Author

Topic: Bitcoin statistics.Where are Bitcoins now? (Read 630 times)

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
January 03, 2025, 06:30:05 AM
#37
...
I agree with a lot of your reasoning about points that you are making @tiCeR especially when it comes to the difficulties of making inferences from the information that we know versus the information that we don't know, so no matter what, there is a lack of solid evidence if we are going to conclusively draw inferences on the non-movement of coins - yet at the same time, I largely come to the opposite conclusion as you in regards to my own thinking that the number of lost coins are likely higher than the estimates, and you seem to be coming to the conclusion that fewer coins are lost than the various inferences.
First, personally, I believe that Satoshi's coins are likely to be lost "on purpose."

Secondly, I believe that a lot of bitcoiners likely believe that they have coins, but they are not in a frequent of enough practice of accessing their coins to realize that they really don't have the coins that they believe that they have.

Third, I believe that a lot of folks are not very good at their plans of successorship, so many of them have not adequately communicated the successorship of their coins, and even if they have communicated such successorship, the form of their communication is not clear enough (or updated enough) in order for successors (namely heirs) to be adequately able to know about the quantity of their coins (and the various locations of such coins) and to access such coins.  Password management can be quite difficult, even when we are trying to recall our own accounts and/or locations of coins and other important things, so frequently if heirs are not even able to adequately figure out coins that a deceased person might have had, they might also not be ready, willing and/or able to spend time trying to figure out such puzzles...even something as simple as getting into the deceased person's laptop that may end up giving some clues, there can be difficulties getting in, and then also difficulties sorting through what information might be important, while perhaps attempting to preserve some of the privacy of the deceased person.

There may be deceased person personal papers in electronic form, in paper forum and even stashed away in various places (buried stamped steel plates that might not even have the whole seed in one place.. so having to put 2 or 3 parts together)

Fourth, - somewhat not related to lost coins, also consider the logistical problems of having someone technical (who might not be 100% honest) helping out a non-technical person, and if the person comes across information that reflects value or even bitcoin that can be irreversibly moved, and if such technical person comes accross life changing amounts of money that he considers himself to be more able to meaningfully spend as compared to a potentially undeserving and unknowing person who  is the rightful beneficiary, then surely there can be temptations to move some or all of such coins to their own self-custody, yet theft of coins still would not be the same as lost coins, since in this kind of a case, the coins would just end up going to someone who took the coins... and sure maybe he does not take all the coins, so he ends up splitting the pot or maybe even retaining some control over the coins when he might transfer the coins to the intended beneficiary.
JJG, I actually found out I like your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, scheme quite a lot. I am not making fun of you. It is how you invite someone else to comment on positions in a structured way, absolutely phenomenal.

First, this is the most unfounded speculation ever. I agree with many things you say, but everyone who has had an interest in secret operations and so on, must come to the conclusion that nobody knows whether these coins are still "alive", you included. Sorry to take this step, but you included. Think about past operations, it would be stupid to outrule possibilities.

I doubt that my statement "outrules possibilities," since I am largely stating my inclinations on the topic.  I did not even proclaim whatever level of probabilities I would assign to various possible alternatives, since I doubt that those kinds of particulars matter at this point in time. .and such bridge would need to be crossed if something (facts and/or logic) around the probabilities were to change.

Secondly, ok this I don't know. I think you are onto something here, I just don't know the magnitude. I think here in this specific case as described by you, in the lower percentage rate, but still. There are lost coins, but I would be surpirsed if somebody didn't check their wallets when they saw the news that BTC crossed $100k.

Of course, there are so many variables, so surely this is a working hypothesis... which is also subject to possible change.. and so surely every day (or at least periodically) there will be guys who are able to reconfirm that they still have access to their coins (whether by luck or crook, who knows?), and there will be guys who go to attempt to access their coins and realize that they no longer have access and there will be guys who pass away (or otherwise become disabled or mentally incapacitated in regards to their keys) which may contribute towards whatever peril ends from their way of holding their keys.

Third, I fully agree. This can be a big one. Shortcut here: explaining siblings how to handle things, it is a nightmare if they have never had anything to do with bitcoin. Yes, you are so right about this.

Again, a lot of scenarios... various levels of trust and mistrust...and maybe even sometimes could be easily resolved, but ends up procrastinating until "too late" to resolve/clarify.

Fourth, I gave a warning to a relative who told me that a friend would manage her BTC issues. I think there is nothing to add. However, for the folks reading this, do not transmit any access to anyone you can't 100% trust. Now figure out how many people in life you 100% trust.

Some people might seem 100% trustable at time A, but then death/incapacitation happens at time B..  so then such previously trusted person is put in a position to "do the right thing," yet such person knows enough to know that no one else knows, so is such person going to do the right thing, or not?  Maybe the person does not even know, until put in such circumstances of considerable amounts of possible life-changing wealth, and no one else will know.   Some of us might believe ourselves to be capable or not capable of doing the "right thing," and there will also be times in which "the right thing" will be subject to interpretation...and think of another possibility, the "right" thing (could well be interpreted to be divisible.. .hahahahahahaha.. by 100 million.... or even time-delayed preserving of a "back door" that may or may not be the "right thing" to do).
hero member
Activity: 1946
Merit: 867
Defend Bitcoin and its PoW: bitcoincleanup.com
January 03, 2025, 05:15:06 AM
#36
...

