Bitfinex is dropping their US customers

countryfree

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Quote from: sylance on October 22, 2017, 09:34:30 PM

Quote from: countryfree on October 22, 2017, 08:05:22 AM

I'm not storing my coins. All are on orders, or on loans, and I've never had any trouble with any exchange so far. On Poloniex, when I look at my trade history, it's more than 100 pages, without any trouble. Well, I remember their server went down a few times, but I know those things happen. I've also bought many cars at copart.com which many, many people say it's dodgy, but most of the time, everything has been fine for me. There's risk in every business, and I guess you shall not be afraid of some people complaining on the web. You just need to test a service for a while a first. My first time at an exchange, I go with $100. I'm doing a few trades, get my coins back, and if everything went fine, I invest some more. Note also that I'm using 3 exchanges (well, Bitstamp also), I don't put all my eggs in the same basket...

I've had nothing but good experiences on Poloniex, and I also realize that no service is perfect so it's not the (now aging) outages that concern me. What concerns me about Poloniex is their total lack of communication around the outages. If they would have simply recognized the outage, communicate status updates, and even go further to provide updates on upgrading their support group... then I'd feel more comfortable keeping my coin there. There's also the fact that after 5-months I've yet to have my account verified; that tells me they either don't care or running on the bare minimum staff.

You may stay forever with an unverified account. I agree the daily withdrawal limit can be a problem, but it isn't if you're a long term investor.

@richardsNY
I don't think about the Bitfinex hack anymore. It happened more than a year ago.

sylance

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Quote from: countryfree on October 22, 2017, 08:05:22 AM

I'm not storing my coins. All are on orders, or on loans, and I've never had any trouble with any exchange so far. On Poloniex, when I look at my trade history, it's more than 100 pages, without any trouble. Well, I remember their server went down a few times, but I know those things happen. I've also bought many cars at copart.com which many, many people say it's dodgy, but most of the time, everything has been fine for me. There's risk in every business, and I guess you shall not be afraid of some people complaining on the web. You just need to test a service for a while a first. My first time at an exchange, I go with $100. I'm doing a few trades, get my coins back, and if everything went fine, I invest some more. Note also that I'm using 3 exchanges (well, Bitstamp also), I don't put all my eggs in the same basket...

I've had nothing but good experiences on Poloniex, and I also realize that no service is perfect so it's not the (now aging) outages that concern me. What concerns me about Poloniex is their total lack of communication around the outages. If they would have simply recognized the outage, communicate status updates, and even go further to provide updates on upgrading their support group... then I'd feel more comfortable keeping my coin there. There's also the fact that after 5-months I've yet to have my account verified; that tells me they either don't care or running on the bare minimum staff.

richardsNY

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Quote from: countryfree on October 22, 2017, 08:05:22 AM

I'm not storing my coins. All are on orders, or on loans, and I've never had any trouble with any exchange so far. On Poloniex, when I look at my trade history, it's more than 100 pages, without any trouble. Well, I remember their server went down a few times, but I know those things happen.

It's different per person. I see loads of complaints about Bittrex come through in the last weeks, all from people claiming that Bittrex is a thief, etc. I use Bittrex too, and never have I encountered even 1 single issue. The only thing that I don't like about Bittrex is that they don't allow you to create a new deposit address manually, but that's something you have to accept when making use of them. It's impossible to please everyone as exchange/service. Other than that, I do agree with alyssa85, Bitfinex is an exchange that can't be trusted anymore after their hack drama -- from there I find it very difficult to swallow that people are still making use of such an exchange.

countryfree

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Quote from: warningsigns on October 21, 2017, 06:25:08 PM

Quote from: countryfree on October 21, 2017, 06:09:33 PM

Quote from: alyssa85 on October 20, 2017, 07:17:25 PM

People are crapping on the Americans - but the thing is Bitfinex is dodgy. Their mysterious hack for example. It's no wonder the American regulators started asking questions.

Wasn't aware of that. I thought Bitfinex was doing that from its own initiative. Do you have any link to this request from American regulators? I don't see Bitfinex as dodgy. No more than Poloniex or Kraken (I have coins at all 3).

All three seem to be poorly mismanaged exchanges. The common denominator is the countless complaints here and elsewhere on the world wide web about account access being denied or limited. I’m surprised you’re relaxed about keeping coins in these three exchanges. Storing coins in any exchange is too risky these days. Arbitrary and random account blockage are too scary for me to contemplate or experience. I don’t mind if they take their sweet time verifying an empty account but if they restrict access to coins stored on the account, that’s the painful bit. I would have sleepless nights worrying about those coins. Uncertainty is never a pleasant thing.

I'm not storing my coins. All are on orders, or on loans, and I've never had any trouble with any exchange so far. On Poloniex, when I look at my trade history, it's more than 100 pages, without any trouble. Well, I remember their server went down a few times, but I know those things happen. I've also bought many cars at copart.com which many, many people say it's dodgy, but most of the time, everything has been fine for me. There's risk in every business, and I guess you shall not be afraid of some people complaining on the web. You just need to test a service for a while a first. My first time at an exchange, I go with $100. I'm doing a few trades, get my coins back, and if everything went fine, I invest some more. Note also that I'm using 3 exchanges (well, Bitstamp also), I don't put all my eggs in the same basket...

