BitPay no longer serving banned countries

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Quote from: malevolent on May 27, 2019, 04:20:56 PM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 26, 2019, 05:12:51 PM

Local Bitcoins has many employees located in the US and in jurisdictions the US can exert pressure over. If a company such as Local Bitcoins were to help a company evade sanctions, it would be sanctioned, and would be unable to use the banking system, including to pay for hosting, payroll and the like. The US could also sanction its employees, who would be unable to use any bank.
In short, PR is the last thing local bitcoins would be worried about if it was on the OFAC sanctions list, or was otherwise sanctioned by the US. It would fail almost immediately.

LBC has any key employees outside Finland? Last time I checked only some of their customer support employees were located abroad, and only in poorer countries.

According to linkedin, they have four employees in the US, one is a "cryptocurrency trader" (I would not count this), one is a "Project Manager" and I cannot see the job titles of the other two. Job titles and companies are self reported on Linkedin, so this may not be reliable, but I don't see why someone would pretend to be a project manager at LocalBitcoins.

They also have an opening for a Russian speaking customer support agent in mexico.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 26, 2019, 05:12:51 PM

Local Bitcoins has many employees located in the US and in jurisdictions the US can exert pressure over. If a company such as Local Bitcoins were to help a company evade sanctions, it would be sanctioned, and would be unable to use the banking system, including to pay for hosting, payroll and the like. The US could also sanction its employees, who would be unable to use any bank.
In short, PR is the last thing local bitcoins would be worried about if it was on the OFAC sanctions list, or was otherwise sanctioned by the US. It would fail almost immediately.

LBC has any key employees outside Finland? Last time I checked only some of their customer support employees were located abroad, and only in poorer countries.

They could just stick with smaller EU hosting companies without US presence.

Quote from: figmentofmyass on May 27, 2019, 11:53:31 AM

lol, you think anyone would use localbitcoins anymore if the USA designated them as a sanctioned entity? they would be a complete pariah. it would be an immediate death sentence for their brand. the banking system and paying overheads are an afterthought since sanctions would immediately kill all customer demand for localbitcoin's services. like i said, PR nightmare, one which would never be recovered from.

People outside the US would still use it, maybe even more gladly so. When they got blocked in Russia they posted instructions on how to evade the blockage: https://localbitcoins.com/blog/roskomnadzor-bans-localbitcoins-in-russia/

If they really wanted to they'd come up with something.

Meanwhile UK-based hodlhodl.com, even if they're irrelevant, decided to take the initiative and welcome Iranians with open arms:

https://medium.com/@hodlhodl/hodl-hodls-official-statement-for-iranian-traders-9429603079c

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 26, 2019, 05:12:51 PM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on May 26, 2019, 01:10:50 PM

from a PR standpoint, i'm fairly sure localbitcoins does not want to be on a USA sanctions list, regardless of whether it directly affects their cash flow. that would be a PR nightmare. so if that's where the pressure is coming from, i believe they would fall in line immediately.

Local Bitcoins has many employees located in the US and in jurisdictions the US can exert pressure over. If a company such as Local Bitcoins were to help a company evade sanctions, it would be sanctioned, and would be unable to use the banking system, including to pay for hosting, payroll and the like. The US could also sanction its employees, who would be unable to use any bank.

In short, PR is the last thing local bitcoins would be worried about if it was on the OFAC sanctions list, or was otherwise sanctioned by the US. It would fail almost immediately.

lol, you think anyone would use localbitcoins anymore if the USA designated them as a sanctioned entity? they would be a complete pariah. it would be an immediate death sentence for their brand. the banking system and paying overheads are an afterthought since sanctions would immediately kill all customer demand for localbitcoin's services. like i said, PR nightmare, one which would never be recovered from.

you ignored the point btw. i said regardless of whether it directly affects their cash flow. i wasn't saying sanctions wouldn't affect them. at all.

