Topic: BLACKROCK SPOT ETF DISCUSSION (Read 260 times)

Institutional investors are market makers and manipulators. Bitcoin Spot ETFs will bring more institutional investors into Bitcoin market and they will do their manipulation games, more than now.

They like Bitcoin Spot EFTs because they don't want to hold bitcoin by themselves and because they are familiar with capital management and investments through ETFs. I hope they will not learn any big lessons from losing coins because they don't buy bitcoin and don't own private keys.

Manipulations exist in all markets and Bitcoin market has less strict regulations on other markets so manipulation in this market should be more easily for whales, institutional investors. It is more easily for them to manipulate the market because the marketcap is smaller than other markets which they already manipulated successfully.

Sure, but existence of ETF doesn't prevent anyone from buying and holding actual bitcoins. ETF is designed for institutional investors or for those who, for whatever reason, don't want to hold it themselves. And we all know that ensuring that our private keys are created and stored securely is not an easy task.
I wouldn't recommend anyone, who got into bitcoin just to trade it, to keep their coins themselves. The risk of losing them would be greater than with keeping them in an insured (I assume) ETF.


I don't think there's anything that prevents big whales from manipulating BTC price currently, so I don't expect introduction of the spot ETF would increase that risk.
The higher the volume, the less volatility. Not being able to experience another x1000 pump might sound bad at first, but it's a god thing in a long run. Due to it's nature BTC should still be steadily increasing in value and become more of a solid store of value than a high-risk-high-yield asset.



How exactly? In theory, nothing changes in that regard. Except maybe that with greater value, there's a greater incentive for governments (or other players) to try to highjack i.e. by co-opting devs and miners.

I am sure that by now, crypto enthusiasts and supporters can see be the bright side and the dark side of ETF. In terms of benefits to the market, there is that excitement because of the big possibility for the price of BTC - and even alts - to go to the roof. And this can be good news to many but beyond this euphoria we can soon see the many disadvantages as the market will now be under the strong influence of big financial institutions which Satoshi Nakamoto had been wary about. Anyway, let's just continue watching and even enjoy the ride...take part of the celebratory party without closing our eyes to the things happening behind the scenes.

I had the same question too. It would be impossible to see them hijack all the nodes and control the majority of the mining power.


As long as they don't attempt to alter the governance of the network by any means, it's a fair deal in my opinion. ETF has always been desired for Bitcoin for as long as I can remember and the previous ones were not approved but this time being spearheaded by Blackrock.  Let's hope it gets approved and no adverse effect on Bitcoin.

Many people say they don’t want Blackrock anywhere near bitcoin but if they even manage to convince their investors to put 5% of the total value of assets under their stewardship it will do wonders for the bitcoin price. We are all for self sovereignty but come on, the reason most of us got into this game was for financial freedom & to be wealthy. I am happy to let Blackrock have 20% of my coins for $200,000 each.

Well i think i have to find that source in which i read that, people shifted to DEXs to trade there assets. And you said why would people shift to DEXs to hold for longer period of time. I didn't say they sifted to DEXs for holding purposes and i also didn't say in the first place that they are using CEXs for holding purposes. They are using CEXs for trading purposes and they will migrate to DEXs for trading purpose also. And only Binance and Coinbase was sued so other CEXs were also working. 

And you also asked to which dexs they will turn. There are a lot of dexs such as Bisq, Robosats and peachbitcoin etc. There are many other on the list but these might be enough for your understanding.

Well bro, Let me ask you which DEX will people use for buying and selling BTC? CEX are easy method of buying and selling through Fiat. Using P2P banned countries can also buy btc. In case of big exchange Sued and giving alternative most of these fund will be transferred to ETF because big traders will never like to just hold in dex for long term. Big traders will be looking for daily profit and ETF will be best alternative for these users.


I agree with you, This approval will bring pump in btc price for short times because many new big institute will also apply for ETF but in the long term it results is horrible.


BlackRock assets are almost 10 time bigger than crypto market. let suppose five year later 70% btc traders using ETF for trading purpose and Blackrock have power to print btc etf paper as much as they can because no one could audit Blackrock. Now if price rising and they short big amount. what will happen? without hijacking nodes and miners, Blackrock able to control btc price.

I understood your concerns but i think the data you have showed of centralized and decentralized is of today but you should compare the data when the Binance and Coinbase was sued. At that time, a huge amount of money was shifted towards DEXs. I had a good source link butt currently i am unable to find. While i was writing my reply i tried to find the source link then too but didn't found.