I agree with a lot of your reasoning about points that you are making @tiCeR especially when it comes to the difficulties of making inferences from the information that we know versus the information that we don't know, so no matter what, there is a lack of solid evidence if we are going to conclusively draw inferences on the non-movement of coins - yet at the same time, I largely come to the opposite conclusion as you in regards to my own thinking that the number of lost coins are likely higher than the estimates, and you seem to be coming to the conclusion that fewer coins are lost than the various inferences.

First, personally, I believe that Satoshi's coins are likely to be lost "on purpose."

Secondly, I believe that a lot of bitcoiners likely believe that they have coins, but they are not in a frequent of enough practice of accessing their coins to realize that they really don't have the coins that they believe that they have.

Third, I believe that a lot of folks are not very good at their plans of successorship, so many of them have not adequately communicated the successorship of their coins, and even if they have communicated such successorship, the form of their communication is not clear enough (or updated enough) in order for successors (namely heirs) to be adequately able to know about the quantity of their coins (and the various locations of such coins) and to access such coins.  Password management can be quite difficult, even when we are trying to recall our own accounts and/or locations of coins and other important things, so frequently if heirs are not even able to adequately figure out coins that a deceased person might have had, they might also not be ready, willing and/or able to spend time trying to figure out such puzzles...even something as simple as getting into the deceased person's laptop that may end up giving some clues, there can be difficulties getting in, and then also difficulties sorting through what information might be important, while perhaps attempting to preserve some of the privacy of the deceased person.

There may be deceased person personal papers in electronic form, in paper forum and even stashed away in various places (buried stamped steel plates that might not even have the whole seed in one place.. so having to put 2 or 3 parts together)

Fourth, - somewhat not related to lost coins, also consider the logistical problems of having someone technical (who might not be 100% honest) helping out a non-technical person, and if the person comes across information that reflects value or even bitcoin that can be irreversibly moved, and if such technical person comes accross life changing amounts of money that he considers himself to be more able to meaningfully spend as compared to a potentially undeserving and unknowing person who  is the rightful beneficiary, then surely there can be temptations to move some or all of such coins to their own self-custody, yet theft of coins still would not be the same as lost coins, since in this kind of a case, the coins would just end up going to someone who took the coins... and sure maybe he does not take all the coins, so he ends up splitting the pot or maybe even retaining some control over the coins when he might transfer the coins to the intended beneficiary.

JJG, I actually found out I like your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, scheme quite a lot. I am not making fun of you. It is how you invite someone else to comment on positions in a structured way, absolutely phenomenal.

First, this is the most unfounded speculation ever. I agree with many things you say, but everyone who has had an interest in secret operations and so on, must come to the conclusion that nobody knows whether these coins are still "alive", you included. Sorry to take this step, but you included. Think about past operations, it would be stupid to outrule possibilities.

Secondly, ok this I don't know. I think you are onto something here, I just don't know the magnitude. I think here in this specific case as described by you, in the lower percentage rate, but still. There are lost coins, but I would be surpirsed if somebody didn't check their wallets when they saw the news that BTC crossed $100k.

Third, I fully agree. This can be a big one. Shortcut here: explaining siblings how to handle things, it is a nightmare if they have never had anything to do with bitcoin. Yes, you are so right about this.

Fourth, I gave a warning to a relative who told me that a friend would manage her BTC issues. I think there is nothing to add. However, for the folks reading this, do not transmit any access to anyone you can't 100% trust. Now figure out how many people in life you 100% trust.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
December 28, 2024, 02:56:58 PM
#35
...
You can use inactive UTXOs, and different age cut-offs to estimate possible lost bitcoins. With different age cut-offs, you will have different estimations and they are all not accurate.
https://www.bitcoinmagazinepro.com/charts/hodl-waves/
There are always very old, and inactive UTXOs suddenly become active again and make your estimations inaccurate. It's only important by knowing a fact that there are lost bitcoins that contribute to higher value of Bitcoin and it's gift for all of us.
Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more.  Think of it as a donation to everyone.
You have essentially stated what I already mentioned. You call it inactive UTXOs, which essentially add to total BTC coin age. But a dormant wallet is not a lost wallet as this here shows:

The post is from April 2024. Now it is more or less safe to say that most of these 50 BTC wallets are lost because those were probably some nerds playing around mining a block and then lost interest and did lose or forget about the keys. But there is no way to say how many of these wallets are indeed dead in the water.

When I read this
Quote
I think the estimation about lost wallets is way to aggressive. Asserting that wallets with unspent UTXOs since 2014 can reasonably be considered lost is a joke in my opinion. 2014 was the time when people started figuring out all the stuff about handling wallets and so on because the info was out there, Youtube channels popped up, guides were there and so on and so forth. I understand that those who experimented with mining in 2010 may have lost the coinbase transactions here and there because they lost interest, hence the many 50 BTC wallets, but not in 2014. Coins have still been lost since then of course, but I can tell that those who have been around had a very good clue how to safely store BTC and those who newly joined had access to essential info.

