Can anyone explain these gambling questions? (Client Seed & RTP)

Kyraishi

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

Also, please explain the RTP (Return to Player) concept. Roll Eyes

When a Slot provider configure the RTP for a Slot to say 95% ..... then a player is supposed to get back 95% of their wagering.. right? ....or is the RTP a pool of players that are playing that specific Slot? .....and the pool of 95% wagered are distributed to the players playing that Slot? (or does the pool consist of all the money that are wagered at all the games that are offered by that specific Slot provider) ?

Hope someone can explain this to us?

Ps : I give Merit to quality posts!

Absolutely not.

Just think about a logically - why would a casino be willing to leave such a big loophole in their provably fair system for anyone to exploit?

The outcome is not determined by the client seed alone and no matter how you change it, you have no control over the final outcome. It's just a feature for comfort and to demonstrate that the rolls indeed are provably fair since the casino aren't the ones choosing the client seed for you.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 25, 2021, 02:36:48 AM

Quote from: lixer on August 25, 2021, 12:27:45 AM

but the server seed is always unique for each bet and every player so results are random.

It shouldn't be. It should be the same server seed with a incrementing nonce until you choose to reveal it and get a new one.

Pretty much nobody changes their client seed every bet. Most people are assigned one or pick one themselves and run for an entire betting session on the same seed. Some people may change it if they are having a run of bad luck, erroneously deducing that they have an "unlucky" seed or something similar, and some people may change it after x number of bets or x amount of time, but no one is changing it every bet.

With that in mind, let's say I use the same client seed for 100 bets. The server obviously knows what my client seed is. If they give me a unique server seed for every bet, then they can simply brute force a bunch of seeds and then choose to give me server seeds which, when combined with my client seed, will result in losing bets. This is avoided by the server seed being the same from the first bet, and a nonce which increments by 1, giving the gambling site no control over the final outcome.

What lixer says in your quote is wrong, on Stake the server seed is not unique for each bet. In fact, the sever seed doesn't change until you claim a new one or change your client seed with the "Rotate seed pair" function, so what you are describing here can't happen on Stake. Of course when you change your seed or claim a new server seed the hash of the new server seed is available.

pinggoki

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AFAIK client seeds don't work that way. They are merely measures taken by the site to induce an added layer of fairness within the game and to also catch off people who are trying to hack the system by exploiting bugs and glitches alike, since each address generates a different and random client seed specific only to that particular address. Now for RTP that basically means the percentage of the bet that gamblers could acquire per win, so in your case where you supposed a 95% RTP, the gambler is slated to get at most 95% of what he wagered, but there are instances where the winnings are evened out across players when volatility or other issues come in like what some people here have told you.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 25, 2021, 02:17:40 AM

Quote from: TheGreatPython on August 25, 2021, 01:43:14 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

The server seed for each player is different. Also, there is a nonce, so basically if you use the same client and server seed, you will still get different results because the nonce increase with each bet.

Once you verify your bets (reveal the server seed) then the server seed is changed for you.

RTP is a very simple concept. The return expected to the player for each bet the player makes is called the RTP. A 95% RTP means on wagering 100 coins you shall get back 95 of them back. This doesn't mean you will always get back 95 though, because it depends on the volatility as well. So basically you might end up having 50 coins after wagering 100 while another user may get 150 so that evens out things.

I am a little surprised a legendary member is asking such simple questions. But I understand not everyone gambles or is aware of the provably fair mechanism.

You obviously have a very construed idea of what a Legendary members rank means and what the RTP is. A Legendary member only indicates that the member has been with the forum for a long time and it does not indicate that they should be an expert in all concepts (Crypto or non-Crypto) Roll Eyes

Do your self a favor and read some of the more detailed explanations on what the RTP is for players.... in the posts above you, before you post nonsense like this in my thread to acquire +posts for your signature campaign. Roll Eyes

Take particular attention to the posts that was given Merit, so that you can learn something new. Wink

I would agree with the OP in this. There's no hurt in learning a new concept whether you be a newbie or a legendary member in this forum. The fact remains that it is always better to learn and ask for help when you need it instead of doing things on your own and incurring losses as a result. This forum is made for the same reason anyway, and not just to promote other crypto projects.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: TheGreatPython on August 25, 2021, 01:43:14 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

The server seed for each player is different. Also, there is a nonce, so basically if you use the same client and server seed, you will still get different results because the nonce increase with each bet.

