Topic: Can metal detectors detect metal seed storage plates ? (Read 649 times)

I don't think many burglars break into houses in order to rob metal wallets. But in our country, it's quite common for burglars to use metal detectors in order to find jewelry more quickly, so it's not really overthinking to be concerned about that imo because burglars could find it while looking for something else. In a flat there are less safe places to hide a thing like that, in addition, because you don't want inquisitive guests to find it.

IMO, you're complicating the problem and overthinking it, because using a metal detector to find a metal wallet inside a house is almost impossible. The only way this could be viable is if you were trying to hide a metal plate inside furniture, or if you were living in a wooden hut.

I'll give you an example of my own house.
The roof is metal, you're not going to be able to find a metal plate if I make a slot in the drywall ceiling because right above it, there's a ton of sheet metal.
There's a lot of wiring in the walls and some of them are plasterboard partition walls with metal studs inside. The detector is going to go crazy in there, showing everything to be metal. Are you going to rip every single wall to see what's inside? It's going to take days.
The floor is reinforced concrete with steel mesh inside. This is all going to show as one big metal slab. If I cut a slot in the floor and put the metal wallet in there the only way to find it is to remove all the flooring...

Nobody is going to come to your house with a detector in hope of getting lucky with your metal wallet, but if you're afraid, you can always use a copper plate and put it behind one of the outlets. The detector is going to show copper there because of the wiring, so it's going to look normal on the detector.

Definitely it matters. The deeper you bury it, the harder it will be for metal detector to detect. Personally I know that if you bury something 50 centimeter deeper, it will be difficult for most metal detectors to detect it.
Also, a material that blocks electromagnetic waves, will make the whole job much more difficult for metal detectors but you know, your last hope is to pray if someone uses ground-penetrating radar

When I googled fiberglass laminate, I got mixed pictures and some of them looked very unpractical to use in any case, for example cloth. I think you mean Fiberglass sheet in this case, right? Or in a best case, laminated fiberglass sheet or epoxy fiberglass plate sheet. Right term will make it easier to understand what you actually mean.

And do you think it's safe if you ask memorial services to put seed phrases on the stone? If we are not limited to the necessary equipment and money and everything, then I think that Corazon Titanium wallet, thatI already highlighted in this thread, is the best option.

Nothing is impossible if use brain a little.

For example, a dremel or an engraving machine can engrave any text.

There is another solution: to drill small holes in such a way that the points in the collection form the text.

Memorial services somehow put text on such stones, right? The question is only in the presence of the necessary equipment. Theoretically, you can try an engraving machine with a suitable head. But in general, the idea of ​​a seed phrase from a stone seems to me unnecessarily exotic, impractical and creating an extra headache with the manufacture.


This option is the easiest and fastest to get the seed phrase, regardless of the material used, be it metal, paper or something exotic.

Yeah I would think 5 dollar wrench would be next at that point.

This sounds interesting. How are you gonna print bitcoin seeds on fiberglass laminate? By the way, Fiberglass Fireproof Bag looks pretty good to save important papers, overall.

In order to save wallet seeds, you need to make your polished stone a little bit wide in width and if you do so, they are easy to break if you put force on the centroid. One can make a thick polished stone but that can be a problematic to save and is impractical. Also, how are you going to write down your seeds on polished stone? Are you gonna hit hammer on nail on your polished stone?

Maybe because special equipment is required to apply text on a granite or marble slab? You're not ready to show your seed phrase to an engraver, right. Also, there is a size issue. A marble or granite plate will be larger than a fiberglass plate, for example. Otherwise, it will be fragile.

Cement is easily destroyed, especially if the manufacturing technology of this is not followed. Then you should prefer some polymeric compounds (based on marble, basalt, granite, quartz) that are used in the manufacture of stone countertops or sinks. But I can't say how polymer resins will behave in a fire.

In general, as I have said more than once: the choice of storage method and material is limited only by your imagination and goals.


What do you think I focused on? You highlighted this text in bold and simply described what I said in more detail. But thanks for your clarification.

I have nothing to add to this.

I guess it depends on the type of fire and the flame in the building. Some basic googling shows that house fire temperatures start from 1100°C and can go up to 3000°C depending on the flame. Wikipedia and some other sources say that fiberglass starts softening up at 1200°C and starts melting at 1700°C. Maybe it could survive the weakest of flames, but it stands no chance against the worst types of fires.

