Topic: Can we trust bitcoin long term with BUcoin type hard forks menacing around? (Read 912 times)

The fact that we have people like Gavin cheering up for those chinese guys planning on attacking with 100million to cause the hard fork it's clear there is an agenda to damage bitcoin as a viable safe haven

Another thread has been 'frankied' with nonsense.

There isn't a hard fork proposal that builds upon Segwit and increases the block size. There is one by luke-jr, but that actually doesn't increase the block size until a few years in the future.

People wishing to submit BIPs, first should propose their idea or document to the mailing list. After discussion they should email Greg Maxwell . After copy-editing and acceptance, it will be published here.

Either we agree all to one solution ( SegWit + Blocksize increase ?) or Bitcoin stays as it is and becomes stagnant, which could mean it will get surpassed one day by another coin.

Contentious HF can't be a solution!
This would probably end in a crazy cluster fuck.

Either we agree all to one solution ( SegWit + Blocksize increase ?) or Bitcoin stays as it is and becomes stagnant, which could mean it will get surpassed one day by another coin.

If one contentious fork happens then I think it's effectively game over. If a small number of people can do it once, they themselves and others will be emboldened to do it again. If the miners, node operators and businesses and exchanges all go for the same option they like best then it's no longer contentious but I can't see that happening.

This is where the 'experiment' part counts and it's something a lot of people forget about. It's all still being made up as it goes along and anything can still happen.

The majority (Core) wants to make the BU fork.... Makes sence

What you are describing is what I and others call a bilateral hardfork-- where both sides reject the other.

I tried to convince the authors of BIP101 to make their proposal bilateral by requiring the sign bit be set in the version in their blocks (existing nodes require it to be unset). Sadly, the proposals authors were aggressively against this.

The ethereum hardfork was bilateral, probably the only thing they did right--

So hurry the fuck up and get your fork over with, the constant droning of your lies is not worrying or irritating, it's just boring.

No-one's interested, DO YOUR FORK. You've got the hashrate, do your fork.

firstly learn consensus agreement vs bilateral split.

too many times people only speak of the best case scenario of soft and the worse case of hard.(they know why they do it!!)
but effectively the only difference between soft and hard is who gets to vote to activate..

soft.. pool votes nodes dont.
hard.. nodes vote then pools.

but in both soft and hard. both can have consensus, both can be controversial and both can have bilateral

softfork: consensus - >94% pools no banning/ignoring of minority. result: small 5% orphan drama then one chain. minority unsynced and dead
softfork: controversial - >50% pools no banning/ignoring of minority. result: long big% orphan drama then one chain. minority unsynced and dead
softfork: bilateral - intentionally ignoring/banning opposing rules and not including them. result: 2 chains

hardfork: consensus - >94% nodes, then >94% pools no banning/ignoring of minority. result: 5% orphan drama then one chain. minority unsynced / dead
hardfork: controversial - >50% nodes, then >50% pools no banning/ignoring of minority. result: big% orphan drama then one chain. minority unsynced / dead
hardfork: bilateral - intentionally ignoring/banning opposing rules and not including them. result: 2 chains

to make an actual altcoin you need to do more then just make bigger blocks or send an erroneous transaction.. as that just causes rejects/orphans.

you need to actually make the nodes ignore the opposing data and nodes so that they are not sticking to the same data. and instead walk in opposite directions

high agreement = less orphans/rejects
low agreement = more orphans/rejects
but if you have another clause to avoid rejecting or even seeing the opposition. then you are risking creating an altcoin

That's an interesting piece of information, how do we know this?
 

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Let's see if they actually hard fork, they are all talk no walk thus far. As a holder I dont want to see it happen since I know I will lose money, but I want the people that is supporting BU to see it fail and wake up.

The combination of acceptance depth and nodes setting blocksize gates causes a huge orphaning problem every time there is any adjustment in blocksize. If I set my gate with a large minority's (call it 30%) to say 5 blocks and someone mines a block bigger than my gate, then there are immediately two chains. Then for the next 5 blocks the chains diverge and people receive confirmations that they don't realize aren't reliable. Then if other nodes don't shift, or if miners agree on the opposite direction, those 5 blocks are dropped. So suddenly a transaction with 5 confirmations is back in the mempool and we have a backlog for everything left on the smaller chain.
Second, since miners broadcast their excessive blocksize and a split happens any time one is in dispute. A miner with as little as 1% of the mining power can create a block based on the median excessive blocksize and force the network into this fork/orphan situation with ease. Meaning an attacker can leave the entire network in a constant state of forking and confusion with barely any investment. The only defense is for all nodes and miners to simply bend to the will of the majority so there is "consensus" to the largest miners. Meaning the Acceptance Depth is a fake restriction on the blocksize, and powerful miners will have little o no problem kicking smaller nodes off the network by raising the blocksize. The "power" given to smaller miners and nodes actually works against them not for them.
Lastly, because these signaling and forking measures are built into the system. Let's say acceptance depth by 30% gets set to 2Mb for 100,000 blocks. Then another fork happens as soon as there is a 2.1Mb block and now we have two BU chains
The BU system builds he blocksize debate into the core protocol and worsens the already bad consequences. It will make the debate more contentious and solve absolutely nothing. The state that we see these bitter, name calling, political debate over blocksize now, will recur every time someone tries to raise the blocksize. It will be the new norm for bitcoin going forward.
It's a really bad system IMO
(Laos bitcoin magazine has a few articles by Aaron Wirdum that explain it rather well)

Like it or not, the troll-forkists are abusing a legitimate design feature; if the Core team actually did compromise any decentralised sound-money principles that Bitcoin was made with, then having the option to fork away to a faction of that team (or whoever else) that still stuck to decentralised sound-money would be vital.

I like bitcoin because it's an alternative to gold, and it has features that make it better (carrying any amounts of bitcoin and being able to move it around seamlessly makes it insanely underrated as compared to moving gold which is hell)

The only problem I have is the hard fork scenario. We all know that if bitcoin unlimited fork happens, the price is going to tank, so this is not a very promising situation for long term holders.

For those of us that want to hold for 10 years in a cold storage, what can we expect? If the marketcap keeps getting divided into several different teams, it's going to end up an inflationary currency anyway. Yes the limit is 21 million, but if the hardfork happens we'll have 42 million (bitcoin and BUcoins) then imagine that some other idiots decide to create a third chain and fork again... boom, here you have it, your long term investment goes to shit (look at ETH/ETH)

I just hope that Core remains the main blockchain and the rest end up as altcoins. We need to keep 80% of cryptomarketcap, otherwise it would be bad news for anyone wanting to hold long term.