Topic: bithra.com | Free and provably fair escrow (Read 3218 times)

^ This is the exact reason I don't want to deal with this shit anymore.

1. I explicitly promise not to provide arbitration, and don't charge a fee. It's like going to a soup kitchen and screaming they don't offer clothes.

2. Screenshots can be faked, and even if the screenshot is real, how can I tell it's with the real party. It could be a conversation with his buddy? I've literally had a scammer try get his money out of an escrow before by using faked emails, and after I pushed back on his request he ended up releasing the money to the seller.

4. Yes, if you want arbitration use someone who offers it. They will charge a small fee (generally) and actually be aware of the terms of the deal and the participants. The way bithra is setup, I literally don't even know the involved parties.

After a lot of thinking, I've disabled creating new escrows on bithra. The main point of bithra was to remove the incentive from scamming, it was never (by design) able to stop it. I still think it's a cool idea, and by and large has helped a lot of people; but I'd rather not get dragged into this crap when things go wrong. In kassadin5's specific case for example, while I feel for him, he's used a free escrow service with full awareness that it doesn't provide arbitration and then jumps to accuse me of scamming when he doesn't get arbitration. Incidentally, I've spent >1 BTC out of my own pocket helping people who were scammed while using bithra (like tricked into releasing the funds),  (as some of the previous comments will attest to). There's a hand-full of uncompleted escrow addresses, if they're not resolved within a year of creation I'll sweep them into some public donation addresses. No extensions of existing escrows will be granted, they'll need to be terminated within a year.


I'll reopen it for new escrows if I have the time and energy to develop a system where the receiver needs to provide a deposit, to prove he's serious about the trade and will suffer a financial loss if he's merely trolling.

This is because screenshots are not valid proof whatsoever, and should never be taken as such (especially when monetary loss could ensue because of it). I mean, you even said the same thing to me over Skype, right?

That's why I never trust online escrows and never will trust them all at once!
There is no intellectual arbitration if one party tends to be trolling while completing a deal and the owner of escrow provider (Rhavar in this case) not believing in screenshots which already provides a solid proof to the case! Also he won't be returning the funds to the person who previously believed in a service.

These kind of online escrows are kind of money sucking services to be honest! I will never ever recommend them when reliable members like Blazed and Ognasty are here to do the job in a much more efficient and mature way.

I'm sorry to say that Rhavar is not at all being professional with this service unlike he is on Bustabit. That's totally not expected from you!

Part of why I think Bithra is working perfectly is that it isn't blinded by any He said / She said issues that would cloud an Escrow's mind.  On the scam accusation page in the last hour lind82 has admitted he has already sold the item he'd already sold to kassadin5 who organised the Escrow through Bithra to another buyer (ie sold the same item twice).

In the last hour I have proposed to lind82 that they reimburse to kassadin5 the BTC 0.24 via a third party and then kassadin5 (who has already offered to provide the secret release to said third party) will release the funds that are destined for lind82.

Since I made the offer to lind82 they have gone offline.

kassadin5 be very wary if lind82 starts suggesting that you use an escrow of their choosing to send the secret key to - there have been a few fake Escrows popping up claiming to be the real person when in fact they are impersonators.

So finally it started to an scam. that's shit.. now people should be more careful about web based escrow services. I think we already have our legit and genuine human escrows here in bitcoin talk so we should prefer to get help from them instead of using a website which doesn't give any guarantee for your money. 

i can help you for get btc you back, if you want ...

ok then, what evidence do you need to release my btc? i will get it
*edit, just saw timelord's post, he's right, we'll continue this over there

From what I have seen Bithra.com is working exactly as it is supposed to.

As an outside observer, I have addressed at length the dual scam accusations here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15449921 and have also contacted lind82 for comment.