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Quote from: Kavelj22 on May 26, 2019, 07:30:37 PM

Some of those countries are near to me and I know many users who will not be happy hearing the news.
Am not a bitpay user, but I used to pay bitpay invoices when converting my BTC to Neteller/Skrill or make deposit in my NameShip account. If am a citizen of one of the mentioned country, does this mean that will not anymore able to pay those invoices or have a Bitpay wallet?

I'm not entirely sure about Bitpay wallet but maybe Copay would still be functional as it's open source. And yes, that means that you won't be able to pay invoices anymore, at least, not without changing your IP address using a VPN.

Big services like Skrill or Neteller probably did or will remove BTC as a payment method for depositing in the mentioned countries and in that case, a VPN won't be much help.

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Some of those countries are near to me and I know many users who will not be happy hearing the news.
Am not a bitpay user, but I used to pay bitpay invoices when converting my BTC to Neteller/Skrill or make deposit in my NameShip account. If am a citizen of one of the mentioned countries, does this mean that i will not anymore be able to pay those invoices or use a Bitpay wallet?

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on May 26, 2019, 01:10:50 PM

from a PR standpoint, i'm fairly sure localbitcoins does not want to be on a USA sanctions list, regardless of whether it directly affects their cash flow. that would be a PR nightmare. so if that's where the pressure is coming from, i believe they would fall in line immediately.

Local Bitcoins has many employees located in the US and in jurisdictions the US can exert pressure over. If a company such as Local Bitcoins were to help a company evade sanctions, it would be sanctioned, and would be unable to use the banking system, including to pay for hosting, payroll and the like. The US could also sanction its employees, who would be unable to use any bank.

In short, PR is the last thing local bitcoins would be worried about if it was on the OFAC sanctions list, or was otherwise sanctioned by the US. It would fail almost immediately.

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Quote from: malevolent on May 25, 2019, 08:11:26 AM

Quote from: DooMAD on May 25, 2019, 08:07:04 AM

Yeah, Localbitcoins is the confusing one, having recently blocked users from Iran. Would it be something to do with them technically qualifying as an escrow for all the trades there? It wouldn't surprise me if part of the US sanctions against Iran included preventing companies from offering escrow services to Iranian residents.

That could be the reason, but I would have thought being based in the EU (and not using the US banking system) would be enough to be unaffected by US sanctions. Perhaps they have investors based in the US, or EU sanctions against Iran are strong enough to prevent them from servicing people from that country.

from a PR standpoint, i'm fairly sure localbitcoins does not want to be on a USA sanctions list, regardless of whether it directly affects their cash flow. that would be a PR nightmare. so if that's where the pressure is coming from, i believe they would fall in line immediately.

i wouldn't be surprised either, considering the threat of secondary sanctions the OFAC made for anyone dealing with designated iranians, whether in bitcoin or fiat currency.

as far as EU sanctions go, some still remain in force, although i'm not sure which ones: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/sanctions/iran/

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Quote from: DooMAD on May 25, 2019, 08:07:04 AM

Quote from: malevolent on May 25, 2019, 05:08:13 AM

Yes but Localbitcoins doesn't need to make use of the legacy financial system of these countries to serve users there, they could easily ignore the law and let people transact at their own risk.

Yeah, Localbitcoins is the confusing one, having recently blocked users from Iran. Would it be something to do with them technically qualifying as an escrow for all the trades there? It wouldn't surprise me if part of the US sanctions against Iran included preventing companies from offering escrow services to Iranian residents.

I don't think so. If we think out of the box and out of the crypto industry, it would mean there are other entities restricted in a similar way. I am referring to the banks and to the payments services (prepaid account, prepaid card, EMIs,..). I don't remember to read about a situation like this.

It could be considered ironic knowing there are surely either a bank, a Mutual Fund Yield, a firm, or whatever from the US operating there.
And the fact there is a good chance that Iran, as an Oil Exporter, holds part of the American debt (with others Oils Exporters)

As the adage says: "Follow the Money"

It's the same thing when it's about the fight with North Korea (for its rare-earth metal (maybe the only country worldwide with REM, 'needed for all kind of technologies)) and with China (for idk, economic stuff, or because China is the 2nd country holding the US debt.)