Once you verify your bets (reveal the server seed) then the server seed is changed for you.

[...]

I am a little surprised a legendary member is asking such simple questions. But I understand not everyone gambles or is aware of the provably fair mechanism.

I don't think those questions are so simple and at least it shows that Kakmakr is really gambling unlike many spammers here. What you are saying above is not true, there are several provably fair games on Stake and elsewhere, where the server seed is the same for all players of the game. So it would be interesting to know which game from Stake Kakmakr is referring to precisely.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: lixer on August 25, 2021, 12:27:45 AM

but the server seed is always unique for each bet and every player so results are random.

It shouldn't be. It should be the same server seed with a incrementing nonce until you choose to reveal it and get a new one.

Pretty much nobody changes their client seed every bet. Most people are assigned one or pick one themselves and run for an entire betting session on the same seed. Some people may change it if they are having a run of bad luck, erroneously deducing that they have an "unlucky" seed or something similar, and some people may change it after x number of bets or x amount of time, but no one is changing it every bet.

With that in mind, let's say I use the same client seed for 100 bets. The server obviously knows what my client seed is. If they give me a unique server seed for every bet, then they can simply brute force a bunch of seeds and then choose to give me server seeds which, when combined with my client seed, will result in losing bets. This is avoided by the server seed being the same from the first bet, and a nonce which increments by 1, giving the gambling site no control over the final outcome.

Kakmakr

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Quote from: TheGreatPython on August 25, 2021, 01:43:14 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

The server seed for each player is different. Also, there is a nonce, so basically if you use the same client and server seed, you will still get different results because the nonce increase with each bet.

Once you verify your bets (reveal the server seed) then the server seed is changed for you.

RTP is a very simple concept. The return expected to the player for each bet the player makes is called the RTP. A 95% RTP means on wagering 100 coins you shall get back 95 of them back. This doesn't mean you will always get back 95 though, because it depends on the volatility as well. So basically you might end up having 50 coins after wagering 100 while another user may get 150 so that evens out things.

I am a little surprised a legendary member is asking such simple questions. But I understand not everyone gambles or is aware of the provably fair mechanism.

You obviously have a very construed idea of what a Legendary members rank means and what the RTP is. A Legendary member only indicates that the member has been with the forum for a long time and it does not indicate that they should be an expert in all concepts (Crypto or non-Crypto) Roll Eyes

Do your self a favor and read some of the more detailed explanations on what the RTP is for players.... in the posts above you, before you post nonsense like this in my thread to acquire +posts for your signature campaign. Roll Eyes

Take particular attention to the posts that was given Merit, so that you can learn something new. Wink

TheGreatPython

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

The server seed for each player is different. Also, there is a nonce, so basically if you use the same client and server seed, you will still get different results because the nonce increase with each bet.

Once you verify your bets (reveal the server seed) then the server seed is changed for you.

RTP is a very simple concept. The return expected to the player for each bet the player makes is called the RTP. A 95% RTP means on wagering 100 coins you shall get back 95 of them back. This doesn't mean you will always get back 95 though, because it depends on the volatility as well. So basically you might end up having 50 coins after wagering 100 while another user may get 150 so that evens out things.

I am a little surprised a legendary member is asking such simple questions. But I understand not everyone gambles or is aware of the provably fair mechanism.

lixer

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Quote from: Maus0728 on August 24, 2021, 09:46:37 AM

I don't think there will be a case when a certain number of people share the same client seed. As far as I know, the 'client-seed' is created at random by the browser that is being used by the player. I'm not sure whether other individuals will share the same client seed with each other because they still believe that a specific 'client-seed' has an underlying luck in it.