Well, another thing which i compared regular customer and ETFs, i also meant to same because i do know the industry of ETFs is huge and if the block-rock got approval they will be trade-able on nasdaq which will boost the adoption of BTC. Means to say, yeah i agree that the comparison between crypto user and other trading like forex, stock users is huge.

1) I don't know why you think the SEC is favoring approving the Blackrock ETF. They are very clearly going to reject it just like they've rejected every other BTC ETF proposal. I don't understand why people are so hyped over Blackrock. The head of the SEC hates Bitcoin. This ETF will not get approved. As long as Gensler is head of the SEC there won't be any Bitcoin ETFs. I can't even imagine where you got the idea that the SEC is favoring approving Blackrock's ETF. The only statements the SEC and Gensler have made thus far about that application have been negative. There is no double gaming, the SEC is very anti-Bitcoin and anti-crypto. It is a very obvious single-sided straightforward game they are playing.

In terms of the cons:

1) Anyone can still own Bitcoin. Only the people who don't want to own Bitcoin but want to use it purely as an investment property will buy the ETF. I don't see any problem in this. Sure none of those people will be 'using' Bitcoin, but it'll still increase adoption of bitcoin as a financial asset, which will increase the price of Bitcoin, which will get more people interested in Bitcoin, which will increase adoption of Bitcoin more generally, including people who want to actually own and use Bitcoin.

2) You don't seem to understand what an ETF is. An ETF is not a financial firm trading Bitcoin (and thus being able to dump it whenever they want). An ETF is a firm buying Bitcoin on behalf of their clients. The firm cannot just dump the Bitcoin in the ETF to keep the price stable. The people who invest in the ETF would have to sell their ETF shares for the firm to sell that amount of Bitcoin tied up in the ETF. Has nothing to do with the price appreciation of Gold.

3) Don't see how you are going from an ETF existing to Bitcoin not being decentralized and the government controlling it haha. I can't even imagine how you made that leap of fantasy, but an ETF has nothing at all to do with Bitcoin's decentralization or govt controlling it.

4) I keep seeing this idea of Blackrock forking Bitcoin. I don't know where this idea comes from. Did Blackrock say something about forking? Regardless, Blackrock has no more nor no less ability to fork Bitcoin than anyone else - meaning sure they can do a useless fork and create an altcoin like anyone can, but nobody can fork Bitcoin away from itself, so I don't see where their fear comes from. Nothing about a financial firm having an ETF has anything to do with being able to fork Bitcoin away from itself.



That should pretty much dispell all of your concerns. But anyway, the Blackrock ETF is obviously going to get rejected and there won't be an ETF approved until Gensler is gone from the SEC which is 3-4 years from now so all this talk about ETF's is kinda silly and no different than all the other times people got excited for ETFs over the past five years.

I haven't observed any substantial impact on the price of Bitcoin in the past when a Bitcoin ETF was approved. The price surge is usually short-lived and quickly returns to normal. These pumps are not a result of the ETF itself, as they don't necessarily lead to an increase in actual Bitcoin holders. Instead, they are driven by hype and the fear of missing out (FOMO). Therefore, I don't feel excited or have high expectations for the Blackrock ETF

Are you really comparing the ETF's Investment relatable to the regular crypto user's investments, like really? Regular investors like me and you or if we consider the retailers as well can bring 20x t 30x more investment compared to regular pro-crypto investors or it can be higher as well, but the ETFs are for the institutional investment can you just imagine how much capital it would be even if all these ETF's get approved from their total capital 1% just 1& can make the market jump to new ATH.

Buddy first of all understands the motive of ETF's than the capital potential..


Here you are wrong I know many users moved on, but buddy it was not that much change the regular trader is still sticking to the Centralized exchanges because still there are a lot of developments needed on DEXs to attract the extensive users as trading fees Blockchain traffic etc etc. For just an overview just have a look at the stats of the Cex's volume and Dex's volume



I know Dex's are the future but it needs time at least in the current market it needs a lot of time to gain trust.