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Damn, that's tough news. I'm not sure whether to feel glad I'm not on that list, though several of those actually are really near me. Feels rather arbitrary though, to include an innocent like say, Nepal, and yet not the usual suspects on the axis of evil (heh) like DPRK or Rep of Iran.

Just another reason to really not be happy with Bitpay, but as we're stuck with them for now until merchants wisen up and get better payment processors, guess we just got to bite down on the bit.

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Quote from: malevolent on May 25, 2019, 05:08:13 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 25, 2019, 01:32:11 AM

I could not find anything for Bangladesh, but the rest of the countries appear to have banned bitcoin/cryptocurrencies in one way or another.
Indonesia has banned payment gateways from accepting bitcoin according to the above wiki article.

Yes but Localbitcoins doesn't need to make use of the legacy financial system of these countries to serve users there, they could easily ignore the law and let people transact at their own risk.

I am not aware of Localbitcoins banning trading in any country except for Iran, which I believe is most probably due to sanctions against the Iran government.

It is my understanding it is BitPay (a payment processor that helps businesses accept bitcoin and convert it into local fiat) has banned using their service in the countries referenced in the OP. The article OmegaStarScream referenced actually explains the reason why they banned using their service from certain countries:

Quote

BitPay also complies with local regulations which ban cryptocurrency. If your country has banned bitcoin or cryptocurrency use in general, we cannot offer our services to your business or customers.

Currently, BitPay cannot service merchants or users that are based in the following countries: Algeria, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cambodia, Ecuador, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Morocco, Nepal, and Vietnam.

The article also says they cannot do business with any person or business based in a country sanctioned on the OFAC list. BitPay should also be checking the OFAC list against specific individuals/businesses they are doing business with, even if not based out of a banned country; they might do this even if they don't specifically say they do in the article.

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Quote from: malevolent on May 25, 2019, 08:11:26 AM

That could be the reason, but I would have thought being based in the EU (and not using the US banking system) would be enough to be unaffected by US sanctions. Perhaps they have investors based in the US, or EU sanctions against Iran are strong enough to prevent them from servicing people from that country.

Having one single American customer is enough to get 1000 Hellfire missiles raining down on your ass. Doesn't matter if you're based elsewhere. The world will be a better place when US brutality is finally shut down.

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Quote from: DooMAD on May 25, 2019, 08:07:04 AM

Yeah, Localbitcoins is the confusing one, having recently blocked users from Iran. Would it be something to do with them technically qualifying as an escrow for all the trades there? It wouldn't surprise me if part of the US sanctions against Iran included preventing companies from offering escrow services to Iranian residents.

That could be the reason, but I would have thought being based in the EU (and not using the US banking system) would be enough to be unaffected by US sanctions. Perhaps they have investors based in the US, or EU sanctions against Iran are strong enough to prevent them from servicing people from that country.

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Quote from: malevolent on May 25, 2019, 05:08:13 AM

Yes but Localbitcoins doesn't need to make use of the legacy financial system of these countries to serve users there, they could easily ignore the law and let people transact at their own risk.

Yeah, Localbitcoins is the confusing one, having recently blocked users from Iran. Would it be something to do with them technically qualifying as an escrow for all the trades there? It wouldn't surprise me if part of the US sanctions against Iran included preventing companies from offering escrow services to Iranian residents.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 25, 2019, 01:32:11 AM

I could not find anything for Bangladesh, but the rest of the countries appear to have banned bitcoin/cryptocurrencies in one way or another.
Indonesia has banned payment gateways from accepting bitcoin according to the above wiki article.

Yes but Localbitcoins doesn't need to make use of the legacy financial system of these countries to serve users there, they could easily ignore the law and let people transact at their own risk.

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on May 24, 2019, 11:52:30 AM

ShapeShift, which doesn't let US residents use their service.

This is not true. I have a ShapeShift account that I use as I wish, that is verified with my US address.

