Topic: Can we avoid crypto taxes with other users assistance? (Read 368 times)

Glad to see you understand my point.

By the definition, tax avoidance is legal while tax evasion is illegal, but both of them are using a loopholes from the tax laws.

Imagine if someone make $10 Million per year by freelancing which make he get taxed on the highest income tax bracket i.e. 37%. He want to declare his income as a corporate income which make him need to pay only for 21%.

Here's the illustration:

Bob (millionaire): Hello Mr. Jack, I want to declare my personal income as corporate income, how to do this?
Jack (accountant): Mr. Bob, why you want to do that? I will report you to tax officer!

This is incorrect as far as Spain is concerned. The person who has done so thinks that in Spain taxes on cryptocurrency gains are counted in the general income tax base, which, depending on the region, is around 50% at its maximum rate. This is the case for gambling winnings, for example. However, gains from cryptocurrency trading are declared as capital income, which is taxed according to the following brackets:

an idea that people can work together to achieve a way of legal tax avoidance

change the DEX software
instead of being an exchange.. call it a loan agreement (a change of GUI wording.. not of coded protocol)

heres what i mean
instead of you handing someone your coin and they hand you fiat (tax trigger)
change the WORDING
change it to 'locking up collateral for a loan' where the terms are to take the coin in exchange for a fiat loan

then when you deposit the coin into escrow(DEX) it uses the software to create a document displaying a loan agreement and settlement paperwork. and the receipt of fiat. *

the reality is still swapping coin for fiat. but the WORDING becomes a loan thats settled at delivery of fiat

remember loans are tax free.. wink wink

* i am not suggesting setting up actual loan companies with corporate charters and stupid small print that allows the fiat giver to chase the coin giver forever.. im talking about DEX software creating a receipt for the trade. that is written in very basic laymans with no clauses, a personal loan where that loan was performed and settled in the instant that the fiat was given and the coin was unlocked from the multisig/smartcontract escrow where the loan is settled and complete. no small print, no clauses.

yep a simple change from a receipt of exchange reworded to a settled loan. becomes legal paper proof of a loan that is not taxible

There are countries that have imposed taxes which means they haven't banned the crypto but there are countries like mine that have banned the crypto so it means they didn't impose any taxes on it as they have banned it legally. But people are still into crypto and not paying taxes. My opinion in this for the country is they should make crypto legal and put some tax. That way it will be helpful for them as well.

And talking about your question, I also had the same one for a long time, but I assume in that case you have to trust other party living in another country where taxes are low or no taxes, with your money. Even if the other person is your relative or your brother, the availability of funds won't be at same level that they will be if in your possession.

I am not a legal advisor so I only shared my opinion not a legal advise thanks.

The only taxes we pay in my country is stamp duty on every credit received by citizens irrespective of the source, and normal Personal Income Tax (PIT) for those officially working in reputable organizations that do declare taxes of their employees. There is nothing like crypto taxes here. There was a process in place to regulate cryptocurrency to be able to fix appropriate taxes on cryptocurrency but seems that bill did not see the light of the day because our politicians are heavily invested in cryptocurrency using proxies. I actually feel scared seeing that some countries taxes cryptocurrency as high as 45%. It make me wonder how crypto users cope in those countries.

It's hard to believe but unfortunately the numbers mentioned in that table are true, and it is on each of these countie's law and crypto regulations.

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You didn't read the title or the whole topic ? Your answer seem to be about taxes in general for every citizen, while my topic here is only limited to crypto, when someone tries to withdraw or trade his crypto for fiat, in some regions as mentioned in the topic, they have to pay up to 50% as tax fees. However, there are some other countries where they don't have clear rules for crypto or they don't even track your translations which means they don't tax your assets in a way or another.

I don't think there's a country on planet earth that isn't a tax paying nation, as taxes is one of the major means for IGR for almost every country so the place of tax is something that can't be taken away in any country, the difference is in the fact that some countries have got a very comprehensive taxing system as compared to others especially when making comparison between developing and already developed countries with their taxing system and pattern then the difference becomes very clear. For countries where their taxation isn't comprehensive it sometimes feels like they are have some who do not pay tax and some actually are able to bypass taxation.

