Bitcoin's Success Leading to Doom? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Labumi

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Quote from: Vaccinus on March 05, 2017, 11:39:17 AM

yeah the limit tot he block is really hurting bitcoin on the long run, do you think that average people will pay almost $1 to send $10 to their friend no way lol, there will be a day when no one will use bitcoin anymore, and just hoarding because the fee will be too expensive, how core and miners think this is good, what they are waiting to reach their consensus?

Indeed things that can ruin the use and also enthusiasts bitcoin is a limitation of the block. So if indeed restrictions block has exceeded the normal limit, then there must be a way out for these things so that the triumph of bitcoin not only survive in a few years. But I saw that if the costs that must be issued for every transaction over $1 (per transaction). then I have confidence there will be some people who start thinking to use bitcoin if it needs it. Because the cost of $1 is a pretty big thing, if they just want to send a $10. So, wisely using bitcoin in order for growth and also data if it exceeds the limits of

S_D

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https://medium.com/@spair/the-bitcoin-fee-market-4df1857d12b7#.9h4fc04nr

Lauda

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Quote from: squatz1 on March 05, 2017, 06:32:56 PM

It's something that people do in order to help the cause of bitcoin but at this point the entire ledger is around 100GB and they don't really see a reason to waste 1/10th of a TB on my pc in order to run a node.

The ~100GB would be by far more useful than what you're using the remaining 900GB on. However, you are just an example of human self-interest.

Quote from: squatz1 on March 05, 2017, 06:32:56 PM

I feel this is the biggest issue with bitcoin today and it must be addressed.

No. If you don't understand the benefits of running a node, you don't understand Bitcoin.

Quote from: cellard on March 05, 2017, 07:19:50 PM

If nodes become centralized run by specialist bitcoin will be dead, so its better to leave the blocksize small and have virtual gold that is expensive and slow to move rather than a centralized digital token which is valueless.

Bitcoin isn't slow to move though. 10 minutes on average if you pay the required fee.

Quote from: cellard on March 05, 2017, 07:19:50 PM

We can always have segwit + LN if stupid Jihan wants of course.

Maybe one day.

Quote from: Hazir on March 05, 2017, 07:42:11 PM

1. Moore's law reduces storage costs. Blockchain size is now 113GB. By the time it will be terabytes, terabytes won't be expensive at all.

Moore's law is not a law, it is a bullshit prediction. Moore's law also has nothing to do with storage, what you're talking about Kryder's law which already turned out to be a bullshit projection.

Quote from: Hazir on March 05, 2017, 07:42:11 PM

2. Maintaining a node is far, far less expensive that run any forum of banking database and it will forever be that way.

Disagreed.

Quote from: Hazir on March 05, 2017, 07:42:11 PM

3. Vast majority of users don't need to run a full node. We have SPV wallets easily accessible for anyone.

Just because you can use SPV, that doesn't mean that you should be using it.

S_D

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Quote from: Morbid on March 05, 2017, 02:16:05 PM

Im sorry, but really getting tired here of doom threads indirectly promoting other forks..

Not sure if I understand this statement. I have put forth a valid argument here, believe me dude m on community's side and I don't trade bitcoins.. just HODL. I want this to succeed more.

Quote from: HaXX0R1337 on March 05, 2017, 03:33:56 PM

The said things might be true and it is possible it could happen and what if Satoshi envisioned all these .Let me explain he does hold a lot of coins in his arsenal and he never touched a lot of it and when a time comes he has to invest to maintain a node he might re appear again and he will make an announcement that he will be using those coins for maintaining it.

Nope, nothing to back that. I have read almost all post on this forum, I was worried about this but never really came to a plausible solution to this. (Not undermining his ability, he has indeed done great work in inventing blockchain.)

Quote from: Hazir on March 05, 2017, 07:42:11 PM

Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

the blockchain will get huge in size to the extent of mismanagement eventually. (We cannot maintain a ledger for centuries... or can we?)

If the size of the blockchain is your main concern then you are worrying to much.
1. Moore's law reduces storage costs. Blockchain size is now 113GB. By the time it will be terabytes, terabytes won't be expensive at all.
2. Maintaining a node is far, far less expensive that run any forum of banking database and it will forever be that way.
3. Vast majority of users don't need to run a full node. We have SPV wallets easily accessible for anyone.

I really wish and hope you are right.

Quote from: valta4065 on March 05, 2017, 08:43:21 PM

Agreed.

