Topic: Can bitcoin exist without fiat (Read 410 times)

I agree with you. The future is digital, so Bitcoin will surely remain and be more prominent in years to come. But pending the time, they both should continue working side-to-side as there always will be the need for fiat for local transactions. So traders can easily convert to the country local currency and have his/her transaction carried out. Remember, not all countries accept Bitcoin yet.

It's very possible for Bitcoin to exist without Fiat but can that be done now???

The big answer is NO, There's alot to be done before adopting Bitcoin as a general acceptable means of exchange, the world's going global so that wouldn't be impossible for people to adjust to though most person's would find difficulty trying to adjust to using Bitcoin.
I'd rather both are used instead of one over the other.

The most difference between Bitcoin and fiat is that Fiat money is centralized controlled by the bank. And there is official regulation and law of fiat itself as a national currency of every country.
on the other hand, Bitcoin is decentralized, not controlled by a bank or somebody.
And one of the reasons for creating Bitcoin is because of fiat myself, the dominance of banks, and also the centralization.

And if about can Bitcoin exist without fiat?
I cannot answer it because it may influence the reasons for the Bitcoin creation.
And if you mean that fiat will disappear someday, can still Bitcoin exist? yes if fiat is disappeared all around the world. But if fiat is disappeared from this world, is this world still exist also? Or there is another kind of life? Abd Bitcoin becomes the only currency in the world.
Bt I am a little bit confused to imagine it because so far we always give the value of Bitcoin itself with fiat and we can always convert Bitcoin to fiat in order to cash out to banks and use it for daily needs.

This is why the current monetary system is so terrible. BTC as a cryptocurrency has all the properties of fiat money. Even if you don't care about the current rate of inflation and that is a pretty high level. Even if you don't care about that exchange rates are determined by monopoly banks.  One day they will be defeated. That day is coming soon. They may have a temporary resistance but the future is the future, and Bitcoin will become the new money for the people and not governments.

There are chances for accepting it as one of the currencies all use along with fiats. It would take time to completely accept Bitcoin or any other crypto currecines as a currency by many countries. However, before the govt announces they accept Bitcoin, all citizens of the same country must be using Biitcoin. Bitcoin might be used as an asset rather than  using it as a currency..

I think it's better if they co-exist together. Traders will always feel the need of exchanging their bitcoin to cash, and cash to bitcoin to run local and offline transactions.

I think that BTC has even more than that and one day it will even replace fiat, by 2050 as crypto experts say. I'll quote "An astonishing 54% of the panel thinks hyperbitcoinization — the moment that Bitcoin overtakes global finance — will happen by 2050".

Fiat money is not necessarily physical money, it can be of different shapes and forms, for example, pieces, banknotes, spreadsheet entries, liabilities in the central bank's balance sheet to name a few. As you may notice, half of what I mentioned is virtual forms of money. What makes it "fiat money" is the government's decree. They, in effect, say everything we call money must be regarded so, and if you disagree you will find yourself in jail." That is why you consider a piece of paper or a database entry real money, you are obligated to use it as means of payment despite the obvious absurdity of the situation. Money is supposed to be a frame of reference, that is, a means with which to calculate the prices of goods. When governments play with the supply of money, they change these units of measurement and artificially distort the prices. Bitcoin is different because nobody can arbitrarily play with its characteristics, it remains, all the time, a reliable frame of reference.

The difference between fiat and bitcoin is that fiat money is a physical money like for example:
* Canadian dollar
* US dollar
* PHP
* Thailand bat
And so on, while bitcoin is a virtual or digital money currency that was created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto.
Bitcoin and fiat are completely different, it is true that they work like brothers. However even without the fiat existence, the bitcoin can still exist but right now at the moment fiat money is highly needed for own needs like goods and other services that is why i understood why others tends to think that bitcoin cannot exist without fiat but then again in my own perspective i still do believe that bitcoin could still exist. It is unique in its own way.

Your question is very sensitive and at the same time makes no sense to me.

So here goes, I ask you again "can gold work without fiat money". What do you say, after I asked that.......! Think about it.

