Topic: Can Bitcoin save a nation that owes a lot of money / Debt (Read 539 times)

I am glad that modern relations between Russia and Pakistan are actively developing on many fronts.
And the fact that the big boss has no permanent friends or enemies is a normal situation, but the problem is that the boss is already unable to control many things due to lack of resources.

Corruption is the reason why America can control countries where the local fiat is going down. Countries like Pakistan have been in that state not today but from the time when dollars were paid to big generals to create an army of mercenaries who would fight against the USSR. They are doing the same in different regions and they will continue to do it. There is a famous quote by a dynamic foreign minister of US named Henry Kisinger “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”

You write the right thoughts, but corruption is difficult to get rid of, because it is a method of management. If you remember the orange revolutions that large countries carried out in small countries in the East and Africa, then their result was something like this. The organizers of these revolutions realized that the new revolutionaries were even worse and were incapable of anything. To restore order in the country requires huge investments. The organizers had only one goal: to restore order, and then build a profitable business and make money.
But since this does not work, now the organizers are trying to finance different groups that are fighting for power, so that they solve the problems of the organizers. And if nothing works out, then they resort to terrorism.

They would be making great mistake if they would invest their budget money in bitcoin, that means they would have to wait for at least a year for the bull to be matured before they cash out into paying countries that they are indebted to. That one year of investment and waiting would have been the year they would implement the budget into different sectors of their economy to see how they can make progress in that year. It will not be a good idea for a country to invest in bitcoin in the hope to build the economy through it . El Salvador for instance have not been a super country financially having invested in bitcoin . In fact they have lost huge value of their bitcoin investment because of the expectation is yet to be accomplished as bitcoin bull is still not there yet, Nayib Bukele is trying to win his second term, reconvince businesses on the need to use bitcoin .

I don't think so, depending on how big their debt is and I'm assuming it's going to be in the billions, they're going to need to accumulate a lot of bitcoin or maybe even invest a huge part of their national budget into bitcoin acquisition since mining after this halving might not be as profitable, with the current price of bitcoin, they need to be on the level of Microstrategy to be able to make payments for their debts and it's a hard task at hand to be honest, that the answer to the question is that it's probably not a way to save Pakistan's debts through bitcoin.

This is right. Investing in bitcoin for the purpose of ROI to repay debts is only going to be a temporal measure and not long lasting thereby plunging the economy back to where it belongs because they will still go back borrowing. A country can make profit in bull season only either with halving because of demand and volatility that will be created and so when the season is off what happens?

Like you have narrated, to take a country out of economic woes and under development, first the country must wipe itself off from corruption because that is a knife that cuts through proper economic planning. Such countries with bad economy have bunch of corrupt government officials and politicians who when infrastructures are located through them, they embezzle the money into private use and then leaving those neighborhood at the mercy of what would have been prevented with such money budgeted.

For economy to grow and leave the poverty and indebtedness line, it must take capital projects and real investment serious. This will increase GDP and improve stand of living.

Human development i and education must also come into the fore and proper budgeting/planning must be made including monitoring. Education is the bedrock of innovation leading to manufacturing. So when this is done, there will be growth in the manufacturing sector and then exporting will be increased while importation is reduced and foreign currency reserve will improve which will bring borrowing to the normal and lowest minimum.

So it takes real planning and effort to draw a country out from borrowing to grow the economy internationally and not by temporal means of bitcoin investment.

Legally it cannot, Bitcoin cannot be created and included in state law, Bitcoin cannot legally be held accountable to legal entities, therefore it cannot save the state debt, Don't look at the value and investment and trading cycle, that's another story, indeed Bitcoin has good value, but it can't be underestimated.

The country has legal regulations regarding debt and money circulating in the country, of course all of this is bound by law, the country does not want to take risks with Bitcoin, because it can only be accessed via the internet and Bitcoin cannot be used as a single law to settle state debt.

An example that can be seen in El Salvador, even though they adopted Bitcoin on a large scale and was recognized by the president, El Salvador's national debt is still ballooning, the dollar has become the basic guide because it is legal and officially issued by world and American banks, Dollars are legally enforceable everywhere, Bitcoin is not like that only in certain cases, legally it cannot help with national debt, but as an investment it may be suitable.