There is indeed a huge problem. BTC price and adoption can't just continue to rise.
Not with the current structure of btc network.
I already pay 50 cents fee for every transaction, I'm not going to pay 2 fuckng dollars for that ><

+1

Quote from: n0ne on March 05, 2017, 09:50:45 PM

Block size issue is the main cause. This can be sought out if existing core,segwit come to a common decision to move forward. Right now blockchain based firm blockchain.info and coinbase were the major support for core. Big blocklists prioritize transaction volume and to avoid full node which affects the transaction slowdown. Small blocklists prioritize decentralization and need for a fee which makes bitcoin with consensus similar to digital gold only for transaction.

I see all solutions presented against increasing blockchain size including segwit right now will only increase technical debt to bitcoin.

Great discussion here, I felt i'll be trolled to start this topic. But seems this is getting productive.

S_D

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Quote from: European Central Bank on March 05, 2017, 10:12:43 AM

nodes already cost. they'll eat your entire data allowance and then some if you allow it.
and of course people will maintain a ledger if it has value.
I think it'll come to a crunch where hobbyists can't do it any more. question is whether there are richer hobbyists to continue or whether commercial entities will actively try to maintain decentralisation.
I think we'll be offered an illusion of it like Chinese mining but it would take a crisis to properly reassert it.

Very valid point! Antpool has already started towards pushing it.

Quote from: bravehearth0319 on March 05, 2017, 11:11:32 AM

Yes that's true, nodes function is acting like a boss this is just an illustration example. And I don't think that bitcoin success leading to doom. As long as we will keep and protect the ledger or maintain due to the value it has the decentralization will continue to be apply.

Exactly.. only as long as we keep and protect it the question is how long until we stop it. I fear we will be hit by this before we know.

Quote from: dothebeats on March 05, 2017, 11:19:29 AM

Afaik it's not only hobbyists who maintain and run nodes to help the network. Miners profit very largely from bitcoins so they can create their own nodes if they want to continue earning $$$. Since miners are already running machines that consumes a lot of power 24/7/365, why won't they create their own nodes to aid there mining operations too, right? It's just a small fraction of $$$ compared to what they are earning anyways.

I sense paradox here. If this happens it leads to centralization of power which in turn will devalue bitcoin.

Quote from: Hydrogen on March 05, 2017, 11:25:05 AM

I wonder sometimes if Moore's Law dictates transistors, network bandwidth and file space storage could grow at a faster rate than the blockchain.
If not maybe we'll have people in the future calling for optimization or compression of the blockchain similar to how people are calling for different block sizes now.
Hardware upgrades over time could solve some of these concerns.

I feel blockchains growth curve is steeper than Moore's curve. Hardware upgrade will only delay fate.

Quote from: Lauda on March 05, 2017, 02:06:37 PM

False exaggeration due to lack of understanding.

Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

Soon there will be a cost to run node & nodes aren't being rewarded.

There is already a cost to run a node and the reward for running nodes are self incentivized, privacy and security. Roll Eyes

The cost seem to be too high to me.

Quote from: Lauda on March 05, 2017, 02:06:37 PM

Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

Huge Blockchain > Stressed Nodes > Lack of motivation to run node > Fewer Nodes > Centralization of voting power > Purpose defeated

More users -> More wealthy users -> More smarter users who want to reap those benefits.

I hope this happens, but I can see it can't go forever. [Benefit < Cost]

Quote from: Lauda on March 05, 2017, 02:06:37 PM

Quote from: nikona on March 05, 2017, 02:03:21 PM

-snip-
I think scaling would be a problem for a month or two. Some decision has to be taken by then and I'm sure it will all be alright. Just hang in tight.

You don't know how Bitcoin works, please stop posting rubbish.

+1

n0ne

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Block size issue is the main cause. This can be sought out if existing core,segwit come to a common decision to move forward. Right now blockchain based firm blockchain.info and coinbase were the major support for core. Big blocklists prioritize transaction volume and to avoid full node which affects the transaction slowdown. Small blocklists prioritize decentralization and need for a fee which makes bitcoin with consensus similar to digital gold only for transaction.

valta4065

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Agreed.

There is indeed a huge problem. BTC price and adoption can't just continue to rise.
Not with the current structure of btc network.
I already pay 50cents fee for every transaction, I'm not going to pay 2 fuckng dollars for that ><

Hazir

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Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

the blockchain will get huge in size to the extent of mismanagement eventually. (We cannot maintain a ledger for centuries... or can we?)

If the size of the blockchain is your main concern then you are worrying to much.

1. Moore's law reduces storage costs. Blockchain size is now 113GB. By the time it will be terabytes, terabytes won't be expensive at all.
2. Maintaining a node is far, far less expensive that run any forum of banking database and it will forever be that way.
3. Vast majority of users don't need to run a full node. We have SPV wallets easily accessible for anyone.

cellard

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Quote from: European Central Bank on March 05, 2017, 10:12:43 AM

nodes already cost. they'll eat your entire data allowance and then some if you allow it.

and of course people will maintain a ledger if it has value.

