Topic: Bitcoiners kill Bitcoin, and governments are happy, boycott the CEXs (Read 945 times)

Thank you! This is an interesting information. Of course, I heard about something like that before, but the way it's explained in the Last Week Tonight with John Oliver is amazing, and it's definitely worth watching. The "middlemen of surveillance capitalism". F***ing hilarious! And a bit scary, I must say.

what you find is a single datapoint of say "email address". is only worth $0.0001
but some businesses want email addressess of people "aged 30-50", "male". and "enjoy chocolate"

this creates a basket datapoint value that is worth $0.02 due to it being a subgroup of a subgroup of a sub group  specific to a datapoint

its much like if you had a burger, a sausage, some onions, some cheese. and 4 condiments.
first appears to be just 8 ingredients(points) yet can be combined into hundreds of different varients of points

there are other double data points
eg one data point of: "meat eater".. is not just "enjoys meat", but also "non vegan"
eg "lives in the UK" is not just "british resident" but also "pound(£) user", "HMRC tax payer", "uses british brands"

its very very easy to create 1000 or even 11,000 data points by just knowing 110 things about someone where you can create new datapoints by combining a couple separate points into one larger subgroup datapoint
Eg "non vegan, under 30, female"

---

governments dont buy the random crap about if your a vegan or do you buy coffee
the FATF pay for KYC info that is supplied to them from suspicious activity. as a payment for delegating exchanges to police its customers
the tax office also as a separate agency pays for information on people of working age trading over $1k-$10k.. and $10k-$100k sub groups

governments dont care that you bought coffee using a starbucks giftcard you bought with crypto

but rival coffee companies would be interested in starbucks gift card customers.

No different really to when you keep your coins on a centralized exchange, and that exchanges decides to censor your transactions or freeze your account entirely because you did or said something they didn't like, tried to send money to someone they didn't like, or even just live under a regime they don't like. See my thread here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/recent-events-should-make-everyone-withdraw-all-their-coins-to-their-own-wallets-5387401

Have a read about data brokers. It is a multi-trillion dollar industry which most people don't even realize exists. Have a read of my thread here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-beginners-should-pay-attention-to-their-privacy-5394338. A single data broker company known as Acxiom has 11,000 data points on 2.5 billion individuals. 11,000 data points! Can you even think up a thousand data points about yourself? Now try 11,000! Everything from age, gender, address, through to employment, education, politics, religion, through to far more insidious things like financial history, purchases, debt, health conditions. They know what you like to watch, when you like to watch it, what you like to watch it on, and who you like to watch it with. They know what house you live in, who lives there with you, their relationship to you, how many bedrooms it has, and how much you pay in rent or mortgage. They know what health conditions you have or when you might be trying for a baby before your doctor does based on your internet search history, social media use, and recording of your private conversations. And yes, they know what exchanges you are signed up to, what addresses you use to deposit and withdraw from those exchanges, and how much money you are moving through those exchanges and when.

These data broker companies sell data to literally anyone who is willing to pay them, and governments are more than happy to spend your tax money on this.

I didn't know about that, and now I don't know how to verify this information, but considering your reputation I believe you. I must say, it sucks then. And not because I think all governments are evil by nature(I'm not an anarchist), but because it's a fact that there are bad guys in any government, and they can try to use the info against you.

here is the thing though,

there are 3 aspects
"property"
"currency"
"assets & commodity"

when bitcoin was just a property 2009-2014 government had no jurisdictions over crypto.
businesses(CEX) were just swap shops, like selling/buying trading cards. no regulations required

users fear was
if businesses would honour users deposits as still users property once converted to business displayed balance.
if strangers, peers would honour payments transfers as legal contract for goods/services
which would even today require a court claim if there was legal dispute over ownership/contract/agreements where a business/individual refused to honour agreements
...
when countries began to see crypto as a currency, this opened the door to some regulators who mainly had jurisdiction over just the businesses that service a currency for a fee, requiring said businesses to police its customers, identify them and report any suspicious currency uses

when regulators fought over the category of currency, (either asset or commodity) different jurisdictions got involved where they could get more involved with the crypto itself
EG as a commodity regulator could put quota's on trade value/yield or put circuit breaks on a crypto that pumps/dumps passed a limit of volatility, aswell as restrict whom can trade/be an accredited holder.. an environmental regulators can put production limits and environmental bans on the ways production is done

..
alot of people should have fought off the "currency" recognition and now fought off the "commodity" recognition as both allowed regulation to overstep and leap into controlling aspects of crypto that have not helped users. but hindered them

but due to the dream of "mainstream" they let regulators categorise crypto
such as highlighted by LeGaulois

these regulations and categories have not been consumer protection regulators though. 99.99% of them then are the banker regulators wanting to hinder/stifle crypto in favour of banking practices(most ceo of regulators are ex bankers)

governments cant and dont control bitcoin.. politicians do not sit at computers watching everyones purchases. governments dont walk around asic farms seeing if they are using renewable energy or using the most efficient miners. governments are simply lobbied by the banking industry, to put in laws to let banker led regulators to have powers to hinder/stifle bitcoin by classifying crypto into a jurisdiction that allows regulators(ex bankers) to step in
also governments are lobbied by the ex bankers where governments delegate regulators to do all the work

its getting a bit late to just say boycott CEX, because now even defi-DEX have to be careful.

even the likes of sub networks like lightning, if you are a payment router you are facilitating a transfer of currency for a fee...
.. and banks are watching for users who do too many bank wires in trades on their personal bank accounts to treat them as a unlicensed business breaching their personal bank account policies

so its not "businesses" fault. its the declarations of "currency" "asset/commodity" that has lead to this over stepping of regulators that delegate businesses to police its customers

as for things that are businesses fault. they have always had property law even before crypto, by which possession is 9/10ths of the law. its upto the business/recipient to be honourable and agree to terms that give rights to people that handed them property, currency.. which is why #NotYourKeyNotYourCrypto is important to keep in mind

..
separate from that. no matter what bitcoin was defined as, handing any funds to a stranger you cant slap with a rotten fish is always a risk. whether a business or individual.
once they have your coins the only true method to get them back if they are dishonourable is via court.. if you can locate them to serve a court claim upon them

This stuff with crypto is funny, sometimes I'm tired with this industry, people are sheeps.

Showing you something to argue with a point I was talking about in the original post.

Look at Indonesia, this country intends to sell Bitcoin to its population, as part of a reform to regulate the cryptocurrency industry.
They will create their own CEX during 2023 and the citizens will be able to buy & sell BTC (and altcoins)
And of course, most Indonesians (include bitcointalk users) will use it because it will be easier and more convenient when it's about to sell and getting the money to the bank account

Bitcoin, a P2P payment method...using government agency. Great deal.


