Author

Topic: Bitcoin securities (Read 2145 times)

legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
July 09, 2013, 07:51:26 AM
#27
I don't know why people are paying 88% the same price for the same thing for BFMINES by fuku when it doesn't pay divs until Metabank ships?Huh

One reason is that the bonus dividends in BFMines represents 15-20% higher dividends for the first six months. If you think Metabank delivers above specs, this bonus is even higher. All ASICs delivered seem to trend towards a higher spec to account for any performance issues. For example the AM blades and sticks hash at 30% over spec, and if the Metabank miner does the same, the bonus will be around 50% more than advertised.

Another reason can be that BFMines minues the bonus trades at less than TAT.VM minus the dividends expected until BFMines starts. Depending on how you predict difficulty change, TAT.VM is expected to mine 0.001178 until BFMines comes online. If this estimate is correct (and I've shown why this isn't relevant), the bonus for BFMines will at a minimum be 0.000535. The real cost of TAT.VM compared to BFMines is thus 0.001178 lower and BFMines is 0.000535 lower. That means that at this moment, BFMines is cheaper.

A third reason is that, unlike TAT.VM and DMS.Mining, for example, BFMines does actual mining, meaning it also produces transaction fees. Right now, transaction fees are around 1.1% of the mining income, but if Bitcoin grows, the transaction fees will likely follow, thus making output from BFMines higher than from TAT.VM.

.b

Fuku thanks for responding. After posting I read the updates on your blog and was starting to digest the other factors. A bit confusing, but interesting nonetheless.

Interesting if you are providing all extra hash over spec as well. That could be big.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
July 08, 2013, 09:33:21 PM
#26
I don't know why people are paying 88% the same price for the same thing for BFMINES by fuku when it doesn't pay divs until Metabank ships?Huh

One reason is that the bonus dividends in BFMines represents 15-20% higher dividends for the first six months. If you think Metabank delivers above specs, this bonus is even higher. All ASICs delivered seem to trend towards a higher spec to account for any performance issues. For example the AM blades and sticks hash at 30% over spec, and if the Metabank miner does the same, the bonus will be around 50% more than advertised.

Another reason can be that BFMines minues the bonus trades at less than TAT.VM minus the dividends expected until BFMines starts. Depending on how you predict difficulty change, TAT.VM is expected to mine 0.001178 until BFMines comes online. If this estimate is correct (and I've shown why this isn't relevant), the bonus for BFMines will at a minimum be 0.000535. The real cost of TAT.VM compared to BFMines is thus 0.001178 lower and BFMines is 0.000535 lower. That means that at this moment, BFMines is cheaper.

A third reason is that, unlike TAT.VM and DMS.Mining, for example, BFMines does actual mining, meaning it also produces transaction fees. Right now, transaction fees are around 1.1% of the mining income, but if Bitcoin grows, the transaction fees will likely follow, thus making output from BFMines higher than from TAT.VM.

.b
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
July 08, 2013, 06:37:01 PM
#25

I don't know why people are paying 88% the same price for the same thing for BFMINES by fuku when it doesn't pay divs until Metabank ships?Huh

Once people realize it's going to be a while before BF receives its miners, the IPO buyers are going to start dumping the shares for a loss. It's already starting to slip a bit under the IPO price and that's only going to continue.

People around here have a very short attention span
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
July 08, 2013, 04:34:40 PM
#24
For the OP:

1 mhz should only pay back about .15-.2 USD considering difficulty increase.

This makes VIRTUALMINE by TAT about double what it's worth.

I don't know why people are paying 88% the same price for the same thing for BFMINES by fuku when it doesn't pay divs until Metabank ships?Huh
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Bitgoblin
July 08, 2013, 10:00:46 AM
#23
so maby sometime between 2035-2037 or so there will be no more coins to mine.
Transaction fees.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 08, 2013, 09:27:35 AM
#22
Actually the projected time for all coins to be mined out is approximately 130(ish) years.
The official time is that the coins should be all mined out around 2140, but as the hashrate for a majority of time will be higher than the avg rate the previous 14 days or the difficulty will be raising most of the time, therefore there will be a slight overproduction of coins. 2016 blocks will be produced faster than every 14 days on avg so it will probably take quite a bit less than 27 years to produce all the remaining coins, so maby sometime between 2035-2037 or so there will be no more coins to mine.
That will not happen. It might be maybe 1-3 years before, with the current difficulty adjustment it would not be practical for all the coins to be mined 8x faster?

