Author

Topic: Breaking news: Poland confiscates private pension funds (Read 8139 times)

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3079
IMO the most important thing to do right now is to get our Polish law and compress it by 99%. For every 100 pages, 1 page would be enough.
Next thing would be to lay off 90% of government officials. The bureaucracy is killing every business.

Civil servants only would be a great kind of government IMO. Then the whole population become neo-politicians, and we all vote on the legislation, like politicians do now. The civil servants just have to make it happen. I doubt the population could make things any worse than they are now. I hear arguments against direct democracy saying that the citizenry would be too focused on short term goals for themselves and not on the big picture, but that's a joke when you look at how the past and current forward planning has/will turn out.
full member
Activity: 166
Merit: 100
This just proves that governments can manipulate the amount of official debt. Next time you see the official statistics for the debt, have that in mind.

When trying to estimate the real debt you need to add all the unfunded liabilities. In US that would be 100 - 200 trillions USD total debt with unfunded liabilities!
sr. member
Activity: 358
Merit: 250
The point is public services have to be paid for some how.  Because of the debt based economy we are all used to now, we expect lower taxes and better services, well it just don't work!
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Small Red and Bad
You don't understand that assets wasn't private. If article says that, it isn't said it's true. Stay bullish, and argue from Nigeria or where you live about Polish econimics.

I don't want to be rude or anything but you're embarrassing yourself with such silly remarks. You clearly have a poor understanding of economics.
In your face, Herp.

Prime minister of Poland telling that it wasn't private money and if that was so, everybody could withdraw that money - but they couldn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4V2nMa63JE
Polish prime minister is a known liar so IMO this doesn't prove anything. Even if you can't withdraw those money as you please, they still  belong to you. The government just stole your money to keep a sinking ship afloat for a few more years.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
So bitcoin HAS utility right now -- its utility is peace of mind.  

Nobody outside the core group of evangelists believes that.

True, but the non-believers will come around Smiley And those that trust the pension funds for their retirement are going to be sore out of luck.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
You don't understand that assets wasn't private. If article says that, it isn't said it's true. Stay bullish, and argue from Nigeria or where you live about Polish econimics.

I don't want to be rude or anything but you're embarrassing yourself with such silly remarks. You clearly have a poor understanding of economics.
In your face, Herp.

Prime minister of Poland telling that it wasn't private money and if that was so, everybody could withdraw that money - but they couldn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4V2nMa63JE
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1001
So bitcoin HAS utility right now -- its utility is peace of mind.  

Nobody outside the core group of evangelists believes that.

You know, as much as i disagree with mucus, i will never put him on ignore because he is similar to the nagging feeling in my head whenever i see BTC prices overextend themselves to quickly without having any positive news to back it up.  Mucus has saved me a few bucks over the past few months by keeping me a bit gun shy on the buy trigger, and by convincing me every once in a while that the market is overextended and needs a correction.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
So bitcoin HAS utility right now -- its utility is peace of mind.  

Nobody outside the core group of evangelists believes that.
legendary
Activity: 4130
Merit: 1307
+1.  They were being slowly robbed for years by being forced to contribute to something that they never believed in.  Now that it is official, it is a non-event.  Crazy stuff.



I think you've underestimated the value of bitcoin to allay fear of the future.  And I'm not talking Armageddon.  10% interest with a -5% real return would be bad enough.  Its a big market -- a significant portion of the value of gold is attributable to this service.  Of course gold's role here is tarnished due to its ability to be detected, difficulty of being transferred, having been (once upon a time) declared illegal for this purpose and ultra high value density (hard to actually buy lunch with it).  So a diverse commodity strategy (gold, silver, bitcoin) makes a lot of sense... bitcoin ESPECIALLY looks good in the boiled-frog scenario (where life goes on, basic services still work, just another day where your savings are getting pilfered) compared to gold/silver.

