Topic: Brexit - Why do they call a second referendum a "people's vote" (Read 596 times)

In 1990 people in my coutry decided to leave Yugoslavia. On the referendum 88.5% of all voters (94.8% of those participating) voted for independence. In 2003 people in my country decided to join the EU. 90% of those who voted were in favor of joining the EU with 60% appearing for the vote. If I recall corectly on the Brexit referendum, around 52% voted to leave the EU and about 70% of eligible voters voted. Such an important decision, such a divided country.

Yet I don't think there is way back. The process has been set in motion, it is not up to UK to reverse it. I can't even imagine a politician in entire UK to pull the brake. It has been decided, it will be done.

All these countries can leave as long as they accept the consequences. A different matter is if it is in their best interest to stay, which it is.


National Governments are elected, thus the Commission is elected by elected people to represent the interest of their countries in the best possible manner. You may call that "non-elected" but I disagree.


You are free to think so. For me, it is clear that Germany and France agendas are going to progress much faster without the UK, which has been basically blocking the much needed changes in EU due to its own internal divisions.

Now, there is no doubt that the EU is stronger with the UK in. But as I said, nothing is free, and the UK has been receiving more than giving.


You are free to think so and convince others if you can. But, then let them all have a final say and see if you have succeeded. Unless you think that the result is not going to be of your liking of course.


Only British could vote in the referendum. Only Londoners could vote in London. Perhaps your idea of what British people are is outdated, roughly by half a century+.


EU immigrants are all legal by definition as things stand now.

Illegal immigration may and does cause problems if is not dealt with correctly.

A law on the books is not the same as reality or enforcement. Never been a problem? NEVER?! ok... Also I would love to see your data supporting these conclusions. BTW, are you talking about illegal immigrants, or just immigrants? I know you people like to make it like people like me don't make a distinction.

Legal immigrants largely do all those things, illegal immigrants don't. Also many "legal" immigrants are there by false pretenses, which really makes them illegal immigrants.


Uh, no. That is what the people pushing the EU have done. OH WE MUST ALLOW THE VOTE! THIS IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC! You yourself literally even did it in the same breath as you accuse me of it. I am simply arguing within the rubric presented. Frankly in my opinion pure Democracy is a flawed form of government, but that is another discussion.

Immigration has never been uncontrolled in the UK. London voted massively against brexit, so apparently Londoners do not agree with that.
Not "LONDONERS" really         more like IRAQ AFRICA all rolled into one ..

Be like going to TOKYO and no JAPAN peoples there   so what was the point in going to JAPAN? ..
Maybe i go to botswana and they be more cockneys there ?..

Hmm maybe we should change our countries names like call botswana LONDON  and LONDON botswana  ..
See that way if i go on holiday i know what type of holiday i will be getting..

I can imagine a poor guy from Japan saving up to go to LONDON then when he gets here thinks fuck me it's like botswana ..
When he should of went to botswana where all the cockneys are..

No, Europe is not a dictatorship..Say the same to ITALY POLAND HUNGARY GREECE ..Oh and trying to do the same to the UK   NO CHANCE..

you have elected members. JUNKER unelected ? The European Commission is a permanent unelected body of 17 people appointed by national Governments for 5 years or more..

You can leave whenever you want as long as you are willing to accept the consequences like an adult.
I think it's the EU who will be having consequences when we leave   that's why they want us to stay so much..

I want a no deal walk away   27 countries all squabbling over apples and car parts   make them our self ..

I worked in car factory and many many times they have slow downs because you can only sell so many cars before everyone has a car ..
They are called slow downs many many factories have this but they will blame brexit at this present time in life   REMEMBER when business has share holders easy to blame something else than your companies performance  ..

just another world lesson from the popcorn1..

They are not. There is an immigration law in the EU. Regarding immigrants from the EU, they have never been a problem. They are on average qualified and willing to integrate themselves in UK, follow the law and pay taxes.


Again, you put yourself as the paladin of democracy, yet at the same time you deny people a say on their future.

If the EU borders are open, and other countries don't control immigration, the UK's immigration is effectively uncontrolled. You talk about whats on paper all you want. The reality is people don't want the EU. They already get almost no representation at a national level. Do you really believe you will get representation at a supranational or global level? Please. If you do I have a rare autographed football from Santa Claus I would like to sell you.

The EU is the problem, it always was. Not participating is the solution. No one ever voted to join the EU, they were just pigeonholed into it by bureaucrats so people like you can pretend Brexit is the cause of these issues and not the EU. Unaccountable international organizations controlled by cartels are the problem. National sovereignty is the solution.