ETF are not for average joe to invest their personal savings. thats what hoarding bitcoin is for.
ETF are for peoples employment pension funds to be invested in. you know the stash of money they cant touch for 40 years but just dont want it sitting in some bank account losing value due to fiat inflation.
putting their pension pots into bitcoin can raise them out of poverty when its time to retire, if done right


however even though people scream $10trill company.. that company diversifies its portfolio into hundreds of investments. thus i would say bitcoin would only be a 1-5% of the companies assets. so think about $100b not $10trill being used to buy up bitcoins.. but not all at the same time

While we'd have to admit that the proposal is quite cool and novel, because it paves a way for Bitcoin as other traditional financial institutions like the banks can use these spot Bitcoin ETFs to help increase their exposure and help financial advisors who have been previously hesitant about the market to help clients who are interested in allocating their funds to Bitcoin, but it's still better to hold Bitcoin in self custody.

Inasmuch as these spot ETFs are important, they still do not protect against market manipulation and government interference so it's still the same thing to me.

when the price spikes.. blackrock customers wont sell bitcoin. they will sell shares.
yes some of the agents (basket managers) managing the shares<>coin may if enough shares are sold back to the agents then dismantle a basket (aka sell the coin) but in most cases selling shares is from one blackrock customer to another blackrock customer, not sold back to the agent. the only way blackrock agents can dismantle a basket and sell the coins allotted to a basket is if those shares are sold back to the agents instead of the usual scheme which is just changing ownership between customers
in short blackrock agents themselves have to buy the shares from customers to break a basket. and usually they wont do that





read the filing. they will choose the fork that best represents what the whole wide community follows, based on merchant acceptance, the network core develop on and highest hashrate.. aswell as other things.. so calm down

It is Bitcoin Spot ETF. The community expect to have a first Bitcoin Spot ETF but there are many Bitcoin Futures ETFs. They hope high because logically Spot ETF is safer than Futures ETF.

They believe that with Bitcoin Spot ETF, more investors, instutional ones from traditional markets will use their capital more easily and flexibly to make investment with Spot ETFs and increase total capital in Bitcoin and cryptocurrency market. It is their style but retail investors, individual investors must be more careful. We can not join Bitcoin Spot ETFs with small capital and we mus lt aware that they will not give us bitcoin. If we need bitcoin, buy it on market and don't buy shares from Bitcoin Spot ETFs.

We are interested in their attention to bitcoin as a bullish driver, and when that turns out to be true I believe the development is quite strong, the game of the big players. The financial background is different from the mindset of retail investors like us, I remember stories about some institutional funds that bought bitcoin in the past but looking back at the number of holdings compared to the market size. market is very low, but a psychological game that is easily manipulated from the crowd when FOMO or selling is always easy to be manipulated by the news especially in a market that is still quite small like crypto.

You made some sense there, government have tried to control, fight and halt Bitcoin but have failed several time because the decentralized nature makes it difficult to do so, going after Binance and Coinbase and likely accepting the Blackrock ETF proposal indeed looks like a double game.



Bitcoin has been dumped several times but later absorb the pressure and recovered, so even without Bitcoin ETF there is no guarantee that Bitcoin will continue to increase in price without dumping at some juncture, in this case,e is normal.
They can manipulate the price by owing Spot ETF but the good news is that the real Bitcoin isn't in their hands.

Bitcoin spot ETF is not a push for bitcoin itself or a call for its adoption neither, these people are just making use of bitcoin price statistics and it's volatility to determine their investment assets and shares their investors are taking into consideration with making business with them, this will make no change to the price or the bitcoin network as a matter of urgency, no significant difference is going to take place to the bitcoin network, they are just using bitcoin price to peg their assets values.


There's no corperate business and organizations that is unaware of bitcoin in every corperate settings, bitcoin has gone viral beyond it was promoted or campaigned for, part of such awareness is what is encouraging financial institutions and service providers make provisions for spot bitcoin ETF for their investors to have their bonds peg with bitcoin price, so these pros are to their advantages and not the cryptocurrency or bitcoin network.


Spot Bitcoin ETF is not Bitcoin, they are only making their investment asset pegged down with bitcoin price considering it volatility and some of their investors who will be interested in making an investment with them by securing their asset on bitcoin price or value, so how does this also have a negative impact on bitcoiners or the bitcoin network and it price volatility.

Yeah, this is obvious. They don't like the idea of people buying Bitcoin of p2p exchanges or some "uncooperative" centralized exchanges and keeping it in their non-custodial wallets (self-custody)
They also don't like people using Bitcoin as an alternative payment system or investment option

So now they want to bring in fake exchange tradable funds that people can buy under their watch.

