bitcoin-trader.biz = PONZI (promoted by xephyr)

Jared35570

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: LoneStar43 on October 02, 2014, 01:58:11 PM

I risked $1000 of my mining profit on buying shares just over 120 days ago. I withdrew my returns weekly and made $683, once my shares expired the $1000 in principal became available to withdraw.

Back in again but just with my mining profit.
https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=LoneStar43

Bye Bye "Profits"

Didldak

full member

Activity: 150

Merit: 100

Oh boy!

Bye bye ponzi

LoneStar43

newbie

Activity: 23

Merit: 0

I risked $1000 of my mining profit on buying shares just over 120 days ago. I withdrew my returns weekly and made $683, once my shares expired the $1000 in principal became available to withdraw.

Back in again but just with my mining profit.
https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=LoneStar43

rmoraos

sr. member

Activity: 452

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: yonce on May 04, 2014, 06:41:19 PM

Don't think ponzi games are bad since I play them - but my posts in his thread were deleted and I don't think ponzi games should be promoted so hardcore to the bitcoin community as legitimate companies. People should play ponzi games being aware they are. Stay far far away from ones trying to disassociate themselves so much from the HYIP community.

seriously? they are illegal.

better do bitcoin-trader.biz

the same gain but real business

I wonder why my post was deleted in your thread. This was:

"I found more info in the panama public register (search "Por ficha" and put the number 824337), it is some scary that is a company with only $10,000 in capital:

http://registro-publico.gob.pa/index.php/es/servicios-web1/consulta-registral

Best Regards."

Ron~Popeil

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Quote from: yonce on June 06, 2014, 10:25:45 AM

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 05:55:52 PM

Quote from: Keyser Soze on June 05, 2014, 12:25:30 PM

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 01:19:14 AM

In all seriousness if you have some proof I would love to see it. You could save a lot of people from losing money. If you don't have proof it looks like you are simply bashing competitors.

I have a couple of shares with them but with so many scams around I am really careful about going all in with anything. I hope others take the same precautions.

No one outside of Bitcoin-Trader will have the proof you are looking for. People are calling them a ponzi because they have ponzi-like traits.

For example, they claim to have been mining and trading bitcoin since 2011 and started Bitcoin-Trader in April 2013. Surely they would have at least some start up capital if they are experienced traders/miners. If they can make ~1% per day trading, why do they need someone else's money? Why not self fund the operation and make more money for themselves? Are we supposed to believe that these smart traders, capable of ~1% per day returns, have nothing to show from their 2 years of mining and trading before starting Bitcoin-Trader?

From what I understand they were operating with private investors before that. Also letting people invest gives them more capital to use in their trades and take advantage of more volume.

I guess we will all agree to disagree. I don't know for sure that they are legit and have no reason to suspect otherwise but I am also keeping my investments there quite small.

operating with private investors before that is almost taken straight out a HYIP admins playbook. I have heard that more times than I can count.

Businesses do that kind of stuff all the time. I still cannot grasp why you are tossing accusations around about a business being an hyip when you promote the same business model. You seem like a fairly smart person yet you seem to not see the discrepancy in your positions.

Even at this stage I would give them a 50/50 chance of being a ponzi scheme and am therefore very cautious, but your accusations are based on pure presumption. I fit turns out that you were right I will come back here and say as much. Will you do the same if proven wrong?

yonce

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 05:55:52 PM

Quote from: Keyser Soze on June 05, 2014, 12:25:30 PM

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 01:19:14 AM

In all seriousness if you have some proof I would love to see it. You could save a lot of people from losing money. If you don't have proof it looks like you are simply bashing competitors.

I have a couple of shares with them but with so many scams around I am really careful about going all in with anything. I hope others take the same precautions.

No one outside of Bitcoin-Trader will have the proof you are looking for. People are calling them a ponzi because they have ponzi-like traits.

For example, they claim to have been mining and trading bitcoin since 2011 and started Bitcoin-Trader in April 2013. Surely they would have at least some start up capital if they are experienced traders/miners. If they can make ~1% per day trading, why do they need someone else's money? Why not self fund the operation and make more money for themselves? Are we supposed to believe that these smart traders, capable of ~1% per day returns, have nothing to show from their 2 years of mining and trading before starting Bitcoin-Trader?

