Topic: Can gambling sites provide proof of auditing that was done on their RTP? (Read 409 times)

I understand the pain of being flooded as if no one reading your post. I suggested a feature on the forum before to provide top answer feature on every thread so that a discussion thread will not be hard spammed when someone already provided the correct answer to the main question of the thread.

The problem on this board is no one reads previous post due to the tons of post need to back-read and just go directly with their opinion.

I hope the OP update this thread and put your answer on the front page. @Kakmakr

This is how this board works.

Step 1: Someone who has no clue asks a legit question.
Step 2: Someone who knows the industry answers it.
Step 3: 99 signature spammers enter the thread and twist/deform/reform the topic for the sake of post count, without reading what happened before.
Step 4: The first two people have no fkn clue what happened and where to go after that so they disappear
Step 5: The thread stays unlocked and more spammers enter the argument, like Zarintasnim above.

And then sometimes, if I'm having a particularly bad day, I either report the comment or ask the admin to lock the thread.

How many online or offline casinos have you visited and how many of them do not show? It has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread that there's a way for a player to verify randomness of game from third party providers. It's also been said that they are regularly audited by license providers. The real issue here is the audit of in-house games.

I think it's a really important topic. We never try to know that gaming software is checked by any regulated authority to check their software before starting a game. we only throw money and start to play games. But we should ask them if it is audited or not for this way we can play a safe game. Most of the players choose high RTP. They think high RTP gives them the most winning probability. But casino most of the time depends on your luck. Fair audit reports are always in course for their player to participate game. But unfortunately, most of the casinos don't show.

We know they do that that because they are required to have auditing from third party auditors by law. It's happening frequently and constantly because one test doesn't cut it.
And i wonder what kind of proof is OP looking for. Pure data about testing or what? I am sure most people wouldn't even make sense any data analysis of an auditor. But anyone can probably ask if those auditors have time to answer questions, or about their methods.


Imagine risking a billion dollar industry by using fake audits. There's no reasonable explanation for that, especially when the biggest asset of any casino is trustworthiness and transparency.
Mathematical proof of slight house edge is the only thing they need to profit.

This is not correct. If you can't verify the fairness of a game by your own then you can't call it "provably fair in first place.
Moreover, being provably fair has nothing to do with being closed source or not. Actually, most pf games are closed source.

The only problem with pf algorithms used in slots is that they are a bit more complicated and harder to verify than those used in more simple games such as dice or roulette.

@yahoo, here is an article explaining in details how the pf algorithm for BGaming slots works and how to verify that it's indeed fair:
https://bgaming.com/provably-fair

That's a good proposal indeed. If casinos or third partry slot providers would provide links toward reports from certifying companies, users would be less reluctant and more confident to play not provably fair games, so it could be a good thing for both sides at the end: casinos and players. Because it would certainly attract new categories of players, more suspicious players for example.

in Italy our local agency can perform audits and inspections both on their offices (AAMS) both with vendors (like local bookmakers).
all games here have an audit trail (you get a code at start of game). however I don't know if this can really help players or change something in case there are "smart" operatos.

There are many casino that would be er disclose that to the public, although this is one of the reasons why we need to keep doing research on casinos ww intended to use and keep gambling. Many of these information are not that available for users and we need to be wise and be conscious of manipulative casino that are always ready to mislead users just to keep getting frequent traffic if new users to there casino. This might not be necessary to some person but I what ever way it is, we need concentrate and look for a good casino to use.

This is not true. This is so not true.

Offline casinos have much more leeway for offering a scammy experience.

I would rather play on an online live poker table like Pokerstars where I know that everything is regulated and managed properly, than in an offline casino where you know that the dealer can do random stuff. 
I would rather play on a 96% RTP slot machine in an online casino, than on a god-knows-how-much RTP in an offline casino, just go to Vegas and ask them for the RTP on a slot, you will hear numbers hovering around 77%.
Also, I would rather play long-term on an online casino and establish a relationship with my VIP manager and get perks, bonuses and what nots, instead of having that ghostly feeling of being just one out of many within a regular offline casino.

I would venture to say that for the Brick N mortar casinos they are regulated with much more scrutiny but the online casinos are probably a lot more loose, proabably letting things slide or not double checking everything as much probably due to lack of regulations. There are so many small casinos now, I think that something like chip mixers are more on the radar but online gambling casinos even crypto ones are probably more so overlooked compared to something like that.