Because of their system of taxation these area could ha e possible way of bypassing tax payment but for countries where they have got a comprehensive taxation system I don't any of the ways used to bypass it in other countries will work you just have to maintain your taxing system or look for a way to appeal for a cheeper tax payment rather.

Tax evasion is a crime, and it should be taken into account when thinking about ways of not paying taxes. So, the way I see it, there are several options here.
One is to pay taxes that your country requires. After all, as the table shows, the taxation is usually progressive, so if your crypto income is low, it's unlikely that your tax rate will be high. Another option is to officially register one's business in a tax haven (for example, in El Salvador), but I think it's better to do things like that in person, instead of relying on other people. Finally, in some countries, tax evasion may not be a serious crime and may not actually be prosecuted, unless it's a part of a case with a different and bigger crime (like theft, bribery, scamming people, etc). I know such places exist because I live in such a country, where tax authorities are very weak and paying taxes is de facto voluntary rather than obligatory.

The problem is how to find a trustworthy accountant? And where do you rely to ensure 100% that that accountant will not betray you or try to harm you when they know you intend to evade taxes?

I don't know whether trying to avoid taxes in your country is common and considered the right action. But I know it's against the law because the government won't like this, so once we intend to do things that may be illegal, it's best not to let a second person know. Because there is no guarantee that they will keep your secret. Not to mention whether bitcoin is legal in your country or not, because if it is illegal then your crime is even worse.

In pur country, theres what we call tax avoidance which is legal. In the Philippines, tax avoidance and accountants can be a big help with that. They know the ins and outs of the tax system and can guide you on how to legally minimize your tax bill. Just remember that tax avoidance is about using the rules to your advantage, while tax evasion is a big no-no and can get you in serious trouble. So if you want to keep more of your hard-earned money in your pocket, it's worth consulting with a trusted accountant who can steer you in the right direction

Every tax law has a loophole. Do you really think that these big giant monster companies pay 100% of their taxes? No, they find loopholes and use loopholes. To be honest, loopholes are created for such companies to not pay taxes but overall laws apply to average Joe and governments expect that average Joe will pay as he is supposed to pay and he doesn't have enough power to use loopholes.
There are many things that you can do to avoid crypto taxes but you have to know the law of your country at first.

In some countries if you hold your coins for specific period of times, you don't have to pay crypto taxes. Also, if no one knows that you own crypto, you can pretty much sell them without anyone knowing that you owned a one. For example, you can use p2p decentralized exchanges. You can also marry to a woman who lives in a country where taxes are rarely paid and crypto is untaxed. Options are limitless.

It is true that some countries are taxing crypto investors quite high and they claim that it is a way to discourage people from getting involved in crypto. But they were wrong to introduce that policy because investors will find every way to avoid taxes because the tax rate is unacceptably high. But there are also some investors who are using bitcoin and cryptocurrency to avoid taxes, they have no intention of paying even the smallest tax to the government. I'm pretty sure the majority of investors here don't want to pay taxes regardless of the amount. That is also the reason many governments do not like bitcoin or cryptocurrency.

I don't understand with people who advising to seek an accountant, you're risking yourself if you do that because you will tell anything to your accountant, then this accountant can attack you whenever they want. And... what about you fall to the trap of a tax officer that pretends to be a public accountant?

That being said, if you want to hide something, make sure you can hide it from anyone else.

It's really difficult and a lot of risk is involved as one can use get it exchanged with friends or family members living in tax free nations but how will you get it in your bank or cash in hand as fiat? Even they have to transfer it through an international payment modes which involves tax and if crosses a lot you have to show the proof of that incoming transaction to the government. Either keep hodling in BTC until there are any changes in the rules or pay taxes, there are lot of processes involved to get it changed through foreign resources but involves risk and multiple processes and can be used for huge amount not for smaller transactions.

I this things are been over hyped in many of these countries. Why on earth would I have to pay tax reaching up to 56%?
This is crazy and it shows that the government do not want anyone to be Bitcoin investor. If I am leaving in any of these countries, I would always look for a way to bypass paying such an heavy tax to the government. The tax is far too much and this can make an investor rethinks and halt the idea of investing in Bitcoin. We need to be wise and jump out of such region with heavy tax for us to live well as crypto investors.

Smart techniques and keeping whats yours are fine, but we're talking about playing by the rules.