We decide the laws, we decide where you can buy, and we decide what you can do or not with it.
Irony: this country was one that decided to ban any payment using BTC, if I remember correctly

A decentralized currency, with centralized entities that decide


Another exemple to show that when it's not via government, it's via companies
It was a post from me in the French forum (I translate it)



sorry for the late reply.

It's the person who registered the account on the centralized exchange who have to report it
Failure to report, we (the citizens) pay the fine.

Maybe they were once, but I think they have run their course. There is nothing of real utility (i.e. on/off ramps, not staking for 70% APY or other such obvious scams which are of no real world utility) that a centralized exchange offers that is not offered by a decentralized exchange in a safer, more secure, and more private way. The problem with advising newbies to use centralized exchanges are spelled out by myself and LeGaulois above - once they realize the huge risk and lifelong implications from completing KYC on a centralized exchange, it is too late to reverse their decision and they will forever have their government and various third party agencies spying on their bitcoin activities.

And yeah, this doesn't just apply to centralized exchanges, but other centralized scams in this space, like the vast majority of altcoins.

What OP mentioned just wanted to emphasize bitcoin, and he is absolutely right, but when we talk about the crypto market, CEX really matters, IMO. CEX is a bank, and they are garbage for pure bitcoin investors, but for us who invest anywhere for profit, CEX is indispensable.

DEX, even if it is further developed, cannot replace CEX, if you are a trader, if you do not use CEX, there will be no second choice to make a profit.

I completely understand and agree with what the OP mentioned, but we can say we failed because 99% of the participants in this market are for profit and not using bitcoin as a means of payment as the original purpose.

Okay, yeah. I thought centralized exchanges only send their users data to the government when they request it, but now i know better, i guess that is why being a member in this forum is great, if you read often, you learn everyday.

@LeGaulois, with the way things work in your own country, i want to know, when you say "we have to declare..." in your post, do you mean the centralized exchange have to declare it to the government, or do you mean the person who registered the account on the centralized exchange have to report it and provide all these details, which of the two? And failure to report, who pays the fine?

---

Happy new year people.

Since you are bringing up a comparison between Bitcoin and Christianity, I will continue in order to contradict you.

No, not all Christians derived from the Bible. There are many of us who follow the rules in the strict sense of the word. I don't eat pork, don't drink alcohol, am against abortion, divorce, practice the Great Lent and so on. I have not been washed by the Vatican Council 2.
Why am I talking about this? Because the Vatican is centralized (like the CEX). A pope is not the words of Jesus, he is an entity in charge of "centralizing" and "giving directions". I only listen to Jesus and nobody else.

It's exactly the same with centralized platforms, and it doesn't matter what type (CEX, web wallet,) I don't want THEIR ideologies imposed. Which is often very different from Bitcoin's ideology anyway. And that's what deputies also do when  try to introduce laws that are totally against the ideology of cryptos. I only listen to Satoshi and nobody else
Otherwise, I have no use of cryptocurrencies and should leave it to going back to use fiat


Following @o_e_l_e_o's answer I will add that he is right and I will quote the situation in my country.

We have to declare every year the accounts on the CEXs (even closed account, yes closed account), and if we don't do it, we have to pay a fine of 750€ per account.
We have to provide them with details that are sometimes difficult to find, like the date of opening of your account. You have to be able to prove all deposits, transactions, trades and withdrawals.

If they were able to make a law with a 750€ fine, it's because they can know that. Otherwise they wouldn't have created a law knowing that they can't catch the villains.

Once you touch a CEX, you're busted. And the things will get worse in the future.

---

Happy new years guys.

I believe that is where the problem starts, new comers are being hijacked by these centralized services inculcating different versions of what satoshi envisioned.  They even have the courage to state that self-custody will incur more losses than keeping their cryptocurrency on exchanges promoting the anti-not your keys, not your coins idealism.

point taken, I may have lapses in research regarding the nature of these scams. Reading all these opened my eyes a little regarding just how far the rabbit hole goes when it comes to heinous acts of crime made by centralized exchanges. I do understand they became brooding grounds of scam and taking advantage of hapless people who are so trusting. My point is that, I think as much flak as they are receiving right now, centralized exchanges are still a great addition to the industry. In a sense that they became gateways for people who are still learning the ropes of the crypto exchange.

Celsius and Voyager were centralized exchanges and lending platforms, so they are included in the umbrella of CEXs. Terra was a centralized altcoin with their own centralized platform.

Every major hack, collapse, scam, bankruptcy, etc., in bitcoin's history had been of a centralized platform, service, exchange, altcoin, whatever. From Bitconnect to Luna, from Mt Gox to FTX, from ICOs to DeFi. It's always some centralized trash promising the world and delivering nothing.

I understand you and your statement, I myself hate loss of funds in all of its forms and manner as much as the next guy, but to link loss of funds exclusively to centralized exchanges just because one of them turned out to be a scam in one of the most substantial moments in crypto history is just absurd in my opinion. Loss of funds in Centralized exchanges are but a drop of water in an ocean of possible reasons and fields these acts of offense could thrive.

I agree, the issue with CEX especially FTX coming out to be a scam seriously hampered crypto's advance, but there are other facets to look at, recency bias is taking over the people's minds when there were more grave offenses committed in the crypto space that aren't CEX's Fault. Celsius, Voyager, Terra/Luna, for instance. Why are we not focusing on these ones, when they are just as damaging if not even more impactful than CEXs?

As soon as you complete KYC on an exchange, then that exchange is cross referencing the data you provide them with identity data held by your government, so immediately your government can know that you have opened an account with that exchange. Most jurisdictions will require the exchanges to keep complete records of everything you are doing and provide them to various agencies in order to comply with AML laws, and similarly if you trade above a certain amount then you will be automatically reported to various agencies for tax reasons. None of this requires any suspicion of wrongdoing first. And even if they don't provide data to your government directly, we know that centralized exchanges all share or sell data to blockchain analysis companies (or even run their own blockchain analysis subsidiaries), and that governments extensively purchase data and rent the services of such companies.

I mean, just go and read the privacy policy of an exchange like Coinbase, for example: https://www.coinbase.com/legal/privacy. It is so extensive and all encompassing, it essentially gives them carte blanche to do anything they like with your data.

I don't think there is any centralized service (even non-crypto related) that reports their users personal information to the government by default. But there is a reason they collect it, and part of it is that they would report it to the government if ever there is any need to, there is that possibility.

And many times the government never require it, but they get hacked and it gets stolen by bad actors, or there could be an inside job and someone sells the information out, or they could even file for bankruptcy and the court needs the information. In my humble opinion, i think the point is just that registering on centralized exchanges means your activities and personal info can be out in the public for one reason or the other.

I don't want to defend CEXs in any way, because so many respected by me people are against them, and I think they know better than me, and, also, I personally don't use them, but just to be clear. Centralized exchanges report all your activities only if an order has been issued by a court, or something like that. They are not doing it by default, right?

