is not to bring a asteroid unrefined to earth where they then have to refine it where the yield of gold is sub1% of material.. it would be refined in space and when finally brought back to earth (to be sold) it would be 100tonne of 95%+ pure material to go straight to market

throwing that amount on the market. well that would send sentiments crazy, and also the cost of all of it is lower than you think

elons "boring" company is not making tunnels on earth just for cars on earth to have special roads underground. its R&D for ripping through rock.
they dont want to just carry a large rock in one lump. they want to have the tech to mine /break it up and refine it up there.
..
separate subject
ethereum has a SOV which will change dramatically once it goes full PoS as the cost of production will drop dramatically
"saving 99.95% energy" is the subtle hint

the ratio of SOV:speculation will change  from $1.2k price=
SOV high:speculation low
if eth tries to still trade above $1k after PoS merge
SOV Low: speculation:high

I wouldn't say it's about the cost of harvesting the asteroid (at least in this particular case) because it has a theoretical value 250,000 times more than the current world money supply, but it's more an issue about the current technological capacities we have. By the info I found the price would be hugely under any sort of SOV, 99,9999% under  

There is an ongoing mission to fetch that big rock: https://psyche.asu.edu/mission/ . Hope never dies, I guess...

Regarding the BTC $15k ish SOV I find it a pretty accurate extrapolation.

Considering you have a BITMAIN AntMiner S19 Pro+ Hyd (198Th), most powerful BTC miner so far, it would take you ~37 months to mine 1 BTC.
$8k for the miner, $8k the electric bill ... so yeah, 15-16k sounds about right

golds store of value is not the current price of $1700

golds SOV is about $900
the excess $800 is the premium, speculative area of where the gold price can go up and down. depending on many variables of regional sentiment, personal choice and market desires of the many users fighting for gold on the market

..
as for space mining gold. yes "supply" is then sentimentally broken. but that sentiment is the desire, sentiment, emotional decision of how much someone is willing to pay for it above the SOV line.

however if they can space mine gold for less than $900 an ounce.. then and only then does it touch/change the SOV amount bottomline

EG
if you can mine gold for $900.. because your in a great cheap gold mining area. you may still not want to mine it for many reasons you think of and just want to easily buy it.
then its speculatively premium for you to just buy it for a little more because the effort and multiple reasons are worth buying it for more than $900
or
EG if you live in an area with high labour, high diesel cost and low gold per acre land. where the costs are more then $900 mining cost for you personally again then you are in the speculative zone

but because no one can mine/acquire, anywhere on the planet fot under $900. then that $900 is the current locked in value. where no one is selling for less. thus is the bottom

Pretty fair points !

And regarding gold... there's more where that came from  !



Yes, it is 12 times further than Mars (~630,000,000 km) but hey... baby steps 

now that previous post has corrected his conspiracy theory and put him on a different path that has atleast some logic/reason/math. physics economic and ecologic explanation..

beck to the topic in question

bitcoin has got a store of value.. but this VALUE is not the price

the best way to think about it is the economic window of the cheapest price anyone on planet can get bitcoin for. as the line, the bottomline of price potential.

EG
   |  SOV  ||      speculative variable (price)          |
   ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
   0        15        30        45        60        75        90

no one can or does buy bitcoin for less than $15k right now. so that is a kind of 'locked in value'
anything above the value line. is then speculative premium

the store of value is currently $15k ish

stop thinking the PRICE is the store of value amount
the PRICE is store of value+speculative premium

if you can buy bitcoin at good value(cheap close to bottom) great you are doing a good thing.
you are maximising your potential and reducing the risk.
where your wealth is of good value and more of your wealth is locked in/secure

oh.. i see your one of them conspiracy guys that have watched 20 "eugenics" "new world order" videos.. which have spread virally through media..

i actually am a realist. i knew as far back as the 1980's that oil/coal was running out.