Working with pals in tax-friendly areas? Though clever, its complicated. Remember that each country's tax regulations are complex and easy to get entangled in. A tax haven partner may raise flags faster than a rocket at my rally.

Listen carefully because this is where it gets good: focus on legitimate strategies. Consider legal crypto-friendly tax structures. Malta and Puerto Rico have welcomed crypto fans with cheaper taxes without any tricks.

Yes, you can maximize your taxes. Above board, always. Research the regulations, hire a crypto-savvy accountant, and make informed decisions. Avoiding taxes isnt enough - you also need to make sensible, lawful investments.

The problem is that the government that's inherently corrupt will almost always try to keep their hands on as much money as possible, remember that tax is their lifeblood and if the people stop paying them, they can't function and for those corrupt people in the government, they'll end up with nothing to pocket, that's why they try to squeeze you even more for the taxes because the budget that they've got is piling up because they overspend on some to purposefully pocket the surplus amount of money. As much as I want to say that I like normal working class people to be getting all the money that they want without paying the taxes, the problem is that the public works are going to suffer the most and you don't want to be crossing a nearly collapsing bridge because they used a substandard cement to finish that bridge. In regards to avoiding taxes, there's probably a way to do that but I'm not going to elaborate on that so people don't get any ideas.

Go for legitimate ways of reducing or avoiding your tax, that one might have just a small effect on you or may not have any effect at all but when you prefer to use illegal means to get off tax, you will end up to be discovered by the law enforcement and can face a very bad consequences. In some country that crypto laws are not taken seriously by the government, tax on crypto investors are not taken very serious on small investors or even whales that are investing on a low key. I could be a whale buying big amount of Bitcoin secretly and not body will notice and demand for tax. In a country, there are always some lapses in some systems and if you discover those lapses in the tax system, you can skip tax and go off the hook.

You should hire a professional accountant to legally reduce your taxes. This is the only way to pay less tax without committing a serious crime. Sending someone your Bitcoin just to avoid taxes is a form of tax evasion since you will need to explain that expenses especially if the amount is big. This kind of move is questionable on audit by the IRS or same agency on your country.

I’m a tax payer myself due to my business and everything should be documented to avoid evading tax because this is a serious crime. Crypto tax evasion is much easier to track since there’s a blockchain records while your transactions involves CEX.

Taxes are determined based on the income of the wealthy and are usually legally binding if determined by legal action. But there is no tax activity for crypto. Crypto is not legalized by decentralized government. Crypto is good as an alternative. We cannot avoid crypto tax with the help of other users because crypto and other users are two different things.

What do you mean by "collaboration with other individuals"? Do you want to send your crypto to somebody, who lives in a "tax heaven" country with the promise that he will return you the crypto when you need it? Yeah, I can't see what could go wrong here. There's zero chance for you getting scammed. If you really want to get involved into tax evasion schemes, I suggest you to never trust anyone and to do you own research. If you are too afraid about paying capitals gains tax just don't sell big amounts of crypto. Just HODL until the next bull run.

What I can see in the worries of higher crypto taxes is that there's going to be more people that's going to not give the government what they want and crypto can be used as it is, a p2p electronic cash so it's not really that difficult for crypto users to use that as a means of payment although it's a matter of how many people there are in an area that uses cryptocurrency for their transactions. There's also the loophole of P2P trade, you sell your crypto in person and that person that will buy your crypto with their fiat, that way, there's no transaction that can trace you that you did receive some payment, it will look like you gave someone a gift and I think that it's legal so there's no way that you're going to be prosecuted by it, I'm not a lawyer but this is what I do and so far, there's nothing that has happened to me, legally speaking.

The only downside to this is you're going to show your face or something like that, doing P2P trade online is going to be a problem since there's a receipt that you did receive money in that crypto transactions.

I know a lot of rich people who go through different hoops just to pay a little less tax than they normally would. It makes me think why not just pay it? If you’re so rich, just pay it like any other citizen in the country. Well anyway I am sure those people have groups of experts such as lawyers and financial advisors.

I think depending on your country, the taxes with relation to cryptocurrency can be vague. In my country, there is really no definitive law that specifies anything about crypto and taxes for that matter.

So, I think you need to check your country’s laws about taxes and surely you’ll find a loophole in there.