From what I understand they were operating with private investors before that. Also letting people invest gives them more capital to use in their trades and take advantage of more volume.

I guess we will all agree to disagree. I don't know for sure that they are legit and have no reason to suspect otherwise but I am also keeping my investments there quite small.

operating with private investors before that is almost taken straight out a HYIP admins playbook. I have heard that more times than I can count.

Ron~Popeil

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Quote from: Keyser Soze on June 05, 2014, 12:25:30 PM

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 01:19:14 AM

In all seriousness if you have some proof I would love to see it. You could save a lot of people from losing money. If you don't have proof it looks like you are simply bashing competitors.

I have a couple of shares with them but with so many scams around I am really careful about going all in with anything. I hope others take the same precautions.

No one outside of Bitcoin-Trader will have the proof you are looking for. People are calling them a ponzi because they have ponzi-like traits.

For example, they claim to have been mining and trading bitcoin since 2011 and started Bitcoin-Trader in April 2013. Surely they would have at least some start up capital if they are experienced traders/miners. If they can make ~1% per day trading, why do they need someone else's money? Why not self fund the operation and make more money for themselves? Are we supposed to believe that these smart traders, capable of ~1% per day returns, have nothing to show from their 2 years of mining and trading before starting Bitcoin-Trader?

From what I understand they were operating with private investors before that. Also letting people invest gives them more capital to use in their trades and take advantage of more volume.

I guess we will all agree to disagree. I don't know for sure that they are legit and have no reason to suspect otherwise but I am also keeping my investments there quite small.

yonce

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Quote from: Keyser Soze on June 05, 2014, 12:25:30 PM

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 01:19:14 AM

In all seriousness if you have some proof I would love to see it. You could save a lot of people from losing money. If you don't have proof it looks like you are simply bashing competitors.

I have a couple of shares with them but with so many scams around I am really careful about going all in with anything. I hope others take the same precautions.

No one outside of Bitcoin-Trader will have the proof you are looking for. People are calling them a ponzi because they have ponzi-like traits.

For example, they claim to have been mining and trading bitcoin since 2011 and started Bitcoin-Trader in April 2013. Surely they would have at least some start up capital if they are experienced traders/miners. If they can make ~1% per day trading, why do they need someone else's money? Why not self fund the operation and make more money for themselves? Are we supposed to believe that these smart traders, capable of ~1% per day returns, have nothing to show from their 2 years of mining and trading before starting Bitcoin-Trader?

All that plus their use of one of more popular HYIP scripts as well as their knowledge of the organized HYIP industry. All quite odd. I've never run into a company that uses a popular HYIP script and is knowledgeable on the HYIP industy and the way it works and is not actually a HYIP. Shady to say the least.

Keyser Soze

sr. member

Activity: 470

Merit: 250

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 05, 2014, 01:19:14 AM

In all seriousness if you have some proof I would love to see it. You could save a lot of people from losing money. If you don't have proof it looks like you are simply bashing competitors.

I have a couple of shares with them but with so many scams around I am really careful about going all in with anything. I hope others take the same precautions.

No one outside of Bitcoin-Trader will have the proof you are looking for. People are calling them a ponzi because they have ponzi-like traits.

For example, they claim to have been mining and trading bitcoin since 2011 and started Bitcoin-Trader in April 2013. Surely they would have at least some start up capital if they are experienced traders/miners. If they can make ~1% per day trading, why do they need someone else's money? Why not self fund the operation and make more money for themselves? Are we supposed to believe that these smart traders, capable of ~1% per day returns, have nothing to show from their 2 years of mining and trading before starting Bitcoin-Trader?

Ron~Popeil

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Quote from: yonce on June 03, 2014, 10:37:58 AM

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 02, 2014, 11:55:29 PM

Another new account? Multiple accounts and still no evidence. Without facts to back it up your accusations are unjustified. I don't have any insider knowledge on these guys but they are a growing presence in the community and there have been zero legitimate complaints.