Read the above posts from actual Portuguese people.  They are basically saying this is a non-event because no-one in Portugal ever believed that they'd see a dime from their "retirement" anyway!!!  WTF?!  That's like saying I'm not worried about radiation exposure b/c I already have cancer.  Smiley

So bitcoin HAS utility right now -- its utility is peace of mind.  And of course it does have "raw" utility -- the ability to buy tons of stuff either direct or via services like Gyft...


legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
It seems Bitcoin has just got much more popular in Poland. Anti-fragile, bitches!

If the same happens to the real money laying around at Gox we'll see how "anti-fragile" Butts really are.

for shame trolling lk that.  I've learn3d to expect better from your other posts.  gox is not bitcoin and everyone knows that if you have x usd and y btc in gox all it means is 2 numbers in some gox db.

btc encourages or at least does not penalize holding value personally.  and when you do so noone can take it without your permission.  not counting stealing your personal private key of course.  but that is very different then being able to shift millions of balances into your sphere so you can then borrow against it.

I'm sorry that's my instinctive reaction to up uP UP kind of posts coming from the profiteers who did nothing besides proliferating themselves.

The point here is: What's keeping Bitcoins seemingly valuable currently is not their utility but the willingness of people to exchange Dollars for them. Pretty much everybody who wants to do that exhausted their ability to do so, and once the money vanishes for some reason nobody will hop in to compensate. OTC deals will only go as far and the people who do them would be quite reluctant to pay higher prices without the 'price fixing' taking place at gox.
I'm not saying that can't change in the future, but how it stands that's how it is now.

I think you've underestimated the value of bitcoin to allay fear of the future.  And I'm not talking Armageddon.  10% interest with a -5% real return would be bad enough.  Its a big market -- a significant portion of the value of gold is attributable to this service.  Of course gold's role here is tarnished due to its ability to be detected, difficulty of being transferred, having been (once upon a time) declared illegal for this purpose and ultra high value density (hard to actually buy lunch with it).  So a diverse commodity strategy (gold, silver, bitcoin) makes a lot of sense... bitcoin ESPECIALLY looks good in the boiled-frog scenario (where life goes on, basic services still work, just another day where your savings are getting pilfered) compared to gold/silver.

Read the above posts from actual Portuguese people.  They are basically saying this is a non-event because no-one in Portugal ever believed that they'd see a dime from their "retirement" anyway!!!  WTF?!  That's like saying I'm not worried about radiation exposure b/c I already have cancer.  Smiley

So bitcoin HAS utility right now -- its utility is peace of mind.  And of course it does have "raw" utility -- the ability to buy tons of stuff either direct or via services like Gyft...

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
It seems Bitcoin has just got much more popular in Poland. Anti-fragile, bitches!

If the same happens to the real money laying around at Gox we'll see how "anti-fragile" Butts really are.

for shame trolling lk that.  I've learn3d to expect better from your other posts.  gox is not bitcoin and everyone knows that if you have x usd and y btc in gox all it means is 2 numbers in some gox db.

btc encourages or at least does not penalize holding value personally.  and when you do so noone can take it without your permission.  not counting stealing your personal private key of course.  but that is very different then being able to shift millions of balances into your sphere so you can then borrow against it.

I'm sorry that's my instinctive reaction to up uP UP kind of posts coming from the profiteers who did nothing besides proliferating themselves.

The point here is: What's keeping Bitcoins seemingly valuable currently is not their utility but the willingness of people to exchange Dollars for them. Pretty much everybody who wants to do that exhausted their ability to do so, and once the money vanishes for some reason nobody will hop in to compensate. OTC deals will only go as far and the people who do them would be quite reluctant to pay higher prices without the 'price fixing' taking place at gox.
I'm not saying that can't change in the future, but how it stands that's how it is now.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
It seems Bitcoin has just got much more popular in Poland. Anti-fragile, bitches!

If the same happens to the real money laying around at Gox we'll see how "anti-fragile" Butts really are.

for shame trolling lk that.  I've learn3d to expect better from your other posts.  gox is not bitcoin and everyone knows that if you have x usd and y btc in gox all it means is 2 numbers in some gox db.

btc encourages or at least does not penalize holding value personally.  and when you do so noone can take it without your permission.  not counting stealing your personal private key of course.  but that is very different then being able to shift millions of balances into your sphere so you can then borrow against it.
newbie
Activity: 39
Merit: 0
I would like to comment, as some users do not understand what "private pension funds" in Poland is. This is a fraud system.