RGBKey

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Quote from: countryfree on October 21, 2017, 06:09:33 PM

Quote from: alyssa85 on October 20, 2017, 07:17:25 PM

People are crapping on the Americans - but the thing is Bitfinex is dodgy. Their mysterious hack for example. It's no wonder the American regulators started asking questions.

Wasn't aware of that. I thought Bitfinex was doing that from its own initiative. Do you have any link to this request from American regulators? I don't see Bitfinex as dodgy. No more than Poloniex or Kraken (I have coins at all 3).

Poloniex is pretty dodgy. I've had deposits take waayyyyy too long to get in there, and withdraws that sometimes seem to take days for no reason. I've known people who had to contact support just to get their own coins released from their system when they were mysteriously locked up. I've stayed far away from them since.

warningsigns

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Quote from: countryfree on October 21, 2017, 06:09:33 PM

Quote from: alyssa85 on October 20, 2017, 07:17:25 PM

People are crapping on the Americans - but the thing is Bitfinex is dodgy. Their mysterious hack for example. It's no wonder the American regulators started asking questions.

Wasn't aware of that. I thought Bitfinex was doing that from its own initiative. Do you have any link to this request from American regulators? I don't see Bitfinex as dodgy. No more than Poloniex or Kraken (I have coins at all 3).

All three seem to be poorly mismanaged exchanges. The common denominator is the countless complaints here and elsewhere on the world wide web about account access being denied or limited. I’m surprised you’re relaxed about keeping coins in these three exchanges. Storing coins in any exchange is too risky these days. Arbitrary and random account blockage are too scary for me to contemplate or experience. I don’t mind if they take their sweet time verifying an empty account but if they restrict access to coins stored on the account, that’s the painful bit. I would have sleepless nights worrying about those coins. Uncertainty is never a pleasant thing.

countryfree

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Quote from: alyssa85 on October 20, 2017, 07:17:25 PM

People are crapping on the Americans - but the thing is Bitfinex is dodgy. Their mysterious hack for example. It's no wonder the American regulators started asking questions.

Wasn't aware of that. I thought Bitfinex was doing that from its own initiative. Do you have any link to this request from American regulators? I don't see Bitfinex as dodgy. No more than Poloniex or Kraken (I have coins at all 3).

alyssa85

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People are crapping on the Americans - but the thing is Bitfinex is dodgy. Their mysterious hack for example. It's no wonder the American regulators started asking questions.

American traders can use GDAX or Gemini, while Bitfinex will attract the dodgier end of the spectrum. I'd be very surprised if their exchange was even operating in a few years time.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: countryfree on October 20, 2017, 05:33:15 PM

There were also many Americans with a Swiss or Singaporean bank account who weren't cheating on their taxes. But nowadays, it's next to impossible to open a bank account in those countries if you're holding an American passport. Well, unless you have an introducer, and some very legit fully explainable import-export business. Bitfinex is only a small new element. Other exchanges, QuadrigaCX or Gatecoin also, block American users. I'm sorry if you're American, but most banks and exchanges just want to avoid trouble.

This is the nature of regulation. Those residing in other countries may not be experiencing it yet, but they will face similar restrictions, too, once governments begin passing regulations governing cryptocurrency exchanges. At the rate things are happening, we can expect this to happen in the major developed countries within the next couple years.

The reason this happens is that licensing and overall compliance costs are prohibitive for small companies and startups. As Bitcoin goes mainstream, there is much more potential venture capital backing these companies (like Coinbase, Gemini) to justify compliance.

That's the trade-off for these companies. They have much higher compliance costs, but they are competing for a larger share of a much larger pie as cryptocurrency continues to go mainstream.

countryfree

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Quote from: TravelMug on October 19, 2017, 06:09:08 PM

Quote from: countryfree on October 19, 2017, 04:36:34 PM

Good. I'm very happy with this decision. They're going the same way as Swiss banks. US customers bring too many problems. Most banks in most countries, and most financial institutions everywhere in the world, are just telling Americans to stay at home.
Sorry sir, we don't want to do business with you.
That's what you hear when you're an American abroad nowadays. If Trump would kill FATCA and the International taxation of US citizens instead of wrecking the deal with Iran, it could change.

You saying that it has a political motivation behind here not wanting US citizens because they bring more harm than good?

But If I'm a US citizen, I will take this news as another slap on the face because they will lose a lot of opportunity to do trading. The only recourse of action is to really take it somewhere else. Maybe Bitfinex is really afraid that they will be the next BTC-E, being targeted by US authorities so they make this moved to avoid problems. But I don't think this is fair to all US citizens who are trading legally and not doing any money laundering or any illegal acts.