but lets point you in the right direction of history and future that may actually tickle your anti-gov anti corp feelings. but using actual common sense, logic, physics, economics and math


the gulf wars and such were not due to humanitarian efforts, they were due to trying to steal oil/gas because america/europe was running out domestically in the 80's so needed to grab some from elsewhere

the whole "carbon crisis" is more of a business deal to get public funding to pay for private business to transition over to renewables because.. no surprise coal/oil/gas reserves would run out by 2030-2050 the same guestimate date era that is called out as the carbon(climate crisis) point of no return

yes carbon is a lung health risk. but a 0.x% to 0.xy% is not a big enough change to 'kill everyone' (like you think)
the atmosphere alarm about warming/cooling. is more about water. not carbon
yep less water in the air means less rain = less cooling.
all them dams and reservoirs, water pipes, sewers over the last century have caused more impact on temperature.. those human constructed things prevent free water flow to wet the land, thus cant cool the land as much

which means less water to evaporate to then cause more rain. which means less coolling
its called the water cycle (elementary school stuff)
messing with the water cycle(yes its human caused climate crises, but its water not coal thats to blame most)

try it.. get 2 glasses of water. walk into your yard where the sun beams down onto your pavement/drive/patio.. put 1 glass as-is on the ground. and pour the other across the ground as a puddle.. you will see that the free flowing water across land evaporates. where as the one in the dammed reservoir does not evaporate as much)
(yes thats the downside of hydro power plants. the need of dams have dried the land and messed with the water cycle)

next get 2 glasses with lids. half fill both glasses. put the lids on but in one glass blow just 0.x% of smoke vs the air % of the half glass of air

wait and then check the temperature difference later on.. the change is not noticable.

you then learn when the day rains.. the temperature drops more then the carbon(smoke) difference.

yep all these "try its" are things you can do, easily by yourself
(also look at the cries about the brazilian "RAIN"forest. and not a mention of a "carbon"forest. and realise what is being impacted by deforestation
....
anyways back to the power consumption and utility which you think will ban things..

 power companies dont have or dont want to pay out of their own pocket to transition to renewables, as its not cheap. they know they have to do it by 2030-2050 as they will have no resource to produce energy via fossil fuel by then.
yep all oil and coal would run out, so the climate crises message about fossil fuel would self fulfil/solve itself by being 0% fossil energy production by then anyway
yep with fossil fuel running out by 2050. there would be 0% fossil fuel production by 2050 by doing absolutely nothing different.

. so they are trying to get the public to fund their evolution by finding some humanitarian reason to get the public to fund their activities
again like getting the public to fund the gulf wars to grab oil from other countries by calling it a humanitarian crises.
..
so if you want to follow some agenda capitalism has against individuals. atleast do some research and not quote the stories of media.


here is the thing. when they make new power plants based on renewable.. the build costs are not based on supplying current demands. the cost is based on demands of 20-50 years.. meaning the cost is 3-5x higher than current demand, because the demand now is not sufficient to pay the cost over all. which delays making such power plants now

think about it if they have a region of 1m houses, but build  a power plant to support the future 3mill houses. they are only now going to get 33% potential income because there is only 1m houses paying bills, not 3m

so they want business. they want users of electric to consume that 2m houses excess NOW. so they can cover their costs now and expand sooner

..
this is why energy prices are higher. because instead of using old cheap energy production, regions are having to use higher rate renewable energy that costs more.

those with the less accessible old energy production get to raise their prises because of competition. allowing them to raise their prices. where they profit and the hope was that profit would be used to transition to renewable
..
summary
power plants transitioning to renewables want new business of high electric demand to move into their region so they can get 100% potential income instead of the slow 30% income in first few years of demand.

..
the banning of mining. is not about not wanting it..
its about banning it so that they can then control the licence/permits of where they will then allow it.
yep they want to be able to make licences/permits that allow asic farms to set up. but they first need to be able to control it. which first requires banning it.

I've seen yesterday a nice tweet, although old.


Based on your logic, copper, quartz/sand (SiO2) and plastic are also a store of value. Be my guest in storing your funds in that.

Most governments are dinosaurs when it comes to technology, the US government is no exception.

Governments do not know the economics about cryptos and the only knowledge pertaining to them that they have is from their crypto specialists, who are more knowledgeable about how to trace crypto owners than how it actually works:



Same reason why Tesla dumped their cache - because they need hard cash for liquidity, nobody there will accept payment on Bitcoin.

News media outlets writing about crypto are written usually by uneducated and uninformed people who have no knowledge of cryptocurrency economics.


Sure we do. Most of us own bitcoin because we believe in its economic principles. You can mock and ridicule us now, but you will be the one shaking your head when Bitcoin's price moons again and you missed out on it (for the $1 trillion market cap is the not the peak of its market adoption).


Gold is most used by governments as collateral against loans to other governments. Because hey do not want to deal with Bitcoin's (current) volatility for loans, that is understandable.


You conveniently ignore the fact that I have refuted your non-confiscation claim about Gold:

- Government sends a warrant against you = no gold, bitcoin, or any other asset.