The original idea of Satoshi has been greatly defeated. I am not sad about it. Satoshi was a wise guy who solved a world big problem. But he isn't a spirit to know how the future will fare.
I don't expect that bitcoin remains as proposed by Satoshi year in year out.
Even in Christianity, the Christians have deviated from the original plans and instructions of Christ and yet there is Christianity.
Bitcoin and it's usage will keep metamorphosising

You can try atomicDEX: https://atomicdex.io/en/.
I doubt the liquidity is great though. Still, you can use it as a non-custodial and open-source wallet, as a bridge, and a DEX. The DEX works with Bitcoin, Ethereum, BNB, Komodo, Avalanche, Polygon, and a bunch of other networks. Too bad they don't support Tron and Tron-based tokens. It could be useful to have a bridge between USDT (TRC20), BTC, and ETH, for example. I don't know if there is such a solution right now besides CEXs.   

The crypto economy will survive, but people will find it hard to make investment, buying and trading practice. It had turned to be common to experience hacks and security breach, but the Exchanges taking responsibility need to be appreciated. Through exchanges common people who want to invest into cryptocurrencies can make use of it.

With big issues arising out of Exchanges at certain time interval makes a bad image among the people who are staying outside the market to make the entry into cryptocurrency. With time more Dex could be found on the market, but the usage will be limited against the CeX.

I am not sure if the crypto economy could sustain without the CEX world. I mean just the fiat conversion alone is a big deal, but even crypto to crypto, if you use DEX then most likely you are using just one chain. Are there any places that offer you bridge and multiple chains and even dex aggregator that allows you to use any dex you want? Sure, but they are not as big, 1inch is there and you see how big it is, and that's the biggest one.

So, it's easy to say that we are not going to exactly get what we need, and that's why it can't happen for the time being. Maybe in the future it could get a little bit better but I am not sure if it's going to be anytime soon.

Perhaps. That is something that cannot be ruled out. But many more centralized services will go bankrupt in the future. We will continue to see and read about hacks, exit scams, and data leaks. We will listen to complaints about frozen accounts, confiscated balances, and stricter verification requirements. I think those negative experiences will keep increasing that small group despite people's custom to forget and forgive the harm done to them.

Yeah, that's what I am saying. It gives you more control on the situation. I mean, you can film the whole scenario in your brain, the whole book that will 10 times exceed with story and everything to two hours movie. Maybe it wasn't a good example  but hope that I made the point clear: People prefer basic control over advanced control because of the readiness and easiness of the product and service that's offered from someone that's commercially motivated.

You forgot that people easily forget. That small group may become a little bigger but as time passes by, that bigger group will become smaller and the cycle will continue on until something gamechanger happens and someone sets the standard.

But it's not just one that have gone bad, many has gone bad over the years even without going mainstream as FTX did. Centralized exchange disappear with customers funds and nothing get done about it. It's now like a normal occurrence in the market.
During the bear market, we expected atleast one exchange to go bankrupt and it's not because of lack of patronage instead due to the bad investment decision of the exchanges. Centralized exchange are causing more harm than good to their customers.
People lose their life savings mainly because the exchange has made them believe their funds are safe with them meanwhile they aren't. Centralized exchange make their customers to lose focus on security and yet the platforms aren't secured. We don't have to defend them, there's no gain in doing so.

The problem with this approach is that once you have entangled yourself in centralized exchanges, it is significantly harder to untangle yourself than if you never used them in the first place. You have a bunch of coins which are connected to your real identity which you then have to thoroughly mix or coinjoin to break that link, you've already given away your personal information and KYC documents and they remain at risk of being stolen/sold/leaked forever, and it is impossible to delete all the information that exchange has gathered on you and shared with third parties. If you use a proper DEX from the outset, you avoid all of this.

I have no problem with people using bitcoin as a store of value. Such is the beauty of bitcoin - you can use it in any way you like and no one can stop you from doing so. What I have a problem with is centralized exchanges turning themselves in to banks and losing billions of dollars of money belonging to average people as they gamble deposits for their own profit, all while selling user data to governments and third parties.

A movie can never show you the details like a book can. Books are much more detailed and capable of presenting more than the action on the screen. A good book is much more personal and inspires you to think. Movies present the things as they and how those who made the movies want them to be. Completely different worlds.

Whenever something like the FTX disaster happens, people get scared and make noise. A few decide to make drastic changes, but a much bigger group decides to retreat until the situation calms down a bit, only to resume where they stopped earlier. It's those who make changes that will eventually learn that there are better ways to deal with crypto and bitcoin than they did in the past. And with every incident, that small group grows a little bigger. But it will take a lot of time. 

People do not have to lose all of their money in centralized exchanges for BTC to be adopted globally, i don't think you or anybody would be okay with losing money in a collapsed centralized exchange. In my humble opinion, loss of funds actually hasn't or doesn't help anyone, it instead slows down global adoption because it creates fear in people who don't understand that it wasn't the BTC network that collapsed, but a service that is not related to it. When people are scared and don't trust BTC, they do not use it and there can't be global adoption, but if there is less cases of funds completely lost in collapsed exchanges, more people and organizations would want to use the coin which results in global adoption.

Not just one centralized exchange has gone bad, but many of them, from Mt. Gox till ftx and many more would still go bad, but yet i am not advocating for hate or total boycott of centralized exchanges, but for people to use it in the right way if they want to use it, which is for trading and nothing else, if you only trade quickly in centralized exchanges there is a small chance that you will be caught up if it collapses, so you may never lose funds if you do it that way. There are other risks such as privacy, censorship and confiscation, but we can discuss about that later, just move your funds out and don't store them there most importantly.

Bitcoin purists are what's killing bitcoin in my opinion. They want bitcoin to stick to its main agenda as if straying away from its supposed directive isn't whay made bitcoin popular. No matter how you hate on what bitcoin is becoming, you cannot hide the fact that as a store-of-value, it had gone to so many feats and achievements, abd has touched and changed the lives of millions of its supporters. I used to hate on how bitcoin is being regarded of back then, considering the fact that Satoshi himself wanted bitcoin to become a seamless transaction machine that could bridge millions of miles in distance with minimal transaction fees, but who's to say he doesn't like this version of bitcoin? Who's to say Satoshi hates that bitcoin is very valuable now?


As in the case with Centralized Exchanges like FTX, you couldn'r really stop them from existing, and apart from FTX and all other failed iterations of CEXs, it has helped millions of people around the world and frankly enough hastened the process of global adoption by a longshot. So to hate and boycott on Centralized exchanges just because one of them has gone bad is a hasty generalization in my opinion.

Yeah, there's no extreme way to do things for most regular people. Even I still use centralised P2P (Localbitcoins) a lot more than decentralised P2P -- mainly because of escrow and very good dispute settlement, which I would always recommend newcomers to wet their toes in first before trying non-custodials. That's also where I found my personal trusted network of direct P2P so I liquidate and transfer over fiat to myself in literal minutes.