Yes, the funds are governed by private entities (financial institutions). Yes, they are obligatory. No, we would never get "our" money out of them. Here is the scheme:

A given percentage of every salary goes to one of ~20 institutions. They take 7% of the amount (not the gain, the full amount!) for the fatigue. The rest is "invested", but 2/3 of that money is invested in Polish government bonds. In the years 2000-2010 (the greatest boom in Poland, economy grows, stocks grow, gold grows, house bubble grows) the best fund lost about 10%. If I kept it in my pocket, I would have at least 20% more. Had I invested, maybe 100%?

How is this "paid back"? First, government needs to buy the bonds back. What money does it take to do it? Taxes. Yes, we, the citizens, must pay more taxes to be able to get pension. Then the money is sent to national system (ZUS) and paid to the retiree. In 2013 the retirement from "private pension funds" was 90 PLN - 30USD - 0.25 BTC.
After the "nationalization" tax money goes directly to ZUS to be paid to the retiree.

The money in the funds is mostly government bonds, and we will never see a fraction of it anyway. And the current government lifted retirement age from 65 to 67 years recently. If these guys are in trouble again, they will lift it to 120 years soon.

To sum up: the public money was moved from the financial institutions (how much do you think they paid for creation of this system 15 years ago?) to government. Nobody lost now (except banksters). But in the next months, the government can raise the debt again, and build more stadiums for our grandchildrens' money.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
I was wondering where Corzine was vaporizing funds these days..
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Topic is still front page article on zerohedge http://www.zerohedge.com/
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The "Invisible hand of the free market"
does not exist in the first place at this moment because of all the regimes. Trully free market won't even let huge corporations and monopoly happen because they are way too ineffective.

Governments are the reason mega corporation exist in this fascist world we live in. It is them and their regulatory BS that creates and maintains these megamonopolies and kill small businesses.

Quote
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
The "Invisible hand of the free market"
does not exist in the first place at this moment because of all the regimes. Trully free market won't even let huge corporations and monopoly happen because they are way too ineffective.

I think that bureaucracy is the natural conclusion of our urbanized lifestyle and the dependence that comes with it and because it is an effective system for urbanized man. I think it only becomes ineffective with sufficient self-reliance of individuals and families in terms of providing for themselves out of natural resources.
In my opinion that is the end-game of technological progress, either that or we go extinct.
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
The "Invisible hand of the free market"
does not exist in the first place at this moment because of all the regimes. Trully free market won't even let huge corporations and monopoly happen because they are way too ineffective.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
political affiliation and ass kissing.

Right, and what do you think happens in the management of these companies? I'm not here to defend the political bureaucracy here, but cooperate bureaucracy isn't better either.
The "Invisible hand of the free market" is the same Bullshit as the "Representative Democracy"

Bureaucracy always leads to the same conclusion and there is no point in substituting one form for the other, they're all bad.
I think there is only one effective mechanism to counteract it: De-urbanisation. I know that sounds inconvenient...

De-urbanisation? I agree that urban environments created the "wage slave" society we have today but what's the alternative you see? Abandon civilization to go live like primitive apes?

Technology and knowledge accumulated won't go away, and we are not mature enough to live a primitive lifestyle yet, although I certainly hope that this is the endgame. If we ever evolve to a space faring species it would be a requirement.
But it would be affordable to run a rudimentary robotic farm for the middle class now.

In my own interpretation of primitivism technology plays a vital role in developing a sustainable society.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
political affiliation and ass kissing.

Right, and what do you think happens in the management of these companies? I'm not here to defend the political bureaucracy here, but cooperate bureaucracy isn't better either.
The "Invisible hand of the free market" is the same Bullshit as the "Representative Democracy"

Bureaucracy always leads to the same conclusion and there is no point in substituting one form for the other, they're all bad.
I think there is only one effective mechanism to counteract it: De-urbanisation. I know that sounds inconvenient...

