Bitcoin wallet that doesn't link transactions sent?

Charlene777

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Quote from: pooya87 on September 02, 2021, 01:20:31 AM

Quote from: Charlene777 on September 01, 2021, 11:24:35 AM

I'm not worried about law enforcement, just regular snoopers who would be unable to force Coinbase to turnover data. How could a person link the transactions, they can only see that they came from Coinbase but cannot see which of the millions of Coinbase users sent it and cannot see that these transactions came from the same user. Am I wrong about this?

You are right, the "average Joe" will have a hard time to find the connection on their own they have to get a court order or something like that. However there are two problems you will face in the future.

1. When Coinbase gets hacked (not a matter of if, but when) their database could be published by the hacker and it would be free for everyone to see. It may even end up one some chain-analysis website like walletexplorer.com where people can easily search an address and see all the linked transactions.

2. When you end up sending bitcoin to a destination that breaks Coinbase's ToS and they shut down your account and seize your funds.

Thanks. So what is the best solution?

pooya87

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Quote from: Charlene777 on September 01, 2021, 11:24:35 AM

I'm not worried about law enforcement, just regular snoopers who would be unable to force Coinbase to turnover data. How could a person link the transactions, they can only see that they came from Coinbase but cannot see which of the millions of Coinbase users sent it and cannot see that these transactions came from the same user. Am I wrong about this?

You are right, the "average Joe" will have a hard time to find the connection on their own they have to get a court order or something like that. However there are two problems you will face in the future.

1. When Coinbase gets hacked (not a matter of if, but when) their database could be published by the hacker and it would be free for everyone to see. It may even end up one some chain-analysis website like walletexplorer.com where people can easily search an address and see all the linked transactions.

2. When you end up sending bitcoin to a destination that breaks Coinbase's ToS and they shut down your account and seize your funds.

Charlene777

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on September 01, 2021, 11:35:18 AM

Quote from: Charlene777 on September 01, 2021, 11:24:35 AM

How could a person link the transactions, they can only see that they came from Coinbase but cannot see which of the millions of Coinbase users sent it and cannot see that these transactions came from the same user. Am I wrong about this?

Are you aware that what you withdraw/send from centralized exchanges is the coins you or others have sent?
If you deposit and then withdraw, there's even a chance that the withdrawal will be from your deposit address.
Since Coinbase is not a mixer, sending to the various customers have a good chance to link them.
This is how I see it.

On https://www.blockchain.com/ I checked 2 transactions that I had sent consecutively from Coinbase and none of the 50+ btc amounts or addresses in the inputs and outputs matched any of the ones from the other transaction. Doesn't this mean that they are not linked? Maybe there is a better way to check linkage.

Charlene777

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 31, 2021, 08:29:22 AM

Quote from: Charlene777 on August 30, 2021, 07:21:07 PM

Was just using a coinbase account cause I think transfers sent can only be traced back to coinbase which is quite generic but they closed my account cause of my location. Don't want to deal with an exchange if possible.

If you're doing something that will get you into trouble with law enforcement, then they will easily make coinbase or almost any other centralized service give up the full list of your customers. But if this isn't a problem for you, you can use some other centralized service as a "wallet" like an exchange or a casino. From the outside it would look like all your customers are receiving money from that service. But the withdrawal fees are generally pretty high regardless of the actual network fees. And exchanges could probably close your account for such activity, because they will see that the account clearly isn't used for trading.

A better solution is to use coin control to have no more than 1 output (aside from change) and immediately mix your change outputs and never used unmixed inputs.

Yes, I only care how it looks from the outside to people who don't have Coinbase records. Law enforcement could get the data but I don't care about them.
Coinbase has a wallet so I think it is ok to be used in that way. But the other exchanges I looked at (e.g. kukoin, stormgain) only have a withdrawal option so I think their website is not meant to be used as a wallet and you are right that the fees are prohibitive.

What is the best wallet to manage coin control? Any that can be managed by different users?

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Charlene777 on September 01, 2021, 11:24:35 AM

How could a person link the transactions, they can only see that they came from Coinbase but cannot see which of the millions of Coinbase users sent it and cannot see that these transactions came from the same user. Am I wrong about this?

Are you aware that what you withdraw/send from centralized exchanges is the coins you or others have sent?
If you deposit and then withdraw, there's even a chance that the withdrawal will be from your deposit address.
Since Coinbase is not a mixer, sending to the various customers have a good chance to link them.
This is how I see it.

Charlene777

newbie

Activity: 22

Merit: 3

Quote from: pooya87 on August 31, 2021, 12:02:04 AM

Quote from: Charlene777 on August 30, 2021, 09:10:14 PM

We used coinbase for over a year with 2fa and it was perfectly fine.

This is in direct contradiction with your question! Every single transaction you have sent using Coinbase are already linked together and to your account and your identity. It would be trivial for anyone with legit beef to acquire the link too.
That goes with any other centralized services.

I'm not worried about law enforcement, just regular snoopers who would be unable to force Coinbase to turnover data. How could a person link the transactions, they can only see that they came from Coinbase but cannot see which of the millions of Coinbase users sent it and cannot see that these transactions came from the same user. Am I wrong about this?

odolvlobo

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There is no easy way to achieve your goal. You have several options. Many have already been mentioned:

1. Use coin control to reduce the linkages between receivers.
2. Use a mixer or a custordial service.
3. Use CoinJoin. A few wallets have CoinJoin built in, but JoinMarket might be a better option for you.
4. Use PayJoin to hide the payment amounts.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Charlene777 on August 30, 2021, 07:21:07 PM

Was just using a coinbase account cause I think transfers sent can only be traced back to coinbase which is quite generic but they closed my account cause of my location. Don't want to deal with an exchange if possible.