I don't think why people ask something about Bitcoin and unprofessional fiat, don't they think Bitcoin was created to make it easier for people to make super fast online transactions, without carrying fiat money in one suitcase and anywhere you can make transactions, based on the exchange of fiat money.

OP Of course if you think so sure you are embarrassed to ask like that, fiat is used all over the world with different names and fiat value in every country, while Bitcoin is created under one name and limited supply is used by all countries, of course Bitcoin cannot operate / function in exchange and trade without fiat, and also this can happen to other things, such as food, drinks, vehicles etc., can't function without fiat, that's weird.

Bitcoin did exist because of problems in fiat like being centralized compared to being decentralised. Well, it's not because of fiat but the problem it face. There are two possible answers for this question, bitcoin could exist without fiat and bitcoin existed because of fiat. I already explained the other reason why bitcoin existed which is bitcoin existed not because of fiat currency.

Hmm this is actually an interesting question!

But to better understand the answer, we must first discussed on what "fiat" is all about. Fiat is a representation of money which has a value recognized around the world. Since it is the standard of currency used worldwide, every country has their respective value of money depending on several factors (e.g. inflation, gold reserves, etc.). Since fiat is a representation of money, we can now answer your question if BTC can exist without fiat.

The long answer is YES! It can definitely exist without fiat but there has to be some other representation of value which is BTC's equivalent. That could be anything which is in replacement of fiat.

Yes, right now value of BTC is measured in fiat. So its difficult for BTC to exist on its own right. Going back to Satoshi whitepaper, bitcoin was designed as p2p cash transfer system. BTC has not token its own value yet, like we cant say this car worth is 1.5 BTC or a cup of coffee cost 0.0001 BTC.
That's just my 2 cents

Bitcoin can completely exist without fiat. Moreover, in my opinion, fiat is hindering the development of bitcoin. The price of bitcoin depends on how much bitcoin is sold or bought. If there was no fiat, bitcoin would simply have been the world's main currency. There would be no such price spikes as it is now. Maybe I'm wrong.

I suppose your title would have been enough to give great answers --- but your OP leaves me in complete perplexity to understand your common reasoning that when combined with your misinformation and your ability to autoresponder to your conjecture in that same OP and then you walk away of that analysis to fall into a new question that is pregnant with the first, two different births, yes, two questions, the title and the closing of the OP.

You ask yourself, you analyze and you answer yourself, but even if you come to a conclusion (according to your analysis) with bitcoin, which should be decisive, ou come back and ask the same thing. Oh, no! bis...


No.

No, they are not related even if your reasoning wants to do it, that's why you get confused.


ooh!! Yes, bitcoin on the Bitcoin network.

That's not really correct. You can easily earn Bitcoin and spend it, without ever using an exchange.

Also the way that 'we value Bitcoin in fiat' is by taking numbers of recent Bitcoin sales of exchanges. If there was no fiat to trade Bitcoin with, people would trade Bitcoin against other stuff and that way the value could also be determined.

I agree that right now "fiat and bitcoin work hand in hand" but not sure it will always stay this way. It's certainly possible (from the Bitcoin side at least) to be independent from fiat - which was the original question.

Not really because we mostly buy Bitcoin with fiat. Since fiat is the currency we use in obtaining goods and services. Bitcoin can't really work without it . Fiat and Bitcoin will work in hand to hand

Inasmuch as I agree with you on certain salient points you have made, I want you to clarify some question which I think will better our understanding of this topic:
1. Without fiat currency, how do you measure the value of Bitcoin?
2. I understand that many crypto enthusiasts are looking forward to mainstream adoption of cryptocurrency. Do you think that when that day comes, countries will jettison their currency complete and adopt Bitcoin?

When you clarify this, I feel we will be getting a clearer understanding of the place of both cryptocurrency and fiat currency.

