Topic: can mining algorithyms be changed to benefit humanity (Read 3380 times)

the solution is they should write out some kind of explanation of their stance in some format that is more durable and presentable.

I've used online forums a lot and I also sympathize with the other side of things.  Especially recently with the runup in BTC price, I imagine the veterans are suddenly having to contend with a flood of ignoramuses with 'brilliant ideas'.  For instance Reddit is a great way to determine popularity, perhaps the worst way to determine validity.

I agree. And have you noticed that most of the time the attitudes are from Hero members with high activity numbers?

Ken,

  agree with you that some of the attitudes here are not constructive.

  Doesn't the forum software filter out irrelevant posts that no one reads?  Obviously this is a topic of great interest to the public, and not well presented.  Unfortunately some here see this as a problem rather than an opportunity.

-bm

Thank you for your kind words and for standing up for what is decent.  Perhaps if more members in your movement come out publicly like you just did with the right attitude, your movement will eventually gain real traction.

All the best.

I'm sorry that you have found the worst side of this forum's trolls. I have also endured their unnecessary banality and harshness. I'm not in this moment to collaborate with them. My goal is to use Bitcoin as a vehicle to change the world's money system.

Please understand that while your question is valid and should receive an answer, bitcointalk really isn't the place to answer it. In the coming months, we'll build better communities that are more respectful and willing to listen. I hope you'll join us.

Until then, thank you for the opportunity to meet and I wish you well.

Actually, sir or madam, I've gotten just enough snarky comments, and been shown enough disrespect by others for my little question (which some seem to think is a good idea and even feasible), that I think I will take your advice and move on. 

Over the course of this post I have gone from being a Bitcoin enthusiast--to not wanting to have anything to do with it.  In ten years on the internet I have only a few times been treated in the rude and disrespectful manner some of you have shown. 

Thank you for helping to reveal to me that yours is a movement where I don't belong and should not transact business--nor should my large family business accept Bitcoin.  I will be selling my mining rigs and donate the proceeds to BOINC, with the suggestion that they use the proceeds to research how to make it feasible for gamers to contribute GPU time to projects like BOINC.

It is now clear to me that you have a very uphill fight to gain the kind of confidence your movement seems to desire--beyond the support you have garnered on the Silk Road.  Your peers talk about making the world a better place with this project's remedy to the world's problems--but there are too many flies in the ointment for my taste and I don't think most people, in the long run, will choose to do business in this manner.

Though I do wish the best of luck to those of you who have been polite and informative to me in the past.

Get me out of here!

That would work great if a browser bundle such as the Tor Browser was made. Manually programming and unprogramming the DNS isn't fun.

Can't all the games gamers play be modified to benefit humanity? Go bother them, there are more of them than us.

agreed namecoin is downright essential for a censorship free internet, I hope everyone is supporting namecoin with some processing power. We should all start registering our domains through it.

The biggest benefit for the humanity is to weaken the supercontrol of superstates over the individuals.
Then research will be used more for the human interests as more we can achieve this with decentralized finance and domain system.
Bitcoin and Namecoin is serving indirect for this purpose. And mining  has an important role in this process.

Then join a project you find more rewarding, like World Community Grid, wich have biological and medical projects

sure why not? AIcoin?

the problems that AIs face is not daunting, you just have to simplify it, what does a AI need? What problems does it have to solve?

image recognition
audio processing
language processing
logic processing
pattern recognition
semantics processing etc

the problems built into a strong foundation would auto generate into real world solutions the complexity would increase naturally, no need for a timer, the problems will level out themselves as long as a broad and thorough foundation is built for it.

the technology is already out there, but as discussed on this thread Bitcoin already has the security and system worked out, all that would be needed is to build the system and then let people work on the system for free and when people donate to the AIcoin AI daemon it distributes the coins with a properly thought out incentive system. something along the lines of

minimum wage for average processing power +/- from that point according to the results provided, more results with more performance equals greater share of the donations.
This would need to be calculated by the average donations given over the life of the project.