In your case there are no different powers in the state, hence even the votes are stolen: the result of the votes is not related at all with the number of voters, not with what they've elected.
Plus, while even in democracies you get, in many cases, to the point you have to vote between a couple of bad choices, I expect that in your cases the choices are... simply a bad joke.

Sadly my logic doesn't work in dictatorship. In such cases, the history has shown that sadly the only solution is a revolution. And that is painful and risky, usually with many dead and with unknown chances of success, including the fact that the regime coming afterwards will probably not be exactly what the vast population was hoping for.
Sorry... I have no solution in your case... 

Stop degrading me! Are you out of your mind when you call anyone stupid? You have so much dysfunction happening in your mind and yourself that you forget whom you are talking to as you are som much filled with pride that you do not understand that you are talking to another human who has sense.



Providing stats does not prove you are wealthy or poor. Some things cannot be explained with stats, it has only been a few years which you know and still ignore that you do not know. A country coming out of an economic situation will take about 10 years. If you are so eager then keep on going with the replies. You of all the people how come you get to be a DT1 for bullying? If you can say that you won't tag me with a negative trust then I will show you what I can do.

You are talking about voting, but even using the example of my country, I can say that this does not work. Previously, we had elections of mayors of cities, chairmen of settlements, governors, but now there are only presidential elections. (now Duma deputies appoint people to the positions of regional governors, the governor appoints the mayor of the city and so on down the chain). Elections to the State Duma are based on factions, and the voter cannot influence the list of candidates. After the elections, each faction receives a quota depending on the percentage of votes received.
The number of elected positions is reduced very sharply, so elections are not anti-graft.

Imho the logic is a bit different.

First of all you need clear differentiation between the powers in the state. Of course, because of corruption, this will not always work well, but in time it will adjust.

Then training is also necessary: those fighting corruption have to learn to find it and also how to find and lock the illegal money. Of course, you can argue that this costs money. I will say that even in the corrupt countries people can learn, just in many cases the incentive is not great and not so visible plus the politicians try to keep the population uneducated so they can keep earning their votes.

Sooner or later the population will fed up and will stop voting the corrupt people especially if their corruption is exposed often enough.


Now about the "in rich countries" part. Many countries have become rich through 2 "pillars": higher education of people and less money stolen through corruption. So imho a country becomes rich by fighting the corruption, not the other way around. And when the different powers of the state work well, the corrupt people get - sooner or later - caught. That's what you find "less corruption" "in rich countries". They are not better nor more honest. Just more efficient through education.

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

Bitcoin is not a magic wand, which can save a country of corruption,never. they can only be saved if they take care of their finance.Using bitcoin to save a debt-ridden nation argue that it could provide several potential benefits. Firstly, bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, meaning it is not controlled by any entity or government.This decentralized could offer greater autonomy and control over monetary policy, reducing dependence on traditional financial institution and potentially mitigating the risk of defaulting on debt obligations .     

Why, are you too stupid do it it yourself?

First get at least the name of the country right, but probably that's too hard for you!
Second here is the data
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1341750/inflation-rate-latin-american-countries/


So, where is genius of Bukele?

Here is my reply to you troll! Please create another sheet where in you show GDP vs Inflation percentage. I would love to see the amount of inflation these countries with high GDP have as the real figure is always inflation percentage. As you trolled me with GDP data I would now like to see the inflation date to understand whether these data are relevant for a country. As I understand the GDP is irrelevant when the inflation is higher. I hope you check the inflation data of EL-Salvadore of 2022 and then rethink how good your data-driven ideology is in 2024.

The US cannot declare a default, because this will lead to a sharp depreciation of the dollar against other currencies. And since many countries received loans in US dollars, this means part of their debt will be forgiven due to the depreciation of the dollar. This is something the American government cannot afford.

Because contrary to popular beliefs, debt gets paid!
The debt that was issued 20 years ago is not the debt that is now, countries service their debts (some!!!), despite having a debt ratio of 100% because they can afford it, some countries, even while having a debt of only 20-30% default on it, and you should know better since yours did that twice in two decade. Look at the countries that defaulted and you're going to see that most of them defaulted were countries with very low budget to gdp government collection,  Greece was the only other Europeans country to default other than Russia since the 90's, and at the time it was the only country with such a low tax collection and huge underground economy.