OP needs little research about Bitcoin technology IMO. Then you will realize quickly if that kind of question comes to your mind. In the current situation, Bitcoin existence on the Blockchain. As we know Bitcoin Blockchain is decentralized which has stored into a computer network called a node. Since each node has a copy of the whole Bitcoin Blockchain so Bitcoin will exist forever till the existence of the internet. So we can say technically Bitcoin will exist forever if the internet exists in the world. It doesn't matter either fiat exists or not.

Now come to the point, fiat has been using to exchange Bitcoin or to determine the value of Bitcoin. If fiat does not exist anymore then something else would be used to evaluate the value of Bitcoin. There is a possibility if fiat no exist then Bitcoin will use more widely although it's quite impossible to disable fiat worldwide. Even there will not be paper money, but definitely there will be a few alternative centralized digital currencies.

Hey, this is a great point for Bitcoin in my opinion!
As far as I know, it is much easier for a blind person to use a mobile Bitcoin wallet to pay somewhere than to use cash.

They are able to use smartphones very well due to all the 'Accessibility' features (especially on iOS) while paper cash is hard to distinguish just based on feel. Like, what is a 50$ note, and what is a 20$ etc.

As far as I know though, the preferred method for most is to just use a credit card to swipe over the reader. Since there are Bitcoin credit cards, this would work with BTC as well!

Considering the accessibility of cryptocurrency to some, i can say cryptocurrency is not completely accessible to all. Take for instance, the aged who do not care to learn anything new and those most importantly without vision who cannot make use of a digital cryptocurrency wallet and their only option for a physical transaction is fiat currency that they can touch. Because bitcoin and other cryptocurrency developer's still have issues like this unsolved, bitcoin cannot exist without the traditional fiat.

Bitcoin is definitely not like physical money. It is digital money. Bitcoin is all that fiat is not. So I don't quite agree that the two work like brothers and sisters, although I should also admit that many people nowadays are appreciating Bitcoin not because of Bitcoin itself but because its native currency which is also called Bitcoin has a very high price in fiat. That's something that makes Bitcoin more attractive. However, Bitcoin could function very well without fiat. It was not designed to only function hand in hand with fiat.

Actually bitcoin can exist without because no transaction fiat currency can as well do and bitcoin can't do that, without purchasing of local needs with fiat because i strongly believe that so many person's is still ignorant of bitcoin but in exception of that bitcoin can be use to afford anything fiat can afford, in terms of exchanges of fiat to Good's, we can equally exchanges bitcoin without converting to fiat to car, or any other thing we really wants.

That is a wrong conclusion. How do you measure the value of fiat currencies, say dollars?

The difference between fiat current and Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is decentralized digital money while fiat is backed by the government ad can be held.
Bitcoin may exist and may not without the existence of fiat because people will always search for a perfect alternative and it the search for an alternative when the government was not able to provide a proper solution to inflation is what led to the birth of Bitcoin.

Yes, base on Satoshi's opinion when he introduced Bitcoin. Besides, fiat carries/represent the traditional symbol of every country so the government won't want crypto to dethrone fiat.

For the time being, no cryptocurrency has effectively overtaken fiat in any part of the world. In the end, it may be payment apps like SPEDN which most dramatically open up cryptocurrency payments to real-world applications.

It can exist without fiat when people find another way how to measure Bitcoin value. So far it is bind to us dollar. If we tell Bitcoin value in teslas and it will be a prime exchange asset, then fiat is no longer needed. But that scenario wont happen. Take gold for example - still its value is told in exchange to fiat. And to me Bitcoin equals gold.

I agree

I don't know if they're all ignorant, or if it's all this 'investing is so risky, just save up your (safe) fiat money' kind of narrative that is prevalent in many parts of the world. But yeah many people seem to agree with you that inflation is needed for the economy; just my ignorance as of why that is the case.

Interesting, I would ask you why, but I think that's outside the scope of this thread and the information should most probably be out there, so I have to do more reading up on this first beofre asking more questions

Both of them are very interesting. 

Anyone who complains their cash-savings have no longer the same purchasing power is ignorant the least. There has to be inflation, but not to over-do it. Steady inflation is economically healthy. Hyperinflation and deflation are two extremities. (Although Bitcoin isn't exactly deflationary; its inflation is just resistant to any authorities)

That's what I was mainly pointing to. I can't imagine of a society where there aren't fiat currencies, but only Bitcoin. I find it very problematic.