Immigration has never been uncontrolled in the UK. London voted massively against brexit, so apparently Londoners do not agree with that.


There are many ways of getting out of the EU. Norway is out, Switzerland is out, Rusia is out... But they are not outside in the same way.

In the name of democracy, the final say has to be silenced. - Am I the only one that sees something wrong in that statement?


Well, at least someone is proposing a solution: Offering Trump the "presidency" of UK. Would you you allow a referendum on that, or would you say that it was implicit on the previous one?

I think you gotta understand that opinions of humans change.

And if people want to vote again let them vote, that is what democracy is.

Btw. You guys could also vote if you should do a 2nd vote. 

So much misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread.

The referendum asked a fairly simple question - should we leave the EU? The country said that it wanted out, and the two year transition period wass to create new trading rules, not to try to make everything as bad as possible to weaken the country as a punishment for disobeying the Elite.

Democracy doesn't work when your choice is between two Prime Ministers, both of whom are part of the Eton/Oxford puppet masters group. It is even harder to implement when the senior civil servants are also sworn membersof the same coven. It has taken Donald Trump two years of very careful planning and action to start to pull America out of the same pit. We need a Donald Trump in the UK.

Uncontrolled immigration has been a massive economic and social disaster for Britain. Just visit some of the cities to see the results, and that includes London.

- No, Europe is not a dictatorship, you have elected members. You can leave whenever you want as long as you are willing to accept te consequences like an adult.

- No, many countries in Europe are glad that the UK has decided to leave, because it was in the way of the fiscal unification agenda of Germany and France.

- No, the hard border with Ireland was not there before Brexit. The cost of it cannot be assumed.

- No, is not a debate tactic, it is, once again, the reality of things. The result of the first vote has been carried out. People now, with full information of the results achieved can have a say. A say that you want to silence while you pretend to be the paragon and defender of democracy - Because you know what the result would be don´t you?

- The chance of re-joining the EU in a future date is unrealistic. UK has caused a big problem and an economic loss to everyone in the EU along with uncertainty to many British and non-British citizens. This is not like dating, it has severe consequences on the lives of many people - not the rich precisely.

There is no hell or falling heavens, there are simply hard economic facts that are showing themselves and promises that are impossible to deliver. That is not what leavers voted for.



PROMISED ......VS........ DELIVERED
WOULD YOU NOT HAVE A SAY ON THIS RESULT?

Why are you afraid to let people vote now then.. We British are not afraid of another vote    we just want the first vote carried out first ..
See the idea of voting is 1 vote to see what the outcome is    no point in voting again and again because some didn't get what they wanted OR what is the point in having a vote?..

Now have had more time to ponder how real were the promises and what the consequences are..
We was told nuke war locust starve to death sky falls in mega death  I mean what more could they have told us before we voted leave? ..

Now everyone knows the EU don't want us to leave NOW lets imagine we have a second vote on the outcome we go to the EU and say what deal can we have what do you think they will say ?    KNOWING we are having a second vote on the outcome of leaving the EU ..

They will say nuke war locust starve to death sky falls in mega death<..

Oh nice debate tactic there, you really put me on the defensive. I sure am scared! DOOM AND GLOOM! THE SKY IS FALLING!

Really though, I explained multiple times already why this second vote is a fraud and the EU itself was a fraud to begin with. What you are talking about is not reality, it is a synthetic manufactured illusion created by the media. Another vote just gives these con artists another opportunity to rig it right this time. Any problems you can point at were ongoing previously or purposely exasperated by the EU in a punitive attempt at punishing the UK for voting to leave. They are desperate because all it will take is one more major contributing nation to leave before the EU is a non-entity.


Also everyone might want to take note, this was Hitler's ultimate goal, a unified Europe. Just saying...

Why are you afraid to let people vote now then? They now have had more time to ponder how real were the promises and what the consequences are.

You may try to deny what´s happening, but the problem with reality is that is there even if you don´t like it: All the economic indicators of UK are going downhill, including the leadership in finances, the industrial capability and the ability of updating salaries with inflation even at full employment. The interest rates are also now going to catch the families on the wrong foot.

And no, you cannot replace more 25% of your exports without a huge damage to the country, that´s not how markets work.

Yes, the vote is being ignored, if it wasn't why try to vote again? Yes the UK absolutely can replace its trade with the EU, that is how world markets work. The "BREXIT" did not cause any of these issues. These ware all already issues, or they were invented to create as much disincentive as possible for leaving the EU. This is basically a financial and geopolitical bait and switch. The EU arrangements are odious on their face and DESIGNED to strip EU of its wealth, rights, and sovereignty.


