bitcoin mining and your electrical outlets

spazzdla

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on June 03, 2015, 01:10:33 PM

Quote from: spazzdla on June 03, 2015, 10:56:24 AM

If your power isn't very good, I recommend buying a UPS. It will protect your power supply during brown outs and spikes. Also it will keep your miner running during very short power blips.

I had two power supplies blow.. my computer would keep restarting as I get like 10-20 brown outs a day.. UPS = golden fix. Gotta keep that power smooth!!!

On miners and UPS's... Miners do NOT like yer normal PC stand-by UPS's. Been there, tried that with several different makes. Even with a miners PSU at 1/2 load every one I tried caused the miner to hang when they switch or adjusted the voltage. Reason is the relay switch transfer time which for most UPS's is spec'd at <10ms. That blip is long enough to often cause a big enough dip in the 12v output to lockup the controller. Sad

If you are going to uses a UPS is MUST be what is called a on-line UPS. Less efficient as they are always 'on' changing AC>DC>AC but there is zero transfer time. For several of my S4's and S2's I use http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/paragon-series/ol2200rtxl2u.html Pricey? Yes. However, are rock-solid.

btw, the s2's & 4's are the only ones on UPS's. When spiked (well, dipped really) they can be (are) the most susceptible to the sd card getting munged.. S3's and s5's just hang so the majority of the farm is not on UPS's. Waayyy too expensive to do that.

Very solid point, it has to use transistors or the switching time is just WAY to long.

I needed one for my computer lol. It kept kicking it and the miner offline so I got two, one for the comp one for the miner. It's an S3.

NotFuzzyWarm

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Evil beware: We have waffles!

Quote from: spazzdla on June 03, 2015, 10:56:24 AM

If your power isn't very good, I recommend buying a UPS. It will protect your power supply during brown outs and spikes. Also it will keep your miner running during very short power blips.

I had two power supplies blow.. my computer would keep restarting as I get like 10-20 brown outs a day.. UPS = golden fix. Gotta keep that power smooth!!!

On miners and UPS's... Miners do NOT like yer normal PC stand-by UPS's. Been there, tried that with several different makes. Even with a miners PSU at 1/2 load every one I tried caused the miner to hang when they switch or adjusted the voltage. Reason is the relay switch transfer time which for most UPS's is spec'd at <10ms. That blip is long enough to often cause a big enough dip in the 12v output to lockup the controller. Sad

If you are going to uses a UPS is MUST be what is called a on-line UPS. Less efficient as they are always 'on' changing AC>DC>AC but there is zero transfer time. For several of my S4's and S2's I use http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/paragon-series/ol2200rtxl2u.html Pricey? Yes. However, are rock-solid.

btw, the s2's & 4's are the only ones on UPS's. When spiked (well, dipped really) they can be (are) the most susceptible to the sd card getting munged.. S3's and s5's just hang so the majority of the farm is not on UPS's. Waayyy too expensive to do that.

MCHouston

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Where am I?

I run a lot of miners out of my house, I use #10 wire for 30A, #12 wire for 20A, and #14 wire for 15A. If you are at 80%+ load on a standard outlet you maybe see melting or yellow especially if it is a 20A circuit as I can almost guarantee you have 15A outlets. I would go get some Heavy Duty 20A outlets and upgrade them, these are made for that kind of load and will hold up.

Hope this helps.

polymer_city

member

Activity: 98

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Not recommended to run a lot of power of a circuit you haven't checked / wired yourself!!

I ran all my outlets in 6mm2 cable, and ran 16mm2 armoured to the 40amp RCD! If its hot / melting or alike do not keep mining!!!

spazzdla

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Activity: 1722

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If your power isn't very good, I recommend buying a UPS. It will protect your power supply during brown outs and spikes. Also it will keep your miner running during very short power blips.

I had two power supplies blow.. my computer would keep restarting as I get like 10-20 brown outs a day.. UPS = golden fix. Gotta keep that power smooth!!!

spazzdla

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Activity: 1722

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Quote from: wh00per on June 01, 2015, 08:42:46 AM

Quote from: Zich on June 01, 2015, 05:21:40 AM

Quote from: Unacceptable on May 29, 2015, 05:14:50 PM

Most outlets are wired in series,main wires come in to one outlet,then go back up the wall & over to the next outlet.
Sometimes as many as 4 outlets on a single line.
......

I believe they are in parallel, not series.

Quite parallel, but they can be daisy-chained .. with a load at the end socket and improper contacts in-between, all sockets will go hot.

.. kind of what you see here:

One reason to do maintenance at least once a year.

You are paralleling them when you are "Daisy-chaining" them. It's paralleling not daisy-chaining for the technical term.. lol. It's really the same thing.