Well, the topic is interesting in itself, or I know if the casinos can give them if they are asked for these discounts, in fact there is always an associated number of the RTP for the slots, and it is something that we see and sometimes they show next to each slot , for me it is interesting because basically things can be transformed for good, and not for something that is seen as bad, for me it is interesting because I have not seen much information about this, in fact it would be very nice if caisnos could have this type of reports.

The AI understands a lot, and gives simple examples so that anyone can understand it, based on this in casino reviews, or reviewers should request this type of data that turns out to be very good, to compare, which All the casinos that do not have this type of reports are something by which they can be evaluated, not to judge them, but at least to have it as a guide to know which casinos we have the best chance of winning.

As active players, if I would like to review this type of data, also as a measure of associated curiosity, this is sure that the casinos that will have the highest RTP will be bitcasino.io, stake.com, because they are the most popular casinos and that everyone They want to enter and try their luck, of course rollbit, duelbits, roobet too.

RTP is supposed to be for the long term, if you experience losses for a long time, just hold on your horses, you might get a surprise one day when the RTP kicks in.  Experiencing RTP is not like, if I wager $100 today I must receive $95 dollars today, as stated it is a return of money to the player over a long period of time. 


True that, auditing is one of the processes enforced by the various licensing authorities in order for the casino to get its license to operate according to this article: https://medium.com/@hirer42047/the-importance-of-auditing-with-online-casinos-a77b6aa4983c

Either you trust them or play other games.

The things we can do just trust the provider, the RTP is correct based of (RNG). If you on (Landbase) CASINO especially on (VEGAS) they even have the worst RTP, just about 60% and people still play that shit up.

Spin with over 50, 100, 500, or 1000$ / spin and just win around 10-30x (they are excited ~LOL) + The Jackpot Notify came out with just 10-30x from their bet size. Take these as leason, no one can verified and all machine program will be always profitable to the house. Now, you are now better to play (card games) while have a better odds to the player like (BJ 2-3 Deck, Sportbook or Pokers).

This is what I thought as well, RTP is nothing but the average value of return that someone can get which doesn't mean that everyone who gambles will get as much as returns as mentioned in the RTP value because we never know which is the bet that is going to give us the win and that's why longer the betting streak the chances of winning is high.

However I just want to know is it mandatory to prove the provided RTP of in house games of casino to the players or its just for the documentation of regulators?

As long as a gambling casino is licensed, then they should have information for their Return to Player audit, mostly this has to deal with the gambling platforms and the regulatory authorities or government as the case may be, what do someone like me, an average gambler needed that for, will they even allow me to see such, all these would have been well spelt out under their casino ToS if we had gone through them.

There is not better proof than the test of times. Most people using crypto exchanges can speak a lot about darwinism in that sense, that is creating rep by simply not being hacked, allowing withdrawals and treating users fairly including the odds, etc... However there is good opportunity for sites that have still to make their way into the market by promoting a certification.

Yes, I think so too. Because I have experienced it, when I won at one casino and played the same slot machine at another casino, it seemed as if my luck had run out and it was very difficult to win, I was only able to get a small win when playing a slot machine from a different provider

Have you ever felt something like that? Maybe my guess is right because the provider can find out our IP so they know that we are the ones playing even though we use different online casinos, it looks like I have to change providers when I win at one of the slot machine providers

Some game provider allows few modifications on the RTP based on the casino preferences but game provider is the one that changing the RTP and not casino since game provider has the full control on the games. Casino just added it on their website so that players can play it.


I think so but I’m not sure. Some provider like PP have a tournament for all the players playing their games in different casino. I think they are just like evolution gaming that tracks all the players playing their games even in different casino.

Thank you for your great answer

I want to ask, if the RTP is determined by the provider and not the casino, why is there usually a slight difference in RTP between one casino and another? usually the difference is not much but there is a slight difference.

Additionally, if I play on the same slot machine at a different casino, will the provider know? For example, I played Gates of Olympus on Shuffle and won, because I had won, I moved to another casino and played the Gates of Olympus slot machine again, does PP know that it was me? because they must have recorded my IP

AI told you some garbage there.

Slot machines are here for entertainment and the thrill of a big win, which does happen, but they are not here to make money for the player.