So this is why Japan and the US haven't defaulted for four decades despite all the scaremongering, while Sri Lanka went from 20% to 105% and default in just one.

Also, since we talk facts, in order for Pakistan to pay its debt they would need 1.2 million Bitcoins!
Just to service the deficit at current levels they need 2.4 billions a year so 32 000! Bitcoins, that's 16 times more than what Salvador has each year!!!!
Some really need to understand how huge the world actually is!

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country
Debt to GDP Ratio by Country


Top 10 Countries with the Lowest Debt-to-GDP Ratios (%)


"While a low debt-to-GDP ratio is generally desirable, it does not necessarily indicate a healthy economy. Many stagnant or developing economies have a low debt-to-income ratio because both their level of debt and their GDP are low. In fact, in some cases, a country's economy could be healthier in the long run if the country were to borrow from another country and invest heavily in economic growth.."

This site contains everything I wanted to say.
You talk about repayment for a long time, but why did you decide that someone will pay these debts?

GDP to debt is actually a method that makes the economy look better for some poorer countries and those with large shares of black/underground economies.
Here is an interesting comparison, so we assume a 100% debt to GDP.

We take Denmark, Pakistan and Salvador.
Denmark has a GDP of 398 billion USD and a government budget of $130 billions.
So for them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 306 years.

Salvador has a GDP $31 billion of and a government budget of $9.1 billion.
For them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 340 years.

Pakistan has a GDP of 348 billion USD and a government budget of $50 billion.
For them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 696 years.

In short, the Pakistan govemermnt would need to raise taxation and collecting by over 100% to paint the same picture on a same level of GDP to debt ratio.
But this is data, and people hate data, they love twitter memes!

GDP to debt ratio is not a very fair indicator for many countries. Basically, all countries contribute a bunch of financial sector products to GDP, and we can see that in many countries GDP consists of financial sector indicators from 40 to 70%. And the real economy is in an even worse situation.

Demanding you provide data for unrealistic claims is trolling?


Because you always make ridiculous claims, that's the reason why!
Take your time before posting things that makes no sense and the I won't correct you!
Also just end with posing as victim, you posted some bullshit and I called you on your bullshit, and the next moment you start crying, grow some balls and a thicker skin, if you can't take criticism for the shit you post online stop posting shit!!


Done with your signature quota for the day?

As this talk is going maybe I am wrong in my views but still I am going to give few points which are not belonged to bitcoin but related to country Pakistan with as I read and understand this is one of the twelve fertilizer countries which are full of sources, but sadly they have never been able to use them as they wanted due to corruption and many other factors which are not point to talk here but still as mentioned above main issue is Army as well which is controlling this all for decades.
Now they are in deep trouble due to heavy debit and things can go worst with a government which is not backed by common peoples due to rigged elections but still IMF is standing with them because they are also having their own agenda with this all can bitcoin save them, I believe yes but now this all need good strategy and big decisions which are surely not easy but still things are manageable with bitcoin and crypto if you want to solve things, but I have no idea who is going to do this all for this country.

^ You are again trolling and trying to bully me as that what you have done earlier. Let's face it you are a troll and I am the person who you always target.

Wait for my reply and do remember you are trolling me about Salvador on a thread where it is about whether a falling economy like Pakistan can survive with Bitcon.

I am going to enjoy this discussion as I have not time now. I will get back to you tomorrow. Please don't hesitate to edit your reply as it is already captured.

Because that's what a normal person would do when he makes such claims!


Because that's what realty shows us?
How can you claim otherwise when the country has a bigger deficit, an increasing debt and it has the slowest economic growth of all the region?


Salvador need Bitcoin at $350k for all their savings to cover just one year of deficit, so what are they going to do for next year?


Oh I got it, if I'm not kissing Bukele's ass and I 'm asking for proof of what he has done good for the economy I'm an undercover agent from the IMF!
But good for you, you have finally found out what's wrong with countries like this, whenever somebody comes and ask for real data or criticizing your take on what you're doing you start throwing shit at him and claim you know better! Good luck with that!