I think it'll come to a crunch where hobbyists can't do it any more. question is whether there are richer hobbyists to continue or whether commercial entities will actively try to maintain decentralisation.

I think we'll be offered an illusion of it like Chinese mining but it would take a crisis to properly reassert it.

If nodes become centralized run by specialist bitcoin will be dead, so its better to leave the blocksize small and have virtual gold that is expensive and slow to move rather than a centralized digital token which is valueless.

We can always have segwit + LN if stupid Jihan wants of course.

squatz1

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There is going to be a reason in order for people to run nodes if people would really like to see the mass adoption of bitcoin in the future. It's something that people do in order to help the cause of bitcoin but at this point the entire ledger is around 100GB and they don't really see a reason to waste 1/10th of a TB on my pc in order to run a node.

Some people, may want to do it out of the goodwill of their hearts, but most are going to want some sort of incentive in order to run a node so they feel like they'r at least getting something out of it in exchange for their hardware.

I feel this is the biggest issue with bitcoin today and it must be addressed.

york780

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bitcoin succes leading to doom for banks and other safe heavens.

Lauda

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Quote from: Morbid on March 05, 2017, 02:16:05 PM

im sorry, but really getting tired here of doom threads indirectly promoting other forks..

Ironically, the 'other forks' solve nothing. Neither do the shitcoins that are being promoted for pumping and dumping. In fact, a lot of them have worse scalability issues.

Quote from: jak3 on March 05, 2017, 02:27:43 PM

i fully agree that bitcoin is moving towards the slow death and i see no way to solve this blockchain problem
-snip-

There is no problem. If you understood Bitcoin, you'd run a node yourself.

Quote from: HaXX0R1337 on March 05, 2017, 03:33:56 PM

The said things might be true and it is possible it could happen and what if Satoshi envisioned all these .Let me explain he does hold a lot of coins in his arsenal and he never touched a lot of it and when a time comes he has to invest to maintain a node he might re appear again and he will make an announcement that he will be using those coins for maintaining it.

Stop making up bullshit.

HaXX0R1337

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The said things might be true and it is possible it could happen and what if Satoshi envisioned all these .Let me explain he does hold a lot of coins in his arsenal and he never touched a lot of it and when a time comes he has to invest to maintain a node he might re appear again and he will make an announcement that he will be using those coins for maintaining it.

jak3

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i fully agree that bitcoin is moving towards the slow death and i see no way to solve this blockchain problem except of any miracle in midway or if one one pops out with a brand new mining strategy and techniques which can extend its lifetime a bit or two, after all if it dies i have seen a great time observing what can humans do if they get a perfect situations and a good technology

Morbid

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im sorry, but really getting tired here of doom threads indirectly promoting other forks..

Lauda

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Terminated.

False exaggeration due to lack of understanding.

Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

Soon there will be a cost to run node & nodes aren't being rewarded.

There is already a cost to run a node and the reward for running nodes are self incentivized, privacy and security. Roll Eyes

Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

Huge Blockchain > Stressed Nodes > Lack of motivation to run node > Fewer Nodes > Centralization of voting power > Purpose defeated

More users -> More wealthy users -> More smarter users who want to reap those benefits.

Quote from: nikona on March 05, 2017, 02:03:21 PM

-snip-
I think scaling would be a problem for a month or two. Some decision has to be taken by then and I'm sure it will all be alright. Just hang in tight.

You don't know how Bitcoin works, please stop posting rubbish.

nikona

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Quote from: Kprawn on March 05, 2017, 01:46:27 PM

A lot of businesses run nodes, because their business is run on top of Bitcoin, so it makes sense to support the network. In some countries that

might be deducted from tax as a business expense. Wink

How many other businesses work in their capital invested into IT into their tax returns. Grin

The scaling problems is only temporary and will not go on forever... be patient. Cheesy

I agree, as long as it is profitable or some company is dependent or related to BTC, they will try their best to support the network because if it fails, they will lose money. I think scaling would be a problem for a month or two. Some decision has to be taken by then and I'm sure it will all be alright. Just hang in tight.

Kprawn

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A lot of businesses run nodes, because their business is run on top of Bitcoin, so it makes sense to support the network. In some countries that

might be deducted from tax as a business expense. Wink

How many other businesses work in their capital invested into IT into their tax returns. Grin

The scaling problems is only temporary and will not go on forever... be patient. Cheesy

Hydrogen

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Quote from: European Central Bank on March 05, 2017, 11:32:24 AM

transistors and space are easy. bandwidth is out of the user's hands. that depends on your local telecom company deciding to spend a few million upgrading.

In the united states, there is something called a "telecommunications tax" which in theory, is spent towards maintaining and upgrading internet infrastructure.