As there is a dedicated scam accusation thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/scammed-by-forum-user-lind82-and-escrow-service-bithracom-photo-proof-1534851 it is unnecessary to continue this discussion any further here.

the money from the scam is stuck in bithra, and the owner of bithra himself admits he is 100% sure it's my money and i've been scammed, and he refuses to give me my btc
"However we do plan on sweeping abandoned escrows that are clearly never going to be resolved (older than a year, and no extensions)"
this is a quote from the page FAQ, he makes money by sweeping anything older then a year, and as you can see on the picture below, he asked me to wait for (wait for it) 1 year before contacting him
suspicious?


https://i.imgur.com/zoHSpnF.png

Maybe, but this is a scam accusation and shouldn't be clogging up bithra.com's thread. Can you take it to the Scam Accusations section?

can you see them now

https://i.imgur.com/RpoydOz.png

https://i.imgur.com/VOfajQ6.png

https://i.imgur.com/ihPiHl1.png

You need to put all this in the Scam accusation section...

In any event, you put this into user lind82 's trust...


lind82 https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/lind82-552363

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I can't actually read what the screen shots say, but I'm just wondering did the other party refuse to send whatever it is, or have you decided not to go ahead with the trade?

Did you understand how Bithra has been set up to lock funds away until agreement can be reached?

hello? RHavar i saw you just gave him negative trust, please answer my pm

i need advice if you can
i just went to buy something worth 160$ on bithra escrow from forum user lind82 (SCAMMER, PLEASE GIVE HIM NEGATIVE TRUST), i sent the money, then the seller (as you can see from the screenshots below) asked for the key, i started googling and found this
is there really no way to dispute my btc back?
before you start commenting on my trust read what it says, im not a scammer, i just sell something that shouldnt be sold
anyway pls help me guys, i really need the money...

Hmm:

Two things:

Firstly there is no "negative" on alipro's account (at all) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=857215

Secondly, please take your scam accusation to the so named scam accusation section.

yes,he is a fraud
How can I do now???
https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipNpnWVdfvNeCiYOcaX5EEUeUAUUdDmzcVOb8tJW

This is the guy who scammed me, F "lakuf" and all your alt accounts.

AMAZING SERVICE. RHaver is the REAL DEAL!

I lost 50$ earlier today to a scammer after not reading the details on escrow. I contacted RHaver and immediately got a response back. He blacklisted the guy who scammed me, neg trust him, and then graciously REFUNDED me out of his OWN POCKET!! AMAZING guy. Will be using his escrow service in the future and cant recommend his service enough to you guys!!

just do an escrow on bithra.com with lakuf,wish it work well

Sorry about the delay getting back to this:

Mozilla FireFox and SeaMonkey both don't show the balance, however, Maxthon Cloud does show the balance, so all I have to do now is have the funds released.

(The above versions are all PortableApps versions of the Browsers)...

I figured that by giving the link to blockchain.info that it would be taken as given that I had already checked the link to block trail https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/address/1DeiTBRzQYhfwyTSXH5RP82u3xCcC7uAWf which also shows the funds as having landed.

However, the Bithra page still hasn't updated stating:


https://www.bithra.com/escrows/1DeiTBRzQYhfwyTSXH5RP82u3xCcC7uAWf


What browser can you see it on?

I'm sure I won't be the only one asking, traders and their customers will also want to see the funds are being held in Escrow before they continue.

Thanks again.

In theory using Bithra the person who puts the coins into Escrow has already lost them, so it's in their best interest to make the deal happen.  I can see somewhere down the track some serious coin will get "donated" to the Bithra creator, as I read something about he gets the cons after one year (still not sure how he manages that if he doesn't have the "release secret"

Ive dealt with some pretty mean traders in the past. They agree to use escrow, I provide them with the service, but they don't release the payment. It just sits in the escrow's wallet. How do you guys combat this?

Also, what if the recipient does not fulfill the job or you want to decrease his pay due to bad quality?

Hi, I thought I'd try Bithra out,

On the Block Chain I have BTC 0.00164169 https://blockchain.info/address/1DeiTBRzQYhfwyTSXH5RP82u3xCcC7uAWf

However, on Bithra it says I have no funds: https://www.bithra.com/escrows/1DeiTBRzQYhfwyTSXH5RP82u3xCcC7uAWf

When does the page update?  (Refreshing the page doesn't update the total).

Thanks.

It is good to have an easier way to do escrow. It was too complicated (IMO) to do it in the traditional way.

Brilliant! I was looking for exactly something like this!
Great job!
Thank you!