What's more, BTC had crossed the $1,000 mark already in 2013. Everyone knew that this is more serious than buying pizzas with 10,000 BTC. There is no way it can make sense that Chainalysis defines wallets as lost when coins haven't moved since 2014. I don't know what you think, but to me it is ridiculous and I am honestly not sure why they would come up with that idea. I'd just call them dormant and let everyone else come up with their own opinion. I don't think Satoshi's coins are lost. It's possible, but I assume they are not because why would I bother? It makes more sense for everyone to take them into account rather than optimistically write them off the BTC supply balance sheet hoping that it boosts the value of my holdings due to increased scarcity.
Edit: Here is another example.
Quote
Wallets from February 2009 waking up after 15.5 years.

I agree with a lot of your reasoning about points that you are making @tiCeR especially when it comes to the difficulties of making inferences from the information that we know versus the information that we don't know, so no matter what, there is a lack of solid evidence if we are going to conclusively draw inferences on the non-movement of coins - yet at the same time, I largely come to the opposite conclusion as you in regards to my own thinking that the number of lost coins are likely higher than the estimates, and you seem to be coming to the conclusion that fewer coins are lost than the various inferences.

First, personally, I believe that Satoshi's coins are likely to be lost "on purpose."

Secondly, I believe that a lot of bitcoiners likely believe that they have coins, but they are not in a frequent of enough practice of accessing their coins to realize that they really don't have the coins that they believe that they have.

Third, I believe that a lot of folks are not very good at their plans of successorship, so many of them have not adequately communicated the successorship of their coins, and even if they have communicated such successorship, the form of their communication is not clear enough (or updated enough) in order for successors (namely heirs) to be adequately able to know about the quantity of their coins (and the various locations of such coins) and to access such coins.  Password management can be quite difficult, even when we are trying to recall our own accounts and/or locations of coins and other important things, so frequently if heirs are not even able to adequately figure out coins that a deceased person might have had, they might also not be ready, willing and/or able to spend time trying to figure out such puzzles...even something as simple as getting into the deceased person's laptop that may end up giving some clues, there can be difficulties getting in, and then also difficulties sorting through what information might be important, while perhaps attempting to preserve some of the privacy of the deceased person.

There may be deceased person personal papers in electronic form, in paper forum and even stashed away in various places (buried stamped steel plates that might not even have the whole seed in one place.. so having to put 2 or 3 parts together)

Fourth, - somewhat not related to lost coins, also consider the logistical problems of having someone technical (who might not be 100% honest) helping out a non-technical person, and if the person comes across information that reflects value or even bitcoin that can be irreversibly moved, and if such technical person comes accross life changing amounts of money that he considers himself to be more able to meaningfully spend as compared to a potentially undeserving and unknowing person who  is the rightful beneficiary, then surely there can be temptations to move some or all of such coins to their own self-custody, yet theft of coins still would not be the same as lost coins, since in this kind of a case, the coins would just end up going to someone who took the coins... and sure maybe he does not take all the coins, so he ends up splitting the pot or maybe even retaining some control over the coins when he might transfer the coins to the intended beneficiary.
hero member
Activity: 1946
Merit: 867
Defend Bitcoin and its PoW: bitcoincleanup.com
December 28, 2024, 12:17:32 PM
#34
...
You can use inactive UTXOs, and different age cut-offs to estimate possible lost bitcoins. With different age cut-offs, you will have different estimations and they are all not accurate.
https://www.bitcoinmagazinepro.com/charts/hodl-waves/

There are always very old, and inactive UTXOs suddenly become active again and make your estimations inaccurate. It's only important by knowing a fact that there are lost bitcoins that contribute to higher value of Bitcoin and it's gift for all of us.

Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more.  Think of it as a donation to everyone.

You have essentially stated what I already mentioned. You call it inactive UTXOs, which essentially add to total BTC coin age. But a dormant wallet is not a lost wallet as this here shows:



The post is from April 2024. Now it is more or less safe to say that most of these 50 BTC wallets are lost because those were probably some nerds playing around mining a block and then lost interest and did lose or forget about the keys. But there is no way to say how many of these wallets are indeed dead in the water.

When I read this

Quote

I think the estimation about lost wallets is way too aggressive. Asserting that wallets with unspent UTXOs since 2014 can reasonably be considered lost is a joke in my opinion. 2014 was the time when people started figuring out all the stuff about handling wallets and so on because the info was out there, Youtube channels popped up, guides were there and so on and so forth. I understand that those who experimented with mining in 2010 may have lost the coinbase transactions here and there because they lost interest, hence the many 50 BTC wallets, but not in 2014. Coins have still been lost since then of course, but I can tell that those who have been around had a very good clue how to safely store BTC and those who newly joined had access to essential info.

What's more, BTC had crossed the $1,000 mark already in 2013. Everyone knew that this is more serious than buying pizzas with 10,000 BTC. There is no way it can make sense that Chainalysis defines wallets as lost when coins haven't moved since 2014. I don't know what you think, but to me it is ridiculous and I am honestly not sure why they would come up with that idea. I'd just call them dormant and let everyone else come up with their own opinion. I don't think Satoshi's coins are lost. It's possible, but I assume they are not because why would I bother? It makes more sense for everyone to take them into account rather than optimistically write them off the BTC supply balance sheet hoping that it boosts the value of my holdings due to increased scarcity.

Edit: Here is another example.