Quote from: https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

Clientseed - provided by your browser and adjusted by you

Client seed is something you enter into the casino. A lot of casinos offer a random client seed though to make things easier for the players but I would always suggest everyone to put their own client seed when starting a new betting session.

And no, every player uses their own client seed which may or may not be same but the server seed is always unique for each bet and every player so results are random.

I remember someone cleaned Primedice years ago when he somehow was able to get the same server seed again and again which who's hash he already knew before betting.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

I would said it depends on the game, in games where several gamblers play at the same time during a round, the server seed is the same for all players of the round. But which game from Stake are you talking about precisely please?

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

Also, please explain the RTP (Return to Player) concept. Roll Eyes

When a Slot provider configure the RTP for a Slot to say 95% ..... then a player is supposed to get back 95% of their wagering.. right? ....or is the RTP a pool of players that are playing that specific Slot? .....and the pool of 95% wagered are distributed to the players playing that Slot? (or does the pool consist of all the money that are wagered at all the games that are offered by that specific Slot provider) ?

Hope someone can explain this to us?

The RTP is just what the house doesn't keep to itself, that is to say everything except the house edge. So basically RTP = 1 - HE. If one game has a RTP of 95%, it means the average user will lose 5% of its bankroll on the long run.

hello_good_sir

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

Also, please explain the RTP (Return to Player) concept. Roll Eyes

When a Slot provider configure the RTP for a Slot to say 95% ..... then a player is supposed to get back 95% of their wagering.. right? ....or is the RTP a pool of players that are playing that specific Slot? .....and the pool of 95% wagered are distributed to the players playing that Slot? (or does the pool consist of all the money that are wagered at all the games that are offered by that specific Slot provider) ?

Hope someone can explain this to us?

1. Absolutely not. Having the same client seed does not guarantee the same results from each roll, because as you said there is also a server seed in play here.

2. RTP is simply a measure of expected value. It has nothing to do with how profits are distributed over a fixed amount of time.

If you have RTP of 95% then on average, over time, you would see 5% of total gambling volume being transformed into profits for the casino. Note how it is "on average, over time". There is absolutely no guarantees that within a year's time, the casino profits will be 5%. It could be 100%, 0%, or -100% if the system is truly provably random.

mu_enrico

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 02:16:26 PM

So the RNG generates numbers to correspond to the symbols on the reel of the slot machine and that ..combined with the Slots RTP will determine if you win or not? (So in theory RNG + RTP + Client Seed + Server Seed = outcome) ?

That is a massive amount of calculations to be done in a split second, before each bet result are shown. Roll Eyes

Who determines what the RTP will be for every Slot in a casino? Do the provider and the Casino negotiate this before they "rent" the use of the Slot .. or is the RTP fixed for every Slot when it is developed? (In short... can the Casino and Slot provider ...alter or re-configure the RTP for these Slots)?

You cannot mix concept of hash games and mainstream RNG slots. If about hash games Stake's explanation somewhere in help section (for example) should be clear enough how they calculate those hash.

However, for both, the symbol is only a representation of the number calculated either from hashes or RNG. Basically, when you click the spin button, the system will calculate the number, and then show the symbols. That's why you can see the result before the animation end, thus to solve this, the casino shows "in play" text instead of your balance. It's not fun if you peek the result before the animation end.

The developer PnG, Pragmatic, etc., set the RTP, but some of them have more than one variant RTP for one title. For example Pragmatic and NoLimit City have ~94% and ~96% RTP variant. The casino pick which variant they want to use. PnG, however, can have custom RTP set from the config (and the casino set this AFAIK).

o_e_l_e_o

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To expand on arallmuus's already great answer: There is no RNG directly involved in calculating the outcome of your spin/roll/whatever. The site generates a server seed and shows you a hash of the server seed. You can then pick a client seed. Usually, the site then combines the server seed and client seed along with a nonce, hashes the whole thing, before taking the last x number of characters from the resulting hash and turning that in to the result of the spin/roll/whatever. The equation that they use to do this should be freely available. At any time you can choose to reveal the server seed. Once you know the server seed, which you can verify is correct by comparing to the hash of the server seed which you already knew, you can perform the calculations involving the two seeds and the nonce yourself, and confirm that the outcomes of your bets do indeed match what they are supposed to match.