Here's my crazy idea for changing proof of work to create a rapidly evolving artificial intelligence: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/crazy-idea-aicoin-215333

Even if it works, it might not be a good idea

there are all types here on the forums but mainly it seems that we are a technical bunch working out how to understand the system that was built and poking at it, trying to break it, Most people do not understand money. so I will tell you what Bitcoin truly is

Bitcoin is a money transfer system made to exchange from one currency to another anywhere in the world. The money aspect of it is inherent in its nature... to transfer money it has to be money as well, but money with far more flexibility than normal money to handle individual preferences, it has a language of it's own to create custom financial services depending on the users needs, it is ultra secure, has little to no fees, can transfer funds instantaneously around the world with a fee based security confirmation period to guarantee transaction integrity; Bitcoin makes individuals into their own banks, it has effectively automated the banking industry.

this is a massive experiment, that is accruing data not just from the blockchain but from the people who are creating products for it or simplifying it or altering the system, you can look at the scrypt examples from litecoin, or the pummeling it is getting from satoshi dice to see how people are trying to break it and how the people themselves are reacting to these changes... it is a experiment of unprecedented proportions around a simplified system: money.

right now Bitcoin is the most secure system for transferring a Points based currency, The complexity of creating a Proof Of Work from scientific data is definitely daunting, building on top of bitcoin is the answer, the security of the currency doesn't have to be put into question.

A great aspect of bitcoin is since it can create any entity into being a bank, it means that A.I.s can use this currency to provide automated escrow services, or in the case of a system like F@H a reward system to be distributed to all data processors; now there will always be people willing to give their processing away for free but when you can see how much more powerful Bitcon is than F@H you begin to understand that not all people are motivated by complex difficult to understand values... money, anyone can understand, that is what is holding back F@H it relies on deep thinking, intelligent people... most people just want to get drunk and get lucky.

Regardless if they are contributing to society or building their own prison; people work not because they believe in the work they get paid to do, its just a job and we can never hope to motivate these people with our values, we have to work with the values they have been brainwashed into accepting.

so all we have to do is convince the people at Boinc to provide a fee based processing system, and with the new breakthrough in Homomorphic encryption we can now process private data from corporations and government without them worrying about us working for the competition. So relax brother we just have to wait for someone to implement the Bitcoin pay per cycle system and they will see how much more people get motivated to help the rest of humanity.

 

I'd like to thank everyone in this thread who answered my question about using Bitcoin verifying computer power directly for something useful-- in a positive tone, and who referred me to other sources.

A few of you raised some interesting and perplexing issues.

I am genuinely perplexed by the comment,

"Sigh.  Stick around for a while and you'll see why most of your suggestions on manners are unworkable".

"There are demons lurking in the corners, just waiting to swallow the careless."

I'm sure the latter statement is true.  The internet in general seems to be perfectly reflective of life in general.  But surely it can't be true that in order to communicate and do business, that we have to adopt the lingo and mannerisms of the thugs?  In fact, in life, and on the internet most don't do that.  In life and on the internet there are two domains (roughly)--the domain of the reasonably "respectable" who act and communicate with a reasonable amount of decorum.  And the domain of the evil thugs.

Are you saying that the Bit coin world has become so influenced by the latter that falling to that level is warranted and necessary--for whatever reason.  Or that the people most interested in joining the community are the thugs..so one has to speak their language?

One thing I have noticed--having read the Newbie pages and researched what is going on...is that on the one hand, the uber-goal of bit-coiners is to have the movement become mainstream and, in so doing, revolutionize the way the world does business--for the betterment of humanity.  There is passion for this--though some of this passion comes from a politically extreme end of the spectrum--which is a bit unsettling to some.  Although I think that those of us who are not Libertarians in the real world and who don't want Vermont to become a free state--take a more naive Marxist rather than hard core communist view of the kind of Libertarianism Bit coin poses.

I also see a long of young people frustrated with the world economy who have been given hope by the movement.

At the same time though, I must say that my impression so far is that the Bit coin world has evolved into a very closed "society"--replete with a language of its own, an odd set of acceptable social morays of its own, etc.  There are several pages in the Newbie material defining the many colorful, but bizarre expressions used in Bit coin parlance.

If it is the goal of the movement to become mainstream and to change the world--surely you don't at the same time expect that the world to be willing to learn dozens and dozens of new words for concepts ranging from the simple to the completely arcane?

I never asked or expected to be spoon fed information (though I expect if you want the world to come a long that is precisely what you are going to have to figure out how to do).

I am a reasonably intelligent person with a higher education--and for what it is worth coming from an outsider--what is going on here is way too complex in its current form (from concept, to language to implementation) to ever be ready for prime time in the real world.

I have tried and failed to explain the basic concept to others.  I have tried and failed to use the tools available (the exchanges, the wallets, etc.) as a means through which I can securely store wealth and transact business.

But that's not my problem (yet).  What would really be sad is if all of you who have done so much gratis work for this project--will in the future have the fruits of your toil co-opted by others who realize that the thing right now is just too complex and frankly--a bit strange.