There were also many Americans with a Swiss or Singaporean bank account who weren't cheating on their taxes. But nowadays, it's next to impossible to open a bank account in those countries if you're holding an American passport. Well, unless you have an introducer, and some very legit fully explainable import-export business. Bitfinex is only a small new element. Other exchanges, QuadrigaCX or Gatecoin also, block American users. I'm sorry if you're American, but most banks and exchanges just want to avoid trouble.

TravelMug

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Quote from: countryfree on October 19, 2017, 04:36:34 PM

Good. I'm very happy with this decision. They're going the same way as Swiss banks. US customers bring too many problems. Most banks in most countries, and most financial institutions everywhere in the world, are just telling Americans to stay at home.
Sorry sir, we don't want to do business with you.
That's what you hear when you're an American abroad nowadays. If Trump would kill FATCA and the International taxation of US citizens instead of wrecking the deal with Iran, it could change.

You saying that it has a political motivation behind here not wanting US citizens because they bring more harm than good?

But If I'm a US citizen, I will take this news as another slap on the face because they will lose a lot of opportunity to do trading. The only recourse of action is to really take it somewhere else. Maybe Bitfinex is really afraid that they will be the next BTC-E, being targeted by US authorities so they make this moved to avoid problems. But I don't think this is fair to all US citizens who are trading legally and not doing any money laundering or any illegal acts.

illyiller

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Quote from: sylance on October 17, 2017, 10:52:13 AM

Well, it's official. I'm disappointed but at least I know the plan now. We have until November 9th to remove all coins from Bitfinex; afterwards all trading, deposits, and withdrawals will be blocked.

It's interesting that they actually say that withdrawals will be blocked. Usually, sites include a note about recovering funds after the deadline has passed. I expected them to say automatic withdrawals would be blocked, or something similar.

Quote from: countryfree on October 19, 2017, 04:36:34 PM

Good. I'm very happy with this decision. They're going the same way as Swiss banks. US customers bring too many problems. Most banks in most countries, and most financial institutions everywhere in the world, are just telling Americans to stay at home.
Sorry sir, we don't want to do business with you.
That's what you hear when you're an American abroad nowadays. If Trump would kill FATCA and the International taxation of US citizens instead of wrecking the deal with Iran, it could change.

That's definitely not what you hear when you're an American abroad nowadays. Maybe from a few cryptocurrency brokers/exchanges, like Bitfinex, Bitmex, Wex.nz. But in general, no. And even in the Bitcoin space, most services/exchanges welcome American business even given the legal risks of doing so because it is such a massive market. I think that Bitfinex was lying when they said that Americans represent a small portion of their business. The truth is that they are terrified that they will be taken down like BTC-e was. Shutting down business for Americans now won't prevent that.

countryfree

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Good. I'm very happy with this decision. They're going the same way as Swiss banks. US customers bring too many problems. Most banks in most countries, and most financial institutions everywhere in the world, are just telling Americans to stay at home.
Sorry sir, we don't want to do business with you.
That's what you hear when you're an American abroad nowadays. If Trump would kill FATCA and the International taxation of US citizens instead of wrecking the deal with Iran, it could change.

sylance

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Well, it's official. I'm disappointed but at least I know the plan now. We have until November 9th to remove all coins from Bitfinex; afterwards all trading, deposits, and withdrawals will be blocked.

https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/227

Quote

This message is further to our announcement of August 11, 2017, with respect to terminating our business with U.S. individual customers. As indicated in the announcement, we are terminating trading, deposits, and withdrawal functionality for U.S. individual customers by no later than November 9, 2017. U.S. customers are already barred from receiving financing from other users on Bitfinex’s peer-to-peer financing platform. This restriction will remain and, in addition, U.S. individual customers will no longer be able to provide financing on Bitfinex effective November 9, 2017.

All U.S. individual users must make arrangements to withdraw their Digital Tokens by November 9th.

U.S. individuals holding Recovery Right Tokens (RRTs), if any, which relate to the exchange of now-defunct BFX tokens to equity in iFinex Inc., may, starting on October 27, 2017, sell all of their RRTs on the exchange, if they so elect. This is an exception to the general terms of use for RRTs. U.S. individuals are not permitted to buy RRTs during this time period. All terms and conditions relating to the sale of any RRTs remain in full force and effect and are deemed to apply to the sale of any RRTs by U.S. individuals or otherwise. Any RRTs remaining in the hands of U.S. individual verified customers after the November 9th deadline may be sold through Bitfinex on an OTC basis through special arrangement with us.

olowshinenine

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Hi i use this platform for trading. Are they going to take my tokens if they have not been removed by November 9th?

