Author

Topic: [BTC-TC] BTCI mining stocks investment fund IPO (Read 1312 times)

donator
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1001

You can get combined growth and income funds in the real world.  So why not in bitcoin land.  It doesn't matter now anyway.

Because the corporate governance infrastructures are different. People have to put too much trust.

P.S. Have you been prepared to make up our violated contract? I don't see where the delaying comes. You are still been accused a scammer, matthewh3.

SCAMMER: matthewh3. Violating agreement
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
47.5% of the profits made will be reinvested into buying more shares and increasing our market capitalisation as well as increasing dividends.
In my opinion, this is not a good idea. Funds should return all income as dividends. If you need to increase the size of the fund, you can always sell more shares at NAV.

Or retain it ALL for growth.  A mix of dividending some and retaining some pretty much offers the worst of both worlds.

All dividends gives investors most control over their money.
All growth means investors don't have to DO something with dividends all the time to avoid cash sitting idle - plus it allows them very clearly to see the overall performance of the fund (just look at how NAV/U as changed sinced investing).

Personally I prefer growth - so long as the fund offers good liquidity (absolutely key).  You can then sell units if you want cash with (effectively) automatic zero-fee reinvestment if you don't.  If no operator-provided liquidity then divended probably better - as at least you get something back if you want out but there's no buyers.


You can get combined growth and income funds in the real world.  So why not in bitcoin land.  It doesn't matter now anyway.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
47.5% of the profits made will be reinvested into buying more shares and increasing our market capitalisation as well as increasing dividends.
In my opinion, this is not a good idea. Funds should return all income as dividends. If you need to increase the size of the fund, you can always sell more shares at NAV.

Or retain it ALL for growth.  A mix of dividending some and retaining some pretty much offers the worst of both worlds.

All dividends gives investors most control over their money.
All growth means investors don't have to DO something with dividends all the time to avoid cash sitting idle - plus it allows them very clearly to see the overall performance of the fund (just look at how NAV/U as changed sinced investing).

Personally I prefer growth - so long as the fund offers good liquidity (absolutely key).  You can then sell units if you want cash with (effectively) automatic zero-fee reinvestment if you don't.  If no operator-provided liquidity then divended probably better - as at least you get something back if you want out but there's no buyers.
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
Also in the Asset Issuers ToS:

Quote
There is a NON-REFUNDABLE FEE of 5 BTC per security created.

Asset Issuers please read the ToS before submitting.  There is stuff in there you will probably not like and it's important that you understand that there are big differences between BTC-TC and GLBSE, especially when it comes to funds and what they are allowed to do on the exchange.


Thank you for using BTC-TC.


hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
https://btct.co/security/BTCI

Bitcoin Investments - Mining stocks Investment fund

To use the proceeds of the IPO to buy shares in mainly in bitcoin based mining stocks with a strong organic growth plan.   To focus on the soon to be five listed mining stocks on the exchange.  We will also look into other bitcoin securities with a strong growth plan also on other exchanges.  We will try to avoid bonds.  47.5% of the profits made will be reinvested into buying more shares and increasing our market capitalisation as well as increasing dividends.  It could be decided by motion to increase this amount but not decrease it until our market capitalisation is too large or the fund staff can earn a full time living wage by working for the fund.  Another 47.5% will be paid out in dividends.  With 5% being paid to the fund operators.  The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created.  25,000 shares will be created and issued at 0.01BTC.  Any future share issues will be decided by motion.  Any major shareholder can ask for a motion and any group of small shareholders can ask for a motion.  The only motions not allowed unless agreed to by the fund operators are on decreasing the growth fund, on closing the fund down or replacing the chief operator (Matthew Holt).

Accounts Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap02rO_j4NLvdGtoZlhpNHZiOXNIMldIU2xsUHkxLVE

A few issues (mainly minor) that hopefully you can fix before unlocking the assets for mods to vote on :

1.  You say you'll invest mainly in securities that have a "strong organic growth plan".  Could you please explain the difference between this and a "strongth growth plan" and how your fund works out whether growth is organic rather than inorganic?  i.e. is "organic" just a buzzword you threw in or does it have some significant meaning?

2.  You say "The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created".  Do you actually mean this - or do you mean 1% of all shares sold?  As written you'd start off with 250 shares - meaning you'd own 100% of the fund , 50% after 250 shares were sold etc.  

3.  You need a close-down plan.

4.  As it claims to be a fund, how is liquidity being provided?  Will some means be provided for investors to sell back their shares at near to NAV/U?  This is of particular concern since the initial tranches of shares being sold is fairly large (more than your lTC fund has sold in the 3 months+ it has been running) so there'll be a price ceiling but no floor is being set.