I don't see this as an advantage. What's the point of traders being aware of Bitcoin if they won't even use it as it was intended? All they will be looking at is the price and the actual way it works.

How?

By hijacking all the nodes and miners?

Sometimes I feel like these big funds are dangerous for Bitcoin as it wasn't made for them to buy and make it in ETFs and sell it to people when they can already buy it directly and acquire bits by mining. I understand the cost to mine in 2023 is not as compared of what it was in 2009 however buying ETFs to acquire Bitcoin is stupid in my very honest opinion. If it brings that 1o Trillion Dollars to Bitcoin Marketcap, that will be amazing. If not, it's not that big of a deal. Any big venture can directly buy from OTC like Coinbase and Binance.

I think someone will get very hurt. This is the pattern, many people buy shares and bitcoin goes through the roof.

 Then someone goes to BlackRock and says... excuse me since you have a lot of BTC here, could you lend them to me to make a short?

 BlackRock: yes, they certainly aren't ours anyway... and we haven't taken any position.

 ( very ) Big Short

 Fear...

 The short closes.
 Ultra minimal BTC prices..

 Some Gentlemen are back from BlackRock, good evening, we are here to close the short and return the BTC you gave us.
 By paying a modest sum... will we be able to keep them?

 BlackRock: yes of course, given the amount for you the commissions are not 0.1% but 0.01%.

 Great, but you need to remove the ability to borrow BTC with trust assets.

You are totally right about double game, i had also wrote many times that they just want their rival to be out from the competition and by doing that they also want to get their users too. But i think by launching these ETFs they cannot get all of those users because most of the users had already moved to decentralized exchanges and wallets.

when they sued both Binance and coin base then the effected users moved to DEXs. Even when the SVB bank was bankrupted then the customers migrated to use of DEXs. so i do not think there would be left any to attract towards ETFs. but still many stock traders do want to invest in BTC ETFs plus those who are traditional traders and still didn't bought any BTC. Well, let's see what happen i think if Block Rock ETFs got accepted then we might see BTC at around $40k it's just my speculation. Like the yesterday news of XRP only put great positive impact on the market so i think Block Rock ETFs approval deserves to put more impact on the market.

BlackRock the world's largest asset(10 trillion funds) manager is interested in the Bitcoin Spot ETF. If we check the history of Blackrock track record then they have applied for 575 ETF and only one rejected previously. No one has power to stop Blackrock. I was watching video where one Youtuber claims that whenever the USA wants one country to go up they ask Blackrock to invest and vice versa l

The US is playing double gaming at this stage. At one side SEC Charges on Binance and Coinbase and on the other side SEC are in the favor of approving Blackrock spot ETF. Let go a little deep in this matter. When People Withdraw funds from both these  big exchanges then the trader will use this fund in other sources but the US doesn't want these funds to go off shore (out of the US). Now the US wanted an alternative system for crypto exchange so if anyone wants to invest in btc then instead of using crypto exchange, the alternative way of buying given to these traders. The block rock is looking the part of this plan and it looks like Blackrock has received any green signal from the US Government before applying. Blackrock wants, no exchange to survive in the US and traders choose ETF for investing because if people use exchange then they will withdraw BTC to own wallet(hard or soft) and US have no control on it but if they invest in ETF then then they have full control over it.

Pros:
If Blackrock is able to launch the Bitcoin ETF successfully, many of its competitors(JP MORGAN, Fidelity and many others) will also apply and then big Banks will also apply.

This will increase awareness of BTC among big traders because the stock media will share this

Many big traders which are already in the field of stock market and didn't has knowledge of crypto exchange will be able to buy btc

Highly chance of btc price pump in the short term.

Cons:
People will not hold real btc because ETFs could not be called real Bitcoin holders. Etf trader are not holding any btc in their wallet. An ETF is just a contract in the form of paper.

If prices increase then these big asset managers can dump the market to stable Price. This will decrease the interest of crypto users. In short the growth in price will be very slow just like gold

Bitcoin will not remain totally decentralized and the Government will be able to control it.

They also said that we will not be bound by the rules of Satoshi which he mentioned in whitepaper that's mean in case of Bitcoin fork they can choose any chain for their price backup.

What you think about this? Is Balckrock ETF should be approved

If it's approved, which platform(Crypto exchange or ETF) will you support and why?