Please let me know

alyssa85

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Quote from: ?? on ??

yea that's all I did, clicked that box and said I'm not a us resident - are they that stupid? finally transferred the rest of my IOTA out of there to binance - not many options for iota if you don't want hardware wallet (which I could never get working) .. it's unfortunate our government is so evil and bitfinex are cowards. bye bye bitfinex

It isn't about stupidity exactly, it's about plausible deniability. They can point to you actively claiming you arn't American and it's on you for fibbing.

sylance

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I wish they'd communicate more. I keep some coin on Bitfinex because I love the margin lending feature. Earning passive income is very attractive, but it's so strange they communicated their discontinuation of US support and then nothing for 2-months.

illinest

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Quote from: alyssa85 on August 13, 2017, 04:17:21 AM

Quote from: sylance on August 12, 2017, 05:40:28 PM

I have to say that as an American I'm getting increasingly frustrated with how our government is pushing back on crypto. I see other countries looking for ways to work with this new industry and all I see from our government is ways to regulate or flat out ban it. I'm going to head over to petition.whitehouse.gov and create a petition to back off of crypto. I know it wont do anything but we have to start somewhere.

In this particular instance, don't be upset, your govt may have saved you from a MtGox scenario. There have been a number of flags over bitfinex for some time - their mysterious hack last year, the high withdrawal fees etc.

Except they did so by making BTC-e insolvent and likely unable to relaunch to repay users. A lot of Bitfinex users were also BTC-e users (and lots of US residents on both exchanges). So, I'll continue to be upset, thank you very much. Wink

illyiller

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Quote from: btcney on August 13, 2017, 04:20:40 AM

They probably saw what happened with BTC-e and decided to bail out sooner rather than later.

Not sure why they would still offer unverified services for US citizens, though. Pretty sure the only things that will be discontinued from the next 90 days would be US citizens' ability to obtain a verified account, and deposit and withdraw from their site. They can still access Bitfinex without any issues, it's just that they can't deposit using USD, withdraw using USD, or trade specific tokens.

If they are going to shut down the US market then at least do it properly and block all incoming traffic.

Also, are previously verified accounts going to stay verified? Since they said that they are "no longer" accepting verifications.

They said "discontinuing services to our existing U.S. individual customers" so that means all US customers by my reading. And verification does no good anyway, since they have zero ability to get bank wires to customers. I wouldn't be surprised if that's helping to push the price up; the only way to get out of Bitfinex is to buy coins...

My reading of it: Effective immediately, no verification for US users. On August 16, no trading of ERC tokens for US users. It's unclear when US users (verified or not) will be barred from trading on their exchange, presumably within 90 days of the posting.

I thought they would have blocked US traffic following the CFTC decision and the security token distribution following the hack, but all they made US people do is click a box saying they didn't reside there. That might be all they do here; maybe unverified US users will just create new accounts and say they aren't US residents. Might not even need a VPN.

btcney

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Quote from: alyssa85 on August 11, 2017, 02:55:45 PM

https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/216

Quote

Service Changes for U.S. Customers

Bitfinex is making changes to the services we provide to U.S. individuals. These changes impact the verification process and trading of certain digital tokens for U.S. customers. Some changes are effective immediately, and others will be gradually implemented in the coming weeks.

Suspension of U.S. Individual Verification Requests

We regret to announce that, effective immediately, we will no longer be accepting verification requests for U.S. individuals.

We have for some time considered pulling away from the retail marketplace in the U.S., and now with a current backlog of verification requests and ongoing difficulties in providing USD deposit and withdrawals for U.S. individuals, we feel that the time has come to begin disengaging from U.S. retail customers.

Several factors have gone into this decision:

While we have been able to normalize banking for some corporate customers and individuals in certain jurisdictions, compliant banking solutions for U.S. individuals remain elusive. We have been slowly and selectively inviting users in particular jurisdictions who meet set criteria to start using banking channels that have come online. This process is ongoing.
A surprisingly small percentage of our revenues come from verified U.S. individual accounts while a dramatically outsized portion of our resources goes into servicing the needs of U.S. individuals, including support, legal and regulatory.
We anticipate the regulatory landscape to become even more challenging in the future.
Bitfinex is not based in the United States. Exchanges based in the U.S. are better positioned to properly service retail U.S. customers.

We are thankful to all of our loyal U.S. customers that have consistently traded with us but, unfortunately, we have an obligation to our whole customer base and to our shareholders to make rational resource allocation decisions.

Furthermore, over the next 90 days, we will be discontinuing services to our existing U.S. individual customers. We will be communicating further with affected users on timing and specifics. Our intention is to reduce disruption as much as possible for our U.S. customers.

We will continue to take advice and implement further changes as circumstances warrant.

Restrictions on U.S. Persons Trading Certain Digital Tokens

Pursuant to the recent report of investigation issued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Bitfinex is taking the proactive step of barring U.S. customers from trading certain digital tokens that may be deemed securities in the eyes of the SEC.

The restriction will generally apply to ERC20 tokens issued through "ICOs" and will go into effect at noon UTC on Wednesday, August 16, 2017. No trading of these tokens will be allowed for U.S. customers. At the time of this post, the tokens active on Bitfinex that will be subject to this restriction are EOS (EOS) and Santiment (SAN).

Once again, we regret any inconvenience this change in policy might create, but we believe this to be a prudent measure given the regulatory uncertainty surrounding such digital assets.

They probably saw what happened with BTC-e and decided to bail out sooner rather than later.