Why not using a polished stone instead or a granite/marble plaque used to decorate graves? I know it's quite difficult to engrave but it's very resistant to water and fire (even more than most of metals IMO) and it can't be detected by metal detectors, another option could be to use some cement, it's easier to engrave and to manipulate.

Another idea if you want to hide your seed phrase from metal detection. It is NOT to use metal plates. To do this, you can use plates from

1 - fiberglass or glass fiber laminate (without a metal layer of copper, so that the detector doesn't detect it), which has mechanical resistance, inertness to chemicals, moisture and water, resistance to thermal effects, but I suppose it will be vulnerable in a strong fire.

or

2 - ebonite, which is resistant to alkalis and acids, resistant to water, lends itself well to engraving (machining). Doesn't burn, but chars at high temperatures, which may make the text on the surface unreadable. So slightly brittle that it increases at low temperatures.

You can search for other materials with similar properties. These, of course, are a little exotic, but quite accessible if desired (depending on the location) and can be used to achieve OP's goals. You should also know that both fiberglass and ebonite come in different grades and have different characteristics. In general, if the goal is to make the seed phrase invisible to a metal detector and there is no threat of burning, then this option can be used.

So I made a crappy cover but luckily the bitcointalkers save me by writing interesting stuff  . That's also why I like to come on this forum, there will always be someone to save me and teach me something. By the way the hardwarewallets list is really great and the link too.

It's not a big mistake, s you can just add word - backups, so it would be something like this:
A) metal wallet backups and metal detectors.
B) metal seed words backups and metal detectors.
C) metal recovery phrase backups and metal  detectors.

I don't judge book by it's cover, it can have perfect title and be crap when you read it, same goes with forum topics.
It's better to have average title and good content and discussion

Is the scenario you are afraid is a thief carrying metal detector because onlyma thief that knew exactly what they are finding will put an effort to use this device compared on getting valuable things like jewelry, gadgets and other non-metal precious material. Afaik metal detector produce some noisy sounds so I doubt a thief will use it to scan a house and look for you steel plate private key. Although playing safe is not bad but I still don't read any news that a thief use a metal detector to scan their victim.

Anyway, this is why privacy matters most to protect your wallet. No one will attempt to steal your storage plates if they donihave any info that you have it inside your house.

Metal detectors are able to discriminate the kind of metal they are detecting, so they can easily discriminate the gold of jewelry from the copper of wires or the iron in the load-bearing walls for example. I don't think it should be as easy as detecting some gold or silver in a house, but in a small house or a flat it shouldn't be really long IMO.

For example, you could write metal seed storage plates because they are supposed to be the main focus of attention. And then you can mention in the OP the same phrase or change it a bit to metal plates for recovery phrases, etc.  

Thank you very much, I was far, far from imagining all these nuances and I see that I still have a lot to learn  

I now have so many tabs open with stuff to read that my pc will crash again   

What should I put as title please?

It's a small language barrier but don't worry about it, I understand what you wanted to say.
In fact there are few hardware wallet devices that are really made from stainless steel (like Keevo Model 1), so I just wanted to make clear difference between hardware wallets and wallet backups (metal plates, washers, etc).
Member maxirosson is maintaining a nice spreadsheet of popular hardware wallets and he recently added material they are build from:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-8DLbhxtOcDEBPl8-IAGWaoyx1H02JSz9hADCgAGyCo/edit#gid=0

Those are not "metal wallets" as you called them. Those are metal seed plates used for storing recovery phrases. Two very different things. You should consider editing the subject because most people got the wrong idea. I was also under the impression you were talking about the actual hardware wallet devices made of metal. That's why I mentioned Ledger with its metal cover as an example and couldn't think of any other similar product.

On the Internet, write that stainless steel types 304 and 316 are the worst to detect with a metal detector. Therefore, if your goal is to protect your wallet from a metal detector, then you can choose this type of steel.

So, I think that this metal is one of the best choices, along with the advantages that you describe. I would also add the ease of accessibility of stainless steel.


To outsmart an attacker with metal detector, you can make a distraction him from your metal wallet. For example, place the seed-phrase in a place where there are a lot of other metal things around. Better yet, place a metal wallet in some kind of metal structure consisting of iron (this is most often found in our daily life), for example. Thus, the top layer of metal will act as a screen, under which the metal wallet will not be detected.