Because that is how voting works. People choose and the most popular choice wins. Only they already voted, and it was to leave.

You can make a vague deal that will be deemed unacceptable by hard brexiters, but the problem of having a country and a governing party that are divided is not going to solve itself.

For the moment, the UK rebate (a huge amount of money) is questioned in case the UK decides to remain. Creating uncertainty and trouble is not free.




The vote was not ignored. The government has tried to deliver the promises that were made during the referendum. Just in case someone did not know already, these were absolutely impossible.

- The EU immigration is linked to the common market and the UK cannot pick and choose.
- You can´t pretend to access a market without having a common jurisdiction.
- You can´t substitute the trade the UK has with Europe with imaginary trade deals with Trumpist USA, China, India nor any other country.

And so many other stupidities that no-one ever thought that would have to be delivered, as the result was not expected.

At this point, most UK citizens have finally realised that it was a bad idea to leave,  that the younger generations are going to pay for it dearly and that it would be convenient to re-think (re-vote) to see what people think today after seeing the true nature of a Brexit.


Correct, they could be offered a choice of what type of Brexit they want or try (I am not that sure it is really possible) to revert the decision.

The realistic alternatives at this point are:

a) WTO rules, with no deal at all. Hard border in Ireland.
 This option is super-expensive. Not even the UK can afford the luxury of doing this.

b) Canadian style trade deal.
Reasonable, yet still very expensive. Probably would cause a crisis for the young generations.

c) Norwegian / Swiss type of deal, with full access to market and free movement of people.
Would make the UK loose face, as it was better to have influence, but minimises the crisis, the pound recovers and we are again one happy (dysfunctional) family.

There is no chance of a Chequers agreement. In the UK is seen as insufficient for the brexiters and in Europe is seen as giving a ridiculously privileged treatment to the UK.

BTW, Can any of the hard brexiters here provide a practical, economically viable and realistic answer to the Irish border issue? Because all that is being said is about conspiracy theories, governing illuminati, etc... but I just don´t see anything that could possibly solve the real problems. Just a mumble-jumble of empire-age nostalgia, mixed with false information and xenophobic propaganda.

Your elected representatives are the people you vote for, not bureaucrats.

The European immigration is legal and does not bring crime, it does not bring violence and greatly contributes to the UK productivity. These are statistical facts.

If people don´t want this, what is the problem in asking again? No need to answer, we both know what the result would be.

Technically we have already left, as we triggered an irrerversible leaving process. We can extend the "transition" period to allow furher disposal and theft of national assets by the Eton/Oxford banking elite. Alternatively, we can apply to rejoin the bankrupt EU. There wouldn't be any pont though, as the Elite are already working on the replacements for the EU - eEstonia, The Saudi community, The new British UnCommonwealth, and some Asian projects for example. They need to get rid of a load more of the world population first though. If you don't belive me, then reflect on these facts.

The giant mosquito created by a company founded by Oxford Univerity in 2002, and recently released in North Carolina following the Hurricane devastation.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zLiqa_Y8Gn8/maxresdefault.jpg

A Harvard University has stated that coconut oil is poison following some research funded by a corn oil manufacturer. Coconut oil is now considered to be the healthiest cooking oil because of a variety of its properties.Corn oil ranks with Soya as possibly the unhealthiest cooking oil.
https://www.livescience.com/63405-coconut-oil-poison-or-not.html

Harvard and the Sorbonne are closely linked with the Eton/Oxford group - remember Clinton was a Rhodes scholar at Oxford.

It's a common propaganda tactic to use simple names to associate ideas or feelings with the thing you want to promote.
In Soviet Russia the state propaganda press was called Truth. Orwell makes great note of all these things.
Calling it the peoples vote is meant to support their agitprop tactic of pretending that the first vote was a sham, orchestrated by "them", and based on disinformation.
It's rather amusing, considering that before the referendum, Remainers would rubbish the idea of a forced second vote (as happened in Ireland, Holland etc) as conspiracy theory and here they are (the EU and neolibs) attempting to do just that. It's laughable.
If there is a second vote, the public has no reason to vote ever again.

True, but what is the point of having a vote if it is just ignored? Also what is stopping them from just voting over and over again until they get the result they want? No. This is all contrived establishment creep and PR trying to pull Britain into the EU against popular will.

The core of the question is though, if now the majority votes for not leaving how can you deny their choice?

Wouldnt that be non democratic?


