Topic: Butterfly labs did everything they could to make getting a refund impossible. (Read 4642 times)

I read Xian01's post

BFL have no terms and conditions or returns policy on their web site (correct me if you find anything but dead links).
They make it up as they go along.

Is this breaking the USA law?
I know in other countries, Terms and conditions (including returns) & Privacy policy must be clearly displayed in separate links.

Paypal sucks anyway. I have no idea why anyone would actually want to link their bank account with those assholes.  Just use it as a CC processor and if they close the account fuck 'em.

Public Service Announcement:

If you have ordered from Butterfly Labs (BFL) and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).

First ask Butterfly Labs (BFL) for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.

If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with Butterfly Labs (BFL) to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from Butterfly Labs (BFL), here are two:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yes-you-can-get-a-refund-from-bfl-266945
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/butterfly-labs-did-everything-they-could-to-make-getting-a-refund-impossible-272585

PayPal got me a refund, and I was months past the 45-day window.  See here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yes-you-can-get-a-refund-from-bfl-266945

1. Its not that easy, unless you go to a different location to use it, like your family house. Then your good .
As a Buyer on eBay I have won multiple claims, like from crappy chines clones to phones not working and so on.
As a Seller I haven't lost any claim I make sure I get Adult Signature and its Insured on every single thing.
I do trust PayPal, but I never keep more than $200 inside PayPal.

2. Most likely BFL account is frozen and the you can't issue partial refund, if it is, or they are telling BS, have you try sending them a money request?
Also have you talked to PayPal call them, tell them that BFL is trying to issue a Partial Refund and the system wasn't allowing them to do so. They will give you details as you have transaction with BFL.

3. PayPal will always accept money, even if your account is Frozen and/or Limited. Then they'll send them a check after 180 Days. And remember that Negative Balance is on the Buyer Account, not on BFL account.

They can't they need to follow Federal Banking laws,
(Its like having a Bank of America Checking Account that just went negative, they can't access your Bank of America Credit card to cover that negative balance.)

Weekly Order? You could take the money out the second you get it.

Im not a fraud.

How can I?

Did I leave a package at my house, did I?

Did FedEx request it back? No.

Somebody Fuck up (FedEx).

I didn't, how can I be a fraud...dumbass.



If a bank deposits me extra money into my account, Im not going to call them. They Fucked up.

My question do you think if the bank lost your money(deposit), they care enough to help you? No, they will ask for the receipt of the deposit. This happened to me at Wells Fargo Bank.

They are not your friends, most corporation will fuck in the ass if they get the chance. BFL might just be one of them...



What BIZ, your talking about?
I'm not in the newbie section posting ad for 7Gh/10Gh for $400/4BTC, trying to rip people off. Dumbass...

[/quote]

You still fucked your self,

If you purchase it via PayPal with your AMEX, that means that PayPal got chargeback and not BFL.

If this happened that means your PayPal account has a negative balance which you now owe them, if you don't pay up they will freeze your account and then send you to collections.
And make it almost impossible to reopen another account.


[/quote]

I dont agree with your logic.

1) do any of you *really* care if your paypal account is frozen? or closed? big deal..... I can just use another family members account if need be, and that is a big IF. I have had zero luck with paypal on any dispute, as long as they got their money they really do not care. Thats why I only use AMEX on paypal, because I trust paypal as much as BFL. And my paypal is linked to a bank account which I dont keep more than $100 in.

2) BFL actually attempted to refund me 3/4 of the money, but paypal refused the refund because the amounts didn't match, so they sent the money back to BFL twice. Don't ask me why BFL couldnt just refund the correct amount. Don't ask me why paypal couldn't do a partial refund. It got to the point that paypal refused to refund unless it was an exact matching amount, and BFL refused to refund the correct amount (no explanation given).

3) paypal is still accepting new orders for BFL. If paypal indeed ate the chargeback, they will leverage that against new money that is coming into the BFL account. Do you really think paypal are going to give BFL all their weekly order money PLUS ignore the chargebacks against the BFL account and take the hit for BFL? cmon use some logic here.......  paypal will subtract the chargebacks to BFL against future income.

Therefore in the end

a) i dont lose i got my money back
b) paypal doesnt lose they get their money back
c) BFL doesnt lose because they were selling promises, not an actual product.


the end.

Didn't someone just pointed out the law says you can keep stuff you get from mail even if it wasn't meant for you?

You are admitting to fraud on here? 

There goes your trust.  And you are now on my ignore list so I never do business with you, ever.

Thanks for the info 

Going to keep that little link on ICE for when its needed

Per post office regulations, if something comes in the mail that you didn't order, you can either keep it or throw it away, but you have no obligation to return it or pay for it if a bill comes later.  It is a violation of federal law to send something in the mail that was not ordered and follow it up with a bill.  Usually I will offer to send back the box if they mail me or email me a label, (things get delivered to my address incorrectly quite a lot. not sure why.), but if the company is being dicks about it (telling me I have to pay for the merchandise or pay to send it back), then I ask for them to produce a copy of my order requesting the merchandise.  Usually they threaten to sue, so I give them this link I keep handy: https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/MailFraud/fraudschemes/othertypes/UnsolicitedFraud.aspx and tell them that further communications will result in a report to the USPIS.  That usually stops further communications.