It should be taken into account that the metal wallet is not defined in any other way: visually, tactilely or otherwise.

When I read this kind of answer, I think that I don't know how to ask a question, that there is a language problem or that I give the impression of being completely stupid. Maybe all three at the same time? 
Otherwise thanks for the link at the end, it's not bad.

Most hardware wallets are not made from metal and stainless steel, so you don't have to worry about that.
Ledger does have one metal part made from stainless steel, but it only serves as protection for fragile plastic body and you can easily remove it yourself.
However, stainless steel is used a lot for backing up seed words, but you can add many metal decoys that would confuse metal detectors, like aluminum,  lead, and certain types of clothes.

OneKey is making product called OneKey KeyTag, that is made from titanium and it's not expensive at all.
You can get two plates for $59, and they often give some discounts.
https://www.onekey.so/products/onekey-keytag

Well, this is a bit off-topic, but it's true that it's a great idea to have a notebook made of stone paper. You can even find cheap ones, a little more anonymous we'll say ...

https://studioartshuffle.com/products/cahier-dannotation-en-papier-de-pierre-couverture-turquoise

What do you have to lose if a thief gains access to your hardware wallet?

Decrypting the private key (brute force attack) usually takes several hours, and then you can easily use your seed and withdraw your coins.
You can buy several hardware wallets and load them with zero bitcoins, then you will increase the time that thief needs to access your real coins.

if metal wallet is what excites you, you can try: Stonebook ™ Notebook for Cryptocurrency Private Keys Waterproof/Ghost Pen/Shieldcrypt technology

The writing technic I mentioned allow you for example to make your backup on a ceramic board, to protect it from broking you can put it in a case of composite materials.. add a layer of glass wool for additional protection and encapsulate all on a clay brick you made or on a rock you made from concrete, if you want bury it on the soil !


Or about metal plates maybe you can hide them inside the panel of a safe ??



But I think that if a robber have an access and get the time for finding your hidden backup he can use a large variety of more sofisticated instruments.. like these (sonars) that gives clear images of the buried objects ! and that are actually quite approachable technologies!

As far as I know, depth also matters.  The deeper you bury it, the harder they find it.

I remember some body saying it would be a good idea to bury some random stainless steel bolts and stuff like in between the thing you want to hide and the ground.  But bury them as if some body accidentally dropped them there, not all stuck together.  No idea if this actually is a good tip.

Then there are people who bury their valuables under a tree.  Again.  Maybe this does not add any security at all against metal detectors.

This makes me wonder.  What happens if you bury random copper stuff from a hardware store over the stainless steel plate you want to bury?  If the copper stuff you bury exceeds the size of the stainless steel plate, would it pick up stainless steel too?  There should be a metal burglars or even metal detector enthusiasts are least likely to dig up.

Hello,

I don't see what's not clear: I reread my message, I don't know what to change. Or is it a translation problem? With a picture it's better? As for the metalwallets, look at Jameson Lopp's tests and you'll know what it means 

https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-tests-round-v/

What kind of metal detector are you talking about? is this the one used to detect metal on a surface object? Also about the wallet that you say is a metal wallet, is this the ledger, Nano or what?

As it is not clear what you want to convey, can you clarify what you are really referring to in this topic that you have made here.

Maybe.. another case is to be in control .. in example

I think you have to be a bit cheap not to buy a ready-made metal wallet, don't you?
Anyway, that's not the point, the point is that it's not detectable by a burglar. But for the moment in France anyway, a burglar wouldn't know what it is and he won't know it for at least a good ten years... The advantage of being late in a way ...

If you're afraid about simple metal detectors, you can just make a hiding in near of the pillars for example where there is habitually steel for reinforcing the concrete! (I think)



About writing in plates I don't miss the occasion to remind about my little trick about it 

Actually you can use any kind of plate you want and writing on it by coding the words in morse alphabet (for exemple)!

So just by using two sizes of metal drills you can write by makink two small holes for ( long : _ ) and one large hole for ( short : . ) .

So the word "METAL" could looks like this !

	--	*	--	*	*
	--			--	--
					*
					*

[/font]


A this like it is more simple I you want coding the phrase in your own..

or you can also choose to write in some form of freemasonic ciphering, it can also transcribed just by drilling on the plate !