Not sure why they would still offer unverified services for US citizens, though. Pretty sure the only things that will be discontinued from the next 90 days would be US citizens' ability to obtain a verified account, and deposit and withdraw from their site. They can still access Bitfinex without any issues, it's just that they can't deposit using USD, withdraw using USD, or trade specific tokens.

If they are going to shut down the US market then at least do it properly and block all incoming traffic.

Also, are previously verified accounts going to stay verified? Since they said that they are "no longer" accepting verifications.

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Quote from: sylance on August 12, 2017, 05:40:28 PM

I have to say that as an American I'm getting increasingly frustrated with how our government is pushing back on crypto. I see other countries looking for ways to work with this new industry and all I see from our government is ways to regulate or flat out ban it. I'm going to head over to petition.whitehouse.gov and create a petition to back off of crypto. I know it wont do anything but we have to start somewhere.

In this particular instance, don't be upset, your govt may have saved you from a MtGox scenario. There have been a number of flags over bitfinex for some time - their mysterious hack last year, the high withdrawal fees etc.

Take your coins out and be glad you won't be using them again!

illinest

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Quote from: mk4 on August 12, 2017, 05:09:04 AM

Quote from: crazyivan on August 12, 2017, 02:12:02 AM

Well, I do see this as a bad think neither for US people not for the rest of us. If a service acts like that as is afraid of being taken down, this usually means they have something to hide or they re involved in some illegal shit. Why would I use that kind of service? Crypto s NOT about scamming people and doing market manipulation.

So I d say, fuck you Bitfinex. I m from Europe and your ban does not apply to me (yet) but you will not see a single satoshi from me.

I wouldn't jump into conclusions that fast. Don't forget that the US government can pull off random reasons just to shut down businesses, not to mention we're talking about cryptocurrencies here. Which they might see as competition or a threat to their fiat. Also, maybe they're gonna disallow US citizens because of the same reason why ICOs are not allowed in the US?

They are trying to saying that "compliance costs" of verifying US users and complying with AML/KYC laws is too great. The real cost that they avoided for years was registering as an MSB in all US states. After what's happened to BTC-e, they are scared, and this is the first move to cover their ass.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: sylance on August 12, 2017, 05:40:28 PM

I have to say that as an American I'm getting increasingly frustrated with how our government is pushing back on crypto. I see other countries looking for ways to work with this new industry and all I see from our government is ways to regulate or flat out ban it. I'm going to head over to petition.whitehouse.gov and create a petition to back off of crypto. I know it wont do anything but we have to start somewhere.

i don't think they are trying to ban it, but yes, they want to regulate it. and when the US wants to regulate something, it means punishing unregulated entities. i'm sure this is why bitstamp and coinbase started obtaining licensing and implementing harsh KYC measures starting years ago. they were smart enough to see this coming and are likely safe from this mess. i'd be worried about keeping funds on bitfinex after what's happened at btc-e (even if you weren't already worried given the hack last year).

sylance

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Quote from: leopard2 on August 12, 2017, 05:47:04 PM

This is because US government considers US citizens their property, it is called serfdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

They also think they own the planet.... Angry

Too many Americans are idiots so they cannot see this and vote for Ron Paul. Wink

Completely agree!!!! I don't think America was ready for Ron Paul, but I agree that his vision is where we need to go. This was the most depressing election every... I had to do a write in and wrote on Ran Paul.

leopard2

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This is because US government considers US citizens their property, it is called serfdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

They also think they own the planet.... Angry

Too many Americans are idiots so they cannot see this and vote for Ron Paul. Wink

sylance

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I have to say that as an American I'm getting increasingly frustrated with how our government is pushing back on crypto. I see other countries looking for ways to work with this new industry and all I see from our government is ways to regulate or flat out ban it. I'm going to head over to petition.whitehouse.gov and create a petition to back off of crypto. I know it wont do anything but we have to start somewhere.

MAbtc

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Quote from: Samarkand on August 12, 2017, 05:56:55 AM

What is stopping any US citizen from simply opening up a new BFX account?
It is not necessary to verify your account at all if you deposit and withdraw only
in cryptos.

I see the reasoning behind their decision, but I think practically you can
still continue to use their exchange, if you want to do it.

Exactly. Unverified US users (a large percentage of their userbase) may not even need to do anything if they already indicated last year that they are not US residents (even if their IP address suggested they were). If anything, US users will just start using VPNs if Bitfinex introduces IP restrictions.

I still don't think this will shield them from US government action given that they've been processing deposits and withdrawals for years to US residents. It's clearly a CYA move, but I don't think it is necessarily good enough...

aoihs00

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Why to even care for this as we have more than enough options to trade and invest money in. They have mentioned that they will be serving corporate customers as they have normalised the regulations for those customers of course this is in greed that corporate customers will invest big amounts of money than normal investors like us. Anyway, I would drop it too as I have more options to think on and can keep doing what I was doing with bitfinex. Not a big deal though.

giveen

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That's a good decision we now see ico also not allowing us residents to fund their project the problem is us has a lot of attitude they think they are the best and have perfect regulations well we can now see the crypto word gives no f**ks about us let this be a lesson for their regulations i hope more exchanges start boycotting because of all these rules i had decided to move of us long ago. Plus bitfinex told they didn't get much revenue from us customers so it's not a big deal at all.