Besides, we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored). So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

Gold is a thing of the past, used only by lenders, and dinosaurs who are unable to appreciate the profound implications of bitcoin (like Peter Schiff and you).

You see Ukraine's internet being controlled by Russia, is bitcoin dying there? No.

What about in Afghanistan, where crypto is banned there? No.

China? No.

Russia? Hell no...


And gold depends on whether people are willing to sell it to you (custodial wallets do not count since it's not even your gold). It's a closed circle of adoption.


I can do this all day with you. If you are on a tight schedule because you are in a rush to go find a fallout shelter to save yourself from an imaginary collapse, then that's on you. 99.99% of other people do not share your opinion about economic collapse.

And yet it didn't stop you scammers from creating an exact copy of it, add a premine and sell it to idiots who were fooled by the Scammer Supreme CSW.

P.S. Interesting how this topic brought 2 of the old cockroaches of this forum out of their holes.

Time and experience will show you people.

You think the governments don't know or understand whats going on?

Why would they hoard precious metals and auction bitcoin, you think they are in the dark on this or you people on these forums are somehow more educated and intelligent than the people running the show from behind the scenes?

You all have a rude awakening coming.

IF bitcoin is a store of value, why doesn't the government hoard it for themselves, you think the people working at the NSA don't understand bitcoin?... it's their hashing algorithm. What about the news media outlets telling the general public it was only used by criminals and the government can't track it... Tell me how quickly you people let go of that delusion when the AML/KYC laws came home to roost.

All I see on these forums is a shared delusion for a 14 year old man-made invention. Likely perpetuated by the fact that 99.999% of people here have a vested interest in bitcoin/crypto-currency.

You would think that after every economic collapse people would be able to figure out that they will never beat the government, or their plans. Gold has and always will be part of their plan. bitcoin on the other hand, they will seize yours, then auction it off. They won't do that with gold.

Hard asset: Gold - 6000+ years and counting. Governments cannot stop it, so they hoard it instead.
Empty space: Bitcoin - 14 years with too many flaws to count. Governments can regulate it to death.

Yeah, bitcoin is about to get it's baby teeth knocked out by reality.

- Power failure = no bitcoin.
- Power costs get too high to sustain infrastructure = no bitcoin.
- Internet outage = no bitcoin.
- No electronic device = no bitcoin.
- Miners don't accept transaction = no bitcoin.
- You lose your income to pay for electric, internet, phone service = no bitcoin.
- Government takes over any of these major things = no bitcoin.

Let's see it remain a "store of value" if any of these things happens. Gold works regardless of all these things, that cannot be controlled.

Not to mention how many cyber threats that lurk in the shadows that you are oblivious to, what if a foreign nation hacks our power grid and shuts everything down, or a terrorist attack that knocks out electronic devices. It wouldn't take much to take out a large portion of the US.... How will you transact then?

bitcoin is fragile, and relies on so many other things to be able to function. Gold is just there, as it always has been, waiting to prove you wrong.

Too many things can go wrong with bitcoin, check Murphy's Law.

As the world goes into an economic collapse even more you think that's going to be sustained?
By what, your hopes and dreams? You gonna force the people that have no clue about what bitcoin is to use it?

I don't need to explain gold or silver to anyone because everyone already knows what they are.

That’s simply not true that all electronics require either silver or gold to operate. If it was true, everything would be a lot more expensive than it is right now. Of course there are certainly a good bit of electronics that do, but it’s just a big exaggeration saying all do. Bitcoin is on its way to becoming a store of value in my opinion, and that’s not just going to happen over night. It’s going to take time.

Fun fact:

World's electricity consumption in 2019: 23,900 TWh = 23,900,000,000 KWh
Estimated number of cars in 2019: 1.4 billion = 1,400,000,000

If we assume (exaggerate) that each car will have a battery of 40KWh and will have 200km autonomy and driving just 20km per day (12.5 miles) that means they would need 56,000 TWh EVERY 10 DAYS !
So 2,016,000 TWh per year. That's over 84X the current TOTAL electric consumption JUST from cars alone.

BTC consumes an estimated 127 TWh per year.

We've got 99 problems but crypto mining ain't one !


They can just develop some new alloy materials to replace them. Expensive to R&D but probably cheaper in the long run !

For goodness sake how does this have something in common with bitcoin discussion, i think the rate of trolling newbies are ever increasing these days on bitcoin discussion, especially during this dip period, maybe that's one of the reasons to the increase, I checked the bitcoin discussion board to discover lot of threads talking shits about bitcoin here and there which i think most of them will definitely end up locked by the moderator and members will place such users on ignore list.