Quote

Wallets from February 2009 waking up after 15.5 years.
hero member
Activity: 1722
Merit: 801
December 28, 2024, 06:01:44 AM
#33
I searched for sources for a while now and I agree that what shahzadafzal said. It ranges from sometimes 1.8m to as many as 6 million. Does anyone know a source of which you think the applied methodology to determine lost coins permanently makes sense and is verifiable to a certain degree?

Since these sources vary so widely, I think nobody really has a clue as to how many BTC are lost. When a guy says he threw a hard drive in the trash, even that can't be verified. It is probably true, but it doesn't have to be. Are satoshis coins considered lost permanently in most of these reports?
You can use inactive UTXOs, and different age cut-offs to estimate possible lost bitcoins. With different age cut-offs, you will have different estimations and they are all not accurate.
https://www.bitcoinmagazinepro.com/charts/hodl-waves/

There are always very old, and inactive UTXOs suddenly become active again and make your estimations inaccurate. It's only important by knowing a fact that there are lost bitcoins that contribute to higher value of Bitcoin and it's gift for all of us.

Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more.  Think of it as a donation to everyone.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
December 28, 2024, 05:59:06 AM
#32
As far as I know many services recognise coins as lost if the wallet has not been used for many years, but we have seen many cases where after 10 years or more many old wallets come back to life.
I use 3M lost coins for my stats because I don't need very much accuracy.
hero member
Activity: 1946
Merit: 867
Defend Bitcoin and its PoW: bitcoincleanup.com
December 28, 2024, 12:59:23 AM
#31
...
But if we add bitcoins on centralised crypto exchanges to this statistic, we can get a figure = 31%. This is good news as more bitcoins come out of the shadows. But in my opinion if you take into account lost coins permanently, at least 30% of coins will be in the shadow zone.


But how are they coming up with these numbers for lost coins permanently? Frankly, the numbers vary widely. It is a huge difference whether 2 million BTC or 6 million BTC are lost.

Bitcoins lost forever 2.4m (11%), according to report an estimate suggest between three million to as many as six million may be have been lost forever.
A loose estimate that's often agreed upon is 3.5 million.

I searched for sources for a while now and I agree that what shahzadafzal said. It ranges from sometimes 1.8m to as many as 6 million. Does anyone know a source of which you think the applied methodology to determine lost coins permanently makes sense and is verifiable to a certain degree?

Since these sources vary so widely, I think nobody really has a clue as to how many BTC are lost. When a guy says he threw a hard drive in the trash, even that can't be verified. It is probably true, but it doesn't have to be. Are satoshis coins considered lost permanently in most of these reports?

It can't be solely based on peoples' reports or coin age.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
December 27, 2024, 08:17:51 AM
#30
https://dailyhodl.com/2024/12/24/31-of-all-bitcoin-holdings-now-belong-to-etfs-governments-and-microstrategy-mstr-cryptoquant-ceo/
Exchange-traded funds (ETFs), governments and MicroStrategy (MSTR) own nearly one-third of all known Bitcoin (BTC) holdings.

The 31% of known BTC holdings owned by ETFs, governments and MicroStrategy represents a 14% increase from December 2023, according to Ki Young Ju, the founder and chief executive of the digital asset analytics firm CryptoQuant.
“Bitcoin Cap Table Update: ETFs, governments, and MSTR now account for 31% of all known Bitcoin holdings, up from 14% last year.”


There is something misleading about each of those pie charts, since there should be another two pie charts that shows how many bitcoin are in unknown entities (private hands), so then it would show known entities and unknown entities in order to put the unknown portion into perspective.  The pie charts imply that to be the whole bitcoin supply when I would suspect that each of them is depicting less than 25% of the total bitcoin supply.
I like this statistic better
https://treasuries.bitbo.io/
But if we add bitcoins on centralised crypto exchanges to this statistic, we can get a figure = 31%. This is good news as more bitcoins come out of the shadows. But in my opinion if you take into account lost coins permanently, at least 30% of coins will be in the shadow zone.


hero member
Activity: 1946
Merit: 867
Defend Bitcoin and its PoW: bitcoincleanup.com
December 27, 2024, 01:38:45 AM
#29
https://dailyhodl.com/2024/12/24/31-of-all-bitcoin-holdings-now-belong-to-etfs-governments-and-microstrategy-mstr-cryptoquant-ceo/
Exchange-traded funds (ETFs), governments and MicroStrategy (MSTR) own nearly one-third of all known Bitcoin (BTC) holdings.

The 31% of known BTC holdings owned by ETFs, governments and MicroStrategy represents a 14% increase from December 2023, according to Ki Young Ju, the founder and chief executive of the digital asset analytics firm CryptoQuant.
“Bitcoin Cap Table Update: ETFs, governments, and MSTR now account for 31% of all known Bitcoin holdings, up from 14% last year.”


There is something misleading about each of those pie charts, since there should be another two pie charts that shows how many bitcoin are in unknown entities (private hands), so then it would show known entities and unknown entities in order to put the unknown portion into perspective.  The pie charts imply that to be the whole bitcoin supply when I would suspect that each of them is depicting less than 25% of the total bitcoin supply.

Good catch and does anyone know on what number these
Quote
31% of known BTC holdings
is based on? I did a quick search in the quoted article, but it only talks about 31% of known BTC while not saying how many BTC holdings are known.