HOWEVER, I highly highly higly recommend NEVER EVER EVER EVER doing what that picture shows, ever ever ever. EVER! NEVER DO THAT EVER.

spazzdla

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Quote from: Unacceptable on May 29, 2015, 05:14:50 PM

Most outlets are wired in series,main wires come in to one outlet,then go back up the wall & over to the next outlet.

Sometimes as many as 4 outlets on a single line.

You need to remove the cover & look inside,unless the wires are "pushed" in the back of the outlet(you may need to pull the outlet out),to see if the line goes back out.

Also,most outlets are rated for 15 amps or less.You can upgrade your outlets to 20 amp models.

Standard 15amp outlet:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Duplex-Outlet-White-R52-05320-00W/202066670

20amp outlet:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-Commercial-Duplex-Power-Outlet-White-R62-CBR20-00W/202066702

Not a single outlet on the planet is wired in series.... they are all wired in parallel.

OP, clean the connection between the wire and the outlet.

Zich

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Activity: 1190

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Quote from: wh00per on June 01, 2015, 08:42:46 AM

Quote from: Zich on June 01, 2015, 05:21:40 AM

Quote from: Unacceptable on May 29, 2015, 05:14:50 PM

Most outlets are wired in series,main wires come in to one outlet,then go back up the wall & over to the next outlet.
Sometimes as many as 4 outlets on a single line.
......

I believe they are in parallel, not series.

Quite parallel, but they can be daisy-chained .. with a load at the end socket and improper contacts in-between, all sockets will go hot.

.. kind of what you see here:

One reason to do maintenance at least once a year.

Whoo, that's fire hazard Cheesy

First outlet wire will be burn in no time.

notlist3d

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Quote from: jermwerty on June 01, 2015, 06:45:34 PM

I think the biggest concern is how MUCH power you are putting through a circuit.

I added 5x20A circuits to my garage with very short 12GA wire runs. The only things I have had melt were when I was running 1200W through a single plug. I try to keep my power strips running 600-800W max - remember home-use power strips are only 15A and you really want to load them @ 50%!

I would agree that some run to much power throgh wires. I have read some with S4+ on 120 with a little higher amp breaker. This is extremely scary as they do not change the gauge cable that is ran to the miner through their house or where ever it is.

I personally make sure not to run to much throw low quality wires. Even had new wire put in a area for summer mining, and it will expand during winter,

jermwerty

sr. member

Activity: 472

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I think the biggest concern is how MUCH power you are putting through a circuit.

I added 5x20A circuits to my garage with very short 12GA wire runs. The only things I have had melt were when I was running 1200W through a single plug. I try to keep my power strips running 600-800W max - remember home-use power strips are only 15A and you really want to load them @ 50%!

wh00per

hero member

Activity: 572

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Quote from: Zich on June 01, 2015, 05:21:40 AM

Quote from: Unacceptable on May 29, 2015, 05:14:50 PM

Most outlets are wired in series,main wires come in to one outlet,then go back up the wall & over to the next outlet.
Sometimes as many as 4 outlets on a single line.
......

I believe they are in parallel, not series.

Quite parallel, but they can be daisy-chained .. with a load at the end socket and improper contacts in-between, all sockets will go hot.

.. kind of what you see here:

One reason to do maintenance at least once a year.

Finksy

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Activity: 1022

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Quote from: quakefiend420 on May 29, 2015, 07:13:04 PM

If you're going to run a lot of gear it's advisable to look into dedicated 240V drops with enterprise class PDUs connected to them, they're designed for that sort of load 24/7, home outlets/wiring are not. I spent about $500 to have an electrician install a subpanel and two 30A continuous rated PDUs, I can run 12KW of gear and still be quite safe. Then the only issue is dealing with the heat. Well worth it.

This. On top of peace of mind, you end up with more efficient hardware and in IMO less PSU failures. I've converted dishwasher & dryer circuits to mining, as well as a 240v heater circuit In my office.

Zich

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Activity: 1190

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Quote from: Unacceptable on May 29, 2015, 05:14:50 PM

Most outlets are wired in series,main wires come in to one outlet,then go back up the wall & over to the next outlet.

Sometimes as many as 4 outlets on a single line.

......

I believe they are in parallel, not series.

notlist3d

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Activity: 1456

Merit: 1000

Quote from: jbrnt on May 30, 2015, 04:45:30 PM

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 04:53:54 PM

in addition, i had a supremely bizzarre occurrence when one outlet basically started melting without anything plugged in.
It could be a spontaneous short, I just don't see how this short could have developed. the plate became extremely hot and i could see something burning or at least red hot inside the outlet, so i had to cut the power.

The outlets in that room is probably daisy chained. Wires run from the fuse box to that outlet and then wired to the outlet with the miners plugged in. Current drawn from your miners goes through the copper plates in that empty outlet. The connection behind that outlet is probably not very good and contacts are getting hot. You should check that connection/wires and replace that outlet immediately.