1. The energy infrastructure can't support all cars being electric, so just forget that from happening.
2. The worldwide PoW ban is coming , no matter what fantasies you have in your head.

Pretending the entire world energy output is on a single grid is one of the delusions you should part with.

Pay attention:
The time of abundance is over, this means less energy , less finance, less food, and a lot less people.
Proof of Waste can't survive except in a time of abundance.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/24/macron-warns-of-end-of-abundance-as-france-faces-difficult-winter

FYI:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/here-s-what-europe-is-doing-to-reduce-energy-consumption-for-winter#xj4y7vzkg
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/egypts-cabinet-approves-plan-ration-electricity-save-gas-export-2022-08-11/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/15/kosovo-stops-import-of-electricity-and-begins-energy-rationing
https://time.com/6209272/europes-energy-crisis-getting-worse/
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220829-french-pm-says-companies-may-face-energy-rationing-this-winter
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/23/china-is-facing-another-power-crunch-but-this-time-its-likely-to-be-different.html
https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/texas-power-grid-electricity-ercot-abbott-heat.html

Ignoring the energy supply problem, will not make it go away.
PoW mining will be banned to save as many people from dying as possible from the harsh winters and burning summers that are coming.


You think, Governments are going to turn off lights, & shut down industries,
but allow BTC PoW mining to draw down the ever decreasing energy resources 24x7.
Wake up, the people will go burn down the PoW mining warehouses for heat before that happens.

try to do some math
work out the KWH of a electric car doing just 20miles a day(normal use)
multiply that by how many cars need to be electric soon

then realise that cars would require MORE electric than bitcoin mining industry
..
the bitcoin asics are getting far better at efficiency than an electric car can get
in the 8 years (2014-2022) of asics.
going from a 3.25kw GPU rack of a couple GHASH
to a asic of 3.25KW achieving ~158,000Ghash. in just 8 years
is alot better then the car batters 5% more efficient per generation/year

over the last year alone bitcoin hashrate has remained around the 200exa amount
but the electric has changed from about 80thash for 3.25kwh
to be ~158thash for 3.25  (~255 for 5.3)

meaning HALF the amount of electric, less amount of physical asics to still have 210exa network

math and a calculator are far more superior than a article/youtube video with bias

That is completely different from "selling random objects for broken phone parts". Broken phone parts are not a currency or a store of value (and it would take a fool to believe that).


Now you are just straight-up lying.

Here is at least five instances of gold being seized from their rightful owners. Just because their government could. How are you going to react to this, pull an Alex Jones and declare Wikipedia to be a conspiracy theory?


Bitcoin can only be seized if you reveal the private key to the would-be seizers.

The fact is, law enforcement and hackers alike cannot brute force even a 160-bit address. They will never be able to brute-force a 256-bit private key even if they turned the sun into a Dyson sphere.

You are always welcome to ask law enforcement and Chainalysis to crack Satoshi's private key at https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa, they would be very happy to seize the coins (but they will never be able to because they will never find the private key with "chain analysis").


22. And something tells me that you are the one acting like a 12yro around here, because although I have not found any references citing this as a crime, you are entering into grey territory by melting the serial numbers off, putting a big target on your head by the government. Imagine trying to move that gold around, and customs see it.

Nobody would take that risk, especially since there is a less suspicious way of doing that (Bitcoin). Which, despite all your rambling about chainalysis, the truth is that they can not identify a single bitcoin trail until it reaches a KYC exchange. They can only label an ID on them (and even my little C++ Turing-complete programs can do that).

Here we go again. Just FYI, everything in life happens for a reason and is all connected or interconnected to each other's development. If humans didn't exist then... I guess you know the rest. It is because we existed every other thing that will aid human existence existed and this view of Gold and Silver being used to develop whatever assisted in Bitcoin creation does not take away what Bitcoin is and as far as I am concerned, there is no correlation in this.

Vacation time,  

What you don't know:
Baby Boomers are cashing out to US$,
this means,
Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Earnings.
Also the so called army of btc holders is going to get absolutely crushed by the inflation of energy & food costs, and it will get worse for the next few years.
Selling of BTC is going to be far below the energy cost to mine it.
As one analyst put it, Bitcoin is nothing more than a dumpster fire in the coming environment.
BTC PoW mining will be banned worldwide within ~2½ years,
because the people are going to raise ever lovin cane about btc miners driving up energy rates when the people rate is going to triple.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the demographic /financial / energy / food collapses are all just starting and Proof of Work is just too flawed to survive it.
The abundance of the past is over, now begins the time of hardships, and struggles such as your generations has never known.
It sucks, but the time of abundance is up.  