We need to remember that the majority of regular people just want something easy and fuss-free. We're a while away from that without centralised services (not JUST CEXs).

In my opinion this is a crazy opinion for someone to hold. Everyone on the planet can keep a small object safe. If they couldn't, then we wouldn't have keys to your house, keys to your car, mobile phones, bank cards, cash, passports,  etc. It is something that everyone learns from a young age. Writing down 12 words on a piece of paper and keeping it safe really is no different. To simultaneously believe that you can't keep 12 words safe when you have been keeping various objects safe your whole life, while also thinking a complete stranger will keep your coins safe when we've just seen millions of users of dozens of exchanges lose everything over the past few months, is crazy.

It's impossible to become rich when you let a scammer run away with your entire stash which you willing sent to their centralized scam exchange.

As time passes by, the more problems are solved in our daily life and easier, more comfortable it's becoming. What's more popular among people, to watch movie or to read the book? To watch movie, because the scene is in front of your eyes, it's just easier product that book that's written. In first case you watch frames, and in case of book, you read alphabets and you have to turn on your imagination, 2x process and still the first one seems more easy, satisfying for the majority of people despite the fact that there is a huge difference between movie and book and the fact that in first case they see someone's perception while book gives them possibility to see the whole scenario from your own perception.

I don't know why you guys think that people want more decentralization and more security. Yeah, probably they'll say that they want but never forget that everyone wants to be rich while 99.9% don't want to do what it requires to be rich too. So, people may want privacy as some may say (I genuinely believe that half of population doesn't really care too much) but at the same time they don't want to go through all the processes that it requires. It's much easier to open the online wallet and trade or click on send/receive button.
Easy solutions, even riskier, will always succeed more than the harder one.

That's true. Still, it's going to take years and decades before people learn that the digits they see on accounts with their names next to the account numbers isn't theirs. They aren't the custodians, and they have agreed to terms and conditions that are against their best interests. I think that when we get to a point where there is a close to equal number of those who know the difference between self-custody compared to the ones that believe centralized accounts mean ownership, we have come a long way. And when I say "we", I mean all humans, not bitcoin enthusiasts.

I don't use centralized exchanges (haven't used them for a few years, at least not those where you store money on an exchange and have a profile), but to me, this topic doesn't have to be so polarized. I don't blame people who do use centralized exchanges because it is convenient to them, especially if people do trading. I also understand that some people will use centralized platforms to store their funds despite the risk of something like FTX because privacy and being your own financial manager just isn't appealing for everyone, and some feel safer with a trusted company than with their own devices, being afraid more of losing the seed than of an exchange performing a scam or being hacked. I believe we should be welcoming to people who make different decisions, as long as these people realize the risks and try making informed decisions that work for them.

The proof of keys days achieves nothing, unfortunately. Only a minority of people take part it in, which does not prove exchanges are solvent at all. Even if you somehow managed to convince a majority of people to take part in it, then the exchanges could simply take out a loan or recall some outstanding investments to cover the withdrawals for a single day, then go right back to their fractional reserve scam the day after.

Centralized exchanges do what the government tells them, report all your activities to your government, freeze accounts and censor transactions they don't like, are fractional reserve, risk your money to make profits for themselves, and general keep your under their control. That's pretty much a bank in my book.

Fair point, but I would point out that as you correctly note, until you have also gone through the on-chain network confirmations to withdraw coins from the CEX to your own wallet, your trade is almost meaningless and you own nothing.

Unfortunately, the speed of the transactions and interactions are the things people care about. Get the coins or be under the impression that you have them (because you don't until the point they are moved from the CEX to your own personal non-custodial wallet) as soon as possible. That's why we see threads pop up all the time on Bitcointalk where people are saying, I was supposed to receive BTC 2 hours ago, but the transaction is not confirmed yet. What should I do? Will I lose my money? Please help me it's urgent.   

There is one point where DEXs are really inconvenient or less convenient than CEXs if you want. And that is being online if you want your offer to be accepted or remain visible in the orderbook. With a CEX, you place a buy/sell order, turn off your device, and continue with your life. You can't do that on Bisq. If a buyer wants to purchase your coins, you need to be online for the multisig transactions to be made. And each transaction requires on-chain network confirmations. All of that takes much more time than clicking the buy/sell button on a CEX. Since people are impatient and/or lazy, many don't want that.

CEXs are much worse than banks in normal civilized countries.

This is nicely written, but hardest to follow by the current community. Forget about the people who started with bitcoin from the start and also in the mid decade because they know the real use case of bitcoin and they wont be changing anything with the time. What is fearful is, the Gen Z who is all set to only make the profits out of the bitcoin and thus make it ready for its own collapse. Bitcoin's true value is in the circulation and in the peer to peer approach rather than investing into it and using it as trading instrument. If they are going to use that way then there would be hard waves coming in the near future. Neither the tech is getting developed nor the proper infra to use to on the scale of hundred percent.

Some of the world's ongoing events such as the FTX scandal, the war between Russia and Ukraine have led to a downturn in the Bitcoin market, making Bitcoin haters happy.  Many governments around the world are not directly opposed to Bitcoin, but their central banks and fiat systems are directly opposed to Bitcoin.  One of the main reasons for this is that Bitcoin is a decentralized system where no central bank or government system can control the Bitcoin section.  Moreover, Bitcoin requires significant changes in the internal interest rate and capital system of their banks, which causes substantial financial losses for central banks.  Moreover, another reason for the government's hatred of Bitcoin is the independent mechanism.  Bitcoin is independent without government.  One of the main principles of government is the regulatory system that Bitcoin cannot demonstrate within.

My first reaction was, let's boycott CEXs, but after reading this thread I started thinking, maybe CEXs are not that bad after all? I mean, are they really same as banks? Banks are controlled by the government, even private ones to some extent. And you basically have no option but to keep your money in a bank. CEXs, on the other hand, can be avoided, you can use them only when you want to.

Are we going against what Satoshi created Bitcoin for? afaik he made it to compete against banks and might have not seen it as a global currency that we are all hoping for. Bitcoin might have already achieved the goals that satoshi wanted and that is why they left when they did. Taking advantage of the volatility is not a bad thing bitcoin was designed with volatility in mind and allows normal people to escape poverty which I think is a good thing.

We're out of options here. We all despise Bitcoin, but we must use it for various reasons. We can't ignore CEX's contribution to Bitcoin adaptation, but on the other hand, CEX has been destroying Bitcoin recently. I understand that Bitcoin is not on the way Satoshi created it. People are currently gambling with Bitcoin in order to make money. We're not just using Bitcoin to conduct borderless transactions with no third parties. We are also taking advantage of the volatility. Recently, there have been a few rumors about Binance as well. If this happens again, the crypto industry will collapse dramatically. So, at the very least, we should avoid putting money into CEX after bought coins.

