Blockchain: List of nodes blockchain.info is connected to

timeshareafrica

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Quote from: gweedo on December 08, 2012, 10:09:33 AM

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 10:03:14 AM

So my point is: If blockchain.info running modified clients or bitcoind's they also should be able to alter a client in such a way that one can undermine the "priority to decide" and use it to jam the network.
So my rough guess is with 10000 BTC you could get some professionals which are able to alter the client and get the whole network down over a period of some time.
OR NOT ?

Can I just send you back to bitcoin grade school. THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER READ. GO READ ARTICLES ABOUT P2P SOFTWARE, THEN READ ABOUT BITCOIN, THEN COME BACK AND HERE AND SAY SORRY YOU FOOL. You clearly don't understand bitcoin and you are the first one that is jumping at this lame FUD attempt. They can't do any thing like that if the software is open source they want people to modify it.

CAN WE GET A NEWBIE TAG ON THIS DUDE HE SHOULDN"T BE ALLOWED TO POST AT ALL.

Sorry Gweedo I didnt try to make you angry or test you I just dont understand this stuff, I am not a programmer or IT guy.

timeshareafrica

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ok sounds like I halfway understand this.
I guess If one would like to know how many clients are running on the network one could estimate it by:
Hashrate say 22.692 Terahash / 6 big pools which make up 58 % of the total = 13.16 Terahash for all big pools the rest 9.52 Terahash / by ordanary (guessed) 3000 Megahash graphic card mining = 3173 normal graphic card miner so in total we would have round about 3173 clients running and the rest connects to the mining pool, if this is right?
Huh

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 12:15:50 PM

Quote from: DannyHamilton on December 08, 2012, 12:02:42 PM

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 11:26:09 AM

Hi Danny thanks for the info, what I still dont understand is how does blockchain.info know how many nodes are connected to the bitcoin network?

If you are talking about the list at:
http://blockchain.info/ip-log

Then I think you are misunderstanding what that list is. It is not a list of all the nodes currently connected to the bitcoin network.

As described at the top of the page:

Quote

List of bitcoin nodes blockchain.info has connected to in the past.

Hi Danny I rather mean the http://blockchain.info/de/connected-nodes

In that case, those would be the IP addresses of the nodes that blockchain.info's clients are currently connected to. Again, there may be many nodes that are not connected directly to blockchain.info, and therefore they will not show up in that list. They could be getting this information from a modified client, but they could jsut as easily be getting it from networking related logs on their systems.

timeshareafrica

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Quote from: DannyHamilton on December 08, 2012, 12:02:42 PM

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 11:26:09 AM

Hi Danny thanks for the info, what I still dont understand is how does blockchain.info know how many nodes are connected to the bitcoin network?

If you are talking about the list at:
http://blockchain.info/ip-log

Then I think you are misunderstanding what that list is. It is not a list of all the nodes currently connected to the bitcoin network.

As described at the top of the page:

Quote

List of bitcoin nodes blockchain.info has connected to in the past.

Hi Danny I rather mean the http://blockchain.info/de/connected-nodes

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 11:26:09 AM

Hi Danny thanks for the info, what I still dont understand is how does blockchain.info know how many nodes are connected to the bitcoin network?

If you are talking about the list at:
http://blockchain.info/ip-log

Then I think you are misunderstanding what that list is. It is not a list of all the nodes currently connected to the bitcoin network.

As described at the top of the page:

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 11:26:09 AM

Is there any information in the addr.dat file about ip addresses which are connected or are there commands which can be used on the command line which show how many nodes are connected?

For the entire network? Not that I know of (If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will stop by this discussion and correct me). blockchain.info might have created a modified client that provides them a list of IP addresses of connected peers, but it is also possible that they are just looking at the logs from their firewall or routers to determine what IP addresses are connecting into their network on the necessary ports.

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 11:26:09 AM

How could anyone know how many bitcoin clients are connected to the global network at any time?

It may be possible to make an educated guess, but I don't know if you can get a reliable number.

gweedo

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Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 11:26:09 AM

Hi Danny thanks for the info, what I still dont understand is how does blockchain.info know how many nodes are connected to the bitcoin network? Is there any information in the addr.dat file about ip addresses which are connected or are there commands which can be used on the command line which show how many nodes are connected?
How could anyone know how many bitcoin clients are connected to the global network at any time?
Thanks

It is how many nodes are connected to blockchain.info! IT CAN NEVER GET ALL THE NODES IN THE WORLD THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, this was explained above

and to see the ip's of the nodes you are connected to you need to modify the bitcoin-qt or bitcoind applications

timeshareafrica

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Hi Danny thanks for the info, what I still dont understand is how does blockchain.info know how many nodes are connected to the bitcoin network? Is there any information in the addr.dat file about ip addresses which are connected or are there commands which can be used on the command line which show how many nodes are connected?
How could anyone know how many bitcoin clients are connected to the global network at any time?
Thanks

DannyHamilton

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Merit: 4801

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: Gabi on December 08, 2012, 07:53:47 AM

Quote

if they are running a modified bitcoind than I would start to worry about my BTC's

Why? Stop spreading FUD, thank you.