I expect nothing from you, so save your moral pretense for those dumb enough to hold btc to zero.

FYI:
Start a Garden, if you want to Live, because Winter is Coming, and she is going to be a real bitch from now on.

1. control your own keys = security
    custodian your value = risk..

he used the mtgox(custodian) which is nothing to do with using your own key security.. so first fail on him not understanding bitcoin principles

2. 'stable of price' is not the same as 'store of value'..  price and value are not the same number/thing

so second fail on him not understanding bitcoin . and first fail on not understanding economics

3. he thinks more retailers accept gold as payment than bitcoin. not true
i guy food, gadgets, and other daily lifestyle stuff in bitcoin, yet those same retailers wont accept gold

4. as for gold.. he claims bitcoin seizures are more common than gold
governments seize more gold than bitcoin per year
lets take india. it seized 9.8billion RS of gold in 2019 ($128m)
but india has not seized >$128m in btc
india reported in 2019 they seized less than $2m of bitcoin (60x less)

People generally sell broken phones and computers and other electronics for parts, ebay is a prime example. In many cases people save the broken PCB's to extract the precious metals...

Gold has never been actually physically taken from citizens here in the USA, and even if they tried, people can come up with alot more creative ways of hiding them that make it not worth it for the government to even try...

Bitcoin can in fact be seized, if hackers can steal it, then the government can steal it... with alot more ease than physically trying to find someones precious metals....
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/04/22/seized-silk-road-bitcoin-to-clear-ross-ulbrichts-183-million-debt/

Bitcoin is on a public ledger, even if you coinjoin or mixed, chainalysis can work with law enforcement and seize them... You're not really hiding anything, your obfuscating, and they can easily figure that out.

As a matter of fact, you're a genius... if only humans invented this thing called a smelter to melt precious metals down so there wouldn't be any serial numbers.... Cmon bro, what are you like 12?

I don't know what happened to you but looking at your previous posts here, you used to be make very rational arguments. But now you appear to be in complete "clown car" (to borrow a phrase from TECSHARE) mode. What the heck happened with you?

You know the bear market is only temporary, that bitcoin has recovered from every single price recession and has surpassed the peaks of previous halvening cycles even in current bear conditions, so why are you repeating the FUD of nocoiners?

I suggest you go buy some BTC before 4 years from now you wished you listened to my advice and bought some while it was still available for $20K...

I expected better from you.

Bitcoin
Scam  √
GetRich Scheme √
Full of ConMen  √

So are you going to cover the losses of anyone that purchase btc at $60K, and it fell to $20K.
Since you want to be the fiat-btc price fairy.
If not , I guess that means you are one of the con-men.


 

FYI:
So are you going to cry fud when the World Governments all Ban PoW mining. 

See, people like you are the reason prospective buyers have been warned by newspapers not to buy bitcoins in the early years, thus missing their chance to get free bitcoins, and are now busy making scammy altcoins that pump&dump investors in an attempt to make themselves rich.

And as long as you continue on that path, there will be ever more conmen making scamcoins just to get rich quick.

Some people got rich , and do you know how,
they sold a large chunk , if not all of their bitcoins.

Dummies that keep holding, eventually die and their coins are lost, and they never prosper from bitcoin at all.
Most people won't share their private keys even with family, so coins are lost.

And if you can't see BTC is pure gambling, you are going to end up one of the people that go home with nothing.  
Vegas-Baby!

For those confused out there, their is no price fairy that guarantees the BTC price per coin won't go to zero.
If BTC devs keep ignoring the coming Government Proof of Waste mining bans, zero is the only price BTC will be worth.

...that can NOT be recovered from the components unless you use hazardous metal extraction methods from the components such as liquefying them.

There's a reason why more end of life electronics end up in the landfill than in extraction laboratories. Because the cost to extract the gold from there is greater than the value of gold that is to be recovered. Besides it makes a lot of water pollution doing that anyway.


And even you admit that they cannot be recovered. So why then, are people not using phones and PCs as a currency?   Because they have none of the properties of one, that's why.

PS. Gold can be confiscated!

Bitcoins cannot be confiscated!

Because they can be moved to a wallet whose private keys are owned by someone in another country.

So your point about gold being untraceable is irrelevant. I can simply CoinJoin my bitcoins and all traces will be broken.