JayJuanGee I think your 25% number could be quite accurate. I know it is a guess, but I did the following:



If you look at the table and you go bottom up, you could suspect that most of the 10K BTC - 100K BTC wallets are identified and you can see that when you scroll down on the website and see whether the wallet addresses have a tag. Most of them do. Let's assume that all addresses in the range 10K BTC - 1 mio BTC are known, that makes roughly 3,000,000 BTC.

Then I checked how many wallets in the 1K BTC - 10K BTC are tagged and the number of tagged addresses goes down a lot, but I would suspect it could be around 50% tagged, probably less but let's go with 50%. That makes 2,300,000 BTC.

I then checked addresses in the range of 100 BTC - 1K BTC and there you can see that hardly any address is tagged. I am aware it doesn't mean it is definitely unknown, but going by these estimates based on the tags, it could be around 26%.

In my opinion this makes sense. Any wallet below 1K BTC is most likely not identified. Give or take of course, but the wallets ranging from 10 BTC to 100 BTC won't be in corporate or institutional hands for the most part. Some of them yes, but why would they be identified unless they must be disclosed or have a proven connection to another / bigger wallet of that same entity.

This has been an interesting topic ever since, same thing for how many BTC are lost, but I have found that as soon as you change the source of information, the numbers change too.
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 106
🌀 Cosmic Casino
December 26, 2024, 06:10:07 PM
#28
https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1857089998614335761
"US Spot #Bitcoin ETFs now own an estimated ~1.07 million BTC. As a group they're likely to pass Satoshi's estimated holdings of ~1.1 million BTC in the next few days or weeks" (C) James Seyffart
Bitcoin ETFs were approved in March, meaning it took them just 8 months to own over 1 million BTC and be ready to surpass Satoshi. What will happen in the coming years and how many bitcoins will they own and what percentage of the bitcoin supply will they account for?

Some people's concerns are not unfounded, bitcoin ETF approval is like a double-edged sword. On one hand, that will positively impact the price of bitcoin as more people invest in it, but on the other hand, bitcoin will be held mainly by institutions making it more susceptible to manipulation and becoming more centralized. But in the end, there is nothing we can do to fight or stop them from accumulating more bitcoins.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings, not knowing whether to be happy or sad about this news.
I try to see reasons why that wouldn’t go and there can’t be some obvious manipulation on the market. Reason being that, while all the institutions and whales might share a profit oriented goal, there wouldn’t be a single way to go about it and all can’t agree on a method. Let’s call it the greediness of mankind. It certainly would kick in with some, trying to make more than the other and looking out for means to archive that outside the norms, not to mention the small players that trade the market as well which all these is dependent on as well.

I thought that we should know that the BTC spot ETFs were approved on January 10 and they started to trade on January 11.

See this, everything you need to know about BTC spot ETFs article from August.

Of course, it is an amazing phenomena in regards to getting BTC price exposure, even though also the power of bitcoin and the value comes from directly holding it and directly being able to transact in it without anyone being able to stop such transactions.

I was hoping to read a little further but, you stopped suddenly, not as extensive as you often are in your comments. I guess this is how this one goes due to the link.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1089
Goodnight, o_e_l_e_o 🌹
December 26, 2024, 04:35:51 PM
#27
I believe this would be helpful for you and anyone interested in this
The upgraded version. Cheesy



I'm quite happy that there are still a lot Bitcoin that hold by people in non custodial wallet, I thought the number would be less than 50%, probably like 10% considering most people around myself hold their Bitcoin in Binance.

But we don't know what we happen in the next decade, I hope the number of Bitcoin in "people" will increase.
10.5 million BTC by real hodlers is a good one. The infographic didn't actually say where there are HODLing, whether custodial, non custodial etc. But I am cool that that big number is in the hands of the people.

1.6m allocated to unknown whales is ridiculous. The number is small compared to what I have in my head. This means that whales have simply left bitcoin to shit coins of low price and volume they can manipulate easily. Maybe known institutions holding BTC should be classified as whales, maybe known whales to make things connect well.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
December 26, 2024, 03:53:39 PM
#26
https://dailyhodl.com/2024/12/24/31-of-all-bitcoin-holdings-now-belong-to-etfs-governments-and-microstrategy-mstr-cryptoquant-ceo/
Exchange-traded funds (ETFs), governments and MicroStrategy (MSTR) own nearly one-third of all known Bitcoin (BTC) holdings.

The 31% of known BTC holdings owned by ETFs, governments and MicroStrategy represents a 14% increase from December 2023, according to Ki Young Ju, the founder and chief executive of the digital asset analytics firm CryptoQuant.
“Bitcoin Cap Table Update: ETFs, governments, and MSTR now account for 31% of all known Bitcoin holdings, up from 14% last year.”


There is something misleading about each of those pie charts, since there should be another two pie charts that shows how many bitcoin are in unknown entities (private hands), so then it would show known entities and unknown entities in order to put the unknown portion into perspective.  The pie charts imply that to be the whole bitcoin supply when I would suspect that each of them is depicting less than 25% of the total bitcoin supply.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
December 26, 2024, 05:46:34 AM
#25
https://dailyhodl.com/2024/12/24/31-of-all-bitcoin-holdings-now-belong-to-etfs-governments-and-microstrategy-mstr-cryptoquant-ceo/

Exchange-traded funds (ETFs), governments and MicroStrategy (MSTR) own nearly one-third of all known Bitcoin (BTC) holdings.