. . . If you look at a earlyer post of mine called "Bitcoin transactions and fatty acids" it says there:

Is there a way to bring down or slow down the Bitcoin network by producing very long transactions by sending small ammounts of BTC from one client to another one or even set up a botnet to send transactions to make them longer so that in the long run the network will be clocked up like a person who had to many long chained fatty acids to eat his whole life and suddenly dies because his arteries are clogged up . . .

. . . Kjj replied:
It would be expensive to do this.

The network uses a calculation called priority to decide if it should relay your transaction without requiring a fee . . .

. . . So my point is: If blockchain.info running modified clients or bitcoind's they also should be able to alter a client in such a way that one can undermine the "priority to decide" and use it to jam the network.
So my rough guess is with 10000 BTC you could get some professionals which are able to alter the client and get the whole network down over a period of some time.
OR NOT ?

Clearly gweedo's response is a bit hostile.

What you need to understand is that blockchain.info isn't changing the client that you are running (or the client that anyone else is running), only the clients that they are running. So if they try to have their clients send out a huge number of transactions, then all the clients that they are connected to will refuse to relay the transactions they are sending protecting the rest of the network.

Bitcoin is open source, so anyone can modify the client that they run in any way they like. This is how we end up with additional clients such as Electrum and Armory. But the protocol doesn't change. Any modified client has to communicate via a specific protocol with all the clients that it connects to or the other clients will simply ignore or not understand what the modified client is saying/doing. As long as your client sticks to the defined protocol, you can modify it to do anything else you like.

timeshareafrica

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Quote from: gweedo on December 08, 2012, 10:09:33 AM

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 10:03:14 AM

So my point is: If blockchain.info running modified clients or bitcoind's they also should be able to alter a client in such a way that one can undermine the "priority to decide" and use it to jam the network.
So my rough guess is with 10000 BTC you could get some professionals which are able to alter the client and get the whole network down over a period of some time.
OR NOT ?

Can I just send you back to bitcoin grade school. THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER READ. GO READ ARTICLES ABOUT P2P SOFTWARE, THEN READ ABOUT BITCOIN, THEN COME BACK AND HERE AND SAY SORRY YOU FOOL. You clearly don't understand bitcoin and you are the first one that is jumping at this lame FUD attempt. They can't do any thing like that if the software is open source they want people to modify it.

CAN WE GET A NEWBIE TAG ON THIS DUDE HE SHOULDN"T BE ALLOWED TO POST AT ALL.

Hi gweedo this is why I posted this article in the newbies section, sorry.

gweedo

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Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 10:03:14 AM

So my point is: If blockchain.info running modified clients or bitcoind's they also should be able to alter a client in such a way that one can undermine the "priority to decide" and use it to jam the network.
So my rough guess is with 10000 BTC you could get some professionals which are able to alter the client and get the whole network down over a period of some time.
OR NOT ?

Can I just send you back to bitcoin grade school. THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER READ. GO READ ARTICLES ABOUT P2P SOFTWARE, THEN READ ABOUT BITCOIN, THEN COME BACK AND HERE AND SAY SORRY YOU FOOL. You clearly don't understand bitcoin and you are the first one that is jumping at this lame FUD attempt. They can't do any thing like that if the software is open source they want people to modify it.

CAN WE GET A NEWBIE TAG ON THIS DUDE HE SHOULDN"T BE ALLOWED TO POST AT ALL.

timeshareafrica

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Activity: 121

Merit: 100

Quote from: Gabi on December 08, 2012, 07:53:47 AM

Quote

if they are running a modified bitcoind than I would start to worry about my BTC's

Why? Stop spreading FUD, thank you.

Hi Gabi

First at all I am not spreadding FUD s all over the place I just dont want a good idea beeing destroyed because all in a sudden someone realized there is a weak spot in the bitcoind which someone forgotten to mention and one morning the network is not working anymore because of this!

Second WHY?
If you look at a earlyer post of mine called "Bitcoin transactions and fatty acids" it says there:

Is there a way to bring down or slow down the Bitcoin network by producing very long transactions by sending small ammounts of BTC from one client to another one or even set up a botnet to send transactions to make them longer so that in the long run the network will be clocked up like a person who had to many long chained fatty acids to eat his whole life and suddenly dies because his arteries are clogged up.
For example with the
sendmany {address:amount,...} [minconf=1] [comment]
command and some script?

Kjj replied:
It would be expensive to do this.

