Topic: Bitvavo: is it safe? (Read 165 times)

I wouldn't pay too much attention to it. Future price speculation and how certain events can affect bitcoin are exactly that, speculation. I read that another big bank somewhere is crashing and that's the reason for the current BTC spike. The thing is, it's only worth something if you know this information before it happens. For example, if you had insider information that the bank's stock is crashing. Reading about it in the news hours later is often too late to profit from it if that is our goal. The ship has sailed.

Transactions are signed with individual private keys, not a seed. Don't confuse your Ledger seed with the one for your Bisq wallet. You are not supposed to import your Ledger seed into Bisq or anywhere else. You create a new wallet and generate a new seed on Bisq. That's the hot wallet where you need to deposit your funds to be able to trade. When you start an exchange, you must transfer the correct sum into a multi-sig address, which requires signatures from you and the opposite party if the deal was successful. All of that happens in the background, you just confirm everything is ok, so don't worry. RickDeckard again explained how it's done in writing, but watching the videos is even better.   

Regarding the $25k that you mentioned, I wouldn't recommend you transferring all at once. As a new Bisq user, there will be trading limits on your account. You can't buy or sell for $25k as a beginner until your account ages.

Bisq is not a rocket science, especially not for a medicine student like you so you should be all right if you decide to give it a try. The only thing that you have to be aware of is that you will need some bitcoin as a deposit in order to do any trade on Bisq and you will have to be patient as it may take days for buy orders to go through.


Who says that you have to transfer 25k in one go? You can start slow with few hundreds of dollars just to check how it works and once you feel more comfortable you can increase the amount. On top of that, if you try to buy $25k worth of Bitcoin in one go, you will seriously overpay it.


Don't mind fund managers and infuencers, none of them really knows what will happen next. And yes, if you are unsure about buying 1 whole bitcoin, DCA is a very good alternative.

This is very useful. Thanks a lot.
And I believe that Bisq is better for people who are handy with it.
But it keeps bothering me that I would transfer 25k savings to an entity I don't have experience with, or know people personally to have experience with.
In the event of any future issues, I'd be left alone.

Some people suggested to transfer money to Bitvavo, and from there to Binance. (and from Binance to the ledger)
I know it is centralized but I feel more comfortable with it. The government can develop harsh tax laws as an attack on BTC. But I can (and I will) report my ledger as stolen (and seed phrase as lost) and I don't see how they can legally tax someone on a lost asset. I also don't do anything illegal by transfering fiat to Bitvavo now.
Once my BTC is on the ledger, they can not deny my access to the blockchain by blocking my BTC address, if I understood it correctly. If they ever really come after me I will just transfer my BTC on the "stolen ledger" to my wife or to someone else I can trust. In fact I already know for sure that any conversion of BTC to currency will be very heavily taxed in Europe, regardless if it was bought on a a CEX or DEX.

For example in my country there is a 50% income tax. If BTC spikes to 100k next year and I would ever withdraw it to a European account, I would be exposed to the national taxes and see half of the profit disappear. I am just never going to withdraw to any account here.

If the hedge fund managers I respect and follow are correct, we are right in front of a BTC Tsunami and I would really hit myself in the head if it goes up drastically from here before I can invest (I have 3 very busy weeks now). The current price point is already a questionable one for me to buy 1 full BTC. It is probably wiser to go for half a BTC now (that would already be 3 deposits of 5k, which would take more than a week if the bank does not stop them), and DCA from there.

Too many things have to happen now and there is just no time.

In the previous video that I've shared you can follow a transaction example starting here[1]. The steps are quite straightforward:

• You transfer funds either from your Bisq wallet or an address of yours to an address provided by Bisq - This will act as a security deposit which will return to you if everything goes OK with the transaction;
• After 1 blockchain confirmation you'll be presented with the payment information - in this example the sellers bank account information[2] - which you will have to use in order to pay for your BTC (assuming you've chosen a bank transfer for this transaction);
• After making the order transfer on your bank just select "Payment started" on the transaction window in Bisq and now you'll just have to wait for the seller to confirm receiving the funds in order for the bitcoin to be released to you. Remember that both parties deposited a security fund to ensure that no side is left "hanging" during the transaction.

The only concept of "signing" that I know in Bisq is "Account signing"[3] but that doesn't apply to transactions but instead to the maximum trade size that you can execute on Bisq (per transaction). When you create a new account you'll be limited to 0.01 BTC per trade, and that limit will only be lifted when you get your account signed, which happens when the following conditions are met[3]:
The per-trade limit varies depending on the payment method that you choose[4] and whenever you choose a different named payment method, for example changing from a SEPA signed account to Paysera, you'll have to make meet the previous requirements in order to sign your Paysera account.