You, on the other hand, can't CoinJoin your gold or silver, can you? No, because you can bet your bullions that they have serial numbers engraved on them.

Worldwide, the ANNUAL manufacture of high-tech products (PCs, cell phones, tablet computers and other electronic and electrical devices) uses some $21 billion worth of gold and silver (320 tons and 7,500 tons, respectively).

What you're proposing is in fact, ridiculous. $21 billion/year isn't negligible. That's just in electronics alone, not counting all it's many other real world uses where it cannot ever be recovered once it's used. Once it's been put into electronics if those electronics are thrown away, the precious metals that were used in said electronics can never be recovered.

I just don't see how people can bother arguing about precious metals, they have and always will be stores of value that NOTHING man made will ever replace. They were here since the beginning of time, and will be here until the end of time. I'd like to see a person create something better than nature. It's yet to happen. I'll place my bets with nature as the winner, no contest. Keep living in fantasy land.

That's ridiculous. Gold and silver are good electrical conductors, and that's the only reason they are used in electronics. Bitcoin is not an element that's why you don't see any bitcoin in your electronic equipments.

The value of the quantity of gold and silver inside your device's is negligible, and for all practical purposes is much less than 1 mBTC.

Governments are auctioning off bitcoin to fools like you, while purchasing precious metals in record breaking numbers... Are you being willfully ignorant of the facts? Google how much Gold China has purchased, or Russia...

There's a reason why they are selling it to you... To track everything you do. You're about to lose the little bit of anonymity that cash brought, now that they are phasing cash out and going digital, you'll be 100% spied on and you don't even seem to care...

At least Gold and Silver still offer 100% privacy. Don't even start with monero or dash that. Its all been reverse engineered. And at the very least they can be censored by ISP's via government regulation. Tell me all about how bitcoin works outside the system, until it didn't... Funny how that story suddenly sank like the titanic.

Just look at what we are doing with BTC today, we trade, buy something using BTC and keep it in our wallet. When we fund the charity foundation using BTC, it is accepted so it's got to be more than just a store of value. Regardless of what this guy is saying, digital assets will be adopted and will be used widely that governments today are grabbing.

"Store" of "Value"

A store is a place for something. Value is the worth we assign something. An object with value has some kind of tangible worth.

It may be food. It may be real estate. It may even be a collectible, in which case the value is more subjective than objective.

You may see value in a Picasso. I may not. In a zombie apocalypse, you may still see value in that Picasso, but I will prefer the objective value of a bazooka (with things to shoot from it).

If something has value, it can be exchanged with another person for something of value - and it isn't always the same thing that gets exchanged.

Money can be exchanged for food, for example.

Food can be exchanged for guns, and so on.

Suppose you live on a farm. You can harvest food from that farm. The farm remains a store of value as long as you produce food. In fact, everything involved with growing and harvesting that food is a store of value because every item is needed to create the food.

Aluminum is a store of value. We need aluminum to make some of the machinery to farm the land. Water, seeds, land - these are all stores of value.

So, if something is going to be a "store of value", it should hold that value under all but the most remote of circumstances. Its objective and subjective value may fluctuate, but over the long term, it will maintain much of that value.

The real estate market crashed in 2009, but it has recovered. Over the long term, real estate not only holds its value but its value also increases. That's because the land has many ways that value can be extracted from it, and because there is a finite amount of it. The value of that asset is stored.
Bitcoin Is Not A Store Of Anything

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It is not backed by any asset. It has no collectible value. It isn't even a tangible thing you can hold in your hand. It's vapor, living out there as 1s and 0s.

Talk about a ghost in a machine!

Bitcoin is not a store of or for anything. If it is a store of value, I should be able to convert fiat currency into bitcoin and bitcoin will maintain that value.

That does not happen.

Here's Bitcoin's track record at maintaining the value of US dollars over the last 3 ½ years.

https://ibb.co/mczqpm5

That chart is not maintaining anything. It's incredibly volatile.

Bitcoin's volatility is why it is not a store of value. It is also not a store of value because nobody needs it. Gold and Silver have always remained reliable stores of value, because they are needed and used the world over.

Maybe you believe that "one day" Bitcoin will stabilize and become a store of value.

Great! But why would you hold any Bitcoin until that day arrives?

If that day comes, what if it ends up at a 1-1 exchange ratio with the US dollar and you bought it at $8,569? Not only will you have realized Bitcoin wasn't a store of value, but you'll also be poor, and very angry.

You will also have opportunity cost - what you could have earned with that money while you "maintained" it in Bitcoin.