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Quote from: xypos on August 12, 2017, 01:40:36 AM

Seems like that they are scared by the fact that BTC-e basically got brutally taken down by the US government, and they want to vaoid the US government as much as they can because they know that even with their KYC standards it might not be enough.

And plus as they said the effort and money put into handling US side of things is just too large.

Most of Bitfinex's users aren't even US citizens, meaning that discontinuing US users will lessen their profit, just not by a very large margin at all.

Just use some other exchange if you're in US and still want to trade. Most of them are still open for US, but some ban specific states.

Bitfinex lost it's ability to move dollars in April this year. And zero hedge wrote the following article about them in May:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/worlds-largest-bitcoin-exchange-headed-mt-gox-style-collapse

Quote

Could Bitfinex, the world's largest, Hong-Kong based cryptocurrency exchange, be headed for a Mt. Gox-style collapse? It's starting to look that way.

When Mt. Gox first halted customer withdrawals in February 2014, it waited more than two weeks to admit the truth to its customers: that hackers had stolen more than $450 million of their assets, leaving the exchange bankrupt and them holding the bag. That hack effectively crippled the entire digital currency ecosystem, ushering in a two-year bear market that at one point carried the bitcoin price below $200, from what was then a record high north of $1,200 reached in November 2013.

So when another exchange engages in similarly shady behavior - withholding critical information about customer funds, or failing to produce audited financials despite promising to do so - it should prompt crypto traders to ask themselves why, with dozens, if not hundreds, of cryptocurrency exchanges operating around the world, they're choosing to do business with this one.

The writing has been on the wall for some time.

If people have coins there, start moving them now. Don't wait 90 days.

Samarkand

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What is stopping any US citizen from simply opening up a new BFX account?
It is not necessary to verify your account at all if you deposit and withdraw only
in cryptos.

I see the reasoning behind their decision, but I think practically you can
still continue to use their exchange, if you want to do it.

mk4

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Quote from: 2dogs on August 11, 2017, 04:16:48 PM

Bitfinex can go to hell.

What am I supposed to do with my portfolio on Bitfinex?

Maybe.. withdraw your portfolio? Grin

You're talking as if Bitfinex ran away with your cryptocurrencies. Make it a habit of reading the actual article(s) instead of just reading the headlines and react immediately. I really expect alot more from a legendary member.

Quote from: crazyivan on August 12, 2017, 02:12:02 AM

Well, I do see this as a bad think neither for US people not for the rest of us. If a service acts like that as is afraid of being taken down, this usually means they have something to hide or they re involved in some illegal shit. Why would I use that kind of service? Crypto s NOT about scamming people and doing market manipulation.

So I d say, fuck you Bitfinex. I m from Europe and your ban does not apply to me (yet) but you will not see a single satoshi from me.

I wouldn't jump into conclusions that fast. Don't forget that the US government can pull off random reasons just to shut down businesses, not to mention we're talking about cryptocurrencies here. Which they might see as competition or a threat to their fiat. Also, maybe they're gonna disallow US citizens because of the same reason why ICOs are not allowed in the US?

LeGaulois

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A fair decision for them. Honestly, in the same shoes, we would take the same decision. If they spend too many resources/effort to serve US customers while the revenues generated is very small then the company has no use to continue it (economically speaking). Be sure they are going to restrict more, or all ICO very soon

bitjoin

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Quote from: romani245 on August 12, 2017, 03:09:24 AM

Quote from: bitjoin on August 12, 2017, 03:03:55 AM

Excellent decision by finex its too risky to deal with USA who can shut you down at anytime they feel like it. It happened with poker before and im surprised exchanges have even been dealing with the US up to now anyway. This sucks for my fellow US crypto friends so i hope you find other solutions.

Exchanges continue to serve US residents because it's such a huge market. That's why Pokerstars did it, flouting the law the whole time. Bitfinex might say that verified US users are small part of their customer base (I don't even believe that). Unverified US customers definitely form a big part of their base. They are just trying to cover their ass.

Pokerstars doesn't serve the US anymore and years ago they said a similar thing that they didn't need the US customers to continue as the majourity of their revenue came from ROW. Maybe it is in some way covering their assess. I know pokerstars has done well since then. You have to ask yourself would you serve the US if you were an exchange?

romani245

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Quote from: bitjoin on August 12, 2017, 03:03:55 AM

Excellent decision by finex its too risky to deal with USA who can shut you down at anytime they feel like it. It happened with poker before and im surprised exchanges have even been dealing with the US up to now anyway. This sucks for my fellow US crypto friends so i hope you find other solutions.