There's that proof of keys day that should honestly be much bigger than it is, especially that there's a big exchange collapse almost every single year.

I'm not for boycotting CEXs because they offer a decent bridge between the banking system and cryptocurrencies, but people are using them the wrong way. They should always be used for fast transactions and nothing else. They're not banks, they're not your portfolio managers. They want to be because if you're dumb enough to hold money with them they'll make more money by loaning out your crypto, which is why they all offer those nice APIs where you see the total worth of your portfolio in real time, where you can stake, where you get new shitcoins for free... This is all there to make you stay. Don't fall for it!

It is easy to fall into the trap when you are new and do not understand wallet software to store on an exchange and then people just get trapped. They think they are safe because that is all they know and eventually they will hear about not your keys and not your coins but most people do not make the switch because they have not run into a problem yet and think it cannot happen to them. I stored Bitcoin on a CEX for many years before I realized that was a bad idea and I would say I am computer savvy so for the people who are not computer savvy that is a real problem.

You are right that we live in a centralized world, our banks, data, travel details are all held by government agencies. Bitcoin was created to free our financial matters from regulating bodies. A decade since its launch there is need felt for centralized exchanges  like the country where I live bitcoin is completely banned, there is only one way I can convert bitcoin to fiat and that's through centralized exchange like binance.
I know that's not what Bitcoin is created for but we have to consider the centralized aspect into consideration also.

I think you are correct in this statement you have made. Like I always say in my previous comments, that centralised exchange are the government regulatory arm that checkmates activities on blockchain via centralised exchange and they indirectly make us do kyc which requires us revealing our identity through uploading of means of identity via identity card issued by government, drivers license, international passport etc.which means they have their raider on us.
 They do this to monitor transactions and people behind the transactions and the nature of the transaction. Although the centralised exchange have their own benefit in as much as they do have disadvantages.

having fiat and wanting bitcoin usually means needing a fiat gateway to get bitcoin. hence the CEX convenience. but it should be taught by everyone introducing friends and family to crypto. only use CEX as a entry-exit gateway.. not a custody/bank
(coin in-coin out same day.. not hoard on exchange)


WTF are you on about

there was a price movement on november 11th. so thats what your price chart shows.. (ill come back to describing what that event was)

there was a balance drop soon after that..
in december, (today) by your chart shows 1.9m not your 2.35
your own chart shows that there was no balance of 2.35



now here is the thing. the bankruptcy of ftx/media hysteria of FTX was not in october.. it was november 11th

the peak of the green and orange lines was the november 6th-11th period of cz backing out of FTX(6th) and then whistleblowing and then on the 11th ftx filing bankruptcy

the price drop on november 11th WAS the FTX EVENT

october had 2.08, early november went to 2.12(call it nov 6th)
and then boom FTX drama. and the drop

price and coin, even in your chart has not gone above october levels

The whole world we live in is centralized, people use centralized systems every day, how do you now expect btc to remain decentralized?
This global adoption bitcoiners shout all the time, how is it going to be truly achieved with a decentralized system? i doubt anyone will be willing to live in a country with a decentralized system of government where most information will be hidden from the people, even the government official's identity will be private, and all operations will be private. exchanges are not the problem but people who use them as their personal wallets.
Perhaps we should have our views from both sides.

There is no Denial in that statment because centralized exchanges are getting shittier day by day but we also have to realize the fact there is no complete alternative there for centralized exchanges for now.

Yes, there are decentralized exchanges and p2p but the volumes are nowhere comparable so it stress the real cryptocurrency enthusiast who cares about privacy still have to go with shitty regulated exchange to buy their cryptocurrencies at fair price or else they have to compromise a lot to buy with complete anonymous in huge scale.

They do.
Yes, Bitcoin will survive, and I don't deny it, but Bitcoin is not the same compared to a few years ago, and totally different from what it was supposed to be. Let's say the Bitcoin's ideology is now a hybrid bitcoin's ideology

You admit what I was saying. People are too lazy to look around how truly works Bitcoin. So lazy that they don't want to handle their private keys themselves. If the volume on the centralized exchange is higher, that's again people are lazy.

Question: why to use a decentralized currency in a centralized circle?

---

People are listening because the FTX scandal is happening. Once the story is over on the media and social medias, I'm pretty sure they will come back to their favorite CEXs. (Remember, they're too lazy).
While several companies will die, whatever if it's a CEX, mining companies, etc (and it's happening, see Core Scientist and others). Some others will survive and become more stronger, so with more monopoly, more influence on the bitcoin's industry, and more centralization.

Same question for you: why to use a decentralized currency in a centralized circle? Isn't it ironic?
#followthemoney #longlifetocapitalism.

ps: I believe your data is misleading perhaps. See what I mean Bitcoin Balances on Exchanges
30D/7D change, there isn't really a trend of people leaving exchange platform
On October 31 (before FTX so): 2.08M
On December 2021: 2.35M

In yellow the BTC's price. It seems related to the price and not any event happening during 2022. And we got quite a few.



So if it's more related to the price, we may argue people start to hodl theirs coins outside but still use the CEXs when they want to trade.
That's still the same problem, using centralized stuff..

Giving your KYC data to use a non-KYC currency... That's perhaps the best joke in this industry

---

Fair, but the gamblers looking for a quick profit and here we can include individuals and companies bring the capitalism ideology.
The same thing we compain about with the traditionnal fincance, the same thing that make us switching to a decentralized currency.
Capitalism is the cancer in the finance/economy

"How are we supposed to deal with criminals, terrorists, money launderers, etc. who are abusing the same privacy that we so much crave for their own illicit activities?"

Nothing much. They're not able to do it properly with fiats, why they could be better with cryptos?
Wasn't Bitcoin supposed to be (pseudo) anonymous, giving financial freedom, with nobody blocking you etc?

Question: why to use a decentralized currency in a centralized circle?

---

But they don't listen!
Places like BISQ, since @Wind_FURY talks about it, aren't difficult to use. How hard is to use Bisq? I'm sure a 10 years old children can use it after reading for some minutes.

"How are we supposed to deal with criminals, terrorists, money launderers, etc. who are abusing the same privacy that we so much crave for their own illicit activities?"

Nothing much. They're not able to do it properly with fiats, why they could be better with cryptos?
Wasn't Bitcoin supposed to be (pseudo) anonymous, giving financial freedom, with nobody blocking you etc?

Question: why to use a decentralized currency in a centralized circle?

We all have have made one costly mistakes that almost drain us but look at where we are today, at least we are recalcitrant to invest in most unpopular projects in the space that we don't have full required information about. CEX do have a positive change in the market but it's highly time to switch to a new heights and adapts for what yields profits. Everyone have their own choices to make, there's numerous people that still welcome the idea to use CEX but there are those that have no business concerning using CEX. We grow knowledge at certain stage in life as we're making mistakes, so as we are taking note on them.