It is very common for daisy chain on electrical boxes. Heck today's plugs are built for it most have indents for daisy chaining on 110/120 outlets. When the electrician puts them in they save time and wire by chaining a lot of a room together sharing a breaker.

It kinda is one of those thinngs you get what you pay for (in most cases). In my new addition to a family farm house he was paid by the hour.... and well I have a decent amount that he could have daisy chained but instead ran another line. I think I have 3 or 4 in separate one's in back living room.

Then look at nice garage + work area that was built later. It was a bid. And well the second story the electrician daisy chained the heck of it. At first glance you would go wow there are a lot of plugs.... but they go to same breaker. I had to add extra new outlets to new breakers to allow miners in it.

So paying per hour/job is one factor that kinda decides it.

jbrnt

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Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 04:53:54 PM

in addition, i had a supremely bizzarre occurrence when one outlet basically started melting without anything plugged in.
It could be a spontaneous short, I just don't see how this short could have developed. the plate became extremely hot and i could see something burning or at least red hot inside the outlet, so i had to cut the power.

The outlets in that room is probably daisy chained. Wires run from the fuse box to that outlet and then wired to the outlet with the miners plugged in. Current drawn from your miners goes through the copper plates in that empty outlet. The connection behind that outlet is probably not very good and contacts are getting hot. You should check that connection/wires and replace that outlet immediately.

notlist3d

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Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 11:36:02 PM

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 06:23:39 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 06:20:01 PM

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 05:32:22 PM

Lastly are your inside the wall wires 12 gauge?

Not 100% sure, but I think that all 15A outlets are wired with 14 gauge instead of 12, which I think was what prevented me to change outlets from 15A to 20A before.
I am not sure about outlets on 20A circuit, but i suspect that they are also 14 gauge, but I never run more than 12.5A on any outlet anyway.

14 gauge is the issue long (120 days) runs cause issues with them. be careful .

Interesting-what exactly did you observe re long runs and 14 gauge? i assume that you had some experience.

sure works like this. you are on the edge of safety and wires slowly warm just below detection levels. So 30 days no issues but since you are just under the margin of error. the wire coating degrade all the plastics degrade.

Kind of like you pasteurize milk at 145 vs boiling it.

Or slow cook a steak at 145 f for 16 hours . It looks pink yet it is cooked.

The plastics do the same. I have mined in house 24/7/1000 basically 1000 days in a row until last month.and Hurricane Sandy knocked me out for 3 days.

I had issues like this with 14 gauge wire in walls and extension cords. I have had more then one socket turn color.

A second factor is it is warmer outside and the home is warmer so all the wires get warmer.

You mention a good point on extension cables. I almost learned the hardway on that. I used a nice extension cord but was not big enough gauge it got hot and I could feel it almost to melting point. Scary as heck I unplugged it right away.

I ended up buying a huge gauge extension cord and used it after. (Funny thing was it was meant for Christmas stuff but this cord is massive and never had a problem with it).

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 06:23:39 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 06:20:01 PM

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 05:32:22 PM

Lastly are your inside the wall wires 12 gauge?

Not 100% sure, but I think that all 15A outlets are wired with 14 gauge instead of 12, which I think was what prevented me to change outlets from 15A to 20A before.
I am not sure about outlets on 20A circuit, but i suspect that they are also 14 gauge, but I never run more than 12.5A on any outlet anyway.

14 gauge is the issue long (120 days) runs cause issues with them. be careful .

Interesting-what exactly did you observe re long runs and 14 gauge? i assume that you had some experience.

sure works like this. you are on the edge of safety and wires slowly warm just below detection levels. So 30 days no issues but since you are just under the margin of error. the wire coating degrade all the plastics degrade.

Kind of like you pasteurize milk at 145 vs boiling it.

Or slow cook a steak at 145 f for 16 hours . It looks pink yet it is cooked.

The plastics do the same. I have mined in house 24/7/1000 basically 1000 days in a row until last month.and Hurricane Sandy knocked me out for 3 days.

I had issues like this with 14 gauge wire in walls and extension cords. I have had more then one socket turn color.

A second factor is it is warmer outside and the home is warmer so all the wires get warmer.

notlist3d

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Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 04:53:54 PM

after >15 mo of pretty much constant mining in the house I noticed the following:

1. wall outlets with constant current draw (even at permissible 12.5A for 15A outlet) has changed color to brown and I see some plastic partially melted on the outside of the outlet plug.
2. i think that I also saw some sparks from "mining" outlets during thunder-strikes that kicked the power out

in addition, i had a supremely bizzarre occurrence when one outlet basically started melting without anything plugged in.
It could be a spontaneous short, I just don't see how this short could have developed. the plate became extremely hot and i could see something burning or at least red hot inside the outlet, so i had to cut the power.