The 31% of known BTC holdings owned by ETFs, governments and MicroStrategy represents a 14% increase from December 2023, according to Ki Young Ju, the founder and chief executive of the digital asset analytics firm CryptoQuant.

“Bitcoin Cap Table Update: ETFs, governments, and MSTR now account for 31% of all known Bitcoin holdings, up from 14% last year.”



legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1109
Free Free Palestine
December 03, 2024, 09:49:15 AM
#24



If the institutions hold too much Bitcoin, they have a power to "change" the trend of Bitcoin bullish and bearish season, making it harder to predict.

It is inevitable that they manipulate prices because it is part of the financial game. Even if they don't hold a lot of bitcoin, there is always a way to manipulate it if they want to. What is more worrying as many have pointed out is that Bitcoin will become more centralized if the majority of the supply is held by large institutions or governments and this seems to be becoming a reality. But what's sadder is that even if we don't like it or are worried, there's no way to stop them from doing it.

What happens if they hold more than 50% of the supply? Could that happen?
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1209
December 03, 2024, 09:06:16 AM
#23
I happened to find a very interesting statistic
https://treasuries.bitbo.io/

The trend now is that soon a lot of bitcoins will be owned by public and private companies.
19.78M bitcoins have already been mined, and the influx of new coins will no longer be able to have a strong impact on the market
It's really scary to imagine.

The amount is increase now, they own 13.447%. We still didn't count the lost coins and whales who own Bitcoin, which make the coins that available for the public are getting lower and lower.

If the institutions hold too much Bitcoin, they have a power to "change" the trend of Bitcoin bullish and bearish season, making it harder to predict.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
December 03, 2024, 08:53:27 AM
#22
https://www.theblock.co/post/329190/blackrock-ibit-spot-bitcoin-etf-500000-btc
BlackRock’s spot ETF surpasses 500,000 bitcoin in assets under management

"BlackRock’s IBIT spot bitcoin ETF has exceeded 500,000 BTC in assets under management less than a year after trading began.
The fund is now approaching the $50 billion AUM mark following another $338.3 million worth of net inflows on Monday."
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
November 21, 2024, 04:34:49 AM
#21
I happened to find a very interesting statistic
https://treasuries.bitbo.io/


The trend now is that soon a lot of bitcoins will be owned by public and private companies.
19.78M bitcoins have already been mined, and the influx of new coins will no longer be able to have a strong impact on the market
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
November 19, 2024, 06:47:04 AM
#20
https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1857089998614335761
"US Spot #Bitcoin ETFs now own an estimated ~1.07 million BTC. As a group they're likely to pass Satoshi's estimated holdings of ~1.1 million BTC in the next few days or weeks" (C) James Seyffart



Bitcoin ETFs were approved in March, meaning it took them just 8 months to own over 1 million BTC and be ready to surpass Satoshi. What will happen in the coming years and how many bitcoins will they own and what percentage of the bitcoin supply will they account for?

Some people's concerns are not unfounded, bitcoin ETF approval is like a double-edged sword. On one hand, that will positively impact the price of bitcoin as more people invest in it, but on the other hand, bitcoin will be held mainly by institutions making it more susceptible to manipulation and becoming more centralized. But in the end, there is nothing we can do to fight or stop them from accumulating more bitcoins.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings, not knowing whether to be happy or sad about this news.
https://companiesmarketcap.com/usd/assets-by-market-cap/


The ETF market gives many pluses, but it is also an additional market to sell off an asset other than the crypto market.
ETF assets can be used in collateral, in indices, in other exchange instruments, and in 5 years it will be difficult for many people to analyse the assets. For example, DAI now has many instruments other than cryptocurrencies as collateral.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
November 18, 2024, 11:39:58 AM
#19
https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1857089998614335761
"US Spot #Bitcoin ETFs now own an estimated ~1.07 million BTC. As a group they're likely to pass Satoshi's estimated holdings of ~1.1 million BTC in the next few days or weeks" (C) James Seyffart
Bitcoin ETFs were approved in March, meaning it took them just 8 months to own over 1 million BTC and be ready to surpass Satoshi. What will happen in the coming years and how many bitcoins will they own and what percentage of the bitcoin supply will they account for?

Some people's concerns are not unfounded, bitcoin ETF approval is like a double-edged sword. On one hand, that will positively impact the price of bitcoin as more people invest in it, but on the other hand, bitcoin will be held mainly by institutions making it more susceptible to manipulation and becoming more centralized. But in the end, there is nothing we can do to fight or stop them from accumulating more bitcoins.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings, not knowing whether to be happy or sad about this news.

I thought that we should know that the BTC spot ETFs were approved on January 10 and they started to trade on January 11.

See this, everything you need to know about BTC spot ETFs article from August.

Of course, it is an amazing phenomena in regards to getting BTC price exposure, even though also the power of bitcoin and the value comes from directly holding it and directly being able to transact in it without anyone being able to stop such transactions.
copper member
Activity: 280
Merit: 5
November 18, 2024, 05:45:32 AM
#18
https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1857089998614335761
"US Spot #Bitcoin ETFs now own an estimated ~1.07 million BTC. As a group they're likely to pass Satoshi's estimated holdings of ~1.1 million BTC in the next few days or weeks" (C) James Seyffart



Bitcoin ETFs were approved in March, meaning it took them just 8 months to own over 1 million BTC and be ready to surpass Satoshi. What will happen in the coming years and how many bitcoins will they own and what percentage of the bitcoin supply will they account for?