What is your argument on why BTC can't stand without fiat?
Do you mean in the current time where the economy is based on USD, EUR, GBP, etc., so people calculate exchange rate and / or need to exchange their fiat funds to BTC to pay with Bitcoin or do you think there are essential technological limits to Bitcoin that don't allow it to work as a standalone currency?

While we have heard many interesting arguments from various people so far, I still only heard your opinion and beliefs but no real argument.

I agree, I have the same hope as well!
To be totally honest, I have to read up on the exact arguments for inflation, but I heard before that it's kind of needed, though I intuitively don't see why that should be the case. But I admit my knowledge of finance is not as good as the one of technology, which is my main field

Oh right, sorry, it was someone before you that said they thought there will be 'government cryptos' etc., I agree fiat is not suited for savings, but somehow most people do save up straight cash either at home or in the bank account, which is obviously financially terrible esp. when saving up for a long time.

I am talking about a society where people work for BTC and pay in BTC - similar to how in Europe, they work for € and pay in €, so the exchange rate EUR / USD is irrelevant in most day to day scenarios. What it ultimately comes down to (in my opinion) is time: The time one works for a certain amount of currency. So if they have a direct feel for how much work results in a certain amount of BTC (since they're paid in BTC) it will be much more intuitive and not needed to calculate exchange rates.

Fiat currencies are just a failed experiment in it's final years of existence, and before fiat people used gold, silver and other shiny precious metals that existed just fine alone.
Then some people who think they are smart, decided to steal all gold and precious metal from people and replace it with IOU paper, than they removed gold backing and opened one big can of worms.
It is like the all system created was created for some elite criminals, same way like taxes are becoming higher to the point when even air will be taxed.
Than came Bitcoin, that can function with or without fiat currencies, and I would not consider that as sibling to fiat system.
Some people even did experiments living only from Bitcoin for some time, and they could survive just fine, there are even communities trying to be only crypto and tax-free but it seems that government parasites don't like that
If enough people decides to use only Bitcoin, there is nothing they can do to prevent this - Vires In Numeris.

Both bitcoin and fiat are the instruments with which people can measure the value of the products they would like to obtain. In the case of bitcoin, however, you can't correctly estimate what the "real" price of goods is because bitcoin hasn't yet been adopted by and spread enough amongst people. Currently, fiat is used as a frame of reference to calculate the value of bitcoin. But if for some reason, fiat is no longer in existence, people can readily start to use bitcoin as a common unit of account. Bitcoin is highly divisible, which makes it an effective means of satisfying an economy of any scale. So, what is the main difference between these two? Both serve for facilitating exchanges, measurement of value, but bitcoin is more honest because the government can't control it and change it.

Maybe crypto make total replace in fiat market

Exactly you have speaking my mind, some person's says bitcoin is different from fiat, yes i believe that point but without fiat bitcoin can't standby.

We'll see how this goes and I hope Bitcoin starts being seen as a more significant currency than just a magic internet one. Although, you'll find me in disagreement with deflationary currencies in todays' societies.

But, I never said that governments should make their own crypto. I just said that if you want to save up, you can buy gold, Bitcoin, etc. There's no reason to keep a currency whose inflation can be fluctuated at any moment.

I think that's an exaggeration.

Yes, no USD references directly, but indirectly you'll have to calculate the exchange rate of BTC/USD to buy or sell a product in BTC.

intersting question that i also curious about this
but if you guys said Yes bitcoin can exist without fiat how bitcoin have value i think right now bitcoin have value because people trust it and buy it with fiat its like bitcoin being underlayed by fiat right


and yes some merchant that accept bitcoin on average exchange instantly to fiat

If you feel difficult to make a post, please do reading or searching first.

• Read before posting: Newbies - Read before posting
• Search before posting: [Guide] Searching effectively

Bitcoin is a digital or more precisely crypto currency. It is not a physical asset like fiat.