There are always zero legitimate complaints till a ponzi scams lol.

In all seriousness if you have some proof I would love to see it. You could save a lot of people from losing money. If you don't have proof it looks like you are simply bashing competitors.

I have a couple of shares with them but with so many scams around I am really careful about going all in with anything. I hope others take the same precautions.

yonce

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Quote from: Ron~Popeil on June 02, 2014, 11:55:29 PM

Another new account? Multiple accounts and still no evidence. Without facts to back it up your accusations are unjustified. I don't have any insider knowledge on these guys but they are a growing presence in the community and there have been zero legitimate complaints.

There are always zero legitimate complaints till a ponzi scams lol.

Ron~Popeil

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Another new account? Multiple accounts and still no evidence. Without facts to back it up your accusations are unjustified. I don't have any insider knowledge on these guys but they are a growing presence in the community and there have been zero legitimate complaints.

yonce

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: yonce on May 04, 2014, 06:41:19 PM

Don't think ponzi games are bad since I play them - but my posts in his thread were deleted and I don't think ponzi games should be promoted so hardcore to the bitcoin community as legitimate companies. People should play ponzi games being aware they are. Stay far far away from ones trying to disassociate themselves so much from the HYIP community.

seriously? they are illegal.

better do bitcoin-trader.biz

the same gain but real business

Well if you believe playing ponzi games are not ethical, then congratulations you are participating in one called bitcoin-trader.biz

yonce

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Don't think ponzi games are bad since I play them - but my posts in his thread were deleted and I don't think ponzi games should be promoted so hardcore to the bitcoin community as legitimate companies. People should play ponzi games being aware they are. Stay far far away from ones trying to disassociate themselves so much from the HYIP community.

coiner8

member

Activity: 65

Merit: 10

Site: http://bitcoin-trader.biz
Profile: xephyr (https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/xephyr-154893)
Self-moderated thread (negative posts are deleted): https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/altcoin-trader-518602
Open thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-traderbiz-393570

xephyr says he's just a user of the site, but when you look at his posts you can see he spends lots of time making them and sounds just like a company representative would. He provides daily updates on returns with charts and images and whatnot. I don't think an ordinary user would take that much time and effort just for a few referral clicks. An ordinary user also wouldn't start a self-moderated thread and delete negative replies that point out how the site is a ponzi scheme.

Regardless of whether xephyr is the site operator, the site is a classic ponzi/HYIP.

First warning sign:

Quote

FYI bitcoin-trader.biz was registered October 2013 (http://who.is/whois/bitcoin-trader.biz). OP said they started in April 2013, six months before the domain was registered. Maybe they used a different domain, but just something to be aware of.

Also 120 days means once you invest you can't withdraw for that long? Sounds like a way to get lots of people's money, report that they're making lots of gains, but never pay out. Why would you restrict when they are able to withdraw?

The 6 month difference is important because it implies that people had previously been paid back their principle after the lockup period ended. Since the site actually started in October 2013 or later, zero or few lockup periods have ended.

An analysis of the claimed returns:

Quote

Has anyone actually received their principal back from this? 20% per month = double your money in 5 months. Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.

What is the total size of the trading fund? If you're doing arbitrage with your $1,000 account I could see a 20% return being possible. But arbitrage opportunities do not scale. There is a limited amount of arbitrage available in the market and lots of people competing to get it. And according to bitcoin-trader.biz they are doing manual trading. How could it be possible for them to get the large amount of arbitrage profits they'd need for those level of returns, especially when they are at a huge disadvantage to automated traders?

Plus they are reporting returns of around 1% per day. That's a 3778% APY when compounded daily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program). If they were getting those kinds of returns they wouldn't need to take anybody else's money. 1 BTC invested at those rates in April 2013 would be worth 4,100,974,661,233,895 BTC today. Or you know, 300,000,000 times the total supply of Bitcoins.

I'm calling it: PONZI

Topic: bitcoin-trader.biz = PONZI (promoted by xephyr) (Read 4282 times)