The release secret is 100% generated client-side, and NEVER sent to the server. You can verify this by either:
a) Check the source code (a bit tricky, because bitcoinjs-lib is minified and hard to check its not tampered with)
b) Check the network tab in chrome (you'll see only the address is sent)
c) Use the advanced mode, and generate an addresss totally off the site, and only provide the address  (most recommended, if you're concerned)

You can still put money in a released escrow, and re-release it. i.e. your money won't be lost.  But because the escrow is released, it can't be used multiple times (the provably fair system only says "release the entire escrow" it doesn't say "release payments sent before X". So you should use a new escrow for new things.

You can make installment payments to the escrow address, yeah. And when it's released, all the outputs will be sent at once to the receiver. Super dusty payments (e.g. under ~20) won't be used, because they'll add more to the txfee than they would to the output amount

• Other websites for wallet creations have from time to time had suggested to them that they could see the wallet private key "Release Secret:", how are you prevented from seeing the private key "Release Secret:" that gets displayed on the home page when a user sets up an Escrow?
• Once the "Release Secret:" is used to release the held funds does that wallet then become inoperable?
• If a person was making part payments (eg paying in installments, would the Destination act the same way a ordinary wallet address would in accepting any number of deposits?

Thanks for reading.

Seems an impressive website, i might try it with some small transactions where it is not worth the time for a forum escrow.

Nicely spotted. But actually I push to both bc.info and blockr. The code if interested: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/rmczv2tqcr196vz/oxrp5rgx.png


I already run a full node for bustabit, so I could push it to that node with a few minutes work. I actually store the transaction (and the release signature) before it's pushed in the database, so it's a TODO: to expose that to the user as well.



Good point

[/quote]
Yup, thanks

Received, thanks and appreciated.

It looks like you might have it setup so that the release transactions will get broadcast via blockchain.info's node (maybe via blockchain.info/pushtx), and although they are my personal favorite block explorer, they do have a lot of problems, especially DDoS type problems that prevent people from accessing their website (or broadcasting transactions via them). If running a full node is too costly for your service that you are not charging anything for, then I might suggest running electrum, using the "loan transaction -> from text" feature and then broadcasting the signed transaction via electrum (and possibly also providing the signed transaction that the user can broadcast themselves in case of other problems).

I might also suggest that you require some kind of cryptographic confirmation that the release secret (what appears to be a private key generated by your website) was actually backed up or that the user can in fact sign a message from the address they say they will sign from to release the funds prior to generating the escrow address. This will prevent someone from inadvertently creating an escrow address that is essentially impossible to release.

It also looks like your FAQ might have a typo:

I believe that you intended for this to say "...You can generate it directly with our website..."

If the funds are never released, they will be forever lost to bithra. They won't be sent to the destination, or returned to sender -- as picking either of them could encourage a type of scammers. It kind of mimicks what happens in a 2-of-2 escrow situation, when the parties don't come to agreement (except in this case, I keep the money instead of them being forever unspendable)

Uggh. And thanks! I threw 0.05 BTC into your escrow while you're waiting. Seems like my latest change has stopped the "Advanced" release from actually sending the signature to the server. Will have it fixed in a few minutes.

Note to self: Setup email alerts for errors

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Thanks! Stupid mistake, fixed. And I used the interface to release the escrow.

(Posting it here, as you made the details public)

https://live.blockcypher.com/btc/tx/c5d19e91a26e50a8e5ca23f6b9a8187c389dafec1bfd25126f008047b256ffd0/


The fee on that is strangely small, but it's seems to be working correctly (blocktrail's api is telling me the optimal fee is 94.12 bits per KiB)

I tried it out and it seems there is some issue.