There are speculators in every industry. It just so happens that speculation in the crypto industry is more hyped because the people talking about it either made extremely high returns on their crypto or they are bitter about not making any.

Fair enough. I was talking solely about trading bitcoin for fiat, since the vast majority of altcoins are scams. I would point out that if you are trading for some token on BSC or wrapped bitcoin or similar, then those coins/tokens are by nature completely centralized and can be seized from your wallet (any wallet) at any time. Trading them on a DEX brings little advantage since you have zero privacy or security with them anyway.

I don't think anyone can seriously claim that CEXs are in any way safe given the events of the past few months. There are few places riskier to send your coins to than a centralized exchange.

It doesn't matter what you were doing in the past. I think most of us here on this forum where using a CEX at one point or another, and, actually, it was a good thing for BTC during all those years. What matters is that you are not using it now, and you even try to convince your friends to follow your example.

Totally agree with OP. Let's boycott the CEXs from now on. They did a good job in the past, but it's time to move on. Let's not be the killers of what we love and value.

I can assure you that there were many scandals already 10 years ago, and will be the same in 10 more years. As long as there are new people in crypto every day then this will not stop. Still things get a little bit better from year to year, even if you don't see it.

In the case of branches, the less convenient part may also be true. When I use binance, I can trade many currencies, and they are legal, and when I trade on PancakeSwapper, I only trade commodities like BSC, or I use their hacked versions that are difficult to convert into cash. , and in Binance I can withdraw money in fiat form within 5 minutes from my bank account.  I think we should play now “sambad lottery ” from Nagaland state govt, instead of investing in bitcoin.  because govt is already taking steps to legalize it and take out their own currencies.

When you used to compare things together, it would have been a bit difficult and you would have understood the difference and reason for sure. There is no need to research the situation because DEX is still good, I am just saying that some people think like this.

I see CEXs very useful because it's the easiest and safest way to buy bitcoins, the problem occurs only when people start using them as wallets. They are called exchanges for a reason. If people would use them the way they are supposed to be used then we'd have way less problems.

bitcoins peer-to-peer network does as advertised.
.. disclaimer 'once you are funded in the network, and transacting in the network'

 however the offramps and onramps to get funded in the network. thats a whole different system not described in the whitepaper or experienced in the real world

yes we should prefer hand to hand paper fiat for bitcoin to on-ramp into bitcoin for the buyer and off ramp for the seller.

yes people should be doing the "disruptive technology" models of creating new business or systems that bypass the institutional services more

but for each extra bump in the road to get people away from institutional services the harder it gets (at current experience)

EG needing to go to a ATM only in business hours to then find someone you dont know at a coffee shop to do a face to face paper fiat for bitcoin trade. is more hassle than just doing a 3minute verified wire transfer into a CEX any time of the day or night for free, while at home sipping a whisky on your online bank account

so convenience takes over

bitcoin 2009-2014 was not recognise as a currency. it was deemed a property(and legally rightfully so) this meant that regulators and institutions couldnt get their paws on the gateways to bitcoin. meaning disruptive technologies of 'payment gateways' could.

however since being defined as a currency in 2014. bitcoin allowed in institutional services to facilitate the convenience ramps in and out.

then when deemed a security in 2017(asset) SEC ramped up its over reaching jurisdictional rules of the ramps in and out

then this year deeming bitcoin a commodity even more regulators can get involved. including the EPA(environmental protections agency) (yep EPA= the PoW/PoS wars of bitcoins future roadmap)

It is not only the issue but also the way people or us, using Bitcoin, of our own likeness. As mentioned in the whitepaper, Bitcoin should be used as a decentralized peer to peer transaction without the use of any financial institution. But if you would observe, Bitcoin is being more used as an asset. Most people would hesitate using it as a mode of payment because of profit concerns related to its market volatility. That is already where hypocrissy exist. People complain about issues, how governments are not using this technology and such, but we are guilty of our own ways. Many of us are pushing governments to adopt this technology but only a few has plans of really using this technology based on its true concept. So yes, I agree that we are ones who are killing this technology.

Not all CEXs are a scam. But, it's definitely not one of the best places you could keep your funds. If you keep money there, it is well advised that you don't store large amounts. While CEX offers excellent liquidity, you're better off storing funds in an offline wallet.

I think that people think that centralized exchanges are more convenient because it is something they are used to. These exchanges typically function in a similar way to traditional stock exchanges, with users able to place buy and sell orders and the exchange matching buyers and sellers. Centralized exchanges are often seen as convenient because they offer a wide range of features and services, including support for multiple cryptocurrencies, advanced trading tools, and fiat currency support. In contrast, decentralized exchanges may not offer the same level of convenience and features as centralized exchanges, and they may have lower liquidity.

It's not about blindness, it's more about greed, lack of understanding properly what they see and also impatience.
People want to get money - fiat money - very fast, as much as possible. They don't understand all these details, they don't even care about them. Heck, they don't understand nor care about bitcoin either! Of course then that way too many want a "bitcoin account", no matter that this means an account in a CEX that may fail tomorrow. All they want is to get fast to a little slice of this pie.

Yes, bitcoiners too make the mistake of using CEX sometimes. But that's a different story and the scale is smaller. There the problems might start with poorer countries and less options available and continue with the (bad) habits and laziness. Still, I think that this happens at a rather small scale.


You've just proven my point. So many coins. Greed*. I am almost sure you don't know well enough most of those. Because if you'd know, you'd notice that those "so many coins" are just a distraction, just a curtain of smoke preventing you see what makes sense to follow and what not. But why do that when you can trade/gamble between a lot of interesting names, hoping to get some easy money?
(* Please don't get offended, everybody is greedy to a certain point; of course, including myself.)

The less convenient part could also be true when it comes to chains. When I am using binance I can trade so many coins, and they are legit ones, whereas when I am trading on pancakeswap, either I trade the things only on BSC, or I use the wrapped version of them which is hard to turn into cash, whereas in Binance I can withdraw money to my bank account in fiat form within 5 minutes.

When you compare these things together then it becomes a bit harder and I understand the difference and the reason behind it for sure. It is not a situation that needs to be figured out because DEX is still better, I am just saying why some people think like that.

I strongly dislike the whole "less convenient" argument which always comes up when DEXs are discussed. The only part of using a DEX which is less convenient is clicking the actual "buy" or "sell" button at the point you want to make a trade. Everything else is more convenient. It is more convenient to sign up. It is more convenient to not have hand over all your details. It is more convenient to not have to scan your documents and complete KYC. It is more convenient to not have to wait 5 days for approval. It is more convenient to not have to link a bank account, and then wait another 5 days for your payment to clear. It is more convenient to not get hit with ridiculous withdrawal fees. It is more convenient to not wait several hours or days for your withdrawal to be approved. It is more convenient to not have your identity stolen and end up with $100,000 of debt in your name from some criminal. It is more convenient to not lose your entire stash because the CEX you chose turned out to be a scam or went bankrupt.