Main differences

• Bitcoin total supply is fixed (21M), fiat currency total supply is infinite, and hyper inflated.
• Nobody can seize your Bitcoin in your non custodial wallet but they can seize your fiat in bank accounts, ie.
• With Bitcoin, you have an asset. With fiat, you have liability, somewhat.

[1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply
[2] https://www.lopp.net/bitcoin-information/recommended-wallets.html
[3] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/purchasing-power-of-the-u-s-dollar-over-time/

It's just a name so Bitcoin is Bitcoin, with or without fiat. It's there because satoshi created a blockchain, and name its currency is Bitcoin.


after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.
[/quote]

All the 'right now', 'to this day' etc. is just circumstantial. The question is if it's technically possible to just have Bitcoin and that is, indeed possible.

To this day bitcoin can not completely replace fiat. Many influencing factors such as technology and government regulations. There would inevitably be difficulties with the transition. But in the future with advances in technology, it is possible to happen. But I think it's better to have both. Fiat for short-term investment as exchange rate and buying and selling. While Bitcoin is for long-term investment.

I think it would be easier if you think Bitcoin is a currency, a means of exchange just like fiat or gold as mentioned above. As long as people agree that you can exchange things with BTC, then that's enough. Fiat is just a more common currency, just like USD and EUR is a different one but function as more or less the same thing. Do you need USD to use EUR? Etc.

It can.

Remember the ancient days, there's no fiat during that time. Things were bought through gold, silver, bronze, or any precious metal or things that were precious to people.

It is about being valued by the people so it can be bitcoin/gold, bitcoin/oil, etc. if there's no fiat.

So in this hypothetical scenario, Bitcoin could exist without fiat?

I believe that's the crux of the question. Bitcoin is self-sufficient, and we can imagine a world in which the entire economy is based solely on cryptocurrencies. Whether this is actually feasible in the world we live in now is another issue.

So, in such a nation it does work without 'thinking in $ and exchanging for $ all the time' right?
Because these kinds of nations start to actually be a reality, with El Salvador being the first in the next days, for example.

Yeah that's why I ask how a government issued 'cryptocurrency' should in any way be better than the € and $ that they give us now. Government issued will mean they'll print / generate coins as they need (inflate it) so having a government crypto will have 0 benefit for anyone wanting to prevent losses through inflation.

Another point though about valuing Bitcoin in e.g. USD (or something else of relatively stable price like a full shopping cart - btw damn did the price of 1 shopping cart increase over the last 10 years?): right now, it is still needed as kind of an indicator, since we're still so early and adoption is still so low that the price is still long-term massively increasing. By comparing against something like '1 USD' we can roughly grasp how the value is developing. Though imho it's wrong that inflation is usually not factored in in those charts. They act as if 1 USD 10 years ago has still the same value today, which it does not.

So, yeah, I still don't see a real, technological argument how 'Bitcoin needs Fiat to work'. I can give you an item, you give me some Satoshis, no USD were used or referenced. Value will be determined by how many Satoshi you are ready to give me for that item, which will depend on how many hours you worked for that amount of Satoshis - the same way the € or $ 'market' works.

Bolding the word “staple”, due to its importance. In the society you're living, you pay everything with a fiat currency such as taxes, bills etc. The fact that you can buy a house with Bitcoin or stocks with gold is irrelevant. You will never think of an arbitrary number of sats to sell the house; you'll simply google the exchange rate and conclude how many bitcoins is your house valuated.

So, we both agree that at the moment it can't operate without fiat.

If you're living in a nation that forces you to use EUR, you have no reason to think of the exchange rate of EUR/USD. If you were living in a nation that forced Bitcoin usage, you'd have also no reason to think its exchange rate in fiat.

Why didn't they save up in a provable safe haven such as gold? It's known that fiat currencies are inflationary, the government doesn't keep it for secret. Whenever you feel your wealth is devaluated, grab the deflationary metal and sleep easy.

How is a cryptocurrency backed by government any different from fiat? It then is fiat as well. Because if it's not, so it's issued by independent miners etc., like BTC, then it's not government controlled anymore. The two kind of contradict themselves.