The reason I personally am interested in the original issue I raised about making better use of the computer power involved in Bitcoin, is the following.

I happen to not have a job because I am disabled.  I have spent time since becoming disabled reaching out to the world through projects such as getting kids worldwide interested in math and science through Astronomy.  I am also, like someone else who commented on the thread, in the top 1% of BOINC users.

I have a lot of time and energy to contribute to a worthy cause--and I happen to agree that the basic Bit coin model is inspiring.

I happen to be comfortable enough financially that I don't need to strike it rich as a prospector--though it seemed interesting enough to try (as a learning experience and financial game) to try my hand at mining on a not insignificant scale (12K in lite coin type GPU mining rigs--18 7970s).  And yes, I will be donating what I gain to NPOs and causes I believe in "for the betterment of humanity".

So if you need someone to formulate educational ideas, etc--maybe I'm your man.  Because you definitely need this as a community.  Everything I've discovered clearly points to the fact that the concept is sound--but needs to be simplified, and aside from technical advances-- just streamlined conceptually

So naturally I am interested in the idea of using the computing power used in verifying blocks to, at the same time, contribute to our well being as a species in other areas.  It is not enough and very facile to just say that the benefits of the Bitcoin itself to the world is enough to justify the use of energy and computational power.

This issue, as one of you has pointed out, in responding that it is not impossible to harness this power, is not trivial.  It also just happens to be, in my view, one of the stumbling blocks associated with the public's resistance to the idea.  It is the part of the concept which seems a bit fishy--until explained at a level far too deep to be of any real interest or value to the average person.

Wouldn't it be such a natural fit and easy sell if you could say everything you are saying already--with the added dimension of at the same time creating a supercomputer network to do cancer research?

I know many of you feel that the public will eventually just have to go along with the idea--perhaps without even knowing that they are doing that--just as we all had to figure out how to use Paypal if we wanted to certain types of internet transactions (and regretted it later when our accounts were frozen).

A lot of people also keep saying, when it comes to the crypto currency movement and alt coins in particular--that it is the coin which will really bring something new to the table that will be the major player still standing at the end of the day.  Do you guys really aspire to become "Netscape"?

I think it is quite possible the harnessing of the calculations themselves to do something useful might well be the thing which seals the deal.  It would make it hard for the government to object, make people feel good about using the currency and help the movement shed its seedy silk road associations.  Not saying that gangsters wouldn't still use it to launder their money--just saying from a PR Point of view it is irresistible.

I don't have the background to even follow much of what was outlined in this link (though I am in awe of whoever wrote it):

- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/least-action-principle-as-an-alternative-proof-of-work-system-108888

But if it is possible--I'd certainly be willing to support a serious effort to make it feasible.  I'd even be willing to try to do it within the framework of Bitcoin itself (rather than an Altcoin)--because Bitcoin is where all the blood, sweat and tears has been invested.

But you guys are a very strange bunch and you also seem to be a bit war weary and shell shocked--radicalized even to the point of some of you having forgotten basic common decency--over the gosh knows what kind of challenges you have faced in the past couple of years.

You are also a scary bunch in that half the time, I have no idea with whom I am dealing--silk roader? idealist? speculator? IT nerd? Political agitator? etc., etc.,

So that is what is on my mind.  I think it would be best to see if what I say strikes a spark in any of you.

All the best.

Cheers,

Ken

I'm guessing you actually mean redirecting 10% of all hashpower. How would us submitting hashes do anything helpful? A SHA256 hash won't bring development forward for SHA-4 or something.

Would it be possible to use the difficulty level somehow as a base of computation derived for other kinds of research?

What if for instance, difficult is reduced 10% and that extra 10% goes to some researching by using some algorithm that makes sure that it actually goes for that purpose and bring the same security than the current protocol offers so it can be hackable?

Related:

BTC-like cryptocurrency with arbitrary tradeable computation in proofs of work
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/btc-like-cryptocurrency-with-arbitrary-tradeable-computation-in-proofs-of-work-64421

Least action principle as an alternative proof of work system
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/least-action-principle-as-an-alternative-proof-of-work-system-108888

Curecoin beta?
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/curecoin-beta-225895  <-- I can't remember if this was an authentic attempt or a scamcoin proposal,  

Crazy idea: AICoin
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/crazy-idea-aicoin-215333

[Edited: Added entry for AICoin]

The answer is actually yes. The proof of work can be modified to allow distributed computing projects be involved in the verification of blocks. This topic is non-trivial and would require an extremely deep discussion. No one has done it and it isn't possible to do with that way Bitcoin works at the moment. It would require an altcoin.