Imagine for a second that CEXs never existed, and using DEXs was the default that everyone was used to. A new exchange comes along and says "We are different to all the others. It is difficult to sign up, you have zero privacy, you have to risk your identity being stolen, you have zero security, you have to hand over all your coins, you could lose everything at any time with no warning and no chance of getting back a single satoshi, we'll share all your data with third parties and report all your activities to your government, we'll have random delays and downtime, frozen accounts, locked coins, delayed withdrawals, be under maintenance, insider trade, and awful customer service, but for all that it's quick when you press buy!" Who in their right mind would use this exchange?

People think it is more convenient because they are conditioned to believe that by the very CEXs which survive on them believing that.

I have to agree with on this one about CEX's, in some countries where crypto are banned they make it easier to buy/sell their funds. To new investors it is easier to learn. But this doesn't translate to leaving your heavy funds on it. People that do that are either earning through some of features there or one way or the other. If we could get DEX making it easier to learn and having some future trading futures we could do well it that. But overall CEX'S are just cunning to have funds on

basically all of this still needs improvement which is better than before, because all the problems that have occurred in the past are always related, everyone accuses each other and feels himself innocent.
and the matter of bitcoiners killing bitcoins, that is a relative thing, don't beat the average of all bitcoiners who have deviated from the purpose of bitcoin being created, because I know that most of its users definitely want profit, definitely want to always achieve what they want after adopting bitcoin.
because basically bitcoin has become a good bridge for many people who are experiencing economic problems, so don't be confused, bitcoin will still be bitcoin.

I agree about the usefulness of the CEXs as well in times of need but let's not totally ignore DCEXs because this is where our true freedom is. We don't need to use KYC or whatsoever things that will show our true identity unlike these CEXs nowadays. That's right we need to push the use of DCEXs, especially after what happened with FTX and others. now is the time to prove to them that we don't need to be locked in by the government to use their totally controlled exchanges rather we have always our own options to trade on our own with or without their help. 

This thread is indeed a wake-up call to the real Bitcoin believers and not those that are in the sector to make instant profit. Thank you for reminding us that Bitcoin was mainly designed for P2P transactions and not through centralized platforms. It is also true that the advantages of using DEX greatly outweighs that of CEX. But there are still many problems that needs to be surmounted in order to promote the use of DEX. Centralized platforms are more popular than its opposite because these exchange companies spend money on advertisement that one can comfortably insinuate that they are one of the major creators of Bitcoin awareness in many countries. Most people became aware of the currency called Bitcoin because of these exchanges. I have never seen any decentralized platform advertising Bitcoin in my area but many exchanges carryout this task.

Just like fiat and Bitcoin, Centralized exchanges should be allowed to operate side by side with their decentralized counterpart. People should be allowed to freely choose the one they want to use because they have peculiar reasons for their choice. People using CEX should not be viewed as traitors or hypocrites because you might not know their intentions. Someone might have a financial emergency and these exchanges would be the best platform to convert Bitcoin to fiat. I am sure in the nearest future there would be better alternative to these exchanges and people would gladly dump their services.
        

The problem with DEX/P2P exchanges:

harder to use/far less convenient --> far less users --> far less revenue --> far less money for advertising --> little to no advertising --> little to no users

It's not surprising to see such kind users in this forum because they're don't understand anything and just read other users opinion (especially the one who get merit), they will repeat/re-write what that's user wrote.

I agree Bitcoiners kill Bitcoin and governments are happy, but I don't agree to boycott CEXs. It's true CEX is suck and we need to avoid at all cost, but let's everyone decide to use the exchange that they want to use. We can only give an explanation about it, but we can't control their activity. After a scammer use their KYC since the exchange has poor security and then there's a police knock their door, they will learn what is privacy and why we shouldn't use CEX.

Maybe we need a guide here that shows how to use this exchanges and also some funding for advertising etc. it is hard for a non cex exchange to compete if they don’t have the advertising.

That's definitely a cancer of Bitcoiners, even on this forum. People blaming governments and banks etc. Well, what do you expect these guys to do right? Bitcoin is challenging them so they either fight against it or try to join it (and this second option is how Bitcoiners become hypocrites). But the forum is full of complainers, sometimes in Bitcoin worse than altcoins.

I must say however that it is not easy to give up centralised services. For selling fine, it is good enough to find alternatives.

But for example gambling, which is my major use of Bitcoin, how do I find an alternative? And I keep my balance on casinos for a long time.

The same Bitcoiners, who are killing Bitcoin are the ones, who made a 60K price possible.
The Bitcoin/crypto world has been viewed as another form of "casino capitalism" since 2013. 99% of the people involved in the Bitcoin/crypto world are here only to put some fiat money into crypto and get more fiat money when they sell their crypto. Can you blame them for this?
They don't care about using CEXs or DEXs. Actually the centralized exchanges are more convenient than the DEXs. The people choose convenience over safety and privacy. Can you blame them for this?
This speculative behavior is the main reason why we have bull waves on the crypto markets. Without the speculative investments, the crypto winter will turn into a crypto ice age.

Back in school we had something in physics about "expansion" and we used to say that "the hole expands too" (basically the principle behind putting a jar of olives in warm water then opening the lid easily).

My point is that when it comes to bitcoin adoption there are different categories of people adopting bitcoin eg. true bitcoins looking for financial sovereignty and gamblers looking for quick profit. When adoption grows all categories grow not just one. And the "true bitcoiners" are the silent type while the gamblers are the most loud so when their numbers grow and see see the internet filled with their cries about price rise and falls it may look like everyone has become a profit hungry gambler.

So even if we see CEXs are growing in popularity and collapse like FTX, that doesn't necessarily mean anything has changed about bitcoin or bitcoiners.

I've been thinking about this a lot recently mostly because this last week I saw someone literary put a hit out on some people with their full address and information for 5 bitcoin. All on Twitter!

So if laws are bad, regulations are bad, etc. then what is the solution to things like this? How are we supposed to deal with criminals, terrorists, money launderers, etc. who are abusing the same privacy that we so much crave for their own illicit activities?

The issue is not to blame or try to direct individual thoughts to the collective in what we believe to be the right thing to do, Bitcoin has the potential to be a good alternative but the process to become independent in that it becomes essential is not easy.

That collective subsists in its mistakes and successes, the same ones that have existed for more than 12 years, during which time trust has been the bulwark of Bitcoin, so that all the bullshit around Bitcoin that exists doesn't really matter, what matters it is the individual ability to decide where to put our ideas, so if bitcoin is in that decision it is enough.

I believe "boycott" is too much of a demand. Centralized exchanges bring more efficiency to the market, and therefore a faster price discovery for Bitcoin. It's simply the truth. BUT we should not move far away from the path of encouraging the use of decentralized networks like BISQ, and asking for the return of face-to-face in LocalBitcoin-like services, or encourage it to be used more in BISQ. I believe we should develop standard safety guidelines for face-to-face trading.