5.  Is the price of the first 25000 share going to stay fixed at 1.0 even if NAV/U significantly changes?  If so then that prevents any growth in price if NAV/U rises - and means investors have no way to realise any  value from increased NAV/U until the whole 25000 have sold out.  It also means if NAV/U falls you have to continue selling units at 1.0 - even when it's become unrealistic/unattractive- making it very hard to sell any more (as happened with your LTC fund for a few months).

6.  What is the policy on the price of extra shares issued after the first 25000?

7.  What is the fund's policy on buying back shares on the market (linked a bit, but not entirely, to point 4)?  Are managerial shares returned in ratio if this happens? Is there any restriction on whether the manager can sell the shares he is given (obviously relates to previous sentence)?

8.  Do you have any policy on spreading risk / limiting risk per asset and /or per issuer (where one person issues multiple assets)?

9.  Will you only invest in BTC-denominated assets or will you also invest in ones denominated in other crypto-currencies (presently that would be mainly LTC - but obviously that could change over time)?

9.  There should be a statement in the contract that you won't invest in any other asset managed by yourself (it's banned under BTC.CO rules anyway - but should be explicitly stated).

On point 8 you need to make sure you understand the (exchange's) restrictions on long-term investment companies -as your LTC fund is in breach of them.  Main ones are no investing in other stuff you manage and no investing in other long-term investment funds (the 2nd one is what your LTC fund has broken - by holding DMF).  To explain why that rule exists (from my recollection of discussion at the time) any investor in your fund is paying THREE management fees on dividends from assets invested in by DMF's - the asset's own fees, DMF's management fee and then yours on top.  Plus you're charging a fee to manage the fund, then delegating responsibility for investment decisions on a portion of the fund to DMF's management but still taking a fee on the proceeds from that.  Plus your fund's exposure to risk per asset/ asset issuer is no longer entirely in your hands (as you gain/lose exposure when DMF changes its investments).  Plus if you can invest in DMF then DMF could invest in you - then we'd have a feedback situation where both of your prices could move together in an unrealistic manner due entirely to changes in one feeding back to the other and then repeatedly going through the same cycle.

I'm not trying to put you off running the fund - just want to make sure everything's clear before you start.


If this is the case can I cancel my request and get a refund please?  I will build these features into RSM instead in the long term if I can as long as investors agree.  Although I think its unlikely we'll invest in any other mining outfits apart from what we're doing with the RSM dividend investment fund via Pyraming.  Thanks for the post I had answers for all the questions until I got to the last question.

BTW by organic growth I meant using company profits to be reinvested to grow rather than stimulating growth through acquiring debts to seed the growth.  Also the 1% share payment would have been based on issued shares sold from the original IPO lot.  So as 1 share to be paid as every 100 shares were sold.

Please pay refund to - 1KEvvdeY6GfPTTY8qVnqvo1fKjpTZPV8pJ - Thanks.

Yes it is the case - from Asset Issuer terms of service (https://btct.co/create):

"Securities created by the same issuer or organization, in cooperation with the same issuer or organization, or in collusion with the issuer or organization are not to invest in each other on BTC-TC."
Long-term investment securities are not to invest more than 20% of their portfolio into any other single security on BTC-TC.
Long-term investment securities are not to own more than 20% of the outstanding shares of any other single security on BTC-TC."

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
https://btct.co/security/BTCI

Bitcoin Investments - Mining stocks Investment fund

To use the proceeds of the IPO to buy shares in mainly in bitcoin based mining stocks with a strong organic growth plan.   To focus on the soon to be five listed mining stocks on the exchange.  We will also look into other bitcoin securities with a strong growth plan also on other exchanges.  We will try to avoid bonds.  47.5% of the profits made will be reinvested into buying more shares and increasing our market capitalisation as well as increasing dividends.  It could be decided by motion to increase this amount but not decrease it until our market capitalisation is too large or the fund staff can earn a full time living wage by working for the fund.  Another 47.5% will be paid out in dividends.  With 5% being paid to the fund operators.  The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created.  25,000 shares will be created and issued at 0.01BTC.  Any future share issues will be decided by motion.  Any major shareholder can ask for a motion and any group of small shareholders can ask for a motion.  The only motions not allowed unless agreed to by the fund operators are on decreasing the growth fund, on closing the fund down or replacing the chief operator (Matthew Holt).

Accounts Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap02rO_j4NLvdGtoZlhpNHZiOXNIMldIU2xsUHkxLVE

A few issues (mainly minor) that hopefully you can fix before unlocking the assets for mods to vote on :

1.  You say you'll invest mainly in securities that have a "strong organic growth plan".  Could you please explain the difference between this and a "strongth growth plan" and how your fund works out whether growth is organic rather than inorganic?  i.e. is "organic" just a buzzword you threw in or does it have some significant meaning?

2.  You say "The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created".  Do you actually mean this - or do you mean 1% of all shares sold?  As written you'd start off with 250 shares - meaning you'd own 100% of the fund , 50% after 250 shares were sold etc.  