More info here: http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

I would presume that FedEX and UPS have to follow the same set of rules since they operate within the monopoly of the USPS (They have to charge a minimum of 6x the rate of a letter for example)

Rest assure, BFL kept the bare minimum in their PayPal account, if any funds at all. For those concerned about BFL's welfare, you'll be able to sleep well tonight fully knowing that all the pre-ordered moneys sent to BFL is still in a safe place, right where Sonny Vleisides put it.

they only freeze accounts for 180 days. if no claims are filed(even if some are filed, they will deducted), then they send the owner the account a check in the amount left frozen.

For those people out their, worry talk to you Credit Card Companies, PayPal will NOT be your friend in this matter.


Your decision loose the Money$$$

or

Loose your PayPal account.

Its not my fault somebody fucked up...  If you get a Bitcoin send to you, will send it back? and be honest.

The problem is that BFL went with PP in the first place.  They (PP) are expensive, not stream lined, and happy to freeze your account for an indefinite time frame.  I am willing to bet that BFL has had many, many orders locked up/frozen in PP and they have never even seen the cash.  It's the design of PP.  They're crooks.  I wouldn't trust my pet fish with PP; and I know of thousands of businesses that will say the same.

Paypal will help you but only if you file the dispute within 45 days of the purchase.  If you ordered in April 2013 and haven't opened a dispute yet, then you have a hard road ahead.  If you paid Paypal with a credit card, then you need to call your credit card company and open a dispute with them.  They will work with Paypal and BFL to get the refund.   If not, then you need to contact the Paypal fraud department.  I think it's [email protected].

And don't expect your April 2013 order to show up any time before December or January.  It ain't gonna happen.

this reminds of the time i brought a $500 office desk from office depot and i had it delivered so they deliver it then the next day they try to deliver another desk then the next day after that they tried to deliver another one somehow they didnt have in the computer it was delivered this happened 3 times i had to tell them seriously this is like the third time you guys have tried to deliver me a desk ive already received

Wow, that is just disgusting and dishonest.

I hope a cargo plane full of used dildos comes crashing down on your head.

This is true.  Just call them.

I called Paypal after they auto-closed the dispute I opened.  They told me to call my credit card company.
I called my credit card company and they immediately credited my account.  They're going to work with PP and BFL. 
It's a 60-90 day process, but I am still pretty confident that BFL will not be able to ship an April 2013 order by December.

I believe everything that is lower than 40MH/s per buck will not be able to / will take longer than 5 months to ROI in the soaring difficulty.
I just punch in the new difficult 50mil into http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ and key in the figures for jallies. Turn out that it will ROI in 58 days if your jally is 5GH/s and 47days if it's 7GH/s...

paypal does have some kind of a insurance system right? if BFL comes out to be a scam. you could ask for a refund right?
i bought 2x jelapenos there for almost 400$ total...
it hurts bad when you see asicminers all arround the world already deliverd, live and kicking. and bfl cant even deliver in time.

ATM their on delivering the backorders from november2012.
so basically they delivered 6 months backorders in 2 months mass production.(from april 2013 till now)
my order was in april so i assume its gonna take them another 2 months to maaaaybe deliver my order? thats what i call fraud and bad project management... by the time 5GH/s is nothing worth.

That's nothing, awhile back I order 200 hard drives and I got honey.

The funny thing is that the honey had UPS labels going to different destination, I contact the seller and he contact UPS.

UPS called me and asked me for more info, I told about the honey, which I think the didn't believe me either.

When they finish asking all the stupid questions,
    I asked them about the Honey, they told me to keep it, being that it was allot I gave it away to the family, 2 days later they call me that if I still had the honey, I only had two left.
 (they came and took my last 2 boxes)





Also 1 year ago order some computer speaker, so when FedEx came it hand me a box, I sign for then he left.
I open the box, it was an Brand New HP Laser Printer, so I figure WTF!.
Around 30mins later the same FedEx truck comes back (im thinking he came for the box he gave me) and tells that he forgot to give my other 2 boxes, so gave me the other boxes (which were the speakers).

So I kept the HP Printer sold it on eBay for $800.

lol well that's not quite the story you led us to believe there was it...

Its is PayPal doesn't like me at all 

Have allot of experience with them, I purchase a computers and the box came empty with some works, I first contact the seller, then eBay, and PayPal, all of them said that I was lying. So I just contacted my Credit Card Company explained the problem, they did a charge back.

and then PayPal send me to collections... Ifs funny those fuckers still call me... been like 5 years now..lol.

Guys, PP will help you.

Not necessarily. If you are speaking to a competent operator and they know you used their card via PayPal they will call a PP representative and coordinate their efforts. If they just go willy nilly and chargeback the transaction your scenario will play out, but hopefully that is not the case for most.

You still fucked your self,

If you purchase it via PayPal with your AMEX, that means that PayPal got chargeback and not BFL.

If this happened that means your PayPal account has a negative balance which you now owe them, if you don't pay up they will freeze your account and then send you to collections.
And make it almost impossible to reopen another account.

Whew! Good thing I bought a pre-order in early July on that via PP. Man, to have to deal with BFL *&* PP? Blech.

90 days to do a chargeback or longer then that with Amex? Can't recall.

If I didn't purchase on AMEX through paypal, I would be toast.

AMEX saved the day for me.


Butterfly labs implosion is now imminent as I bet their new orders are way down, so they don't have cash to keep the scam rolling.

Unless by some miracle they were smart enough to hold onto all those bitcoins they got paid and made a fortune in bitcoin speculation.

But I do not think butterfly labs and smart can ever go into the same sentence without the internet breaking.