They even have a section in their TOS for CA residents:

Quote from: malevolent on May 24, 2019, 06:34:33 PM

Anyone know what's their reasoning on banning these specific countries? Serving Iraqi users might be unnecessarily expensive from a compliance PoV with BitPay based in the US, but the rest I don't understand.

https://en.bitcoinwiki.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory#Alphabetical_index_to_classifications

I could not find anything for Bangladesh, but the rest of the countries appear to have banned bitcoin/cryptocurrencies in one way or another.
Indonesia has banned payment gateways from accepting bitcoin according to the above wiki article.

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Anyone know what's their reasoning on banning these specific countries? Serving Iraqi users might be unnecessarily expensive from a compliance PoV with BitPay based in the US, but the rest I don't understand.

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Quote from: Patatas on May 24, 2019, 03:55:05 PM

Quote from: DooMAD on May 24, 2019, 03:50:34 PM

It was bound to happen sooner or later. This is the natural order of things. The weaker systems with a single point of failure will gradually become co-opted by the authorities and will subsequently be superseded by more resilient systems. It's simple evolution.

Are you a history teacher or a philosophical bot? lol That statement is then most off-topic on-t6opic statement ever lol

If my words are lost on you, the fault clearly lies with you. I'm not shocked by this news. This sort of thing is going to happen to other services too. It will continue to happen until people realise that centralised systems are very easy for governments to manipulate.

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Quote from: DooMAD on May 24, 2019, 03:50:34 PM

It was bound to happen sooner or later. This is the natural order of things. The weaker systems with a single point of failure will gradually become co-opted by the authorities and will subsequently be superseded by more resilient systems. It's simple evolution.

Are you a history teacher or a philosophical bot? lol That statement is then most off-topic on-t6opic statement ever lol

Quote from: AmoreJaz on May 24, 2019, 02:37:39 PM

but what other service are you talking about here? is there an alternative payment provider already existing on those mentioned countries?
sometimes you really have no choice using the BitPay service.

I don't know lol What I intended to say was, BitPay is a terrible service and no country should be forced to use it. That is, use the alternatives and not that buggy senseless piece of software.

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It was bound to happen sooner or later. This is the natural order of things. The weaker systems with a single point of failure will gradually become co-opted by the authorities and will subsequently be superseded by more resilient systems. It's simple evolution.

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Quote from: AmoreJaz on May 24, 2019, 02:37:39 PM

but what other service are you talking about here? is there an alternative payment provider already existing on those mentioned countries?
sometimes you really have no choice using the BitPay service.

There are many. E.g my fav one: https://btcpayserver.org/ - as said above (open source, free, you own the keys, no one can freeze your money, block you or ban countries, you can use the lightning network, etc..., and it WORKS EVERYWHERE regardless of your country).

We can all do our part to show these services that we prefer other (better) alternatives.

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Quote from: Patatas on May 24, 2019, 02:33:32 PM

I wonder why isn't my country on that list? Every country forbidden from using BitPay are the luckiest countries ever. They deserve a much better service to handle their bitcoin payments and not a broken shitty application like BitPay.

but what other service are you talking about here? is there an alternative payment provider already existing on those mentioned countries?
sometimes you really have no choice using the BitPay service.

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I wonder why isn't my country on that list? Every country forbidden from using BitPay are the luckiest countries ever. They deserve a much better service to handle their bitcoin payments and not a broken shitty application like BitPay.

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The thing is, their main interest when using Bitpay is the bitcoins are converted into fiat and send to their bank... It may even be the only thing that interests them. Anything else they're not interested. Also regarding accounting, there is maybe less work to do, they don't have to report the trades, etc, you know, the usual boring papers.

Personally, I didn't know BTCpay but I am thinking about something. Someone can code the stuff to had API from exchanges, then when a sale is done the API send-trade-withdraw. Then he has his own BitPay alt

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Though it's unfortunate for users who pay for services/products through BitPay, I personally couldn't care less. It's so much of a hassle to use BitPay due to the fact that there's no wallet address displayed and you'd have to manually sort of convert the QR code yourself. Hopefully better BTC payment processors gets created.