Definitely, I think people should know crypto activities that are taxable and the ones that aren't taxable and from there they can choose means to avoid taxes and still achieve the same results.

I believe tasks are applied to your profits from any transaction and the percentage might differ from country to country. The profits that are taxable might include:

• Selling digital assets for fiat
• funds  generated as payment for  gods and services rendered
• money generated from selling your coins
  
• Gains Accumulated from trading

You may be informed that your capital isn't taxable, you're tasked on your gains from the time of purchase. Also if you receive  funds for your company services, you should write it down as income so that it can be taxed accurately

Well there are other ways to avoid tax

• purchasing crypto with fiat
• transferring funds between wallets
• donating crypto to charity organizations
  
  

Its up to you yo know which patterns you feel like applying to avoid taxes on the digital assets that you own.

https://www.investopedia.com/tech/taxes-and-crypto/

Exactly, for my country, we don't pay taxes or file an income tax return as long as our income don't go higher than or triple if not quadruple the minimum wage which is pretty low but if you're not going to have that problem with your salary, taxation is pretty lax in the country, I have a friend that doesn't pay the taxes but he's got the money to be able to buy a house and some luxury car but there's no taxes that he's talked about. I think that the moment that your bank account is seeing a lot of activities that involves large amounts of money, that's probably the time that the BIR (IRS of my country) will do some probing but so far, it's going smoothly for everyone of us.

To OP, I'm saying this with objective purpose of answering you, no other reason. Yes you can have an assistance but the caveat here is you're going to need a friend that you can really trust through thick and thin because when you do this, you're going to relinquish control of your money at some point in the process and if that friend isn't trustworthy, you're going to get scammed or duped by that friend, always remember that money can make someone do unthinkable things and break friendships, it's just a matter of amount that they're going to betray you.

I can understand a lot of crypto users are avoiding the taxes by all means. Because it is crypto, and we don't want the government to meddle our crypto dealings. But as the government is getting acquainted with crypto market, and so their taxation protocols or regulations, thus, they are slowly implementing how taxation works on this market.

I think we can't totally avoid this from happening. Time is coming for this taxation protocols as they are clearing out what the market is.

you think billgates, zuckerburg, clintons, trump pay 30% instead of 40%
no, they learn* tax law and pay under 5% (use accountants to file their self assessments instead of physically self assessing themselves)
and they pay this lower 5% just as a gratuity to say they pay something. but they could get that number to 0%

its not a fact that there is a progressive tax.. it is however a fact that there is a progressive tax for those that dont even try to learn their tax adjustable's, tax exemptions and tax avoidance's.. so its the average joe that gets affected by just paying the rate they get told rather then work out the most efficient economics of their value to pay the minimums

When you make such comparisons, there is often a misunderstanding. These are not just taxes, but in many countries also include insurance for pensions, health and long-term care insurance, which guarantee a certain level of protection.

For example. In Germany, crypto profits are completely tax-free for a holding period of 1+ year (as far as I know, there is no other country where this is the case). If you sell them within the one year, then the personal tax rate on the profits applies, and this can be between 0% and 45%, with only around 22% of the 45% being pure income tax. The remaining 23% are various obligatory insurances as mentioned above.

It’s possible but then you’d have to take your money out in bits, not necessarily small bits but a decent amount you don’t have to prove you own. And one can use this money for payment that’s needed in fiat. While using the other cryptocurrency on platforms that accept it as a form of payment. And I don’t think it is illegal or is it? Or what if you have someone outside who send the money as fiat often? Could be family who’s giving you money.

That tax percentage is unjust, even if its annual or even if it's quarterly, how much more if its per transaction of what. Although its unlawful for tax evasion, i guess it's more reasonable if its the case. Crypto is just any money, tax someone if someone bought goods and service with it.
But if authorities are that greedy, expect their people will avoid those tax. Lol.

Seeking for means to invade tax is not appropriate because it is a crime to invade tax. However, tax avoidance is an ideal means it bypassing tax legitimately.  In my country using P2P for Bitcoin transactions is an appropriate means of avoiding tax because our country's laws on cryptocurrency have not covered such kind of tax. You would be taxed when you use centralized platforms for crypto transactions. I also know that super-rich people avoid taxes by registering companies in tax havens which they can use for tax avoidance. It is not a bad idea to collaborate to avoid taxes but how can we locate trustworthy people? People might use this chance to scam people.  