I am receiving an error message saying to check the console and upon inspection of the console it looks like the server is responding with a status of 500 ()

If possible can you please release the coins back to my address

{
  "address": "1MGeKWdiUiKPBt3NUR7NsmNDsZT5LgycrW",
  "message": "The address 1H8YMrRaQeYJELbcVqatuRETtiLKL5Pkvw was generated on 2016-05-03T03:15:47.203Z by bithra.com, and holds funds in escrow for 1GTpwVr3UJsMTkdqVnwymGXR1udtDpo5f9 and will be released with signed instructions from 1AiJ9npjZceutRaASKT77jucsWpLsRPMWB in the next year",
  "signature": "IKKMZfp+sKPyDTSIPvvGZ5GYiFtTHkzrAYDY4y0lzL0xFxhNwFHRS3wGM2+PlWZi0ooGLrgR2Ww9B4APvXLIvq0="
}

---

---

{
  "address": "1AiJ9npjZceutRaASKT77jucsWpLsRPMWB",
  "message": "release all escrowed funds from 1H8YMrRaQeYJELbcVqatuRETtiLKL5Pkvw",
  "signature": "ICyFNJtDTmzwHfroK4HDTxUsOTU3Dw2rOJ/8m/04dA5GSL/xT/yxmD/W6RMj46emfEZchmNlhoc8bKzn58sUvSw="
}

---

I am also curious to know what will happen after the one year period is up

Thanks! The two parties need to work it out. It's the moral equivalent of 2-of-2 multisig, but designed to be easier to use  (no public key sharing, both people don't need to sign the transaction). If you need arbitration or something more advanced, it's not really the service.

There was a good discussion of it in bustabit, but basically the summary is that it removes the upside in scamming -- but doesn't prevent people scamming.

Yeah, I think at a single point of time I had held >1000 BTC of other peoples money that I could've stolen if dishonest, and in total processed a little over 16k BTC of peoples withdraws. It doesn't really prove I will always act ethically, but bithra.com is just supposed to be a light weight alternative to "Send me the money first", not the be all and end all. I specifically avoided any advanced features and usage just to make it simple.

The use case I'm trying to replace is: "Hey, I'm new and selling X. Please send me the money first, I promise I won't scam you. I don't have time to use a human escrow". It's not trying to replace trustless on-chain schemes, and things that offer better guarantees.

Actually it offers a little more guarantee than what is typically called "provably fair". Because in addition to proving to yourself it's fair (like gambling) it allows you to prove to others to prove you were cheated (non-repudiation).

The provably fairness is explained in the FAQ, but here's a practical example:


You need to verify three things:
*  The address is indeed the one we use to sign guarantees
*  The signature is valid ( I like this tool:
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC?verifysignedmessage=1 )
* The details are correct

Now you can save that guarantee, and if we don't act according to it -- you can call us out on scamming!

That is only one part of it though, and probably one of the smaller parts. The main reason he should be trusted is because he owns bustabit, and previously owned moneypot. Moneypot had lots of bitcoin invested in the bankroll, and I don't believe a single satoshi was stolen since after the sale, people could access and withdraw their funds at mp.bustabit.com. Bustabit has also had a lot of bitcoin wagered, and large winners are paid out very quickly, with some huge 10+ bitcoin withdraws. There wouldn't be much of a point for Ryan to create a site, just to scam people since if he did, his site (which probably makes him nice profit) would get a lot smaller volume, and there would be less profit.

Very nice site.  I'm impressed.

What happens in the case of disputes?

^^What is this? So, you are basically asking for a favor for being on default trust level 2! Where is the provable fairness in it?

sorry i dont understand with provably fair, it means every transaction would be transparent? and whether this escrow service would be free for forever

Yeah, I act as escrow for all transactions on the site (just don't provide arbitration services). The moral equivalent of using 2-of-2 multisig, just with a nicer UX but worse guarantees. But yeah, there's definitely a lot less counter-party risk in using bithra than trusting some random stranger when trading

So with this site, you can basically become an escrow service provider yourself easily, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong)
This is absolutely amazing. I might use this sometime soon.
Note: There's no reason to not trust the site because the owner of bithra is the owner of bustabit too.

I'd like to announce bithra.com a completely free, automated and provably fair bitcoin escrow.

It's something I've wanted to build for a while, with the goal of making escrow so easy, quick (and free) that there's no reason to not use it. Part of making it user-friendly, means I had to forgo some of the more fancy cryptography like M-of-N which would require users to work with public keys -- but I have managed to make it provably fair.

It also comes with an API if that's your thing. Give it a try, I think you'll like it =)

https://www.bithra.com/