The only thing that can be random is the selection of the seeds. Once the seeds are selected, then every outcome, regardless of how many times you bet, is already predetermined.

arallmuus

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 02:16:26 PM

(So in theory RNG + RTP + Client Seed + Server Seed = outcome) ?

In provably fair games / slots, the outcomes are calculated based on Client Seed + server seed.

In simple term here is how it works

A + B = C0;C1;C2;C3

A = Client seed
B = Server seed
C = The outcome and the number indicates the nonce

If you change either client or server seed or both after few rolls then the result will start from C0 again with the new seed because the nonce will reset back to 0

As for RTP, thats pretty similar to House edge if you are not familiar with what RTP means. 95% RTP simply means 5% house edge. 100-95 = 5%

Kakmakr

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Quote from: mu_enrico on August 24, 2021, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

When a Slot provider configure the RTP for a Slot to say 95%

RTP is specific for one game/title, thus affect all players playing in a particular game. Let's say Salty Bonanza has 95% RTP.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

a player is supposed to get back 95% of their wagering.. right?

No, it's no fun if that's the case. A Salty Bonanza player can have 200% RTP or more in one playing session, depend on his luck. In slots world, we call it "live RTP."
The 95% is "theoretical RTP."

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

or is the RTP a pool of players that are playing that specific Slot? .....and the pool of 95% wagered are distributed to the players playing that Slot?

It's not the most accurate explanation, but you can say it like that.
The more valid explanation would be the machine (a particular game title) designed to give 95% back to the players if we assume infinite (or a very large number of) spins.
There's no actual pool since online slots are based on RNG, thus even if the title is just released, you can hit jackpot if the RNG God blesses you.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

(or does the pool consist of all the money that are wagered at all the games that are offered by that specific Slot provider) ?

(1) Theoretical RTP is specific to one particular game, (2) There's no pool.
The more valid question would be if they use the same RNG server, for all games, for all traffic? If yes, then the provider "pooled" all players' result in one server.

So the RNG generates numbers to correspond to the symbols on the reel of the slot machine and that ..combined with the Slots RTP will determine if you win or not? (So in theory RNG + RTP + Client Seed + Server Seed = outcome) ?

That is a massive amount of calculations to be done in a split second, before each bet result are shown. Roll Eyes

Who determines what the RTP will be for every Slot in a casino? Do the provider and the Casino negotiate this before they "rent" the use of the Slot .. or is the RTP fixed for every Slot when it is developed? (In short... can the Casino and Slot provider ...alter or re-configure the RTP for these Slots)?

YOSHIE

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

Hope someone can explain this to us?

There are two questions regarding gambling.
1. Client Seed
2. RTP

For the first OP: regarding the game 'Client Seed', detailed information can be seen and studied below, hope it helps.

Quote from: akhjob on August 30, 2019, 01:07:04 PM

You could get a clear idea on how provably fair works in a dicesite from: https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

So coming to your question regarding the purpose of Client Seed, let's assume that there is no client seed but only server seed and nounce taken for output calculation. You play several rounds and lose heavily so you change the client seed, once again you lose without any profits. If that's the case, what will you tell others? You'll most probably tell that site only gives bad seeds and that they are programmed to incur hefty losses or that the site is scam.
But by providing client seed(which could be adjusted by you) you are deciding the server seed's outcome not the gambling site. The server seeds outcome varies with the client seeds you use. So you can't actually blame the site being unfair to you.
To sum it up, Client seeds are made available to show that the site is being fair or say to build users trust.

Topic: Provably fair: purpose of client seed?

And the second about the 'RTP' casino game you can also learn about below.

RETURN TO PLAYER (RTP) AND HIT FREQUENCY: WHAT DO THESE MEAN?