De-urbanisation? I agree that urban environments created the "wage slave" society we have today but what's the alternative you see? Abandon civilization to go live like primitive apes?
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
political affiliation and ass kissing.

Right, and what do you think happens in the management of these companies? I'm not here to defend the political bureaucracy here, but cooperate bureaucracy isn't better either.
The "Invisible hand of the free market" is the same Bullshit as the "Representative Democracy"

Bureaucracy always leads to the same conclusion and there is no point in substituting one form for the other, they're all bad.
I think there is only one effective mechanism to counteract it: De-urbanisation. I know that sounds inconvenient...
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Insurance companies are big centralized operations full of bureaucrats. They have to please their shareholders which are after profits coming out of the depositors pockets.

Having to please shareholders is a very cool thing. It rewards efficiency and punishes incompetence unlike in the state run environment where people are appointed based on political affiliation and ass kissing.
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
They just converted official government debt into unfunded liabilities. Unfunded liabilities is just another form of debt, it's just off the books.

US federal government unfunded liabilities are around 70 - 200 trillion USD. Total federal debt is then 30-70 times federal tax revenue (2.8 trillion USD).

Europe is even worse. It's the biggest ponzi scheme in all human history.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Insurance companies are big centralized operations full of bureaucrats. They have to please their shareholders which are after profits coming out of the depositors pockets.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You're wrong actually because all state run pension funds are nothing but ponzi schemes. In the end the people get totally screwed. In a state run pension fund no money actually exists, money is paid as new tax money comes in. By contrast in a private pension fund money is actually there, invested in different company shares, bonds, equity and such.

It's HUGE difference!

Yeah, sure, that can happen. But it's not as black and white as that. In this case particularly, for the time being, there are some sort of real assets that exist. State run pensions aren't necessarily paid just out of taxes. Here's an example: http://www.government.se/sb/d/15473/a/183496. Sure, they could get looted down the track, but that's not inherent in the fact that it is state run.

Not sure if its inherently wiser to put trust in a large private financial institution to hold onto people's money and look after their best interest over several decades over a state run one, personally. There's certainly been no lack of private funds where the money somehow disappears into somebody's pocket.

Since when are we all about cheering for large private financial institutions, anyway? Fuck them in their profit motive, parasitic faces I say.

Worth adding though, the way things are going I wouldn't be putting too much stock in either long term.


I trust the private sector WAY more than any government run operation. You can see this in real world. Whatever government touches turns to shit because big centralized operations are doomed to failure from the very start and gov is just that, one big centralized operation. This is why big companies need to be broken into smaller piece when they become too big. They can't function properly anymore.

Companies need to stay competitive and liquid and in order to do that they have to please consumers or pension fund holders in our case. Either that or they go out of business. The government, however, when it runs out of money, instead of defaulting just takes some more by force at the expense of the people.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
You're wrong actually because all state run pension funds are nothing but ponzi schemes. In the end the people get totally screwed. In a state run pension fund no money actually exists, money is paid as new tax money comes in. By contrast in a private pension fund money is actually there, invested in different company shares, bonds, equity and such.

It's HUGE difference!

Yeah, sure, that can happen. But it's not as black and white as that. In this case particularly, for the time being, there are some sort of real assets that exist. State run pensions aren't necessarily paid just out of taxes. Here's an example: http://www.government.se/sb/d/15473/a/183496. Sure, they could get looted down the track, but that's not inherent in the fact that it is state run.

Not sure if its inherently wiser to put trust in a large private financial institution to hold onto people's money and look after their best interest over several decades over a state run one, personally. There's certainly been no lack of private funds where the money somehow disappears into somebody's pocket.

Since when are we all about cheering for large private financial institutions, anyway? Fuck them in their profit motive, parasitic faces I say.

Worth adding though, the way things are going I wouldn't be putting too much stock in either long term.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.

