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Topic: Capacity increases for the Bitcoin system (Read 802 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 25, 2015, 11:40:58 AM
#9

This matter has not been settled at all. Core has made its position rather clear, it is diverting from the original vision of Satoshi. If Core got its way they would block the stream of transactions in favor of off chain solutions. There is presently massive opposition to this move by Core and I suspect that we will see an industry or user led fork rectifying this situation soon.

This is a test of the governance mechanism within Bitcoin. Core should not decide on the future of Bitcoin for all of us. Bitcoin should not rely on a centralized authority in the form of Core to make decisions for us, the market or the economic majority should rule Bitcoin instead, this is best reflected through having multiple alternative implementations to choose from. Since an election with only one choice would be the equivalent to totalitarianism after all. Fortunately we do now have three alternative implementations which will increase the blocksize. BitcoinXT, Btcd and Bitcoin Unlimited.
There is no governance mechanism, everyone is free to start their own implementations like BitcoinXT and then turn it into the official Bitcoin with enough support, but people don't care about it and that's why it's got no nodes running, people is free run nodes for that or not.
What you are describing is the governance mechanism of Bitcoin, that you do not recognize this does not change the fact that there is a governance mechanism in Bitcoin, after all important decisions do still need to be made, and I would not consider all decision making power being concentrated in Core to be a good governance model.

You are arguing a straw man in regards to BitcoinXT, most people in the developed world will still be able to run full nodes in their homes under the schedule outlined in BIP101. Furthermore in regards to the vision of Satoshi, he was a greater big blocks proponent compared to most of us.
Im from the developed world and running a node is a pain in the ass already. Luckily the new version will make it boot faster. In any case, the number of nodes now is already low enough, you don't want to worsen it. More nodes run by different people = more decentralized Bitcoin, I don't need to read a million Satoshi quotes to realize this fact.
You are oversimplifying this issue, node count is not the only important metric in Bitcoin, node count is also effected by adoption and allowing the blocks to fill up rendering transactions unreliable and much more expensive will not be good for adoption over the long run.

I also question the idea of people running full nodes for the banks, payment processors and other large institutions when they can not effectively use Bitcoin themselves because they will have been priced out of the network by these larger institutions that normal people can not compete with. I do not believe we would even reach that point in the first place however since for these large institutions to use Bitcoin there will need to be mass adoption first otherwise it would make more sense for them to build their own systems or just make use of a cheaper, faster and better alternatives that will exist. Essentially what I am saying is that Bitcoin can not become a world reserve currency or a global settlement network without mass adoption from the people first, and that this can not happen with a limited blocksize, since Bitcoin will simply just be out competed, this is basic economics.

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
The full quote sounds like he is saying the opposite
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale. Bitcoin and BitDNS can be used separately. Users shouldn't have to download all of both to use one or the other. BitDNS users may not want to download everything the next several unrelated networks decide to pile in either.

The networks need to have separate fates. BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
He is basically saying that putting everything into the blockchain doesn't scale.. so we need LN. You dont need to be very smart to know that without LN and by raising block size only we will never scale to global levels doing it all on the blockchain, not without node farms which is a no-no.
He is not saying this at all and you are cherry picking this statement in order to falsely imply that Satoshi did not support big blocks when clearly he does. I even agree with his statement here, we can not put all data into the Bitcoin blockchain, this is why we have projects like SJCX and Maidsafe. This is very different compared to blocking the stream of transactions in Bitcoin however because some people believe that Bitcoin is not money and have a radically different vision for Bitcoin. Satoshi did however think that Bitcoin is money and that therefore transactions should be cheap, at least for the first few decades at least.

Bitcoin can scale, this false meme that Bitcoin can not scale is perpetuated by engineers who seem to be stuck in the nirvana fallacy that Bitcoin can not scale because it does not scale efficiently, this is wrong and even a modest blocksize increase can make a huge difference in terms of adoption and the throughput of the Bitcoin blockchain.

Do not be lead astray by the people attempting to convince us that Bitcoin is broken and that they need to fix it. Bitcoin works just fine and we should continue with this experiment and let it run its course.

Quote from: Konrad S Graf
Disagreements appear rooted more in differing opinions on economics, a specialized field entirely distinct from engineering, programming, and network design.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The block size limit has for the most part not ever been, and should not now be, used to determine the actual size of average blocks under normal network operating conditions. Real average block size ought to emerge from factors of supply and demand for what I will term “transaction-inclusion services.” Beginning to use the protocol block size limit to restrict the provision of transaction-inclusion services would be a radical change to Bitcoin. The burden of proof is therefore on persons advocating using the protocol limit in this novel way.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The idea of using the limit in this new way—not the idea of raising it now by some degree to keep it from beginning to interfere with normal operations—is what constitutes an attempt to change something important about the Bitcoin protocol. And there rests the burden of proof.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
Transaction-fee levels are not in any general need of being artificially pushed upward. A 130-year transition phase was planned into Bitcoin during which the full transition from block reward revenue to transaction-fee revenue was to take place.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The protocol block size limit was added as a temporary anti-spam measure, not a technocratic market-manipulation measure.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1014
December 25, 2015, 10:26:39 AM
#8

This matter has not been settled at all. Core has made its position rather clear, it is diverting from the original vision of Satoshi. If Core got its way they would block the stream of transactions in favor of off chain solutions. There is presently massive opposition to this move by Core and I suspect that we will see an industry or user led fork rectifying this situation soon.