I wonder if Hitler would come back to life and he would buy Bitcoin, would you start praising him for his leadership? 

Why would I need data to back my claim? Salvador is a struggling economy and that is why they are trying something new. What's the point for you to suggest that the economy is going in shit. With Bitcoin pumping it is evident they would get their economy into a position where they would be not be in a position to ask guidance from IMF.

Since you are a data fantic now, go look into the borrower list of IMF and then come up with a data. Lol! Think before you reply and then give me a data. Remember we are talking about Pakistan and not a South American countries .

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:


Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

I agree that politicians lie upfront and they do use those lies for their own benefits. Whereas in that country politicians scam, use their power to make money for themselves and they get their support from the army as they are in control of everything. They as in the civilians never can say army did it, they call the army as establishment.

Even Wikipedia created a seperate page for them: Allegations of rigging in the 2024 Pakistani general election

All politicians and businessmen, of course, lie in public speeches, and I would be more afraid to listen to the opinions of those who recommended buying Bitcoin during the last bull cycle.
Gold as a short-term reserve is not a very good way, because transactions with it are controlled in my country and in other countries and there are taxes. But on the shadow market, prices are much lower when selling, and when buying, you need to check the goods, otherwise scammers will sell a gold-plated piece of metal.

I am a big Bitcoin supporter and I do not think it is a bubble, someone like Warren Buffet who is a known stooge of the US, cannot destroy my belief in Bitcoin. I do agree there is a big risk to consider Bitcoin as a legal tender due to its volatility, but when Bitcoin goes up and you as in a country have Bitcoin as a reserve rather than Gold it does increase a country's reserves.

In Pakistan, the problem is different as the current selected government is full of those who are known to be corrupt. I said selected because of the Pakistan army controlling the output of the election. If the leader is known as corrupt and the Army is known to be the backbone that controls everything happening in Pakistan how would then Bitcoin help that nation? Do a Google search about the current election in Pakistan and you will see how the Pakistani army is controlling everything happening in that country.

I am a poor communicator on the situation in Pakistan.
But I understand a little about economics.
The very first thing I tell everyone is the words of Warren Buffett: “Bitcoin will cost 0.” And this must be understood correctly.
Nobody knows when this bubble will burst, in a year or in 10-100 years, but it will burst.
For the USA and Europe, this is a very small market, and a collapse in the crypto market will not greatly affect their economy, but for small countries this can be a very fatal mistake.

I agree they as in the top brass or the elites who are only 10% will easily corrupt the miners or the financial advisors to get control over Bitcoin. The present government is full of corrupt leaders and they are again in power because of the backdoor Army control. You would not believe it the Army produces everything and is the biggest infrastructure developer in Pakistan.

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary. Assuming they bought Bitcoin when it was in its ATH, last night Bitcoin reached that price point and with the current market condition it is going to create a new ATH in a few days. What will you have to say then about Bitcoin with spot ETF money coming in Bitcoin is going to create some huge ATH.

If I were the president of the country, I would not legalize Bitcoin. There is a very high risk of potential scam here. The first miners and users received bitcoins for a very small amount, and now one bitcoin costs more than $60,000.
If El Salvador now has unrealized profits, this does not mean that these profits will last forever. Prices are also falling.

No, what's the point to have a better investment if the profit will be corrupted by public servant? Pakistan is currently ranks 140/180 countries in corruption perceptions index.

This is the reason why every countries always be same, the rich is still rich, the poor is still poor, even though the president and public servants changed, but they still brought the cultures, if the country is popular with corruption, then the corruption culture won't end.

They need an iron hand president who want to end the corruption culture, don't mind to fire a big civil servant that didn't give any contribution, brave enough to catch sharks that can control few places etc.

How do you add Bitcoins to your reserves when you have no money to pay your current expenses and you would need more $ in order to buy BTC because if you would try to buy $10 billion (that's 10% of Pakistan debt) worth of BTC with Pakistani Rupee the exchange rate would go down by an order a magnitude well before you would be able to purchase that.