3.  You need a close-down plan.

4.  As it claims to be a fund, how is liquidity being provided?  Will some means be provided for investors to sell back their shares at near to NAV/U?  This is of particular concern since the initial tranches of shares being sold is fairly large (more than your lTC fund has sold in the 3 months+ it has been running) so there'll be a price ceiling but no floor is being set.

5.  Is the price of the first 25000 share going to stay fixed at 1.0 even if NAV/U significantly changes?  If so then that prevents any growth in price if NAV/U rises - and means investors have no way to realise any  value from increased NAV/U until the whole 25000 have sold out.  It also means if NAV/U falls you have to continue selling units at 1.0 - even when it's become unrealistic/unattractive- making it very hard to sell any more (as happened with your LTC fund for a few months).

6.  What is the policy on the price of extra shares issued after the first 25000?

7.  What is the fund's policy on buying back shares on the market (linked a bit, but not entirely, to point 4)?  Are managerial shares returned in ratio if this happens? Is there any restriction on whether the manager can sell the shares he is given (obviously relates to previous sentence)?

8.  Do you have any policy on spreading risk / limiting risk per asset and /or per issuer (where one person issues multiple assets)?

9.  Will you only invest in BTC-denominated assets or will you also invest in ones denominated in other crypto-currencies (presently that would be mainly LTC - but obviously that could change over time)?

9.  There should be a statement in the contract that you won't invest in any other asset managed by yourself (it's banned under BTC.CO rules anyway - but should be explicitly stated).

On point 8 you need to make sure you understand the (exchange's) restrictions on long-term investment companies -as your LTC fund is in breach of them.  Main ones are no investing in other stuff you manage and no investing in other long-term investment funds (the 2nd one is what your LTC fund has broken - by holding DMF).  To explain why that rule exists (from my recollection of discussion at the time) any investor in your fund is paying THREE management fees on dividends from assets invested in by DMF's - the asset's own fees, DMF's management fee and then yours on top.  Plus you're charging a fee to manage the fund, then delegating responsibility for investment decisions on a portion of the fund to DMF's management but still taking a fee on the proceeds from that.  Plus your fund's exposure to risk per asset/ asset issuer is no longer entirely in your hands (as you gain/lose exposure when DMF changes its investments).  Plus if you can invest in DMF then DMF could invest in you - then we'd have a feedback situation where both of your prices could move together in an unrealistic manner due entirely to changes in one feeding back to the other and then repeatedly going through the same cycle.

I'm not trying to put you off running the fund - just want to make sure everything's clear before you start.


If this is the case can I cancel my request?  I will build these features into RSM instead in the long term if I can as long as investors agree.  Although I think its unlikely we'll invest in any other mining outfits apart from what we're doing with the RSM dividend investment fund via Pyraming.  Thanks for the post I had answers for all the questions until I got to the last question.

BTW by organic growth I meant using company profits to be reinvested to grow rather than stimulating growth through acquiring debts to seed the growth.  Also the 1% share payment would have been based on issued shares sold from the original IPO lot.  So as 1 share to be paid as every 100 shares were sold.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
https://btct.co/security/BTCI

Bitcoin Investments - Mining stocks Investment fund

To use the proceeds of the IPO to buy shares in mainly in bitcoin based mining stocks with a strong organic growth plan.   To focus on the soon to be five listed mining stocks on the exchange.  We will also look into other bitcoin securities with a strong growth plan also on other exchanges.  We will try to avoid bonds.  47.5% of the profits made will be reinvested into buying more shares and increasing our market capitalisation as well as increasing dividends.  It could be decided by motion to increase this amount but not decrease it until our market capitalisation is too large or the fund staff can earn a full time living wage by working for the fund.  Another 47.5% will be paid out in dividends.  With 5% being paid to the fund operators.  The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created.  25,000 shares will be created and issued at 0.01BTC.  Any future share issues will be decided by motion.  Any major shareholder can ask for a motion and any group of small shareholders can ask for a motion.  The only motions not allowed unless agreed to by the fund operators are on decreasing the growth fund, on closing the fund down or replacing the chief operator (Matthew Holt).

Accounts Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap02rO_j4NLvdGtoZlhpNHZiOXNIMldIU2xsUHkxLVE

A few issues (mainly minor) that hopefully you can fix before unlocking the assets for mods to vote on :

1.  You say you'll invest mainly in securities that have a "strong organic growth plan".  Could you please explain the difference between this and a "strongth growth plan" and how your fund works out whether growth is organic rather than inorganic?  i.e. is "organic" just a buzzword you threw in or does it have some significant meaning?

2.  You say "The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created".  Do you actually mean this - or do you mean 1% of all shares sold?  As written you'd start off with 250 shares - meaning you'd own 100% of the fund , 50% after 250 shares were sold etc.  