Even though it's often measured in fiat currencies, it doesn't mean it needs them to work. It is entirely possible (technically) for an economy like a country or even multiple countries / whole world to use BTC as currency. Like, EUR is also measured in USD, still it would work without USD. I never calculate how many USD a banana costs when I see an € price and then decide whether to buy it.

Same could technically apply with BTC. It is possible, that people get paid in BTC and go shopping in BTC, and just "know" what a good BTC (or satoshi) price for a banana is, just like I know what a good price is in €.

Regarding government having to control money, that's a whole different topic, but I personally think it's robbery to just print money when you need it, and people who saved up money in the bank for years, and worked hard for it, have it simply devalued by a huge amount through your printing activity.

We do this probably because fiat currencies are already the staple means of exchange and every other thing is valued against it. Cars, gold, houses, stocks are all priced against fiat. This does not mean any of these assets cannot be valued against each other, stocks can be sold for gold and houses for Bitcoin, they are not just popular enough or scalable enough to be used daily for all transactions as yet. In the future Bitcoin could be valued against something else, or other assets valued against it.

Not yet.

Let me tell you then. For now, there is no way that Bitcoin can be used without fiat. I mean that you can't fulfill your essential needs without fiat money. When you want to buy something, not all the places accept Bitcoin as a payment method. Maybe there are still ones that accept but it isn't enough in the end. You can't pay your bills etc. unless the goverment of the country you live in decides to create a system like this.

However, this can change in the future. Because digital currencies will replace fiat money in the future. We will use cryptocurrencies and digital currencies that are developed and backed by governments. Then, Bitcoin will be able to exist without fiat as there will be no need to convert I think.

This opens up a big discussion. If it's separate from fiat, then why do we measure bitcoins in dollars, euros, yen and not the opposite? We could do both, but we would never measure a dollar in sats. How is it supposed to work without fiat, since it's historically shown that the government has to control the money of the society in order for it to operate properly?

To answer the OP's title, I personally think that it can't work without fiat existence, because I don't believe in anarchism nor do I think that governments would regulate a censorship resistant type of money.

Of course it can exist without fiat but BTC does have to have a value equivalent to something that is universally recognized and accepted by its users as having value to them. Does not matter if that something is fiat, x weight in gold or x number of goats. That said, for now, the exchange medium is fiat and will remain fiat for the foreseeable future.

First of all, you have to know the characteristics of fiat money. Fiat money is used for payment and it has value cause govt. fixed its value by a legal tender, if you store fiat that's means you reserved something that has value, whatever doesn't matter. Fiat is issued by the governments that's why it has widespread Recognition and widespread consumer trust.

Now tell me does bitcoin has such bold marked characteristics? if yes then it is fine bitcoin can exist without fiat.

Sometimes Bitcoin is superior to fiat money in various ways, Bitcoin is not governed by any third-party authorities. You know commodity money has its own value but for fiat money, it is different. without regulation of government, fiat has no value. So, it is not a big deal for bitcoin to replace fiat.

Long story short :
Yes it can exist without fiat but not right now.
~
It's a seperate entity and you might live in a country where bitcoins are used very often and you are able to pay with it in every corner but in most countries, it's not the option, bitcoins is used but the only way you can use it is by exchanging or trading online or offline.

Therefore at some places it certainly can but most of the times you would find it hard to live just on bitcoins but have you heard of the family travelling the world just by using bitcoins???

Google it!
( They might believe otherwise, quite an interesting read!)

Bitcoin is completely separate from Fiat. It works without Fiat and doesn't need it.
So your question is answered with a big: Yup! Bitcoin can exist without any Fiat currencies around it.

The big difference is that Fiat money is just created / issued out of thin air by printing pieces of paper and saying they have a value, while Bitcoin needs work (PoW) to be performed to be created.

To be honest, the Wikipedia article is quite clear on what is fiat money: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money.

It means, e.g. gold coins would have intrinsic value and would not be fiat, but paper bills and low-value metal coins are fiat money.

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.