Quote

RETURN TO PLAYER (RTP)
Return to Player (RTP) is the term casinos use to describe the percentage of all the wagered money a VLT or slot machine will pay back to players over time. For example, if you make a hundred $1 bets on a machine on which the RTP is 90%, you might expect to get back about $90 in wins. Of course, both house advantage and RTP are generally calculated over the long term. Almost anything can happen in the short term (see Short Term Volatility versus Long Term Predictability), so you should only ever bet with money you’re prepared to lose.

You may have already noticed that RTP is really just the flip side of house advantage. If a machine has a 20% house advantage, then the average RTP will be 80%, meaning that over time the machine will keep about 20% of all money bet and will return the other 80% to players in wins.

Hope it helps for you.

palle11

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ...

I do not consider this to be possible. The client seed should serve as a players personal identify that will be recognized by the server incase the player is signing in afresh, so it will not be the same for other players. It is also as the wallet phrase or seed to a wallet. Except you have a personal issue on such then we could see snapshot. But that is how I understand your question. The seed gets generated and recognizes the codes on it to accept or reject when imputing wrongly.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right?

No. Because:

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

(Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

The server seed differs between users.

On any good gambling site, you can choose to reveal the server seed at any time you like. Once you have done this, you can use the revealed server seed along with your client seed to confirm the results of all your previous bets, hence making the site provably fair. Obviously, after you reveal the server seed, the server must generate a new hidden seed for your next rolls, otherwise you could calculate the results before you bet.

If the gambling site only generated a single server seed for every single customer to use, they would have to update it constantly whenever any customer clicked "reveal", meaning that every other customer would be constantly using different server seeds and therefore be unable to confirm that all their bets were provably fair.

Maus0728

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I don't think there will be a case when a certain number of people share the same client seed. As far as I know, the 'client-seed' is created at random by the browser that is being used by the player. I'm not sure whether other individuals will share the same client seed with each other because they still believe that a specific 'client-seed' has an underlying luck in it.

Quote from: https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

Clientseed - provided by your browser and adjusted by you

mu_enrico

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

When a Slot provider configure the RTP for a Slot to say 95%

RTP is specific for one game/title, thus affect all players playing in a particular game. Let's say Salty Bonanza has 95% RTP.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

a player is supposed to get back 95% of their wagering.. right?

No, it's no fun if that's the case. A Salty Bonanza player can have 200% RTP or more in one playing session, depend on his luck. In slots world, we call it "live RTP."
The 95% is "theoretical RTP."

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

or is the RTP a pool of players that are playing that specific Slot? .....and the pool of 95% wagered are distributed to the players playing that Slot?

It's not the most accurate explanation, but you can say it like that.
The more valid explanation would be the machine (a particular game title) designed to give 95% back to the players if we assume infinite (or a very large number of) spins.
There's no actual pool since online slots are based on RNG, thus even if the title is just released, you can hit jackpot if the RNG God blesses you.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 24, 2021, 06:10:48 AM

(or does the pool consist of all the money that are wagered at all the games that are offered by that specific Slot provider) ?

(1) Theoretical RTP is specific to one particular game, (2) There's no pool.
The more valid question would be if they use the same RNG server, for all games, for all traffic? If yes, then the provider "pooled" all players' result in one server.

Kakmakr

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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

A site like "Stake" provides a feature where you can change your "Client Seed" ..... so in theory, if say 1000 people use the same "Client Seed" ... then all those gamblers that are sharing the same seed, are supposed to win and lose at the same time... right? (Does the Server Seed differ from user to user too.. or is it the same for all the users on the site?)

Also, please explain the RTP (Return to Player) concept. Roll Eyes

When a Slot provider configure the RTP for a Slot to say 95% ..... then a player is supposed to get back 95% of their wagering.. right? ....or is the RTP a pool of players that are playing that specific Slot? .....and the pool of 95% wagered are distributed to the players playing that Slot? (or does the pool consist of all the money that are wagered at all the games that are offered by that specific Slot provider) ?

Hope someone can explain this to us?

Ps : I give Merit to quality posts!

Topic: Can anyone explain these gambling questions? (Client Seed & RTP) (Read 231 times)