The most common RTP in the online industry hovers around 96%, in the offline industry it can go as much down as 80%, but offline businesses that go that aggressive rarely deal with regulars, while we in online deal with regular players and want that they stay with us longer, so we have higher RTP's. That doesn't mean that you, specifically you, will get 96% back out of $100 gambled. No, this means that the game, on an average (a huge average) is giving out 96% back, but in most cases you don't see it because it comes back in increments. Someone might have a zero RTP, someone else a jackpot. It's a theoretical average. The point is to entertain you as long as possible for those $100, and the slot machine will be taking and giving as you continue to play. You might win, but let's assume you'll not.

And although the games have to be ISO/IEC 17025 compliant, if the casino is using a slots provider (e.g. Bgaming) then they can't change the RTP, it's baked into the game and managed by Bgaming, not the casino. So the Auditing part would go to Bgaming, which is a Malta Gaming Authority audited brand, so basically MGA is doing the Audit on them.

If the casino is using their own games, there's more room for scams, so check if they are "provably fair" (no, it's not a typo). However, I would never recommend to play on a non-licensed casino.

We have someone here that operates an online casino. He is still very active here and actually answer this kind of question frequently on his AMA thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5482508. He is the only user here I know that is qualified to give right answer on this question since most of our opinions here is just speculation because we don’t work in the casino.


@SirJohnVonSlotty sir, I’m not sure if this question is already asked on your AMA thread but this topic is popular to ask here while always doesn’t received deserve answer. Can you help us here for your insights to this topic. We really appreciate your knowledge on this field.

I think you are wrong, there is actually a way to test or audit a slot machine since they are a programmed computer game, by the term "programmed computer game", I mean that, those machines are running a slot game software, and they can be infected, same way a windows program  on your computer, or an android program can be infected with a virus or malware, the slot program installed on the slot machine can be tested and or audited to make sure that the RTP the machine displays is the actual RTP in the software the machine is running, since things like this can be manipulated through the machine's internal or physical settings.

I can give you an example of the woman who they said won over $400,000 while playing slot on a slot machine, and after the casino investigated the win, they told her she did not win, that what was displayed on the slot machine as her winning was due to a malfunction in the machine which affected the game software.
How was the casino able to discover this if not that they ran an audit on the woman's game history on that machine...?

This is true. There’s no way to test the probably fair system of slot games since they are all close source that’s why we are relying here on trust that provider is following the standards after the audit done to them since everything is online now.

Being close source of most 3rd party game provider is still a mystery since some says it’s to protect their games against exploit but some says to hide what they are doing from behind. No one knows exactly what’s true here. Online gambling is based on trust built over their length of service without any issue.

I've observed this for a long time and when it comes to online businesses, you should forget about strict regulations, while some are not regulated at all, but to others, they are just regulated on paper and not in actual practice. This is why you see cheating everywhere, and this is not peculiar to the casino business alone but all facets of online businesses and dealings. This is why we should be wise and at least deal with the ones that we know are sincere to a certain meaningful extent that is comfortable to us. I have seen enough and heard enough about the broad daylight robbery by the so-called online legit businesses, most of them are just swindlers hiding under registering, licensing and regulations. For those who are still regulated still, it is not about the interest of the customers in most cases but the sharing of the money between the government and the corporations, and bribery of the government officials to look away can't be taken out of this as well.

I know it can't continue to go on like this, it might take time but online dealings would still have to be regulated and heavy sanctions would be meted out to the companies that are not cooperating. Nevertheless, it is better with brick-and-mortar casinos because they have their physical presence in the country, and there would be due registration and monitoring by the government. And this is about the country we are talking about as most countries are almost useless in terms of regulations, they are just figureheads. Imagine online casinos operating in such countries, it would be worse because the government may not even have the technology or experts that would audit them or point the government in the right direction for a private audit, which of course would cost more. They prefer earning it more through tax and turn a blind eye.

I will say with all honesty that this is really an interesting question, as personally, I've never for once thought about the possibility and importance of auditing a game software to ensure that it's up to the standard the casino are advertising the game to be.
But unfortunately, this is not a question gamblers can answer, just as money here have said, there is no way we can know if online casinos actually go through such audit on their games software before launching such game to the public, because so far, no online casino have ever spoken concerning this, neither has any ever made such data available to their customers and prospective customers as well.

This is something I will suggest we all return back to our favorite casinos and ask them if their game software are audited, as a way to prove that the games are as fair as they should be, and just as they claim, casinos that refuse to answer or provide the audit data possibly have something they are hiding.

the fact that you don’t care about rtp is probably the reason why you got a lot of losses rtp does not guarantee you success but it will help you choose the best possible slot or game to play

typically you would not want to play a game that has a relatively low rtp

There are other gamblers who say that when the RTP percentage is high, the chances of winning in casino games are high. But for me, I don't believe that; it's just a trick they use to encourage gamblers. Of course, the gambler will think that it is good to play in this casino because the percentage that the players win is high.