Means of Exchange
I want to make it clear that there is a big difference between being a store of value and being a means of exchange.
Currency is not a store of value. It is a means of exchange. Currency does not retain its value because of inflation. MONEY on the other hand, (which is gold), always maintains it's purchasing power.

Bitcoin is a means of exchange, but not a reliable one.

The problem is that it is a worse means of exchange than any other stable country's currency because of its volatility.

By the time you execute a currency conversion into bitcoin, and then into another currency, there is no guarantee the value will be maintained during the exchange (discounting commissions). "Hence, exactly why bitcoin is not a store of value".

Not really sure what you mean, you're talking about gambling, investing in Bitcoin isn't a gambling, period.
Even Bitcoin price will dump 80% from the current ATH, you still have 20% in USD rate and you could sell it if you want, you're not lost everything.

Many early adopter who mine BTC in the early days are have good life and become a billionaire, the reason why their coins get lost is they think it's worthless so they didn't make any back up. Now when Bitcoin already worth for $20.000/each, many people already back up and tell their family about their private key.

That's the nature of precious metals, noble above all, almost all devices such as electronics use precious metals, everything created by the ruler of nature is useful for human life, not the same as Bitcoin created by humans, only useful for some humans, not all of them can feel Bitcoin, but precious metals, all of them.

What are you trying to say here? Would have been better if you explained a little what's happening on the video instead of making us go through the whole video.

But right now, at the current state, bitcoin is a store of value. People are using it more as a store of value than as a regular currency for making day to day transaction. Look at how many people are holding bitcoin and how many of them made a good fortune out of it. Maybe in the future when bitcoin and crypto currencies become main stream, people will use it as a regular currency.

This forum exists for more than a decade and there are still people, who keep comparing a programming code with precious metals.
Yes, there's no denying that gold and silver are being used as raw materials in some industries. And so what?
I don't see people using gold and silver coins to buy and sell goods, just like in antiquity/middle ages. The times have changed.
Copper, iron and bronze are also being used as raw materials. Does that make them store of value?
Bitcoin can't be used as a raw material. Bitcoin doesn't have the same utility as gold and silver. And so what?
Fiat money are a questionable store of value, but the majority of the people think that they are a store of value.
Can fiat money be used as a raw material? Do you think that they have an actual utility, other than being medium of exchange?

What a load of rubbish.

'A store of value is essentially an asset, commodity, or currency that can be saved, retrieved, and exchanged in the future without deteriorating in value'

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/storeofvalue.asp

Bitcoin is a store of value. We can discuss whether it is its main function or not. Whether it is more a medium of exchange than a store of value, but don't make a fool of yourself by insisting on this nonsense.


LMAO. Keep dreaming.

BTC is shit

BTC will switch to POS coming soon. Then it becomes double shit

Agree, because there is no comparison. 6,000+ years vs. a 14 yr old man made invention. Keeping in mind that EVERYTHING that man has ever created was built with underlying flaws, bitcoin is no exception.

People here like to try to call a crypto-CURRENCY a store of value, just correcting their mistakes.

I don't know what do you mean by yours words. But I think there shouldn't be any compare on gold , silver vs Bitcoin .Because they are individually valuable gold and silver in their separate places, they have been important assets for ages era's and I think they will not depreciate until the end of the world, but will increase in value. On the other hand Bitcoin was invented digitally just like fiat currency, so I think comparing Bitcoin to gold silver is completely foolish .

Gold is replaceable... With what exactly? 6000+ years of monetary history disagrees with you, and most other people posting here today.
All due respect, I personally prefer to follow the world banks and governments since they always manage to retain control (throughout history), and no offense to you, they are alot more organized and quite frankly, more intelligent than the herd mentality that you, and so many other people share today.

Gold is only formed when a star explodes, lets see you replicate that, or explain how? Tricked? Artificially scarce? I really don't care if you buy gold or bitcoin, however banks and governments prefer if you didn't buy gold... They would like to buy it instead, as they have all (ALL WORLD BANKS AND GOVERNMENTS) have been purchasing more reserves in record numbers than ever before. Maybe they know something that you don't? You think you can somehow become more powerful than a world government using a crypto-currency? Show me...

Value is relative, gold has MAINTAINED it's purchasing power, it offers stability in ANY AND ALL economic situations, that's a fact that the world governments and banks seem to be alot more privy to than you. What an ounce of gold purchased 2000 years ago it is still able to purchase the same today in terms of goods and services. If it could be replaced by something else, then why hasn't it?