The majority can still vote no and cement the results of the first vote

British inclusion into the EU was never voted on, this was a bureaucratic hijacking to begin with. Speaking of lies, lets talk about the cost of limitless unenforced illegal immigration and the violence and crime it brings. It worked well in the referendum because no one bothered asking the people to begin with, and they never wanted this.

People are always influenced by one factor or another. The propaganda and false promises before the referendum are now evident:

- No money is saved. The "divorce bill" and the damage to the economy will eat ten times any saving.
- The border with Ireland is a nightmare. Just setting a border would cost twice the contribution to the UE, not to mention the social issues.
- The immigrants have never been a problem. The UK is unable to generate at home the expertise it needs, particularly in the Healt sector.

And so many other lies...

And now there is fear to let people speak now that the facts are showing themselves and, once again, you look for an enemy from outside or inside to cover the facts. Well done, it did work well in the referendum... give it another try.

The people already voted to leave. This second referendum is the establishment and the EU attempting to media spin the UK back into its parasitic grasp.

Pretty sure the government and many officials pushed numbers and narratives that were simply false.

Along side foreign influence on the elections, it's not a wonder why there's a second referendum proposed to the people by the people.

A trade deal is precisely about setting those conditions. It is time to assume that the Brexit cannot be delivered in the terms promised. It has always been a lie.

The period was set in article 150 of the EU treaty.

Europe does not prevent anyone from leaving. That's false.
The period was not set for Brexit, it would be the same for anyone.
Brexit means brexit means nothing, is a catchphrase.


This is false information, the stats show that EU migrants contribute more, take less sick leave and are more productive than average. Those arguments have no base except hate and FUD.



Not for EU migrants at all.


Then UK should address the real problem instead of being suicidal.

If you don't believe in the Eton/Oxford/Harvard elite, then reflect on this.

In 2002 Oxford University founded a biotec company caled Oxitec. They have developed a mosquito that is 20 times the size of a normal mosquito, and it has just been released into North Carolina, and they are breeding in the stagnant pools following hurricane Florence.

Governments don't make trade deals, companies do that. All governments do is to create barriers and impse taxes.

Prior to the referendum, there was a massive amount of publicity that stated that "Brexit was Brexit", and that we would be leaving the EU - well what a load of cock that was. The stipulated 2 year tansition period that was designed to negotiate arrangements to supplement world trade agreements has been squandered in futile attempts to create a fake exit from the bankrupt EU. It also provides a period for UK assets and wealth to continue to be removed from the country.

A person who has British grand parents is more likely to want to preserve the established culture and economy, than an immigrant with an interest in rehoming his relatives to take advantage of the prosperity and charity of the country. Obviously this is not true in all cases, but stats seem to bear out the fact. We have also had a change in the education policy in the UK ( the removal of grammar schools for example ) and a rise in the snowflake teachers who villify national identity, and ambition. This is the reason we need hard working Polish workers ( and others ), whilst we have so many lazy unemployed young Britons.

I wouldn't agree with this, I just think that people around the world usually assume that when a vote occurs the decision is going to be made, and it's going to be enforced within the next year or so. Now we're about 2 years out and we're still in Brexit negotiations, which is something which is foreign to the rest of to the world.

It's a way to mask the failures of the current administration in pushing for the people.

Everyone who votes no is no real scottsman!

It is very easy to make a case for a single industry or treaty, ignoring the rest. As I said, nothing is free. You will boost fishing related industries, but loose in some other aspect. EU negotiations are exactly that, you give and you take. In the case of the UK, it has been able to take a lot and frankly Germany is so happy to see the UK leaving and stop being a problem for their politics.


Only the brits could vote in the referedum. What do you mean by "real British Vote"? I hope you are not trying to establish a British "race" argument here.


An UK referendum would not allow any extension period. That is false information. Any extension would have to be agree by the 27 members of the European Union.

Again, the first referendum was "the true voice of the people", but the second would be "the Etonians manipulated vote". That does not fly.

There are some interesting comments in ths thread.

re: The fishing industry - if we stop allowing European fisherman to catch our fish, and then sell them back to us, catching them ourselves will boost UK employment, and save us the cost of paying foreign fisherman to catch our fish, and the unemployment benefits paid to our own fishermen.

If you consider the manipulation by the governement who sought to control the referendum vote, and the number of immigrants seeking to increase their communities, then the real British vote woud have been a far larger percentage. One example is the failed immigrant banker Gina Miller, who was educated at Roedean ( the girl's equivalent of Eton), and has received over £1 million in payment from Soros. If you consider all the other example, you start to realise the extent of the problem.