3.  You need a close-down plan.

4.  As it claims to be a fund, how is liquidity being provided?  Will some means be provided for investors to sell back their shares at near to NAV/U?  This is of particular concern since the initial tranches of shares being sold is fairly large (more than your lTC fund has sold in the 3 months+ it has been running) so there'll be a price ceiling but no floor is being set.

5.  Is the price of the first 25000 share going to stay fixed at 1.0 even if NAV/U significantly changes?  If so then that prevents any growth in price if NAV/U rises - and means investors have no way to realise any  value from increased NAV/U until the whole 25000 have sold out.  It also means if NAV/U falls you have to continue selling units at 1.0 - even when it's become unrealistic/unattractive- making it very hard to sell any more (as happened with your LTC fund for a few months).

6.  What is the policy on the price of extra shares issued after the first 25000?

7.  What is the fund's policy on buying back shares on the market (linked a bit, but not entirely, to point 4)?  Are managerial shares returned in ratio if this happens? Is there any restriction on whether the manager can sell the shares he is given (obviously relates to previous sentence)?

8.  Do you have any policy on spreading risk / limiting risk per asset and /or per issuer (where one person issues multiple assets)?

9.  Will you only invest in BTC-denominated assets or will you also invest in ones denominated in other crypto-currencies (presently that would be mainly LTC - but obviously that could change over time)?

9.  There should be a statement in the contract that you won't invest in any other asset managed by yourself (it's banned under BTC.CO rules anyway - but should be explicitly stated).

On point 8 you need to make sure you understand the (exchange's) restrictions on long-term investment companies -as your LTC fund is in breach of them.  Main ones are no investing in other stuff you manage and no investing in other long-term investment funds (the 2nd one is what your LTC fund has broken - by holding DMF).  To explain why that rule exists (from my recollection of discussion at the time) any investor in your fund is paying THREE management fees on dividends from assets invested in by DMF's - the asset's own fees, DMF's management fee and then yours on top.  Plus you're charging a fee to manage the fund, then delegating responsibility for investment decisions on a portion of the fund to DMF's management but still taking a fee on the proceeds from that.  Plus your fund's exposure to risk per asset/ asset issuer is no longer entirely in your hands (as you gain/lose exposure when DMF changes its investments).  Plus if you can invest in DMF then DMF could invest in you - then we'd have a feedback situation where both of your prices could move together in an unrealistic manner due entirely to changes in one feeding back to the other and then repeatedly going through the same cycle.

I'm not trying to put you off running the fund - just want to make sure everything's clear before you start.
sr. member
Activity: 284
Merit: 251
Is it wise to start another investment offering while you have pending scammer accusations? 

Why is it that people think they can repeatedly offer horrible investments and then when they fail, start 2 more?

How many assets are you offering now?

Between you, usagi, & goat, it is amazing anyone invests any BTC in anything anymore.  It's time the exchanges start taking some responsibility for allowing these ponzi operators to continue with this garbage.  I will be avoiding BTC-TC because they are allowing a potential scammer to operate 2 assets on the main exchange and another one on the LTC exchange, all while pending scammer accusations and broken agreements are dangling in the wind.

Please people, do your research and don't invest in things like this.  You are only enabling these individuals to continue scamming the community by pretending to offer "investments" that are nothing more than ponzi's covering each other's losses.  This latest one being an obvious funnel into RSM, only with a lower return.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Sounds interesting, though I'm not sure I'm a buyer with only 47.5% being paid out as dividends. Would you exclude RSM from BTCI's portfolio if/when it gets approved as it's also your security?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
https://btct.co/security/BTCI

Bitcoin Investments - Mining stocks Investment fund

To use the proceeds of the IPO to buy shares in mainly in bitcoin based mining stocks with a strong organic growth plan.   To focus on the soon to be five listed mining stocks on the exchange.  We will also look into other bitcoin securities with a strong growth plan also on other exchanges.  We will try to avoid bonds.  47.5% of the profits made will be reinvested into buying more shares and increasing our market capitalisation as well as increasing dividends.  It could be decided by motion to increase this amount but not decrease it until our market capitalisation is too large or the fund staff can earn a full time living wage by working for the fund.  Another 47.5% will be paid out in dividends.  With 5% being paid to the fund operators.  The funds operators will receive 1% of all shares created.  25,000 shares will be created and issued at 0.01BTC.  Any future share issues will be decided by motion.  Any major shareholder can ask for a motion and any group of small shareholders can ask for a motion.  The only motions not allowed unless agreed to by the fund operators are on decreasing the growth fund, on closing the fund down or replacing the chief operator (Matthew Holt).

Accounts Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap02rO_j4NLvdGtoZlhpNHZiOXNIMldIU2xsUHkxLVE
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