I think you're both right, although TF is right for better reasons.

The block reward will almost certainly halve beneath 1 satoshi / block (this being the definition of the end of the block reward) before the standard projected dates. However, we are still very early in the ASIC era and are seeing the sorts of exponential changes in network hashrate / difficulty that are absolutely impossible to maintain. The hashrate will continue to grow parabolically only until the network is saturated with ASICs - at which point the gains will become incremental as we just add new hardware of the same type onto the network. Generational upgrades to the ASIC infrastructure will provide a sort of leg-up to the hash-rate only occasionally, and with diminishing returns.

Jumping from 128 to 65nm, for example, will improve GH/J but probably wouldn't improve GH/btc on the initial purchase point (at least) - and we're absolutely nowhere near knowing the life expectancy of these chips, but a cursory glance at relevant journal articles such as this one would seem to indicate that sub-130nm chips have a much shorter life expectancy than what people might be thinking. This would be a much better business case for hardware sales than mining, to be sure.

Growth in network hash-rate is going to get off the parabolic rocketship at some point and flatten out into slower growth and incremental improvements. Once we reach this point we will stop seeing 6-8minute average time to block for a difficulty period and start getting closer to 8-10 minutes, I expect. This may not happen for quite a while, of course, at least from the perspective of most in this community.

This is all somewhat irrelevant, however, which is why thy was still somewhat correct.

While the block reward will last for quite a while yet, the real question is how long will it remain meaningful.

75% of all Bitcoin that will ever exist will exist at the time of the second (next) halving. 87.5% of all Bitcoin that will ever exist will exist at the time of the third halving. This process will only continue, and we will have issued >99% of all Bitcoin that will ever exist at the time of the 6th halving sometime before 2033.

What some have observed is that, regardless of this, all coins that actually are in circulation will continue to cycle through the blockchain forever - with some small % of them being paid to miner's as fees. Many have previously noted that the fees will need to out-weigh the block reward itself eventually, however most people tend to talk about this as 'what happens after the end of the block reward'. This will actually need to happen much sooner than that.

At the moment the average fee per block is, interestingly, almost exactly 0.1 BTC - I get this by dividing the trailing 24-hour fees (19.24 BTC) by the number of blocks (192) on blockchain.info. At this rate, even with no change in fees the block reward would drop below the current fee at the 9th halving sometime before 2044.



I guess my only real point is that the minting of new coins is mostly irrelevant to the long-term prospects of miners.

note: thy added to the discussion since I started writing this but I can't really be bothered to edit.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
"Ignorance never settles a question."
July 08, 2013, 09:01:50 AM
#21
litecoinglobal.com  ciphermine shares for LTC  Google news search it.
thy
hero member
Activity: 685
Merit: 500
July 08, 2013, 08:53:01 AM
#20
Actually the projected time for all coins to be mined out is approximately 130(ish) years.
The official time is that the coins should be all mined out around 2140, but as the hashrate for a majority of time will be higher than the avg rate the previous 14 days or the difficulty will be raising most of the time, therefore there will be a slight overproduction of coins. 2016 blocks will be produced faster than every 14 days on avg so it will probably take quite a bit less than 27 years to produce all the remaining coins, so maby sometime between 2035-2037 or so there will be no more coins to mine.
That will not happen. It might be maybe 1-3 years before, with the current difficulty adjustment it would not be practical for all the coins to be mined 8x faster?