Aren't a lot of Bitcoiners advocating for this for years and years already? Unfortunately, the fact is, people will continue to use CEXs as long as they remain a lot more convenient than using peer-to-peer no-KYC exchanges. It'll always be difficult to change people's minds through ideology — it'll need to be through better UX.

They simply cannot leave the convenience they perceive they receive by having their coins at exchanges, and if anything this is going to get worse, new generations are used to have everything easily accessible to them and anything that is slightly more difficult is simply disregarded as too complex, so when given the choice between using an exchange and keeping their coins in self-custody the majority will choose the former over the latter.

Satoshi Nakamoto designed Bitcoin as a peer-to-peer electronic cash and it does not need a third-party centralized service to handle trades. I quoted the Bitcoin White paper because people sounds like completely forgot about original idea and use case of Bitcoin.


If centralized exchanges collapse all (which I don't believe they will), Bitcoin will still be fine. Because Bitcoin is not CEX, Bitcoin is not DEX, Bitcoin is not altcoin or cryptocurrency. People want to assimilate Bitcoin and cryptocurrency but as a point of fact, they are not the same, but very different.

After Terra, Celcius, Voyager, Three Arrows Capital, FTX collapses, people are very fearful about CEX and they withdrawn a lot of bitcoins from CEX but they will deposit their bitcoins back in future. They want CEX and forget the advice "Not your keys, not your coins"

Since November, people withdrawn a lot from centralized exchanges and Daily Exchange Net Flows are very negative.
https://www.theblock.co/data/on-chain-metrics/flows/daily-net-exchange-flows

Will it be okay if you won't complain? So it won't be hypocrisy and do the right damn thing? Stay away entirely and use the decentralized system that is already the solution to avoid CEX.

I agree that most Bitcoiners are in it for the money since CEXs make it easier to turn your crypto into cash than other methods that avoid intermediaries.

What makes it hard to be entirely true for P2P is the trust between people because it's hard to do. It's just really hard to get to do the alternative.

It shows that you are still in the system if you do that hypocrisy.

It feels sad to admit that I am largely guilty of this. Although I am not keeping funds in any CEX today, nor do I have any CEX account right now, I admit that I have used a number of them in the past. I have learned my lessons already. And while I also do not use centralized sites that offer loans, liquidity, annual ROI, etc, I can't seem to strongly convince friends not to use any of them.

But I am proud to say that I do not worship anybody in the crypto industry. I always admire those who came before us, before any altcoin was born, before the birth of a crypto industry, Satoshi and a few more, but not one right now. I know that these crypto businessmen today like Sam and CZ don't really value Bitcoin as much as the money they could get.

people are boycotting CEX
(though not really much in grand scheme of things with under 0.01% a day*)

i looked at a few of the "bitcoin richlist" addresses of exchanges
looking at coin holdings since january

the top 3 categories
january 2022
[100,000 - 1,000,000)   793,314 BTC
[10,000 - 100,000)   2,262,241 BTC  
[1,000 - 10,000)   4,630,567 BTC  

december 2nd
[100,000 - 1,000,000)   672,354 BTC
[10,000 - 100,000)   2,072,651 BTC
[1,000 - 10,000)   5,177,623 BTC

december 18th
[100,000 - 1,000,000]   684,123 BTC
[10,000 - 100,000)   2,291,459 BTC
[1,000 - 10,000)   4,601,707 BTC

december 20th
[100,000 - 1,000,000)   670,307 BTC
[10,000 - 100,000)   2,303,302 BTC
[1,000 - 10,000)   4,593,773 BTC



TOTALTS
Jan:  7922628
dec 2nd: 7686122  (average 770 a day removed(jan-dec day avg))
dec 18th: 7577289 (average 6800 a day removed(dec day avg))
dec 20th: 7567382 (35 hours since 18th data grab)

9907 coins in 35 hours (average 6793 a day removed(dec day avg))

since november instead of a net migration output of under 800 coins a day. its now over 6700coins a day leaving exchange hoards

so some people are listening.

albeit
of 7.5m coins in top addresses its only *0.087% of coins moving out
compared to the lower 0.00972% in spring/summer

(disclaimer: using bitcoin richlists is not accurate method, but better than some. it shows a trend of more coins leaving large holder custodians than earlier this year)

Bitcoiners dont kill bitcoin, they are killing their own pockets. Bitcoin will survive anyways. It survived the largest exchange shutdown i.e. Mtgox in the past, and the ftx meltdown also had not much effect, (since it recovered back to 18k+$ twice but the american markets and fed's tightning policy isnt helping otherwise we would have pumped too far by now already).
Cexes are still having a lot higher volume compared to dexes. Average ppl wont leave cexes since they are just used to it (as they are with other social media platforms logging in with email and password). They think taking care of own private keys is more tough work than remembering a small password of the cex they are trading on.

Alert! Breaking news on LeGaulois TV: Bitcoiners kill Bitcoin, and governments are happy

You complain about banks, traditional finance and its capitalism, but you make the same mistakes with the Bitcoin industry. It's time to stop the hypocrisy.

Companies are not in Bitcoin for its ideology but because there is a business to be done on Bitcoin's ass. Sometimes, they apply the same system as Bill Gates by creating foundations and pretending that it's to help whatever. Some entertain you on Twitter, quit worshiping people like Binance's CEO, it's getting ridiculous.

How many scandals like FTX do you need? Satoshi can't be alive anymore, he must have had a heart attack when he saw what Bitcoin has become compared to the original idea.
whatever, Bitcoin is far to be what it was years ago when I started to use it. And it will stay like this: very few true bitcoiners, and bitcoiners only here for the money.

Many of you have been telling people here how laws are a good thing because they help the adoption of Bitcoin, or it helps companies to have a business with a framework.
Many of you comment on the FTX scandal, or repeat here and there how CEXs are so bad to use, but your previous comments clearly show that you use CEXs too. Are you trolling us?

People should start to boycot CEXs.
I know you all want to buy your shitcoins but fuck that! Look at coinmarketcap, it will become a dictionnary. 99.9% of the altcoins are stupid stuff to brainwash you.

Don't say there aren't solution to avoid the CEXs, generally it's because you're too lazy to look around. It will ecome a place with a few big companies influencing the whole industry. Oh my bad... it's already the situation...

I remember a conference in wich the lady said:
"In your life, if you don't have an answer to a question, follow the money"
Believe me it works with so many things IRL, especially when it's not related to money. One of the best advice I got in my life.

I trully see 2 mentalities with Bitcoin and it's sad when we know what it was supposed to be.

What about the governments so?
Well, we know, they can't really kill Bitcoin etc, and they know it too! What a better solution than using the CEXs and others. And that's what they're doing. Using the trojan method. Laws, taxes, international regulation, ecology ...

Are you blind?