Past politicians have likely spent telecom taxes on wars, submarine aircraft carriers or something other than its intended purpose.

Perhaps Donald Trump can get things back on track & have those taxes spent on upgrading & maintaining american internet.

Which in turn, could put pressure on foreign countries to follow suit and do the same.

Eventually everything could be fiber and FIOS.

At the moment asian countries have the best average internet speeds but maybe there's no reason the rest of the world won't catch up to them?

Which could in turn make bitcoin operations more manageable and viable?

Vaccinus

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yeah the limit tot he block is really hurting bitcoin on the long run, do you think that average people will pay almost $1 to send $10 to their friend no way lol, there will be a day when no one will use bitcoin anymore, and just hoarding because the fee will be too expensive, how core and miners think this is good, what they are waiting to reach their consensus?

European Central Bank

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Quote from: Hydrogen on March 05, 2017, 11:25:05 AM

I wonder sometimes if Moore's Law dictates transistors, network bandwidth and file space storage could grow at a faster rate than the blockchain.

transistors and space are easy. bandwidth is out of the user's hands. that depends on your local telecom company deciding to spend a few million upgrading.

Hydrogen

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Quote from: S_D on March 05, 2017, 08:51:34 AM

From what I understand IMO bitcoin will fail because it will get widely accepted and then no matter what fork is made, the blockchain will get huge in size to the extent of mismanagement eventually. (We cannot maintain a ledger for centuries... or can we?)

I wonder sometimes if Moore's Law dictates transistors, network bandwidth and file space storage could grow at a faster rate than the blockchain.

If not maybe we'll have people in the future calling for optimization or compression of the blockchain similar to how people are calling for different block sizes now.

Hardware upgrades over time could solve some of these concerns.

dothebeats

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Quote from: European Central Bank on March 05, 2017, 10:12:43 AM

nodes already cost. they'll eat your entire data allowance and then some if you allow it.

and of course people will maintain a ledger if it has value.

I think it'll come to a crunch where hobbyists can't do it any more. question is whether there are richer hobbyists to continue or whether commercial entities will actively try to maintain decentralisation.

I think we'll be offered an illusion of it like Chinese mining but it would take a crisis to properly reassert it.

Afaik it's not only hobbyists who maintain and run nodes to help the network. Miners profit very largely from bitcoins so they can create their own nodes if they want to continue earning $$$. Since miners are already running machines that consumes a lot of power 24/7/365, why won't they create their own nodes to aid there mining operations too, right? It's just a small fraction of $$$ compared to what they are earning anyways.

bravehearth0319

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Quote from: European Central Bank on March 05, 2017, 10:12:43 AM

nodes already cost. they'll eat your entire data allowance and then some if you allow it.

and of course people will maintain a ledger if it has value.

I think it'll come to a crunch where hobbyists can't do it any more. question is whether there are richer hobbyists to continue or whether commercial entities will actively try to maintain decentralisation.

I think we'll be offered an illusion of it like Chinese mining but it would take a crisis to properly reassert it.

Yes that's true, nodes function is acting like a boss this is just an illustration example. And I don't think that bitcoin success leading to doom. As long as we will keep and protect the ledger or maintain due to the value it has the decentralization will continue to be apply.

European Central Bank

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nodes already cost. they'll eat your entire data allowance and then some if you allow it.

and of course people will maintain a ledger if it has value.

I think it'll come to a crunch where hobbyists can't do it any more. question is whether there are richer hobbyists to continue or whether commercial entities will actively try to maintain decentralisation.

I think we'll be offered an illusion of it like Chinese mining but it would take a crisis to properly reassert it.

S_D

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Bitcoin's Success Leading to Doom?

So there's huge discussion still in progress about the scalability of Bitcoin and how it could be managed.

From what I understand IMO bitcoin will fail because it will get widely accepted and then no matter what fork is made, the blockchain will get huge in size to the extent of mismanagement eventually. (We cannot maintain a ledger for centuries... or can we?)

Soon there will be a cost to run node & nodes aren't being rewarded enough.

Huge Blockchain -> Stressed Nodes -> Lack of motivation to run node -> Fewer Nodes -> Centralization of voting power -> Purpose defeated

I would like to hear what other member have to say in this context.

P.S:
The curve in this chart will only keep getting steeper:
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=all

Update:
Some valid arguments made by members here:

Moore's law reduces costs. It will get cheaper to manage this ecosystem.
Maintaining a node is far less expensive but will probably get costly or cheaper (referring the clash with Moore's law here)
Many aren't aware of how serious this issue is!
https://medium.com/@spair/the-bitcoin-fee-market-4df1857d12b7#.9h4fc04nr

^{Disclaimer: This topic is opinion driven we are only trying to get close to a good speculation.}

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