Oups, saw my misstake, i thought coins was supposed to run out in 2040 not 2140....
lets say sometime between 2118 and 2129 then instead, thats quite some time to keep mining coins then, not that people will produce any significant amounts of new coins the last years there thou...
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
July 08, 2013, 08:31:54 AM
#19
Actually the projected time for all coins to be mined out is approximately 130(ish) years.
The official time is that the coins should be all mined out around 2140, but as the hashrate for a majority of time will be higher than the avg rate the previous 14 days or the difficulty will be raising most of the time, therefore there will be a slight overproduction of coins. 2016 blocks will be produced faster than every 14 days on avg so it will probably take quite a bit less than 27 years to produce all the remaining coins, so maby sometime between 2035-2037 or so there will be no more coins to mine.
That will not happen. It might be maybe 1-3 years before, with the current difficulty adjustment it would not be practical for all the coins to be mined 8x faster?
thy
hero member
Activity: 685
Merit: 500
July 08, 2013, 08:21:22 AM
#18
Actually the projected time for all coins to be mined out is approximately 130(ish) years.
The official time is that the coins should be all mined out around 2140, but as the hashrate for a majority of time will be higher than the avg rate the previous 14 days or the difficulty will be raising most of the time, therefore there will be a slight overproduction of coins. 2016 blocks will be produced faster than every 14 days on avg so it will probably take quite a bit less than 27 years to produce all the remaining coins, so maby sometime between 2035-2037 or so there will be no more coins to mine.
full member
Activity: 179
Merit: 100
Bitcoin: money chosen by the market.
July 08, 2013, 08:07:22 AM
#17
I bought some more mining shares then. And may god have mercy on my soul.  Cry

Recommend you read this thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/securities-newbie-help-me-invest-212021

It covers some important topics and details various points of view.

Caveat Emptor!  Cheesy

-MikeMark

hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 08, 2013, 05:12:01 AM
#16
I bought some more mining shares then. And may god have mercy on my soul.  Cry
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
July 07, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
#15
Actually, if you take a look here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_central_bank_interest_rates you'll see that many inflation ridden countries have very high central bank interest rates.

Yields are greater in BTC because of the risk in investments - you can't dispute that it is risker to invest in BTC. Some of the risks are about Bitcoin itself, as well as the regulatory barriers. BTCUSD can also be very unpredictable. Sure, you might get 25% more BTC in a year, but what if BTCUSD halves doing that year? The instability adds a premium for those who want real returns.

Not the mention the CP risk - I minimize CP risk for CoinLenders by doing everything myself, but all PTs carry a CP risk of the PT issuer, AND the exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Science!
July 07, 2013, 06:06:04 PM
#14
Interesting and informaive.

You described coinlenders returns as excessive in a previous post. Do you mean you think they are unsustainable>

No, I didn't mean unsustainable—Coinlenders adjusts the yield on their deposits and their fixed term CDs based on expected income. I just meant 25% APR is an unbelievable return on investment in real world banking investments.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 07, 2013, 05:06:14 PM
#13
Interesting and informaive.

You described coinlenders returns as excessive in a previous post. Do you mean you think they are unsustainable>
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Science!
July 07, 2013, 04:40:57 PM
#12
Thanks, very helpful.

So do you think I'll eventually get my money (coins) back with asic-pt through dividends?

That is a less important question than it would be if you we're buying a mining bond (a certain amount of hashing power)—with ASICMINER, buying shares means you believe that they will continue meet their mining targets and distribute high dividends (>25% APR dividend/share price). If they meet their targets, then the shares should hold their value and you will have earned substantial dividends. If targets are not net, shares may lose value, and you would have been better off investing in a Coinlenders CD, which—barring Coinlenders defaulting—would return your initial investment plus 25% APR yield.
full member
Activity: 490
Merit: 101
FRX: Ferocious Alpha
July 07, 2013, 04:39:32 PM
#11
Thanks Rannasha

I think the companies shares will eventually go to zero because all the coins will be mined. That could be in as little as 10 years as I understand it.

That is a drawback compared to regualar equities. Google could be around in 20 years. None of those mining companies will.