Exchanges continue to serve US residents because it's such a huge market. That's why Pokerstars did it, flouting the law the whole time. Bitfinex might say that verified US users are small part of their customer base (I don't even believe that). Unverified US customers definitely form a big part of their base. They are just trying to cover their ass.

bitjoin

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Excellent decision by finex its too risky to deal with USA who can shut you down at anytime they feel like it. It happened with poker before and im surprised exchanges have even been dealing with the US up to now anyway. This sucks for my fellow US crypto friends so i hope you find other solutions.

romani245

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Quote from: crazyivan on August 12, 2017, 02:12:02 AM

Well, I do see this as a bad think neither for US people not for the rest of us. If a service acts like that as is afraid of being taken down, this usually means they have something to hide or they re involved in some illegal shit. Why would I use that kind of service? Crypto s NOT about scamming people and doing market manipulation.

So I d say, fuck you Bitfinex. I m from Europe and your ban does not apply to me (yet) but you will not see a single satoshi from me.

Yes, I would be very careful of them. I'd get my coins out now (if I still had any there). They have been showing red flags for a long time (starting with the hack which they still can't figure out, to their inability to process fiat). It's been so long now (5 months) since they could process payouts to customers that it's pretty reasonable to start questioning their solvency.

crazyivan

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Well, I do see this as a bad think neither for US people not for the rest of us. If a service acts like that as is afraid of being taken down, this usually means they have something to hide or they re involved in some illegal shit. Why would I use that kind of service? Crypto s NOT about scamming people and doing market manipulation.

So I d say, fuck you Bitfinex. I m from Europe and your ban does not apply to me (yet) but you will not see a single satoshi from me.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: xypos on August 12, 2017, 01:40:36 AM

Seems like that they are scared by the fact that BTC-e basically got brutally taken down by the US government, and they want to vaoid the US government as much as they can because they know that even with their KYC standards it might not be enough.

And plus as they said the effort and money put into handling US side of things is just too large.

Most of Bitfinex's users aren't even US citizens, meaning that discontinuing US users will lessen their profit, just not by a very large margin at all.

Just use some other exchange if you're in US and still want to trade. Most of them are still open for US, but some ban specific states.

I suspect more of the exchange's customers are US citizens than the exchange would like to admit. When they came back online last year, they made users indicate whether they resided in the US or not. I'm sure many clicked no. Apparently there were no repercussions based on IP address or anything like that. Based on the BTC-e indictment, the fact that they admit having US customers at all (without proper MSB licensing) may be a problem...

xypos

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manchester93

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Not surprising after what's happened to BTC-e. The problem is that Bitfinex has already been processing USD for US customers for years. There is a KYC process in place, but there is the matter of licensing...

With this new "ethfinex" thing, it certainly seems like they are trying to distract from their banking problems...

alyssa85

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Quote from: Clement Kaliyar on August 11, 2017, 05:14:11 PM

So what happens to the US users will they be allowed to withdraw their coins,since they have taken this decision all of a sudden they did not even give the users the opportunity to withdraw before they implement these rules,since we have many exchanges this is not a big deal but my problem is they have to inform the users beforehand before implementing something like this.

You've got 90 days to get your funds out of Bitfinex, and if I was you I wouldn't wait, I'd move the money out now.

Remember you won't be able to get fiat out, because they've lost the ability to move dollars. So you'll either have to buy bitcoin, or buy an alt, and then move those coins out asap.

Also - note that the fees for withdrawing bitcoin are rather high on bitfinex: 0.004btc - at a bitcoin price of $3500 that is $14.

So maybe try using bitcoincash or litecoin to move money. Here are the list of withdrawal fees:

https://www.bitfinex.com/fees

But don't wait, start moving your coins now.

illinest

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Quote from: Clement Kaliyar on August 11, 2017, 05:14:11 PM

So what happens to the US users will they be allowed to withdraw their coins,since they have taken this decision all of a sudden they did not even give the users the opportunity to withdraw before they implement these rules,since we have many exchanges this is not a big deal but my problem is they have to inform the users beforehand before implementing something like this.

Presumably, yes, US users can withdraw all coins held on the exchange. They said they will be discontinuing services to such customers over the next 90 days. That suggests to me that US customers can withdraw normally for the next 90 days (possibly more). Usually after that, in similar cases, you would need to contact support, but you could still withdraw your funds after that point.

Officially, they are stopping US customers from verifying immediately. They are stopping US customers from trading ERC20 tokens in 5 days. And sometime over the next 90 days, all services will be stopped for US customers.

Clement Kaliyar

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So what happens to the US users will they be allowed to withdraw their coins,since they have taken this decision all of a sudden they did not even give the users the opportunity to withdraw before they implement these rules,since we have many exchanges this is not a big deal but my problem is they have to inform the users beforehand before implementing something like this.