If you're doing something that will get you into trouble with law enforcement, then they will easily make coinbase or almost any other centralized service give up the full list of your customers. But if this isn't a problem for you, you can use some other centralized service as a "wallet" like an exchange or a casino. From the outside it would look like all your customers are receiving money from that service. But the withdrawal fees are generally pretty high regardless of the actual network fees. And exchanges could probably close your account for such activity, because they will see that the account clearly isn't used for trading.

A better solution is to use coin control to have no more than 1 output (aside from change) and immediately mix your change outputs and never used unmixed inputs.

pooya87

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Quote from: Charlene777 on August 30, 2021, 09:10:14 PM

We used coinbase for over a year with 2fa and it was perfectly fine.

This is in direct contradiction with your question! Every single transaction you have sent using Coinbase are already linked together and to your account and your identity. It would be trivial for anyone with legit beef to acquire the link too.
That goes with any other centralized services.

What you need is a custom made application where it uses some sort of mixing service for each payment. Either a centralized one through an API or participate in CoinJoin but both of these methods could have limitations such as not being able to pay anything below a certain amount (eg. <0.01BTC) or having to only pay round numbers, etc.
Otherwise anything else you do yourself (such as having many transaction outputs, aka coins, and paying each customer using separate coins) will eventually link them together like when you are left with a lot of change and have to consolidate them.

Charlene777

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Quote from: crwth on August 30, 2021, 08:37:20 PM

I'm thinking of the problems that could occur with your inquiry. The first is that you need to have balances on separate addresses to have a different fund source. It would be another step to have an internal transaction first before sending, so it may be straining for you. The second is that having a web-based wallet can be prone to hacking. It's better to have a more secure wallet for that.

Maybe develop something like that. Automatically send it as an internal transaction first before sending it out, etc.

There isn't a major problem with using a browser wallet. We used coinbase for over a year with 2fa and it was perfectly fine. We limit the balance held there of course.

As for your other solution does electrum have something like that -- send btc to a freshly created address, and then from there send to the client? Would that work?

crwth

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I'm thinking of the problems that could occur with your inquiry. The first is that you need to have balances on separate addresses to have a different fund source. It would be another step to have an internal transaction first before sending, so it may be straining for you. The second is that having a web-based wallet can be prone to hacking. It's better to have a more secure wallet for that.

Maybe develop something like that. Automatically send it as an internal transaction first before sending it out, etc.

Charlene777

newbie

Activity: 22

Merit: 3

Quote from: Jawhead999 on August 30, 2021, 08:05:52 PM

You can use BTCPay integrated with Payjoin [1] to make your transaction will not linked with each other, but you need to host yourself to run BTCPay with some requirement 4GB RAM and 500GB hard drive [2]

But the problem of BTCPay with Payjoin transaction is most of wallet still doesn't support Payjoin, because your customer should use a wallet that support Payjoin or the transaction will be linked.

[1] https://docs.btcpayserver.org/Payjoin/
[2] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/list-bitcoin-payment-processors-5259548

Hello,
From their website it seems they help you provide a unique btc address to a paying customer but not vice versa, i.e. provide a unique sending btc address for each transfer sent to a customer.
What kind of wallet would not support a payjoin transaction? We certainly can't ask customers to sign up at something like that, nobody would want to do the work!

Jawhead999

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You can use BTCPay integrated with Payjoin [1] to make your transaction will not linked with each other, but you need to host yourself to run BTCPay with some requirement 4GB RAM and 500GB hard drive [2]

But the problem of BTCPay with Payjoin transaction is most of wallet still doesn't support Payjoin, because your customer should use a wallet that support Payjoin or the transaction will be linked.

[1] https://docs.btcpayserver.org/Payjoin/
[2] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/list-bitcoin-payment-processors-5259548

Charlene777

newbie

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Merit: 3

Quote from: seoincorporation on August 30, 2021, 07:36:48 PM

There are a couple of solutions, all the payments can be done from the same address if you use a Mixing service, just put the payment address on the mixer output and that should do the magic.

Another option is to use another exchange with low fees or a casino to make the payments as a site withdraw.

Mixer service would slow down the transfer and would be quite expensive, right?

What other exchange do you recommend for this?
I looked at kucoin and stormgain and their withdrawal fees are an insanely high 0.0006 btc or about 25 USD which is impossible cause our transfers to customers are normally around 100 USD. We would be paying 25%!

Certainly I wouldn't keep funds in a casino, lol.

seoincorporation

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There are a couple of solutions, all the payments can be done from the same address if you use a Mixing service, just put the payment address on the mixer output and that should do the magic.

Another option is to use another exchange with low fees or a casino to make the payments as a site withdraw.

Charlene777

newbie

Activity: 22

Merit: 3

I need a wallet where we can send various transactions (e.g. 10 per day) to customers but where the different transactions are not linked. Otherwise my customers will be linked. Each sending address should be different. Best is if it's a browser wallet cause we are 3 different people on the team that manage the transfers out and are in different locations.

Was just using a coinbase account cause I think transfers sent can only be traced back to coinbase which is quite generic but they closed my account cause of my location. Don't want to deal with an exchange if possible.

Are there any good solutions?

Topic: Bitcoin wallet that doesn't link transactions sent? (Read 198 times)