The vacillation by the current remainer government, whilst appearing to be incompetent, is in reality quite skilful. It is continuing the policy of transferring the UK national and private assets and wealth into the hands of the Eton?Oxford elite who control the EU. A deep state inspired referendum would allow them to extended the wasted two year transition period that is coming to an end. and continue their destruction of the social fabric of Britain.

Well....

The second vote will be the .... people that MATTER ....

The first was those .... like Hillary Clinton famously said ... "The deplorable!"

And there is a good reason: the Government has probably been stealing money every second.


Are you afraid of letting the "real people" (As opposed to the imaginary people?) have a second say?


You were told many things that have been proven false.



An insignificant majority compared to the many that did not vote and far too small to implement a change of that calibre.


Nope, the negotiations were born blocked because the UK, and particularly the Conservatives are incapable of having an agreement among themselves, which is the cause of all this issue. Did anyone think that bringing the EU into this conversation would make it easier?


It is called negotiation. Be sure that UK did not ever give something for nothing.




False. At this point in time even many of people who voted leave have found out that they were wrong. Why are Brexiters afraid of letting people speak again? (no need to answer, we all know why)



Which at the moment is bringing in a massive influx of foreign investment and subsidising de-facto the rest of the country. And now people have become aware.


So the first vote is "the real people speaking" while a new consultation would be "the Deep State". The fear is strong in this one.

Im a UK citizen who left the UK. I think its outrage if there will be a second Brexit vote.. the people voted for this, this vote can't be undermined or shouldn't be undermined by house of lords 'representatives' (that's a laugh) who feel that a second vote should be cast..

The UK is disheartened by the mass influx of immigration from these Muslim/African countries.. its a tiny little island with 70million people already! we have seen how destructive it has been to the indigenous people from Germany and Norway.. these people aren't capable to assimilate into the culture.. what fragments of culture is left..  


https://youtu.be/pgRwjNJrw4U
https://youtu.be/yaGcpdYHfxM

The latest situation with Greece is one reason why  the Deep State wants to lock countries in their asset harvesting tool - the misnamed European Union.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdUV8o0p720&t=328s

They allow banks to indulge in reckless lending to increase the amount of debt, and when the banks state that they are close to failure because of this policy, the relevant government steps in to buy or guarantee the debt, and thus transfer liability onto the population of the country. The Eu then steps in and forces the country to sell it assets at a discount to Deep State organisation or associates. Iceland rejected this approach, and allowed banks to fail, and imprisoned the culpable bankers. Everyone said that it would destroy Iceland, but the reality is that Iceland has a much stronger economy as a result of its actions.

I may have to read up about it./

What's been very clear from the popular media is that your deep state is actively trying to prevent what the people want.

It's interesting that there are no replies in this thread, and it confirms that there is only minimal interest in Brexit outside the UK, and a lot of people are bored with it there as well. Given that it is an unexpected rebellion by the country that created the banking global elite via the Eton/Oxford priviliged elite ( Clinton was an Eton Rhodes scholar ), I find this a bit surprising. I suspect thart most people don't understand the major changes in the world economies that have started. Trump's breaking of the 1970s Petro-dollar agreement with Saudi is another manifestation of this rebellion.

We voted to leave the European Union in a referendum, which was a real people's vote. We were told that "Brexit means Brexit", and that leaving would be a complete break with a two year transition period to negotiate new trading arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world. Despite the large number of immigrants in Britain, and the people who thought that leaving the EU would deny them access to cheap sex and drink holidays, we had a majority who voted to leave, This was a shock to the Eton/Oxford elite who control the UK and the EU, and they set about stalling things to try to minimise the leeching of UK assets. Theresa May has been extremely clever in managing to continue our loss of sovereignty, and assets, whilst appearing to be incompetent. It was clear from the beginning that the only ( and desirable ) exit strategy was under world trade rules, and it is difficult to see how any alternative can be considered. The popular press refers to it as "crashing out", and this may be true, but not because it is destructve, but because the Eton/Oxford controlled deep state have managed to block and delay negotiatons.

The fisheries industry is just one example of their tactics. Membership of the common fisheries agreement has been massively damaging to out fishing industry, and also to piscine sustainability. Regaining control will save us around £300 biilion in import costs, and provide many jobs as the industry is rebuilt. Failure to take control will continue the decline in British fishing employment, increase food costs, and lead to the permanent loss of UK fishing rights. This is the objective of the "Deep State" as they continue their attempts to control the UK, and expand on the morphed British Empire known as "The City of London".

A second referendum on Brexit will not be a people's vote, but will be a Deep State globalist vote.