Wow A post with shot of common sense in the Economics forum, I'm shocked. Shocked

This is the reason why world economy is so messed up because most people have this guy's "common sense". Common sense is not so common these days or not what it used to be.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.

You're wrong actually because all state run pension funds are nothing but ponzi schemes. In the end the people get totally screwed. In a state run pension fund no money actually exists, money is paid as new tax money comes in. By contrast in a private pension fund money is actually there, invested in different company shares, bonds, equity and such.

It's HUGE difference!
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.

Wow A post with shot of common sense in the Economics forum, I'm shocked. Shocked
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 09/06/2013 14:50 -0400

someone was watching fight club
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
I think that most people just did like I did: Ignored the pension found [let the government decide "randomly"] and continued with their life.
I don't get any reports from my bank about my pension found. I don't even remember which found was selected for me. I guess that's the reality of 99% people.
Only people interested in economics [1%? Less?] even understand what is going on.

Very true, about 10 years ago I don't understand at all those reports and suggestions of fund selection from state run pension fund. But after I seeing my mother have to work more years and receive less pension than government promised 15 years ago. I start to save in private equities and bitcoins, totally ignore those letters from government pension funds

Same, most of the people don't need to understand the ponzi scheme nature of pension fund, but if they see that their parents get less paid in pension, they will simply stop to save in those funds and hopefully they will move their savings into bitcoin  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
This is going to happen sooner or later with a debt based fiat money system. Since the old people won't fight, they are the first target of confiscation. Currently many other governments take another route: Extend the retirement age to compensate for the deficit

Just like long term saving account, pension fund is also some kind of large scale ponzi scheme, but due to its very long time frame, the scheme will only collapse after 1-2 generations
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
All the regimes are doing this. They tuneled and sold under price many huge corporations here and just from this year VAT rose to 21 % so we are already 2 % over Germany.

No matter their efforts, looking at debt rise graph, I am pretty much sure most of the states in Europe will bancrupt in next decade. Don't think western countries are all right, their debt is rising in huge amounts as well, jsut nobody is yeeling, because they cannot go bancrupt, right? Well, we'll see…
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Small Red and Bad
Poland has been living on credit for years. For starters they started selling/closing (mainly shipyards, foundries and sugar factories)  causing bankrupcy of their suppliers and increased unemployment. When they needed money they just borrowed from the EU. Few years ago they found out everything is going to hell as a large number of unemployed left the country and nobody is working for future pensions. So now they are trying to steal as much as they can to keep afloat. First they taxed the bank investments and lowered interest rates, then increased VAT tax to 23% and minimal pension age to 67 and finally stole the investment funds.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3079
"They say the old system effectively made Polish public debt appear higher than it really is."

That is some of the most comical double think I think I've ever heard. Imagine a conventional robber using this excuse in a courtroom.
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
The difference between theft from OFE and Cyprus bank robbery is huge.

- In Cyprus people logged into their banks and saw their money being confiscated. That caused MASSIVE panic.
- In Poland our pension founds are being stolen. No one will realize it until after 10-20 years. People won't care.

Also, knowing the media coverage in my awful country no one will know about it, except for the people that are interested in economy. Another huge contrast to logging into bank and seeing one zero less.

I vote: Event neutral for the price.

It still has huge impact. Our government just wanted to push all employees into similar system. Now when everybody sees what happens to our neighbours - and I am 100% positive this would happen here as well (as all the governments are just increasing the debt and sooner rather than later they will run out of money) - nobody will let that happen here.

Anyway, anybody arround believe there will be any pensions in 10 years in Europe? Most of the governments will be long bancrupt by that time.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Quote
I agree. This money is not private. If I can't spend or withdraw them, it's not my money.
And if it's not my money I simply don't care.

Haha. Following this logic, those who have money in trust funds they can't touch until they turn certain age are not the owners of that money. Of course it's your money just that you can't take it whenever you wish. You are probably young and don't give a shit. Others who are closer to their retirement age won't feel the same. Even young people have a parent who's probably retired or close to retirement who's getting royally screwed by this move.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
It seems Bitcoin has just got much more popular in Poland. Anti-fragile, bitches!