There are huge differences between a single individual exchanging some of his earning to Bitcoin which won't move the fx rates by even 0.000001% and a total different thing when a country would embark on a $10 billion foreign currency purchase.


Salvador had for two consecutive years the lowest GDP growth in central america, they ran a 700 million deficit last year, they would need with their current holdings Bitcoin at $300k for all their coins to cover one year of deficit!!!

The first thought that comes to my mind when I hear the name Pakistan is corruption and the second thought is the Army. Bitcoin can be a saviour for Pakistan but you need to ask a few questions from yourself.

Do you think the corrupted leaders and the Army will try to consider Bitcoin as a legal tender? Your country is being played by the US and China for their benefit. Will these powerful countries allow Pakistan to adopt Bitcoin and forget about the US dollar or the Chinese Yuan?

The answer is no! I am sorry about the current economic situation of Pakistan and I don't think the situation will change in the future. If you want to change the way Pakistan is being run then find a good leader. Not everyone can be as Nayib Bukele, the President of El Salvador.

I read an article that mismanagement and lack of good governance are the deep causes of most of Pakistan’s economic problems even though it has abundant natural and human resources; It has the fifth largest gold reserve in the world in Balochistan province, the second largest salt reserve and the sixth largest coal reserve in Punjab, but it was unable to exploit these resources for its economic benefit.

Therefore, if the government, which has all these resources, is constantly borrowing and does not find alternative solutions to pay off the debts, I do not think there is any solution to get out of the crisis, neither Bitcoin nor anything else.

Bitcoin is not a magic wand which can save the economy of bankrupt countries. Not sure why people are always over estimating about the power of Bitcoin, but in reality it is just a cryptocurrency. It is not built to replace the banks or to save the economy. Bitcoin has thrived as a parallel currency system and I believe that's exactly where Bitcoin shines.

Pakistan economy can be saved only if they choose to bring peace with their neighbours and if they stop supporting terrorism.

Bitcoin cannot save Pakistan. Leadership and management can.

Pakistan have a large market and I know this well because as a person from Nigeria, we import clothes, shoes, jewelries, handbags from Pakistan. And I know that they have people from other countries who patronize them. And there is market for anything that they want to sell.
However, I feel that if Pakistan changes their leadership just as El Salvador and invest in their physical and human infrastructure they will in no time clear off their debts.

Good leadership and management will help Pakistan clear off their debt not bitcoin.

No. Countries like Pakistan, if they want to get out of the hole, have to start by spending less than they earn. Exactly the same thing happens as in a family or a company, not expecting a magical investment to get you out of trouble.

The value of the bitcoins purchased by El Salvador is $150M and the GDP is around $34 billion, meaning that the price increase, although not go bad, will not have a very significant impact.


Well, unless you become famous for making Bitcoin legal and attract investment for it, as has happened in El Salvador, that does help develop the economy. But you're right that just buying Bitcoin doesn't.

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy. The financial sector increases the economy only according to statistical data, but if the profits from this sector are not distributed to real sectors of the economy, such as manufacturing, agriculture, medicine, education and others, then the country will continue to borrow and depend on the policies of other countries.

Usually Bitcoin price doesn't really rise when you want and as much as you'd like (although now, fueled by ETF, the rules may change).
However, buying Bitcoin costs money, so the country may have to get into more debt and also the money will be locked in bitcoins, not fueling the economy.

But from what I know, El Salvador has pretty much done the same: bought bitcoins, although their economy looks bad. And obviously, IMF was far from happy.
This for us, bitcoiners, may look like a fun fact, but if the country needs more money afterwards, the standard banks borrowing more will not give that.
So it may be more than tricky to solve this just by buying some bitcoins. Plus it depends on luck and also how fast they'd move. Because buying near ATH is another problem.

I was studying a recent financial magazine where there was an article start that Pakistan has taken a lot of debt from other countries and it is almost difficult to pay it back in time.
Although the article did not mention any crypto solution but only focused on having more industries on small and large scales to improve exports and increase the foreign reserves.

Considering this condition of any country, can Bitcoin help in this to recover from this crisis by probably adding BitcoinBTC in national reserves and not only focusing on US Dollars