Some people's concerns are not unfounded, bitcoin ETF approval is like a double-edged sword. On one hand, that will positively impact the price of bitcoin as more people invest in it, but on the other hand, bitcoin will be held mainly by institutions making it more susceptible to manipulation and becoming more centralized. But in the end, there is nothing we can do to fight or stop them from accumulating more bitcoins.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings, not knowing whether to be happy or sad about this news.

It's good and bad, but all of these are regulated to the brim, so they wouldn't be able to "manipulate" BTC, per se. But they surely will have some levers on it.
hero member
Activity: 1792
Merit: 534
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
November 18, 2024, 05:21:50 AM
#17
https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1857089998614335761
"US Spot #Bitcoin ETFs now own an estimated ~1.07 million BTC. As a group they're likely to pass Satoshi's estimated holdings of ~1.1 million BTC in the next few days or weeks" (C) James Seyffart



Bitcoin ETFs were approved in March, meaning it took them just 8 months to own over 1 million BTC and be ready to surpass Satoshi. What will happen in the coming years and how many bitcoins will they own and what percentage of the bitcoin supply will they account for?

Some people's concerns are not unfounded, bitcoin ETF approval is like a double-edged sword. On one hand, that will positively impact the price of bitcoin as more people invest in it, but on the other hand, bitcoin will be held mainly by institutions making it more susceptible to manipulation and becoming more centralized. But in the end, there is nothing we can do to fight or stop them from accumulating more bitcoins.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings, not knowing whether to be happy or sad about this news.
?
Activity: -
Merit: -
November 18, 2024, 04:57:48 AM
#16
About Bitcoin Sport ETFs, you can get live stats of bitcoin hold by Bitcoin Spot ETFs from Glassnode on-chain data.
https://studio.glassnode.com/dashboards/btc-etfs
https://newhedge.io/terminal/bitcoin/spot-bitcoin-etf-holdings

Numbers for Bitcoin Spot ETFs are exact ones but number for Satoshi Nakamoto is only estimation. We don't know Satoshi Nakamoto's exact Bitcoin fortune.

And we probably wouldn't know it for sure.
That's the beauty of it  Tongue
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 306
November 18, 2024, 04:53:36 AM
#15
About Bitcoin Sport ETFs, you can get live stats of bitcoin hold by Bitcoin Spot ETFs from Glassnode on-chain data.
https://studio.glassnode.com/dashboards/btc-etfs
https://newhedge.io/terminal/bitcoin/spot-bitcoin-etf-holdings

Numbers for Bitcoin Spot ETFs are exact ones but number for Satoshi Nakamoto is only estimation. We don't know Satoshi Nakamoto's exact Bitcoin fortune.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
November 18, 2024, 04:22:27 AM
#14
https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1857089998614335761
"US Spot #Bitcoin ETFs now own an estimated ~1.07 million BTC. As a group they're likely to pass Satoshi's estimated holdings of ~1.1 million BTC in the next few days or weeks" (C) James Seyffart

legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715

Spot BTC ETFs already hold nearly 5%.
https://www.ishares.com/
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
https://www.ishares.com/us/products/333011/ishares-bitcoin-trust
"BlackRock owns 287,167 BTC ($19.7 billion)"
"Bitcoin ETF issuers own 1,002,343 BTC ($69 billion) – 4.7% of the BTC supply. (HODL15Capital)"(C)





K33 Research data

legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
I already realized that more than half of the bitcoins cannot be analyzed using my methods Smiley

https://twitter.com/ArkhamIntel/status/1765705287120429110
"Arkham has identified the BTC holdings of Tesla and SpaceX. We are the first to publicly identify these holdings on chain.
We believe Tesla currently holds 11.51K BTC ($780M) across 68 addresses, and SpaceX holds 8.29K BTC ($560M) across 28 addresses."

WHO OWNS THE MOST BITCOIN - 2024 UPDATED
https://www.arkhamintelligence.com/research/who-owns-the-most-bitcoin-2023-edition

WHO OWNS THE MOST ETHEREUM (2024 EDITION)
https://www.arkhamintelligence.com/research/who-owns-the-most-ethereum

Bitcoin has 6 months until ETF ‘liquidity crisis’ — New analysis
https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-6-months-etf-liquidity-crisis-analysis


Bitcoins held by the US government
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoins-held-by-the-us-government-5452300
German Police Seizes Record 50,000 BTC Worth $2.17B in Major Piracy Case
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/german-police-seizes-record-50000-btc-worth-217b-in-major-piracy-case-5483905
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1860
This is indeed a good way to somehow analyze the possibilities in the market. I hope you will come up with the bigger picture that is more or less accurate.

It is elating to know from the previous post that around half of all Bitcoin is being held by Bitcoin supporters in non-custodial storage. It is certainly troubling if this much Bitcoin is being kept by centralized custodians. That signals a big risk in the market.