Sigh.  Stick around for a while and you'll see why most of your suggestions on manners are unworkable.  There are more of these topics than you can imagine.  I actually was working on a set of canned replies, complete with useful links.  I already have a full time job.  I don't have enough time in my days to do anything useful if I'm spending my days as a google proxy.

Also, bitcoin is a big complicated system.  There are demons lurking in the corners, just waiting to swallow the careless.  If you hope to understand it, you need to do research.  Lots and lots of research.  I'm sorry that we can't spoon feed you what you need to know, but, we can't.  There are people working on education projects, and lots of us are contributing time and money to help them.  But most of us don't have the resources to do individual training for everyone that walks in the door.

The quick answer, in case anyone finds this thread instead of the dozens of others on the topic, is that the proof of work algorithm needs a constellation of peculiar properties.  Hashing is a perfect fit.  It can be chained, it can protect arbitrary data, it is fast to verify, it has a very large range, and there are no major shortcuts possible.  So far as we can tell, nothing else does everything we need.

Hopefully, if Bitcoin really takes off there will be a million more people with the same question.  I really did look around, read the Newbie section, etc and found nothing--so perhaps senior members might want to organize something to underscore that it is important to always be positive and informative.

It's just one opinion but for what is may be worth, I don't think you should expect new people to do tons of research in a forum with which they are unfamiliar...it's good that these things come into people's minds--and I think the expectation that most should or will self educate is erroneous.  As an outsider--with a fresh point of view--as a consultant, if you will--I think for the good of the movement--senior members should either ignore dumb questions--provide links--but certainly *never* use a negative tone.

You should be glad this is happening and develop a positive strategy to deal with it.

For example I would encourage senior members to type up a canned reply (each different for each member) which can quickly be pasted into a response and modified a bit to suit the particular inquiry--the important thing is that the tone be positive, polite and informative--such as

"As a senior member of the community, I would like to welcome you.  There are no dumb questions and we very much appreciate your interest.  As you become more familiar with the forum, you will find that issues such as the one you just addressed has been discussed--and there are many good comments to ponder on the subject.  Here is where you might want to go to research this issue:....."

You guys shouldn't be getting frustrated but rather see it as an opportunity--and develop a strategy to capitalize on the interest.  If a junior member had made that comment I would not have taken much notice--but I think it is important for senior members to develop a policy for dealing with Newbies in a manner which will grow the movement and encourage participation.

Now where exactly can I go to get a full discussion of my particular question, please?  If it is so easy to find, it should be easy to pass on.  But when you look--try looking from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what he is doing and is completely unfamiliar with the subject and the structure of the forum.

Want to propose a method for it to become rewarding? Submit work for worthless SETICoin in return?

I believe so. I used to join in the SETI@Home program. It's funny, but not that.....rewarding.

Heh.  If you'd searched, you'd have seen that we were nice to the first ten thousand people posting these repeat threads...

Try not to take it personally.  There are a lot of topics that everyone thinks they were the first person to think of, but we see them every few days and get burned out trying to answer over and over again.

Project like F@H will probably be as good as it gets for a while for mass distributed humanitarian causes. I still won't donate my PS3 power though as I'm worried I'll cut it's life short.

No, I would still mine bitcoins instead of perform the scientific computations because mining bitcoins just doesn't pay me directly, it also secures the blockchain and therefore protects my bitcoin investment and helps bitcoin succeed which is something I strongly believe in.

I did try to look for this topic and came up with nothing useful--probably because I am too new to know what search terms to enter.  I think a useful response from you might have been to point me towards a thread.

I do think that screaming at a new person and boarder line verbally abusing him just because you don't like something he posts is not only very rude--it is also counterproductive to the goal of getting people to join the Bit coin movement.  Maybe that's the normal way people communicate around here, but if you are seriously interested in going mainstream with Bit coin--you should think twice before making such a post in response to a sincere question from a Newbie...Your response really makes me wonder what this movement is really all about.  It certainly won't succeed if this is the kind of welcome you afford new members.

Until I read what you wrote I was very seriously considering really getting involved (above and beyond making some fast cash from a 12K investment in a mining rigs)--now I will pull back to see whether it looks like most people around here behave the way you do.  If you do want Bit coin to succeed you will need people like me, and it would therefore be in your own best interest to re evaluate the way you treat people like me--because Bit coin won't succeed without people like me.