My point is-be safe with mining equipment and electricity. i was surprised that even a supposedly safe outlet could basically put you in danger.

Add a nice surge protector if you are seeing sparks during thunder strikes. That is scary as heck. I would get a electrician to come look at it. As if that is a constant that should not be happening.

On outlet becoming brown use nicer outlets. If cheap or not rated for it it can cause problems. I partially melted a kill-a-watt from being on a S4 around a month. I didnt move it, but it was not made for that amount for a month. So I have a little brown on my kill-a-watt. After this I have been more conscious.

quakefiend420

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If you're going to run a lot of gear it's advisable to look into dedicated 240V drops with enterprise class PDUs connected to them, they're designed for that sort of load 24/7, home outlets/wiring are not. I spent about $500 to have an electrician install a subpanel and two 30A continuous rated PDUs, I can run 12KW of gear and still be quite safe. Then the only issue is dealing with the heat. Well worth it.

denisbaldwin

newbie

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As part of my mining operation, I switched all of my outlets that were in use to 20AMP outlets with 20amp single pole breakers behind them. I haven't popped one since the upgrade.

Denis

Biodom

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Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 06:20:01 PM

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 05:32:22 PM

Lastly are your inside the wall wires 12 gauge?

Not 100% sure, but I think that all 15A outlets are wired with 14 gauge instead of 12, which I think was what prevented me to change outlets from 15A to 20A before.
I am not sure about outlets on 20A circuit, but i suspect that they are also 14 gauge, but I never run more than 12.5A on any outlet anyway.

14 gauge is the issue long (120 days) runs cause issues with them. be careful .

Interesting-what exactly did you observe re long runs and 14 gauge? i assume that you had some experience.

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4256

Merit: 8551

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Biodom on May 29, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 05:32:22 PM

Lastly are your inside the wall wires 12 gauge?

Not 100% sure, but I think that all 15A outlets are wired with 14 gauge instead of 12, which I think was what prevented me to change outlets from 15A to 20A before.
I am not sure about outlets on 20A circuit, but i suspect that they are also 14 gauge, but I never run more than 12.5A on any outlet anyway.

14 gauge is the issue long (120 days) runs cause issues with them. be careful .

Biodom

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Merit: 4331

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 29, 2015, 05:32:22 PM

Lastly are your inside the wall wires 12 gauge?

Not 100% sure, but I think that all 15A outlets are wired with 14 gauge instead of 12, which I think was what prevented me to change outlets from 15A to 20A before.
I am not sure about outlets on 20A circuits, but i suspect that they are also 14 gauge, but I never run more than 12.5A on any outlet anyway.

Biodom

legendary

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Merit: 4331

Quote from: dunand on May 29, 2015, 05:16:38 PM

A wall outlet should not be hot to the touch or change color.

of course

The case of "burning inside" outlet with nothing plugged in is especially bizarre.
I will open it up tomorrow and take a look

philipma1957

legendary

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'The right to privacy matters'

Constant mining beyond 150 days your house and the ground under it start to act like 1 massive heat sink.

Turn all gear off for 3 days and check all outlets that = brown/yellow

also consider some 20 amp plugs

white will show yellowing faster.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-Commercial-Duplex-Power-Outlet-White-R62-CBR20-00W/202066702

Lastly are your inside the wall wires 12 gauge?

dunand

hero member

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A wall outlet should not be hot to the touch or change color.

Unacceptable

legendary

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Most outlets are wired in series,main wires come in to one outlet,then go back up the wall & over to the next outlet.

Sometimes as many as 4 outlets on a single line.

You need to remove the cover & look inside,unless the wires are "pushed" in the back of the outlet(you may need to pull the outlet out),to see if the line goes back out.

Also,most outlets are rated for 15 amps or less.You can upgrade your outlets to 20 amp models.

Standard 15amp outlet:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Duplex-Outlet-White-R52-05320-00W/202066670

20amp outlet:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-Commercial-Duplex-Power-Outlet-White-R62-CBR20-00W/202066702

Biodom

legendary

Activity: 3892

Merit: 4331

after >15 mo of pretty much constant mining in the house I noticed the following:

1. wall outlets with constant current draw (even at permissible 12.5A for 15A outlet) has changed color to brown and I see some plastic partially melted on the outside of the outlet plug.
2. i think that I also saw some sparks from "mining" outlets during thunder-strikes that kicked the power out

in addition, i had a supremely bizzarre occurrence when one outlet basically started melting without anything plugged in.
It could be a spontaneous short, I just don't see how this short could have developed. the plate became extremely hot and i could see something burning or at least red hot inside the outlet, so i had to cut the power.

My point is-be safe with mining equipment and electricity. i was surprised that even a supposedly safe outlet could basically put you in danger.

Topic: bitcoin mining and your electrical outlets (Read 3216 times)