But not all casino players don't believe in this RTP, because most of the winnings that gamblers get are usually based on luck.

Can anyone tell me which ones are the auditing firms, that perform testing and certification of online crypto casinos?
I don't know anything about such firms. The crypto casinos(or the gambling game providers) are working with the "probably fair" concept, which means that every gambler is supposed to verify that the dice/crash/online slot game is actually fair and it provides perfectly random results. I'm not an expert in this field and I can't provide a competent opinion. I never truly believed that the "probably fair" gambling games are 100% fair and transparent.

Yes, there are actually two things that should be audited. A lot of these casinos use games from 3rd party providers ... but they also host a lot of their own in-house games.

The in-house games should receive the most scrutiny, because the RTP for these games are controlled by the casino and not pre-configured by some 3rd party provider.

I think most of the cooking of the RTP is done on the in-house games, because it is easy to change it.

By betting $95 with a RTP of 95%, the player can expect to win $90.25 (- $4.74 = 5%). Then - $85.7375 and so on.

As you can see, a RTP equal to 95% (less than 100%) one way or another leads to a decrease in the deposit. The more bets, the closer the deposit balance is to zero.

Probably, if this is not published, then such an audit is never carried out on gambling sites. Otherwise, online casinos would use this for advertising purposes. Therefore, I come to the conclusion that the actual RTP in an online casino can be anything (even below 95%) and players will not be able to check this.

The prosperity (presence of a big user base) of online casinos demonstrates that players have no doubts about the RTP and are ready to play under any conditions. It seems to all of them that the casino is playing fairly with them and they trust them blindly.

I think this applies to slot game providers as well, such as Amatic and Pragmatic and many others. These companies provide important services for online casinos and all digital gambling platforms, and it is obvious that they will be granted licenses according to the audit results. I do not know which competent authorities are supposed to be charged with carrying out these verifications, but in the most extreme cases, one of the reliable auditing companies is contracted with him. I am talking here about the regulatory authorities and not for any ordinary user who is supposed to verify the integrity of the service according to the results of the audits.

If the answer from ChatGPT is true then there might be irregularities in audits. They could engage in connivance with auditors and operators, especially in casinos or gambling industries. One of the gambling operation in the Philippines (PCSO) is under investigation due to unnecessary lottery winners. Currently, the Senate of the Philippines is investigating this issue. I don't have any updates on it as of now. This issue isn't about the RTP but the possibility of irregularities of casinos or gambling industries.

I don't think you can test provably fair on a slot machine. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong as I am actually curious of this myself.

Regulatory authorities couldn't catch up with the technology or they are just not doing their job to enforce. It's harder to do it than to the traditional casinos and this I can understand because those brick-and-mortar casinos can't just walk away and never return calls to the regulators.

And most gamblers wouldn't mind those RTP and RNG, all they care about is if they win, they going to get money. Most of the users who just discovered they can gamble online are not studying all these before betting. At least for me, I don't in the beginning. After I learned about this, I still didn't mind actually.  But I am interested in reading the scam accusations of users though.

Based on what I've read, these online gambling sites are subject to regulations and license requirements that compel them to undergo regular audits by independent third-party testing agencies. These audits are conducted to verify that the games' RNG is fair and that the stated RTP is accurate. But the big question is, is it enforced and thoroughly reviewed by the regulatory authorities?

What is the difference between provably fair and RTP? It seems like there isn't much difference because winning or losing still ultimately depends on luck. So, if you keep playing in the long run, losses are likely to be inevitable.

I once chased losses and played one slot machine continuously, but I didn't get good results, all I got were more and more losses. So I don't really care about RTP, and in my opinion there is no guarantee about RTP, this happens when we play a slot machine that we have never played before and it turns out we can get a big win. Or maybe the RTP is random and doesn't always come back to us, but winnings can also be given to other users?

I gamble only relying on my feelings, if my feelings are good then I continue playing, if not then it is better to move to another slot machine in the hope that I will be luckier

Because the authority didn't force them and most people don't mind about it, if everything is working, why they need to post it? there's a chance to cause a drama because the gamblers will compare their data with the data from the providers.