I have no idea where you are coming from or what you agenda is--and I'm really not that thin skinned. I only wish to point out that as more people become interested--they won't stay interested with the unnecessary kind of abuse you just threw in my face.  I am not interested in becoming involved in a movement in which rude behavior is the norm.  

Bitcoin is going to be a HUGE benefit for the humanity.

Our grandchildren will study history of Bitcoin, like the biggest revolution after internet. 

Yes donate a portion of new coins to charity ... easy ...

I run BOINC on a couple of PC mining machines 24/7 with no conflicts. I don't let BOINC use the graphics cards though. I'm in the top 1% of all BOINC users worldwide, so it absolutely can be done. You could start to do it today - no need to wait for algorithm changes, no need to ask permission - just do it and feel good tomorrow.     

Physics and Proteomics, and other sciences can be used for a proof of work.

but the math required to convert a SHA256(simple algorithm) into a currency that by decentralization can verify problems of hundreds of orders of magnitude greater is a very daunting task.

One would be to find primes, if someone created a prime based currency it is possible, to create new money each block would be finding a new prime found at a specific time and easily provable by dividing it by something other than 1 or itself.

complex proteomics is a level of mathematics that would as well be easy to verify but very hard to reproduce the results, the need here would be to supply enough genetics problems for the network to use... what if you run out? and when you fold or simulate a molecule it is random when someone will find a solution.

same for a massive science initiative where all atomic properties are recorded and slowly new molecules and particles of ever increasing complexity are being simulated, The block ledger for all these examples would time stamp when the solution or simulation was completed and would easily be verifiable by a computer but very difficult to create. 

With these initiatives and the soon to be turned off GPU power aligned to these projects massive processing power can be used to maintain the networks security, slowly going form simple molecule simulation to multi cellular simulations of DNA, Cells, entire organisms and maybe entire ecosystems.

so yes it is possible to create a proof of work made from scientific data, it is nothing more than math and even the Cheats would be creating particles to be simulated that had some value since a complex molecule would take the same time to simulate as a useful one from stanford.

Distributed computing is about donating computing power. If the companies would have enough money to pay you, then they simply would not need you. They could just get the computing power in a more efficient way (aka, supercomputers)
Note that almost all BOINC projects are projects from universities or other non profit teams.

hrm... last  I checked, bitcoin does benefit humanity =P

holy crap this has been asked many times. SERIOUSLY, SEARCH BEFORE POSTING

The reason the Bitcoin network requires a large amount of computing power is to enable decentralization, with a proof-of-work being the tool employed.

But that computing power is for a specific purpose, ... to make it so that the decentralization is immune to corruption.   That's the only reason there is this large amount of computing power.

But the proof-of-work computation that is performed is useless for anything else.  

Now that doesn't mean there computing resources that Bitcoiners will (soon) abandon can't still have use for scientific purposes.

CoinLab was making inroads to doing this but got stuck on how distributed scientific computing is a hard problem to solve with little opportunity to monetize it.

So essentially, the Bitcoin project has paid the way for there to be many tens of thousands of (soon-to-become) unused GPUs that have potential value for doing scientific computing work.
 

I think the only thing ASICs can help you out with other than mining Bitcoin is hashing AES encrypted SHA256 hashes very fast for password breaking. Wouldn't affect TrueCrypt as they use SHA-512.

ignoring ASICS i think if scientific research companies gave a small financial incentive such as a similar amount to the dollar value someone earns mining bitcoin on their 800mhash GPU. then people would definitely dedicate their computing power to help humanity.

for instance people can mine bitcoins for a $71 a month income on a single 800mhash GPU
so if they were offered $71 a month for non bitcoin tasks, ofcourse they would go for it

The more secure the algorithms make Bitcoin, the more benefit for humanity we receive.

It already benefits humanity. I'm human and it benefits me and gives us namecoins too. It's a win-win.

No.

Unfortunately, no it's not possible because you're including data from the block, as a means for block chain verification, in the problem/answer. So any math problem you use has to include that data. Second you have to be able to adjust the difficulty of the problem so that no matter how much computing power goes toward solving it solutions can remain limited over time.

Probably an ignorant question from a newbie--but
has anyone considered whether or not the math problems solved in mining operations could be changed to math problems which could benefit humanity--such as using the computing power to help research efforts supported by BOINC, for example.  If you are unfamiliar with BOINC--it is an umbrella for projects which pool the idle computing power of many individuals into a "supercomputer"--to solve research questions in fields from medicine to physics to climate change.

Rather than have the math problem computers crunch to verify a block during the mining process--would it be possible to at the same time make the math problem one that would contribute to research efforts?

Cheers,

Ken