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[1]https://youtu.be/4LyEKA5Iq9I?t=1203
[2]https://youtu.be/4LyEKA5Iq9I?t=1376
[3]https://bisq.wiki/Account_limits#Account_signing
[4]https://bisq.wiki/Payment_methods#Fiat_payment_methods

Bisq is one thing. Transfering the BTC to my ledger in a safe way is the other. I want to take my time for it but I don't have any. Ask me anything about anatomy, physiology or whatever. But with regards to computers and safety I'm no good.
There must be a section of the forum in which traders discuss important events, affecting BTC's price. The government attacking DeFi (bearish), the banking crisis (extremely bullish), the federal government raising intrest rates (bullish).

But that is a full time job.
I saw a youtube video of a guy using bisq. Can you tell me if he had to sign the transaction with a code generated by bisq, or with his seed phrase that he had to enter online? I had no time to double check. I swore that I would never type my seed phrase online, even if it is to sign a transaction. It will only be handwritten and confirmed on my ledger device.

P2P as in face-to-face deals or using decentralized exchanges and services without middlemen?
RickDeckard mentioned Bisq because it's the most prominent Bitcoin DEX. It's not that difficult, considering that every single thing you need to know is explained with video and written tutorials. 1-2 hours of watching and reading their docs, and you will know everything there is to it. After that, you just need to get used to the slower way of trading instead of the 1-click button deals on CEXs.

A medical student won't have difficulties to understand how to work Bisq correctly. I am sure of it.

Do take whatever analysis you read with a grain of salt. Personally I don't support the usual financial interpretation of charts in the usual financial world because it looks like financial astrology to me. Past performance will never dictate how the future will look like and a great example of it was the small recession that hit the markets when COVID hit. I've got a great respect for the people that dedicate their life to the finance world and trying to beat the market but do remember this[1]:
If people that live for this aren't able to figure out the behaviour of the market, why on Earth would they figure out the market for bitcoin? Surely if they keep saying that the market will rise they will eventually get it right, but that shouldn't be seen as "they read the market right". Take things slowly and get bitcoin whenever you feel like you are ready to dedicate some time studying the concepts behind it. I'm sure you'll find it very interesting  .

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[1]https://www.justetf.com/uk/news/passive-investing/the-proof-that-active-managers-cannot-beat-the-market.html

I would like to switch to P2P, but that takes education. I am currently in 3 weeks of heavy studying/midterms for osteopathic medicine and there is no time until may 15th. On the other hand, many reputable hedge fund managers I have been following (I like Mark Yusco for his thorough analyses) for a long time are saying that the current macroeconomic environment/ US banking crisis will lead to a sharp spike in BTC price. I've often heard that this is likely to happen within the next month.

Moving my fiat to BTC will have to happen gradually or my bank will just block the transactions. I really hope that the analysts are wrong and nothing really happens before the next halving in 2024.

I know a couple of people that use Bitvavo and they never had major problems with the exchange. It's a medium sized exchange - the 24h spot trading volume is sitting at ~ 1,933 BTC[1] - and was born in 2018 in Amsterdam (it is a Dutch company), having around 1M+ clients in their platform[2]. This exchange gained some traction when BTC prices were hitting all time heights (~60k) and where almost every exchange was having trouble or restricting selling/buying bitcoin during those times, Bitvavo managed to simply work. Given that it wasn't very well know at the time, it was able to attract a lot of users that were simply looking to hop in the Bitcoin train since everyone was talking about it at the time.

However, while the couple of people that I know still use it (albeit my failed efforts to convince them to switch to P2P), the platform recently had some liquidity issues - as I've previously mentioned and this is never good news I suppose, hence my recommendations to OP to focus in other solutions.

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[1]https://coinmarketcap.com/exchanges/bitvavo/
[2]https://bitvavo.com/en/about

The same thing could happen if you managed to buy bitcoin via Binance so I don't see how this is suddenly a problem. Having said that, I never even heard about this Bitvavo and if I were you I would try to find some more reputable exchange/platform to buy bitcoin.



Well you have to figure it out by yourself first what's exactly most important for you and then proceed accordingly.

Okay, then I assume that this is also how it will appear in my regular bank's transaction history.
That said, they are very likely to flag this transaction as "suspicious" especially when they see me moving 20k in one month.
It is practically a given that the bank will block more transactions, and contact me demanding justification. I expect to be flagged.
They treat my money as if it is theirs.

After my last contact with the bank (I asked why my transaction was denied) the clerk suggested that we sat down to discuss investments to combat the inflation.
This is BS of course and I am not interested in it. He also insisted to sell me a pension plan. I wish to secure my retirement income by owning real estate and making rental income. I do not believe that the government will ever pay me a decent pension.

They just don't want any liquidity to leave them and they are prepared to label me a terrorist because I invest in something that is out of their power.
I'm pretty sure that this will eventually happen.

Indeed, if I were to say one of the deltas that Bisq has is the initial learning curve to use the program but that happens in any new software that you have to interact with (within various degrees of usability). This video[1] is a good entry tutorial for anyone that is wondering how to use Bisq and I tend to recommend it to newcomers to the platform as well. You also have this video from Bisq[2] and their getting started wiki page[3].