That's really bold to say "just words", many casino providers were established from 2 decades ago, before Bitcoin was exist. I don't think 2 decades is a short time, they must be have followed a strict regulation, they might not show it to public, but they must be show it to the authority and the audit firms.

From what I know, its call the RNG audit not RTP audit.
RNG (random number generator) program on slots is responsible for determining the outcome of each spin, and RNG guarantees that the past outcomes do not affect the future results.
And this RNG usually tested by independent audit labs such as Itechlabs, Ecogra, etc.

For online slots, some of the gaming providers provide a variable RTP setting but the slots operator/casino will not able to set random numbers.
For example, slot A standard RTP is 96% and the gaming provider of slot A only provides an option to pick 94% or 96%, because of that the casino will not able to set it to any number beside 94% or 96%.
Also to change RTP, the slots operator/casino is not able to change it anytime they like because they have to request it first to the gaming provider or via the 3rd party casino software provider and it will not happen instantly.

Some of you might aware that the same slots have different RTP at different casinos, it doesnt mean that some casinos are cheating with lower the RTP but because its legal and they are allowed to do that.
I suggest to play only slots with the standard RTP from the gaming providers, how to check it?
Google it or visit the gaming provider site to check it then compare with the RTP of that slot on your favorite casino.
To check the RTP, load the game then go to Setting or Information. Any casino will not able to change any info in the information tab including the RTP info about that game.
For example,


Because of the reasons above, the slots operators/casinos dont need nor able to provide an audit of the RTP/RNG because the slots operators do not have a direct access to that program.
And Im sure many people are still not aware that they play their favorite slots with non standard RTP on certain sites.
 

Legit game developers (3rd party providers) provide the data, but it's for the gaming authority... you know for the license purpose.
Their RNG should also be certified, for instance: Pragmatic Play
So assuming everything is working as it should, you don't need to overthink about RTP and stuff. However, we are still in the realm of trusting 3rd parties, which, in my opinion, is kinda risky considering the history of corruption and stuff.

To be honest I never know if there an audit for RTP and yes people usually choose a game with high RTP ratio but you are kinda right maybe we need an RTP audit hahaha, but I saw a lot of people win big 90% RTP sometimes the gambling site post a leaderboard should we still need a audit rtp in your opionion

This question is best fit for casino owners, I wish we have some of them on here to answer this question right now.

Many online casinos claimed to be audited but there is no proof of audit online like those from crypto projects, In gambling, it's users risks and in crypto project investments it's also users risks, I wonder why crypto is more eyed on because this shouldn't left online casinos out either.

If SEC are going after crypto projects why no one ever heard about some organization going after online casinos? Because I strongly believe that they are not all audited, their proof are just words, nothing more.

I can tell you with full confidence that local online casinos with local licenses get audited. I know that the software of slots, roulette, blackjack and every other games, get regularly checked by government to make sure that every local operating casino plays fair games.
Many crypto casinos use Curacao license. I don't know if they are required to do audits. As I know, the license giver country should audit them but Curacao doesn't mandate casino servers to be physically located within its borders. Probably audits aren't done on online casinos, I hope some casino owners will answer this question.

I asked AI the question below and it gave a very interresting answer and even more questions that are unanswered.

"Teach me about RTP in gambling and how it can be proven"

ChatGPT
RTP stands for "Return to Player," and it's a measure used in gambling to indicate the percentage of wagered money that a slot machine, table game, or any other gambling product is expected to return to the player over time.

To calculate the RTP of a game, you need to know the total amount of money wagered on the game and the total amount of money paid out as winnings. Then, you can use the formula:

RTP = (Total Winnings / Total Wagers) * 100

For example, if players wager a total of $1,000 on a slot machine and the machine pays out $950 in winnings, the RTP would be calculated as follows:

RTP = ($950 / $1,000) * 100 = 95%

This means that, on average, for every $100 wagered, the player can expect to receive $95 back in winnings over time.

To prove the RTP of a gambling game, regulators often require developers and operators to undergo testing and certification by independent auditing firms. These firms analyze the game's software and mechanics to ensure that the stated RTP is accurate and fair. Additionally, regulatory bodies may require operators to periodically report on the actual performance of their games to verify that they are meeting the stated RTP. This helps ensure transparency and fairness in the gambling industry.

So, I know these audits are done on "brick n mortar" casinos, but what about the online gambling sites?

If these audits are done on online gambling sites, why are this not published online for transparency? It does not even have to be detailed reports, just a summary report of their findings.