The network uses a calculation called priority to decide if it should relay your transaction without requiring a fee. The basic idea is that a simple transaction takes about 250 bytes, and "1 BTC that is 1 day old" is a good rule of thumb. So, we look at each of your inputs and calculate the amount in BTC times the number of confirmations, and add those up. Then we divide by the size of the total transaction, and if the ratio of BTC-days to bytes is worse than 1:250, we don't relay it until it has aged enough to make that ratio true.* The standard behavior for mining is then to do the same calculation to decide if that transaction should be included in the next block candidate created. **

So, if you are redeeming a 1 BTC input that has 1500 confirmations, most of the network will accept it with no fee up to about 2500 bytes, (very) roughly 10 outputs. But then each of those outputs will be 0.1 BTC, and you won't be able to send them for free until 10 more days have passed. If you need to move them faster, you can do so, but not for free, you need to include a fee in your transaction.

Spamming the network in this way very quickly becomes too costly to do.

* nodes running different software, or that have been modified, will do this differently. Some nodes relay everything on principle.
** nodes running different software, or that have been modified, will do this differently. Some nodes mine

So my point is: If blockchain.info running modified clients or bitcoind's they also should be able to alter a client in such a way that one can undermine the "priority to decide" and use it to jam the network.
So my rough guess is with 10000 BTC you could get some professionals which are able to alter the client and get the whole network down over a period of some time.
OR NOT ?

gweedo

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Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 08, 2012, 07:26:12 AM

Seems to me this people from blockchain.info know a little bit more than the rest of us, if they are running a modified bitcoind than I would start to worry about my BTC's.

Just cause there bitcoind gives you more information? All they did was add things so they could get more information then us, nothing really that crazy.

Deafboy

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There is no need to worry. Nobody can touch your bitcoins just by running some software. You always need the private keys from your wallet to move your bitcoins. Doesn't meter what software you are using to do so.
This is how bitcoin transatios works: http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/06Bitcoin-1338412974774.jpg
And remember that all nodes (yours included) can connect to any other node on the network.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Quote

if they are running a modified bitcoind than I would start to worry about my BTC's

Why? Stop spreading FUD, thank you.

timeshareafrica

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Seems to me this people from blockchain.info know a little bit more than the rest of us, if they are running a modified bitcoind than I would start to worry about my BTC's.

gweedo

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Quote from: Stephen Gornick on December 07, 2012, 06:41:11 PM

Quote from: gweedo on December 07, 2012, 05:47:26 PM

as it states the list of nodes that blockchain.info's bitcoind is connected too. You can't see all globally running bitcoin clients

I don't even know that Blockchain.info needs to be able to connect to it to list it. If node A connects to node B, node B would share the IP for Node A, but node A doesn't necessary need to allow an incoming connection. And thus if Blockchain.info's node learned of node A through node A it might list it even though it cannot connect to it.

I don't know if they are doing that, and doing so would make it trivially easy to pollute Blockchain.info's list of nodes.

On there site they say "Connected nodes: " so I think it is who they are actually connected too.

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 07, 2012, 06:49:56 PM

I thought all the connections happened through IRC somehow anyway?

In the very beginning yes, not anymore.

SgtSpike

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I thought all the connections happened through IRC somehow anyway?

Stephen Gornick

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Quote from: gweedo on December 07, 2012, 05:47:26 PM

as it states the list of nodes that blockchain.info's bitcoind is connected too. You can't see all globally running bitcoin clients

I don't even know that Blockchain.info needs to be able to connect to it to list it. If node A connects to node B, node B would share the IP for Node A, but node A doesn't necessary need to allow an incoming connection. And thus if Blockchain.info's node learned of node A through node A it might list it even though it cannot connect to it.

I don't know if they are doing that, and doing so would make it trivially easy to pollute Blockchain.info's list of nodes.

gweedo

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Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 07, 2012, 03:30:52 PM

1. What does this exactly mean: List of nodes blockchain.info is connected to. Are this all Bitcoin clients running globally which are connected to blockchain.info or just some random clients?

as it states the list of nodes that blockchain.info's bitcoind is connected too. You can't see all globally running bitcoin clients

Quote from: timeshareafrica on December 07, 2012, 03:30:52 PM

2 How is blockchain.info connected to this nodes, there must be some code in the client in order for blockchain.info to get the connection otherwise how do they get the connection information?

They are running there own modified bitcoind

timeshareafrica

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Following questions:

1. What does this exactly mean: List of nodes blockchain.info is connected to. Are this all Bitcoin clients running globally which are connected to blockchain.info or just some random clients?
2 How is blockchain.info connected to this nodes, there must be some code in the client in order for blockchain.info to get the connection otherwise how do they get the connection information?

Thanks for the answers.

Topic: Blockchain: List of nodes blockchain.info is connected to (Read 2230 times)