Let's talk about artificial since you mentioned it... JP Morgan as well as numerous other banks have been artificially suppressing the price with paper derivatives. They have been brought up multiple times on price manipulation. They are keeping the physical price artificially low so they can buy up as much physical as possible. Meanwhile your government auctions off bitcoin... You think they are dumb, or you are somehow smarter than them? How come they don't see it as valuable as you and alot of other sheep today? I can't wait to see the look on your face when your left holding empty space...

Honestly, I would rather follow the people that manipulated you into thinking crypto currency is only used by criminals and can't be tracked, lets take a look at all the AML/KYC laws and then tell me your going to have economic freedom... First touted as a currency that the government can't track or tax, the taxes are coming due, make sure you file bro. Can't track my gold and silver though.

Then just leave it at BTC is a digital currency that fluctuates extremely verses Government Based FIAT money.

Quit the store of value nonsense,
so people don't put their kid's college fund in BTC , and then 1 month before the kid starts college ,
have to tell the kid they have to wait 5-10 years for BTC price to recover.  

BTC is a trip to Vegas, sometimes you win, sometimes you go home with nothing.
People that only hold BTC never prosper, they just die and their coins get lost.

We don't live in an alternate universe, we live in this one where gold and silver exists and will continue to exist and be used to manufacture electronics and we will continue using those electronics to create new innovations such as bitcoin.
In other words your arguments are moot.

This is why bitcoin was invented as a currency not a store of value. It can and is being used as a medium of exchange and only to some extent it can act as a store of value when you look at it from a long term perspective and ignore the short term volatility.

I completely agree with your prospective, Bitcoin is not a commodity, it's an ever evolving innovation. There is not limit to application of innovation. Infact applicability is the value of Bitcoin. Looking at the current and future prospective, I think value of Bitcoin is only going to shoot up..

Agree.  What started out as a medium of exchange also added a store of value under its belt, due to the belief of the maximalists and old coiners who believe beyond the medium of exchange and figured they had something very special on their hands.  This belief wound up spreading like wildfire.  At one time 10,000 Bitcoins bought you a pizza, now even in a down time would be close to 200 million.

Is someone trying to trick you into thinking gold is a store of value?

Someone mined that gold and the miner of it or its designer ate food.

Gold is replaceable, most things are replaceable. You can't say something an store value when it's value has dropped in real terms since 2012 - we're around 2012 prices minus inflation. Gold can be replaced with copper and silver fairly easily when it needs to be. Platinum also makes for a good alternative to gold (along with many other metals).

Don't be tricked into buying something that's over inflated and artificially physically scarce. Find something like a business to actually invest in instead if you want to protect your wealth - most assets are risky buys though so remember to diversify where reasonable.

Electronics buy and large all require silver and gold for their electrical conductivity properties that other metals cannot compete with when it comes to size and efficiency, if you choose lets say copper for example to replace silver, your electronic equipment would be roughly 11% larger and heavier and 7% less energy efficient. Lets try replacing mining equipment with copper instead of silver, and tell me how much more space would be required, and how much less efficient the equipment would be. The same basic principle applies across the board for all electronics, as you mentioned there won't be a perfect outcome. However, supply and demand dictate that consumers the world over require efficiency.

Case and point, people demand compact, efficient devices. It's general supply and demand. Sure bitcoin is scarce relative to other cryptocurrencies to some degree, but what happens to the value if the infrastructure becomes highly inefficient (which it is if you look at how much energy it consumes in order to compute each block today). It was a great idea, but physically speaking you cannot hold on to it. Take into account power or internet outages that are ongoing (which is the case in alot of countries suffering from economic poverty), what's it worth at that point when you cannot send or receive payments? What's the solution? Additionally, what if consumer electronic devices are too expensive for everyday people to afford, how will they transact?

Store of value can only be experienced through long term value stability. Bitcoin is unpredictable, and volatile. If and when it becomes stable (price wise), then and only then does it earn the right to be declared "store of value".

What you're trying to convey. TV, computers and phones were the store of value. There is a difference between store of value and the devices. Innovation doesn't have limits, if gold and silver weren't found we could've made the same innovative devices with something else for sure. Maybe we don't get the perfect outcome as gold and silver, but there'll be a solution for it.

The rare availability makes it more valuable, with bitcoin the limited supply makes it more valueable. Being a store of value is simple, as bitcoin carries a value it is considered as store of value. Even if the credit goes to gold and silver it isn't a big thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41GPPhLkhI&t=30s

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.