MAbtc

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Quote from: Slow death on August 11, 2017, 04:35:25 PM

They are leaving because of the regulations, poloniex has changed its terms of service I suppose it is for the same reason

"Bitfinex explained that “a surprisingly small percentage of our revenues come from verified U.S. individual accounts.” Meanwhile, “a dramatically outsized portion of our resources goes into servicing the needs of U.S. individuals, including support, legal and regulatory.” Citing that it has been able to “normalize banking for some corporate customers and individuals in certain jurisdictions,” Bitfinex admitted that “compliant banking solutions for U.S. individuals remain elusive.” "

The restrictions on US customers trading ERC20/ICO tokens could definitely be linked to the SEC decision linked in their blog post. However, I think withdrawing entirely from the United States market is a much bigger story that has to do with Bitfinex lacking any licensing in the US and the recent action against the BTC-e exchange. I think that's also why they are openly stating that US customers are a tiny portion of their business (probably not true), as a feeble attempt to cover their ass regarding future claims about them operating as an MSB.

Unfortunately for them, pulling out of the US market at this point does not repair the past several years of operating unlicensed. Undecided

Slow death

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They are leaving because of the regulations, poloniex has changed its terms of service I suppose it is for the same reason

"Bitfinex explained that “a surprisingly small percentage of our revenues come from verified U.S. individual accounts.” Meanwhile, “a dramatically outsized portion of our resources goes into servicing the needs of U.S. individuals, including support, legal and regulatory.” Citing that it has been able to “normalize banking for some corporate customers and individuals in certain jurisdictions,” Bitfinex admitted that “compliant banking solutions for U.S. individuals remain elusive.” "

1Referee

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Quote from: 2dogs on August 11, 2017, 04:16:48 PM

Bitfinex can go to hell.

What am I supposed to do with my portfolio on Bitfinex?

After everything that happened, Bitfinex isn't an exchange you should be storing any funds on in the first place. Not sure what your portfolio exactly consists of, but see this as a red flag signal to withdraw everything you have ASAP. It may not seem like a positive statement coming from Bitfinex, but if you look at it from a different perspective, they at least can't make any more US related victims if they happen to go nuts at some point (I definitely believe they will, the only question is when).

TryNinja

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Quote from: 2dogs on August 11, 2017, 04:16:48 PM

Bitfinex can go to hell.

What am I supposed to do with my portfolio on Bitfinex?

Withdraw and stop using it? It's not like they are immediately locking every US customer from using their services and just stealing their funds.

Quote

Furthermore, over the next 90 days, we will be discontinuing services to our existing U.S. individual customers. We will be communicating further with affected users on timing and specifics. Our intention is to reduce disruption as much as possible for our U.S. customers.

2dogs

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Bitfinex can go to hell.

What am I supposed to do with my portfolio on Bitfinex?

alyssa85

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https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/216

Quote

Service Changes for U.S. Customers

Bitfinex is making changes to the services we provide to U.S. individuals. These changes impact the verification process and trading of certain digital tokens for U.S. customers. Some changes are effective immediately, and others will be gradually implemented in the coming weeks.

Suspension of U.S. Individual Verification Requests

We regret to announce that, effective immediately, we will no longer be accepting verification requests for U.S. individuals.

We have for some time considered pulling away from the retail marketplace in the U.S., and now with a current backlog of verification requests and ongoing difficulties in providing USD deposit and withdrawals for U.S. individuals, we feel that the time has come to begin disengaging from U.S. retail customers.

Several factors have gone into this decision:

While we have been able to normalize banking for some corporate customers and individuals in certain jurisdictions, compliant banking solutions for U.S. individuals remain elusive. We have been slowly and selectively inviting users in particular jurisdictions who meet set criteria to start using banking channels that have come online. This process is ongoing.
A surprisingly small percentage of our revenues come from verified U.S. individual accounts while a dramatically outsized portion of our resources goes into servicing the needs of U.S. individuals, including support, legal and regulatory.
We anticipate the regulatory landscape to become even more challenging in the future.
Bitfinex is not based in the United States. Exchanges based in the U.S. are better positioned to properly service retail U.S. customers.

We are thankful to all of our loyal U.S. customers that have consistently traded with us but, unfortunately, we have an obligation to our whole customer base and to our shareholders to make rational resource allocation decisions.

Furthermore, over the next 90 days, we will be discontinuing services to our existing U.S. individual customers. We will be communicating further with affected users on timing and specifics. Our intention is to reduce disruption as much as possible for our U.S. customers.

We will continue to take advice and implement further changes as circumstances warrant.

Restrictions on U.S. Persons Trading Certain Digital Tokens

Pursuant to the recent report of investigation issued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Bitfinex is taking the proactive step of barring U.S. customers from trading certain digital tokens that may be deemed securities in the eyes of the SEC.

The restriction will generally apply to ERC20 tokens issued through "ICOs" and will go into effect at noon UTC on Wednesday, August 16, 2017. No trading of these tokens will be allowed for U.S. customers. At the time of this post, the tokens active on Bitfinex that will be subject to this restriction are EOS (EOS) and Santiment (SAN).

Once again, we regret any inconvenience this change in policy might create, but we believe this to be a prudent measure given the regulatory uncertainty surrounding such digital assets.

Topic: Bitfinex is dropping their US customers (Read 1833 times)