You will never transfer any kind of money to Bisq as it only acts as a place where buyers and sellers meet (sort of). The exchange (fiat<->cryptocurrency) happens between the users themselves, and Bisq only acts as a agent that facilitates the trade (as matching buy/sell orders). In essence, assuming you want to buy bitcoin, you'll send directly the funds to the sellers bank account. Regarding security for both the seller and buyer, Bisq has three mechanisms employed[2]:

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[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LyEKA5Iq9I
[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDkzUl9wibc
[3]https://bisq.network/getting-started/

I saw a video about Bisq, but again there is a learning curve.
I do not feel comfortable transfering 5k to a platform I have never used and I don't know the pitfalls of.

I could start with $10 yes.

I never heard of Bitvavo exchange I tried to search on the forum and it was mentioned here but in the local section under Nederlands.
I translated them but it looks like most of the posts are clearly promoting this exchange.

I don't think it is safe to use so if I were you better avoid this exchange and use a P2P exchange like RickDeckard mentioned above or optional look for Bitcoin ATM near you.

Check this map below to find your location and maybe there are some Bitcoin ATMs near your location.

- https://coinatmradar.com/

There is some irony in banks preventing their clients to use their own money, but that's a story for another time. OP if I were you I wouldn't want to go forward with any CEX due to the usual reasons, mostly related with KYC procedures and your privacy (and your coins privacy) falling into the hands of these corporations. If I were you I would instead choose to make my cryptocurrency purchases in any of the DEX listed here[1] such as:

• Bisq[2]
• AgoraDesk[3]
• Peach Bitcoin[4] (No browser, mobile only app)
• RoboSats[5]

A word of warning: Some months ago Bitvavo had some liquidity issues[6][7] so proceed with caution if you still decide that you want to go forward with it (then again, please don't if you care about YOUR privacy). If you do decide to go forward with the previous solutions suggested[1], there won't be any problem with the government asking these companies about your bitcoin trades since there is no central entity to ask this information to (hence the concept of P2p).

PS: Whenever you can, you should change your thread to the right section of the forum - Exchanges[8].

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[1]https://kycnot.me/
[2]https://bisq.network/
[3]https://agoradesk.com/
[4]https://peachbitcoin.com/
[5]http://robosats6tkf3eva7x2voqso3a5wcorsnw34jveyxfqi2fu7oyheasid.onion/
[6]https://nltimes.nl/2023/02/07/bitvavo-crypto-exchange-strikes-deal-recover-80-100-clients-missing-assets
[7]https://safereddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10l63s7/bitvavo_the_end_is_near_this_doesnt_look_pretty/
[8]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=223.0

My local bank declined my first payment to Binance. It was a 5k transfer and it was sent back 1 day later.
The Binance notification suggested that I contacted my bank. I asked them. Neither the local office nor the higher one knew why it was declined.
It had been on the account (in Luxemburg, Europe) for a while but it was taken out by "banking circle"

So I joined a crypto group on facebook with an anonymous nickname.
I was suggested to use Bitvavo, which is a broker located in Amsterdam. There would be no problems with them, I was told.

I know them from the past but their terms and conditions were full of errors, and there were some things I just did not like. A few years ago it said that we could only transfer crypto to European banks, if I recall it correctly.

I just read terms and conditions again and I find it highly questionable

Legal uncertainty

The market, technology and legal framework for Digital Assets is new and uncertain. Bitvavo’s Services operate in a partly regulated field of law. The Service may be subject to changes or even termination as laws and regulations develop.

The legal classification of (certain) Digital Assets may not be clear and may vary under the laws of different jurisdictions throughout the world. How a Digital Asset qualifies legally and what consequences this has to a User’s rights to the Funds may vary per jurisdiction.

The legality of the Services in a specific jurisdiction may be uncertain. User is responsible for knowing and understanding how Digital Assets and the Services to these Digital assets will be addressed, regulated and taxed under the laws as applicable to User.

...

Tax risks
The current tax treatment of the Services has not been conclusively clarified and may also depend on the individual tax treatment of a User. It cannot be ruled out that the tax authorities and courts may adjust or change previous tax assessments on the treatment of income related to the Services.

I think if I buy here and the government launches an attack on crypto, Bitvavo will comply and tell them everything I bought. I could be exposed to completely unfair taxation. I don't know if changes in tax law will mean that buying crypto on an exchange will directly involve a tax. In that case I would be lucky to buy it before the tax law is there. Or the development of a tax law could include that Bitvavo is forced to inform the government about my purchase, and I could get in trouble later on. I don't know.

Do you share my concerns or is this inevitable?

I heard about decentralized exchanges without KYC. But I am a beginner and these are relatively large sums. On one hand I like the regulation for safety reasons. On the other hand I don't like it for government compliance