If the same happens to the real money laying around at Gox we'll see how "anti-fragile" Butts really are.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye
Too much drama. This isn't bullish. I'm from Poland. That cash was lost anyway coz of fuc*ing obligatory social insurance contributions and non-entrepreneurs officials. None here believe in pension after 67 years of working.

You don't get to retire until you are 85 years old?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You don't understand that assets wasn't private. If article says that, it isn't said it's true. Stay bullish, and argue from Nigeria or where you live about Polish econimics.

I don't want to be rude or anything but you're embarrassing yourself with such silly remarks. You clearly have a poor understanding of economics.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The difference between theft from OFE and Cyprus bank robbery is huge.

- In Cyprus people logged into their banks and saw their money being confiscated. That caused MASSIVE panic.
- In Poland our pension founds are being stolen. No one will realize it until after 10-20 years. People won't care.

Also, knowing the media coverage in my awful country no one will know about it, except for the people that are interested in economy. Another huge contrast to logging into bank and seeing one zero less.

I vote: Event neutral for the price.

Actually private pension funds even if they are just a % of pension funds. Poland has hybrid system where certain % of pension was run by private pension funds and the other % was run by state.

Thing is people got reports from the banks running their pension funds, periodic reports are sent out on regular basis like on a stock brokerage account where people can keep track of how their private pension invested money is doing.

Trust me, lots of people will be aware about it and pissed.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1001
WTF, this is getting crazy.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
You don't understand that assets wasn't private. If article says that, it isn't said it's true. Stay bullish, and argue from Nigeria or where you live about Polish econimics.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Nationalization of assets is confiscation actually. It's exactly what they did.
I ment it wasn't private money. No nationalization here, sorry. Prove (sorry, it's only in Polish):
http://static.e-prawnik.pl/pdf/orzeczenia/3_II_UK_08_12.pdf

It's all there in the article. Of course that money in those private pensions is private money. This is theft basically. State ran out of money and started stealing money from private pension fund accounts. This is the story here. Got it? Take some time to actually read the article before posting stuff like "fake".
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
Nationalization of assets is confiscation actually. It's exactly what they did.
I ment it wasn't private money. No nationalization here, sorry. Prove (sorry, it's only in Polish):
http://static.e-prawnik.pl/pdf/orzeczenia/3_II_UK_08_12.pdf
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

Nationalization of assets is confiscation actually. It's exactly what they did.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.
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Too much drama. This isn't bullish.

You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.

Of course it's bullish for Bitcoin price. It's a repeat of what happened in Cyprus to some extent.

It's also an event announcing further bank bail-ins. Expect those soon after the German elections.
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Too much drama. This isn't bullish. I'm from Poland. That cash was lost anyway coz of fuc*ing obligatory social insurance contributions and non-entrepreneurs officials. None here believe in pension after 67 years of working.
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This is huge news and greatly alarming development! Potential to be very bullish for Bitcoin though.  Shocked

Quote
Poland Confiscates Half Of Private Pension Funds To Cut Sovereign Debt Load

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 09/06/2013 14:50 -0400

While the world was glued to the developments in the Mediterranean in the past week, Poland took a page straight out of Rahm Emanuel's playbook and in order to not let a crisis go to waste, announced quietly that it would transfer to the state - i.e., confiscate - the bulk of assets owned by the country's private pension funds (many of them owned by such foreign firms as PIMCO parent Allianz, AXA, Generali, ING and Aviva), without offering any compensation. In effect, the state just nationalized roughly half of the private sector pension fund assets, although it had a more politically correct name for it: pension overhaul.

By way of background, Poland has a hybrid pension system: as Reuters explains, mandatory contributions are made into both the state pension vehicle, known as ZUS, and the private funds, which are collectively known by the Polish acronym OFE. Bonds make up roughly half the private funds' portfolios, with the rest company stocks.

And while a change to state-pension funds was long awaited - an overhaul if you will - nobody expected that this would entail a literal pillage of private sector assets.