My hunch is that when you finally put all the pieces together, you'd find out that there are actually more coins than the actual supply. And it's because of these centralized services which produce hollow numbers, paper Bitcoin, or IOUs.
sr. member
Activity: 700
Merit: 470
Hope Jeremiah 17vs7
snip
I believe this would be helpful for you and anyone interested in this
If this is true then wouldn't this be a good thing because there's more in crypto exchanges than any other groups out there? What I'm trying to say is that don't we the retail investors outnumber these groups so any kind of plan to do with the price of the market?
50% of Bitcoin are actually held on non-custodial wallets and Apocollapse gave the full image but if you actually read my quoted text, you did notice that it was said there which is around 10.5m btc held there.

About the amount of bitcoin held on exchanges the fact remains the fact which is though you teach the truth only those who will listen will listen but in the end we know they are going to regret their ignorance though this is among what are held in ETFs spot
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 785
I think I was able to come across this website which gives a 24hrs detailed statistics about the total amount of Bitcoin which comes in and out of over 20 different crypto exchanges as could be seen below. I think this could be of better tool to aid your research if you don't mind.

     


Link: https://www.coinglass.com/Balance
member
Activity: 378
Merit: 93
Enable v2transport=1 and mempoolfullrbf=1


The left axis and right axis are both labeled "₿", but the numbers on each side are staggered from each other. What's up with that?
hero member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 803
I believe this would be helpful for you and anyone interested in this
The upgraded version. Cheesy



I'm quite happy that there are still a lot Bitcoin that hold by people in non custodial wallet, I thought the number would be less than 50%, probably like 10% considering most people around myself hold their Bitcoin in Binance.

But we don't know what we happen in the next decade, I hope the number of Bitcoin in "people" will increase.
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 306
BitcoinTreasuries.net has a Treemap Chart that breaks down Bitcoin distributions on Government entities, Public companies, Private companies, ETFs & Funds, DeFi, and more.

The treemap chart is built with estimations because it is impossible to identify how many bitcoins were actually lost.

https://bitcointreasuries.net/
legendary
Activity: 3332
Merit: 1404
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
It's good to have such data and to monitor how influential investment funds are actually getting. There's a clear surge of Bitcoin accumulation in 2024, most likely due to the SEC finally approving ETFs. One million BTC is a very big number, especially considering that a few million BTC that count as 'circulating supply' might actually be lost forever or are at least not in active use. But that still means that they're very far from managing the majority of BTC.
I do agree, though, that this data should be combined with info on exchanges and other forms of centralized storage of BTC to estimate how much is actually held by people in non-custodial wallets. From what Amphenomenon shared, it seems that the majority of BTC is likely to still be decentralized and held by people themselves (or at least outside major centralized platforms). That sounds like good news to me.
sr. member
Activity: 1554
Merit: 334
You'll probably only see the data of confiscated bitcoins by the authorities in estimate I think because even though there are some news headlines that are talking about the amount of bitcoins seized in an operation, there's other operations out there that aren't newsworthy so they don't get headlines or just plain covert so the numbers aren't accounted for, only way that you could know for sure is if you've got some deep level access in the governments that have seized bitcoins or have a contact that would provide you that numbers.

snip
I believe this would be helpful for you and anyone interested in this
If this is true then wouldn't this be a good thing because there's more in crypto exchanges than any other groups out there? What I'm trying to say is that don't we the retail investors outnumber these groups so any kind of plan to do with the price of the market?
sr. member
Activity: 700
Merit: 470
Hope Jeremiah 17vs7


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-68434579

That's an interesting graph... and to be honest a nice read too.. after long time some facts and actual stuff that talks about bitcoin.

Bitcoins lost forever 2.4m (11%), according to report an estimate suggest between three million to as many as six million may be have been lost forever.
A loose estimate that's often agreed upon is 3.5 million.

In the same article while discussing Cryptocurrency exchanges its mentioned that exchanges act like banks and there's a warning too, leaving your coins on an exchange can go wrong though.

Most interesting is "Unknown whales",  A Bitcoin whale is someone who holds more than 10,000 bitcoins in their digital wallet.  
A loose estimate is that large whales account for about 8% of all bitcoins.

8% that's far less what I used to think... and I remember how it was used to be reported that how whales control the price... this has been proved wrong.

Last coins "Yet to be mined", There are still only about 7% of coins yet to be mined.

People, 50% of all bitcoins are held by the general public about 10.5m bitcoins. River estimated that Bitcoin had 81.7 million users as of June 2023, or 1% of the global population.

Lastly there's a very important point, that this latest surge in the value of Bitcoin is not coming because individual retail investors , Analysts say whales like the big banks are pushing up price and demand. Yes that's true you can only imagine what happens when retail investors turns to bitcoin? Remember still on 1% of global population is holding bitcoin what if that percentage turns 10%?

I believe this would be helpful for you and anyone interested in this
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715

K33 Research data

I have long had a desire to collect statistics on where bitcoins are located in order to try to analyze further events in this market.
I found a recent report from K33 Research that said there are 1 million Bitcoins in ETPs, ETFs and other funds.
I would like to find data on how many bitcoins are currently on exchanges, how many have been confiscated by the authorities of different countries and other official data in order to understand how many bitcoins have known owners.
There is also data on bitcoins lost forever, but we see that sometimes large wallets come back to life after 10 years.

If someone has already done this before me, then share the result so that I don’t have to start everything from the very beginning


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