This is not the way to look at it when you consider transaction fees.  When you understand mining at its whole, check back

Sorry double post
full member
Activity: 490
Merit: 101
FRX: Ferocious Alpha
July 07, 2013, 04:38:56 PM
#10
Thanks Rannasha

I think the companies shares will eventually go to zero because all the coins will be mined. That could be in as little as 10 years as I understand it.

That is a drawback compared to regualar equities. Google could be around in 20 years. None of those mining companies will.

This is not the way to look at it when you consider transaction fees.  When you understand mining at its whole, check back
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 07, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
#9
Actually the projected time for all coins to be mined out is approximately 130(ish) years.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 07, 2013, 03:48:30 PM
#8
Thanks Rannasha

I think the companies shares will eventually go to zero because all the coins will be mined. That could be in as little as 10 years as I understand it.

That is a drawback compared to regualar equities. Google could be around in 20 years. None of those mining companies will.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
July 07, 2013, 02:14:33 PM
#7
Thanks, very helpful.

So do you think I'll eventually get my money (coins) back with asic-pt through dividends?

That's the million dollar (or BTC) question.

ASICMiner currently pays dividends around 0.5% of share price per week, which means it'll take 4 years to get the money back from dividends. On the other hand, if the company keeps doing okay, the resale price of the shares won't go to zero, so you won't need to regain all your investment with dividends.

What price is right for ASICMiner (or other stocks) is extremely hard to say.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 07, 2013, 02:11:17 PM
#6
Thanks, very helpful.

So do you think I'll eventually get my money (coins) back with asic-pt through dividends?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Science!
July 07, 2013, 10:26:20 AM
#5
Personally, I think the best values on the bitcoin market are the big dogs SD and AM and then BTCQuick. Unfortunately all are vulnerable to competition.

The barriers to entry for mining operations are becoming lower; however, competition is a good indication that a business is doing something worth imitating—I caution you, though, past success is not always a good indicator of how well a business will respond to competition. A mining operation that outperforms its mining share target is able to then sell hardware to competitors, thus reducing its share of mining profits to the targeted level but also raising new revenues through hardware sales. ASICMINER is a good example of a company well-poised to take on new competitors. ASICMINER holds hashing power in reserve while also setting a lower than capacity mining share target. This allows ASICMINER to create an enhanced barrier to entry for other large mining operations by: (1) increasing the mining difficulty by providing hardware to solo miners, (2) holding power in reserve to see off the efforts of burgeoning new challengers, and (3) developing but holding new technology in reserve to maintain high resale prices for its older technology (which could easily be devalued by immediate roll-out of newer, faster technology).

ASICMINER is at the top of the pile, but its share price carries a high premium. I don't think ASICMINER profits or value are likely to increase wildly because of the strategic principles I outlined—however, it still remains the bitcoin blue chip security because of its high dividends to share price ratio which competes with even Coinlenders excessive +25%APR on Deposits.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 07, 2013, 09:51:40 AM
#4

"SD and AM and then BTCQuick." Not sure what these are. AM is AMP-PT right?

I've been beaten up a bit with mining stocks and am thinking about leaving them alone. I don't really know that much about mining.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
July 07, 2013, 09:25:58 AM
#3
Personally, I think the best values on the bitcoin market are the big dogs SD and AM and then BTCQuick. Unfortunately all are vulnerable to competition.

legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
July 07, 2013, 09:24:07 AM
#2
Sure!
Plug them in here:

http://www.coinish.com/calc/

With that you can calculate share value for break-even based on variety of difficulty increases.

Amazingly, mining stocks are so beaten up right now they might even be a good investment (don't quote me)?

Check it out and let me know what you find out.

hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 07, 2013, 08:55:40 AM
#1
Hi all

I'm just making a post about mining shares. I realise that there is an area for this; marketplace/securities. However, most of the content in that area goes over my head and it tends to be discussing specific mining stocks whereas my post is more general.

Does anyone have a good way to asses the "value" of mining stocks. With regular equities price/earnings is an important attribute but what are the important attributes for mining stocks?

Anybody have success with mining stocks? What is your experience of them?
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