On Wednesday, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said private funds within the state-guaranteed system would have their bond holdings transferred to a state pension vehicle, but keep their equity holdings.  The funds would effectively be left with only the equities portions of their assets, even this would be depleted, and there will be uncertainty about the number of new savers joining.

But why is Poland engaging in behavior that will ultimately be disastrous to future capital allocation in non-public pension funds (the type that can at least on paper generate some returns as opposed to "public" funds which are guaranteed to lose)? After all, this is a last ditch step which no rational person would engage in unless there were no other option. Simple: there were no other option, and the driver is the same reason the world everywhere else is broke too - too much debt.

By shifting some assets from the private funds into ZUS, the government can book those assets on the state balance sheet to offset public debt, giving it more scope to borrow and spend. Finance Minister Jacek Rostowski said the changes will reduce public debt by about eight percent of GDP. This in turn, he said, would allow the lowering of two thresholds that deter the government from allowing debt to raise over 50 percent, and then 55 percent, of GDP. Public debt last year stood at 52.7 percent of GDP, according to the government's own calculations.

To summarize:

    Government has too much debt to issue more debt
    Government nationalizes private pension funds making their debt holdings an "asset" and commingles with other public assets
    New confiscated assets net out sovereign debt liability, lowering the debt/GDP ratio
    Debt/GDP drops below threshold, government can issue more sovereign debt

And of course, once Poland borrows like a drunken sailor using the new window of opportunity, and maxes out its new and improved limits, it will have no choice but to confiscate more assets, and to make its balance sheet appear better, until one day, there is nothing left in the private sector to confiscate. At that point the limit itself will have to be legislated away, and Poland will simply continue borrowing until one day there are no foreign lenders willing to take the same risk as the nation's private pensioners. At that point, Poland, which is in the EU but still has the Zloty, can just go ahead and monetize its own debt by printing unlimited amounts of its currency.

Of course, we all know how that story ends.

The response to the confiscation was, naturally, one of shock:

    The reform is "a decimation of the ...(private pension fund) system to open up fiscal space for an easier life now for the government," said Peter Attard Montalto of Nomura. "The government has an odd definition of private property given it claims this is not nationalisation."

    

    "This is worse than many on the markets had feared," a manager at one of the leading pension funds, who asked not to be identified, told Reuters.

    "The devil is in the detail and we don't yet know a lot about the mechanism of these changes, what benchmarks will be use to evaluate our performance... (It) looks like pension funds will lose a lot of flexibility in what they can invest."

Catastrophic consequences for fund flows aside, the Polish prime minister had a prompt canned response:

    Tusk said people joining the pension system in the future would not be obliged to pay into the private part of the system. Depending on the finer points, this could mean still fewer assets in the private funds.

    

    "The (current) system has turned out to be built in part on rising public debt and turned out to be a very costly system," Tusk told a news conference.

    

    "We believe that, apart from the positive consequence of this decision for public debt, pensions will also be safer."

You see, he is from the government, and he is confiscating the pensions to make them safer. Confiscation is Safety and all that...

    Polish officials have tried to reassure investors, saying the overhaul avoids the more radical options of taking both bond and equity assets away from the private funds outright.

    

    They say the old system effectively made Polish public debt appear higher than it really is.

Well, once you nationalize private assets, the public debt will lindeed appear lower than it was before confiscation: we give them that much.

End result: "The Polish pension funds' organisation said the changes may be unconstitutional because the government is taking private assets away from them without offering any compensation.... This may lead to the private pension systems shutting down," said Rafal Benecki of ING Bank Slaski."

Unconstitutional? What's that. But whatever it is, it's ok - after all the public pension system is still around. At least until that too is plundered. But in the meantime, all such pensions will be "safer", guaranteed.

But best of all, in the aftermath of Cyprus, we now know what the two most recent European blueprints for preserving the myth of solvency are: bail-ins, which confiscate deposits, and pension fund "overhauls", which confiscate, well, pension funds.

And now, back to the global recovery soap opera.
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