The model you show is super expensive, well unless you have millions, you can probably go for a cheaper model; the one from cryptotag is in titanium and much less expensive (https://cryptotag.io/products/zeus-starter-kit/).
And maybe look at the great tests of jameson Lopp on metalwallets (https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/). But this is not the initial subject anymore ...

Well, instead of hardware wallet, you can buy Trezor's titanium backup system, store your seeds into it and then save safely. Alternatively, seems, there is a company that makes Titanium hardware wallets but that just comes from quick google search, I don't know a thing about them but still worth to check, sounds interesting: Corazon Titanium.
Or just write down your seeds on paper and save it somewhere where thieves won't start searching, for example behind the wallpaper of living room, idk, that's up to you.

Titanium is probably the gold standard (pun intended) metal to use. It has a slightly higher yield strength than stainless steel, has a slightly higher melting point, is slightly less reactive, is slightly less conductive, and so on, but it is also significantly more expensive. These extra benefits are almost certainly meaningless - both will survive any kind of house fire or other household accidents or events equally well (provided they are of sufficient thickness), and it would take things like exposure to a blast furnace or some industrial strength acid before you noticed a difference.

If you have some titanium lying around then go ahead and use it, but there is no point coughing up the extra money when stainless steel will work just as well for all realistic eventualities.

This! If you use stainless steel with small washers the whole thing will be around 2.5 cm by 6 cm, easy to hide, with poor conductivity a thief will have to increase the pulse of the detector to a frequency where every hinge in the room will trigger a signal even if they are a meter away, if you hide this in a garage or in a cabinet made out of metal any metal detector would be useless and going through the things by hand will be way faster.

But also, this is only if we talk about commercial detectors.
Professional magnetometers with scan analysis will show the user every tiny bit of metal everywhere, but I somehow doubt a thief will rush and buy a 25k Euros piece of equipment to search for washers in your home.


If you have someone who is ready to break into your house with this target in mind, knowing you have enough coins to make it worth stealing and facing prison time then one should be concerned for their safety also. From just a "normal" burglary to getting kidnapped or assaulted and getting to witness a  $5 dollar wrench attack it's just a matter of how much $ you are hiding.

Titanium is expensive, and you aren't going to see it in ordinary hardware wallets unless a company creates something like that for VIPs and similar. Ledger's cover is made of stainless steel for example, so that's a more frequent material. Besides the connectors and boards that have some metal components, I can't think of a popular hardware wallet with a metal back cover or a big metal part like that of Ledger.

Are you also talking about the metal seed plates or only hardware wallets?

Ah yes that's it, that's why I didn't understand really the previous answer, but it's true that it must not pass very well at the airport portals I suppose. However, it seems that stainless steel is not detectable by burglars' metal detectors.

According to my internet research, like stainless steel, an ordinary metal detector cannot locate titanium because it has low electrical conductivity.

It depends what metal you use.

The general advice if going for a metal back up is to use stainless steel, since this gives a good balance between hardness, fire proof, corrosion proof, as well as cost. In general, stainless steel is a very poor conductor of electricity and poorly magnetic when compared to most other metals, and can often go undetected by metal detectors, especially if it is very small in size. If you are very concerned about such an attack, then just use two or more paper back ups in different geographical locations. This is generally better than a single metal back up anyway.

I have to say though, if you have a thief in your house using a metal detector to find your metal back up, then your op-sec has spectacularly failed and everything you have is probably at risk by that point.

I think you misunderstood OP. He is not talking about the metal detectors in airports or government buildings, but hand-carried devices. As in, a thief entering your home with a metal detector and scanning your house with it. Our homes have metal anyways. In walls, the floor, and ceiling. You have pipes and wires running everywhere. You have the supporting metal structure, then screws and nails in your furniture. I guess the metal detector would be buzzing more often then you think. 

Yes, it would definitely be detected by metal detectors if you're passing through the machine.

• I find it cumbersome to carry bitcoins with you in metal wallets when travelling. You can keep that in a secure location and take a paper backup of the seedphrase with you. It's easier to travel with and not easily detectable.

• Simply putting something around them would not prevent detection.

Hello, I would like to know if the new generation metal detectors detect or not the stainless steel of which the metal stuff for seed storage are made. Indeed, if these wallets are detectable, then we should probably think about changing the hiding place or put something around them to avoid that the metal detectors find them, no? What do you think about it?