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This sucks. True, bitcoin can't be controlled....but it sort of can, and this is one example of how.

I'm a very tech-illiterate guy, but I know what a VPN is and I've recently thought about using one in order to use services like ShapeShift, which doesn't let US residents use their service. I have a feeling this BitPay thing is not going to be the end of it, either.

Quote from: AB de Royse777 on May 24, 2019, 08:25:21 AM

By the way, I do not like to use BitPay. I feel like it's following paypal business model.

Like it or not, sometimes you have no choice.

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Here you have to consider BitPay more like a payment processor than something else. And of course, all the things that come with. I'm not so surprised.
Yes you need a bank account if you're a merchant and yes it can be seen as useless to forbid some countries while it's difficult to make a bank account, not in your name.
The same goes for Paypal while there are several countries blacklisted there too.

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Quote from: subSTRATA on May 24, 2019, 09:26:18 AM

~snip~
im assuming bitpay involves linking a bank account to use its services; that being said, it should be pretty difficult for the average user to bypass the service blocking bank account associated with those countries. if youre using it just as a wallet, which is what i assume is the extent of your use for it given your statement, you shouldnt really be limited too much with the use of a vpn.

You mean for the merchants? Not sure about it however once I have used Bitpay to pay for my hosting and I did not require anything. I just downloaded their wallet. Sent the required BTC I needed to pay and then when I got the invoice link from the service I was buying I paid them using the link of BitPay.

But honestly speaking I did not like it. I had to send BTC from my account to BitPay then from BitPay to the service provider which was a hassle any way.

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Quote from: OmegaStarScream on May 24, 2019, 08:23:22 AM

the people from the following countries:

Quote

Algeria, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cambodia, Ecuador, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Morocco, Nepal, and Vietnam.

Can no longer use BitPay.

there are things from the crypto world that are a very nasty joke and this is one of them:

this is on the bitpay site.

LocalBitcoins Imposes Restrictions on Iranian Accounts

Quote from: https://cointelegraph.com/news/localbitcoins-imposes-restrictions-on-iranian-accounts

Major peer-to-peer cryptocurrency exchange LocalBitcoins.com has banned users living in Iran, according to their website as of today, May 24.

I wonder what the next countries will be?

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on May 24, 2019, 08:25:21 AM

Quote from: OmegaStarScream on May 24, 2019, 08:23:22 AM

~snip~

If you're using a service that uses BitPay for accepting payments, you won't be able to do so anymore.

Use VPN. It's an old news I think. You can not open their wallet if you are from any of these country however there are always a way out :-P

As I said, use VPN :-)

By the way, I do not like to use BitPay. I feel like it's following paypal business model.

im assuming bitpay involves linking a bank account to use its services; that being said, it should be pretty difficult for the average user to bypass the service blocking bank account associated with those countries. if youre using it just as a wallet, which is what i assume is the extent of your use for it given your statement, you shouldnt really be limited too much with the use of a vpn.

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Quote from: OmegaStarScream on May 24, 2019, 08:23:22 AM

~snip~

If you're using a service that uses BitPay for accepting payments, you won't be able to do so anymore.

Use VPN. It's an old news I think. You can not open their wallet if you are from any of these country however there are always a way out :-P

As I said, use VPN :-)

By the way, I do not like to use BitPay. I feel like it's following paypal business model.

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We all know that banning bitcoin doesn't mean much as there is no mechanism to know who is using it, especially If it's being done peer to peer but it seems like BitPay took action and as of a few days back, the people from the following countries:

Quote

Algeria, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cambodia, Ecuador, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Morocco, Nepal, and Vietnam.

Can no longer use BitPay.

So, If you're using a service that uses BitPay for accepting payments (Newegg, Shipito, etc.), you won't be able to do so anymore.

As said below, using a VPN would be a workaround, however you should make sure that it's fine by the service you're using. For example, Shipito has your address and knows the country you're from, you don't want to deposit money and then have it forzen.

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