It seems they almost charge 50% tax on crypto earnings, which is pretty high. That's the reason why most citizens are discouraged from paying taxes legally. However, if you reside there, there is no way to avoid crypto tax if you have been using a centralised platform. They have to submit a tax report if authorities ask them to. So it's better to comply with the rules where you are living right now. If you want to skip or avoid tax, then you have to use a decentralised platform to handle your assets and deal p2p when you want to cash out. But it's always better to get advice from a tax lawyer. They could advise you on a on a better way to solve the tax issues. 

Seeing this, I felt a little relieved, because the TX here is not that big. Really, I think, that's a very high amount, isn't it? However, we still don't really understand how tax is determined and calculated in each country.

Because indeed, the more the government looks at Bitcoin and crypto as a whole, the more eager they are to make various regulations. the end of which, again, is taxes. For this reason, it cannot be denied that there are many parties who hide or manipulate their assets as much as possible in order to avoid taxes. And is this possible?

Sometimes it's easier to move to another country than fight and use loopholes to get 10% reduction on your 40% tax. When all dust settles you'll still have to pay 30% or 20% which is a lot if you have a few million in profit.
I've been avoiding taxes all my life because I believe that progressive tax is unjust and it's a remnant of communism and socialism that we used to criticize so much. For those who don't know what progressive taxation is, you have to pay higher tax if you make what the government considers too much. This means that you have to be average, or you'll get punished for being too good at what you're doing. If you make $100k a year, or more you won't have to pay the rate everybody else pay, but double that, so the government will often steal more than half of your profit just because it can.
Bottom line, if you live in a country where there's tax higher than 20% regardless of how much you're making, leave and go somewhere else. They can't stop you. It's either this or enjoy being treated like a slave.

 

Maybe he wants to do illegal activities or criminal activities that's why he doesn't want to pay taxes. Taxes helps government build something like new building for school, fixing road and many more. I think I'll wait for a little bit for OP to clarify his intention of not wanting to pay taxes. I can't imagine what will happen to a country where the citizens doesn't pay taxes. I am sure there are people who will do bad things.

If you don’t want to pay taxes, move to one of those tax-free countries you mentioned. But then you will quickly find out that these tax-free countries aren’t as good as the high tax countries. If you try to cheat the IRS or whatever tax agency in your country, they will throw you in a jail cell if you get caught.

You want to enjoy the benefits of a developed country which are low crime rate, good healthcare, public schools etc but you don’t want to pay for it. That’s just another form of stealing imo.

there are many things to look into
such as trusts and foundations (look at how the clintons/gates do things)
things like "personal loans" from your business/trust, to your personal human self
(how politicians get paid from their sidegig businesses they own, out side of the political earnings)
(loans are non taxible. and if you are as a business/trustee the loan provider.. and you are as a person the recipient.. whos gonna complain about the relaxed terms you set for yourself(you wont take yourself to court for non payment))

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those small tax % we in the UK call things like 'stamp duty' which is imposed on the portfolio manager/exchange service to charge per trade.. not much can be done on that.. plus those amounts are small so you just wait for markets to move by 0.22%(in your case) higher than the sell off price you want, to ensure you get after these small charges, the amount you want.

but on capital gains and income tax of the whole sell of assets. there are some tax efficient avenues to consider

Because in our place Bitcoin and Crypto are not legal tender but the assets of the commodity that are allowed to be traded, tax cuts are directly imposed when on the exchange.

The two crypto taxes imposed are Value Added Tax (PPN) and Income Tax (PPH) with a magnitude of 0.11% for Value Added Tax (PPN) and 0.1% for Income Tax (PPH) of each transaction.
I do not want to avoid every tax holes because of the tax from the people for the people.

exactly.

In the US:

- long term 0% capital gains bracket goes up to the $40,000s, so if you make less then whatever that exact number is in a year in total (including every dollar you've made from wages, trading, selling, whatever), and if you sold some bitcoin in profit that you've been holding for more than a year as part of that, then you are still in the 0% tax bracket for long term capital gains and so you don't pay taxes on that profit

- If you have bought low and high, and the price is in between when you sell some bitcoin, you can sell some of the lower bitcoin in profit, and some of the higher bitcoin for a loss, and if the average profit of all of those sales is less than $0 you don't pay any taxes.

- If you have a Roth IRA or Roth 401k that you contribute to and you buy the BTC ETFs with those, those are tax-advantage accounts so you won't owe any taxes on those when you pass the withdrawal age later in life


Those are the only ones I know of.


As an example of not paying taxes, I sold all the shit altcoins I bought in 2021 for huge losses in 2022 on the crash cuz I was like why did I even buy this crap haha. So now I've got tons of tax losses to use to offset my taxes that I owe each year, until these tax losses from 2022 run out. So in 2022 that cancelled out most of my taxes (I paid $353 in taxes that year), its cancelling out all my taxes in 2023 so I owe nothing. And unless Bitcoin is already peaking by end of this year (in which case I'll be selling some bitcoin) I'll again pay no taxes this year. But of course this is all only because I stupidly thought in 2021 altcoins were gonna start gaining traction long term and I ended up taking a 6 figure loss on that assumption just to get out of that crap. But that mistake allows me to not pay taxes for a few years until I've made back in profit all that I lost.

If the amount levied on tax payment is affordable to the people, i don't think they will like to make moves in finding an alternative to wave away the incident of paying for task, the same issues we had when the fiat transaction cost is unbearable that led to the development of a new and alternative means of making payment with bitcoin, so i don't see it a bad idea if we have a means to avoid such but legitimately.

You still owe taxes on this. This would just make you a tax cheat - a criminal.

Hopefully eventually here in the US (and well, same thing in other countries), Congress will pass a law that exempts purchases of a few hundred dollars or less in bitcoin from being taxed to encourage using bitcoin as payments. It has already been proposed a couple times in Congress though I'm sure it'll be a number of years until enough politicians care about Bitcoin to actually pass such a law. Whenever that happens though that would allow bitcoin to be spent on daily purchases without tax implications. This is a necessary requirement before bitcoin payments can start getting popular because until that happens the two options are you track your profit from every single payment or you are a tax cheat criminal. Of course we've got many years before bitcoin payments are even going to be implemented on the merchant side and until there are enough people who want to spend bitcoin to make payments a regular thing. But until we get such a law you can't simply convince someone to accept bitcoin as payment and now owe taxes on that lol. Let's not promote ideas that screw over people's lives and turn them into criminals. We want Bitcoin to HELP people, not hurt them.

Of course , there are professionals who deal in finance who can help you save taxes. Like CAs can help, but you need to hire some guy who has the information related to crypto. This can be a young guy who himself invests in crypto and is aware of all the regulations related to this.

this is where i see alot of people want to EVADE taxes.. but they need to learn how taxes work.. to then learn the tax avoidance loopholes

tax avoidance is using the tax laws toy your benefit and its legal
tax evasion is breaking tax laws which come with repercussions because its not legal

learn the loop holes your countries have in regards to tax, find the legal ways of transferring value tax free

The higher the bitcoin's price, the more topics related to taxes from cryptocurrencies appear.

There is one life hack on how to avoid paying taxes on cryptocurrencies. Until you cash out crypto, taxes can't be demanded from you. Therefore, when you want to make any purchase, use all your charm to convince seller to accept payment in crypto.

People who cooperate with in order to avoid taxes on cryptocurrencies will want their commissions and will have to have a heightened sense of fulfilling agreements, otherwise instead of losses of 45-55% on taxes there will be 100%.

Let's say you managed to do this and you end up with the N-th amount of money in a neighboring country received for crypto. How will you legally transport this money to your country (import limits), and also explain the source of the funds? It seems to me that you would come to the same result if you exchanged crypto for cash immediately and directly in your host country.

Can Tax Obligations be avoided with some help from users living in Tax Free Countries?



As we go deeper and put ourselves in the realm of cryptocurrency world, the issue of taxes remains a pressing problem and concern for investors of countries where they obligate you to pay a percentage of the assets you own. Especially in some regions such as Japan or Belgium, Honestly, what made me think like this is reading about many topics about the new laws and the amount of taxes crypto users are giving to governments including some users in this forum.

Moreover, that's why users are always searching for legitimate or illegitimate ways to reduce their tax obligations. This made me think about collaboration with individuals living in countries where we don't pay any taxes, to offer some insights that might help mitigate tax obligations?

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