This is a test of the governance mechanism within Bitcoin. Core should not decide on the future of Bitcoin for all of us. Bitcoin should not rely on a centralized authority in the form of Core to make decisions for us, the market or the economic majority should rule Bitcoin instead, this is best reflected through having multiple alternative implementations to choose from. Since an election with only one choice would be the equivalent to totalitarianism after all. Fortunately we do now have three alternative implementations which will increase the blocksize. BitcoinXT, Btcd and Bitcoin Unlimited.


There is no governance mechanism, everyone is free to start their own implementations like BitcoinXT and then turn it into the official Bitcoin with enough support, but people don't care about it and that's why it's got no nodes running, people is free run nodes for that or not.


You are arguing a straw man in regards to BitcoinXT, most people in the developed world will still be able to run full nodes in their homes under the schedule outlined in BIP101. Furthermore in regards to the vision of Satoshi, he was a greater big blocks proponent compared to most of us.

Im from the developed world and running a node is a pain in the ass already. Luckily the new version will make it boot faster. In any case, the number of nodes now is already low enough, you don't want to worsen it. More nodes run by different people = more decentralized Bitcoin, I don't need to read a million Satoshi quotes to realize this fact.

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.


The full quote sounds like he is saying the opposite


Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
   Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale. Bitcoin and BitDNS can be used separately. Users shouldn't have to download all of both to use one or the other. BitDNS users may not want to download everything the next several unrelated networks decide to pile in either.

    The networks need to have separate fates. BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.28917

He is basically saying that putting everything into the blockchain doesn't scale.. so we need LN. You dont need to be very smart to know that without LN and by raising block size only we will never scale to global levels doing it all on the blockchain, not without node farms which is a no-no.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 25, 2015, 10:06:33 AM
#7
Jeff Garzik has also recently very clearly stated why the path that Core is presently taking is the wrong path for Bitcoin:

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
An Economic Change Event is a period of market chaos, where large changes to prices and sets of economic actors occurs over a short time period. A Fee Event is a notable Economic Change Event, where a realistic projection forsees higher fee/KB on average, pricing some economic actors (bitcoin projects and businesses) out of the system.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The game theory bidding behavior is different for a mostly-empty resource versus a usually-full resource.  Prices are different.  Profitable business models are different.  Users (the set of economic actors on the network) are different.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Failure to increase block size is not obviously-conservative, it is a conscious choice, electing for one economic state and set of actors and prices over another. Choosing Future Fee Market over Today's Fee Market. It is rational to reason that maintaining TFM is more conservative than enduring an Economic Change Event from TFM to FFM. It is rational to reason that maintaining similar prices and economic actors is less disruptive. Failure to increase block size will lead to a Fee Event sooner rather than later. Failure to plan ahead for a Fee Event will lead to greater market chaos and User pain.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
This is an extreme moral hazard: A few Bitcoin Core committers can veto increase and thereby reshape bitcoin economics, price some businesses out of the system. It is less of a moral hazard to keep the current economics [by raising block size] and not exercise such power.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The current trajectory of no-block-size-increase can lead to short time market chaos, actor chaos, businesses no longer viable. In a $6.6B economy, it is criminal to let the Service undergo an Economic Change event without warning users loudly, months in advance:  "Dear users, ECE has accelerated potential due to developers preferring a transition from TFM to FFM."
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Further, wallet software User experience is very, very poor in a hyper-competitive fee market.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Almost all bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners have stated they want a block size increase.  See the many media articles, BIP 101 letter, and wiki.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
It is a valid and rational economic choice to subsidize the system with lower fees in the beginning. Many miners, for example, openly state they prefer long term system growth over maximizing tiny amounts of current day income. Vetoing a block size increase has the effect of eliminating that economic choice as an option.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Without exaggeration, I have never seen this much disconnect between user wishes and dev outcomes in 20+ years of open source.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Higher Service prices can negatively impact system security. Bitcoin depends on a virtuous cycle of users boosting and maintaining bitcoin's network effect, incentivizing miners, increasing security. Higher prices that reduce bitcoin's user count and network effect can have the opposite impact.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
We only know for certain that blocks-mostly-not-full works. We do not know that changing to blocks-mostly-full works. Changing to a new economic system includes boatloads of risk.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The worst possible outcome is letting the ecosystem randomly drift into the first Fee Event without openly stating the new economic policy choices and consequences. The simple fact is *inaction* on this supply-limited resource, block size, will change bitcoin to a new economic shape and with different economic actors, selecting some and not others. It is better to kick the can and gather crucial field data, because next-step (FFM) is very much not fleshed out.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011973.html
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 25, 2015, 10:00:19 AM
#6
Capacity increases FAQ was posted a few hours ago:

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq
Hopefully by April next year, in time for the halving, this matter is completely settled.
This matter has not been settled at all. Core has made its position rather clear, it is diverting from the original vision of Satoshi. If Core got its way they would block the stream of transactions in favor of off chain solutions. There is presently massive opposition to this move by Core and I suspect that we will see an industry or user led fork rectifying this situation soon.

This is a test of the governance mechanism within Bitcoin. Core should not decide on the future of Bitcoin for all of us. Bitcoin should not rely on a centralized authority in the form of Core to make decisions for us, the market or the economic majority should rule Bitcoin instead, this is best reflected through having multiple alternative implementations to choose from. Since an election with only one choice would be the equivalent to totalitarianism after all. Fortunately we do now have three alternative implementations which will increase the blocksize. BitcoinXT, Btcd and Bitcoin Unlimited.

Jeff Garzik recently wrote an article describing the dire situation we are in, I do at least have confidence that this situation will resolve itself because of the incentive structure of Bitcoin and the ability to hard fork which ensures the continued freedom of the protocol.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011973.html
Pretty sure centralized nodes run by datacenters, which is what BitcoinXT etc will deliver, wasn't part of the original Satoshi vision.
You are arguing a straw man in regards to BitcoinXT, most people in the developed world will still be able to run full nodes in their homes under the schedule outlined in BIP101. Furthermore in regards to the vision of Satoshi, he was a greater big blocks proponent compared to most of us.

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The eventual solution will be to not care how big it gets.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
But for now, while it’s still small, it’s nice to keep it small so new users can get going faster. When I eventually implement client-only mode, that won’t matter much anymore.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The threshold can easily be changed in the future.  We can decide to increase it when the time comes.  It's a good idea to keep it lower as a circuit breaker and increase it as needed.  If we hit the threshold now, it would almost certainly be some kind of flood and not actual use.  Keeping the threshold lower would help limit the amount of wasted disk space in that event.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1006
December 25, 2015, 09:44:30 AM
#5
Capacity increases FAQ was posted a few hours ago:

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq
Hopefully by April next year, in time for the halving, this matter is completely settled.
This matter has not been settled at all. Core has made its position rather clear, it is diverting from the original vision of Satoshi. If Core got its way they would block the stream of transactions in favor of off chain solutions. There is presently massive opposition to this move by Core and I suspect that we will see an industry or user led fork rectifying this situation soon.

This is a test of the governance mechanism within Bitcoin. Core should not decide on the future of Bitcoin for all of us. Bitcoin should not rely on a centralized authority in the form of Core to make decisions for us, the market or the economic majority should rule Bitcoin instead, this is best reflected through having multiple alternative implementations to choose from. Since an election with only one choice would be the equivalent to totalitarianism after all. Fortunately we do now have three alternative implementations which will increase the blocksize. BitcoinXT, Btcd and Bitcoin Unlimited.

Jeff Garzik recently wrote an article describing the dire situation we are in, I do at least have confidence that this situation will resolve itself because of the incentive structure of Bitcoin and the ability to hard fork which ensures the continued freedom of the protocol.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011973.html

Pretty sure centralized nodes run by datacenters, which is what BitcoinXT etc will deliver, wasn't part of the original Satoshi vision.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 25, 2015, 09:36:49 AM
#4
Capacity increases FAQ was posted a few hours ago:

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq
Hopefully by April next year, in time for the halving, this matter is completely settled.
This matter has not been settled at all. Core has made its position rather clear, it is diverting from the original vision of Satoshi. If Core got its way they would block the stream of transactions in favor of off chain solutions. There is presently massive opposition to this move by Core and I suspect that we will see an industry or user led fork rectifying this situation soon.

This is a test of the governance mechanism within Bitcoin. Core should not decide on the future of Bitcoin for all of us. Bitcoin should not rely on a centralized authority in the form of Core to make decisions for us, the market or the economic majority should rule Bitcoin instead, this is best reflected through having multiple alternative implementations to choose from. Since an election with only one choice would be the equivalent to totalitarianism after all. Fortunately we do now have three alternative implementations which will increase the blocksize. BitcoinXT, Btcd and Bitcoin Unlimited.

Jeff Garzik recently wrote an article describing the dire situation we are in, I do at least have confidence that this situation will resolve itself because of the incentive structure of Bitcoin and the ability to hard fork which ensures the continued freedom of the protocol.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011973.html
legendary
Activity: 1848
Merit: 1009
Next-Gen Trade Racing Metaverse
December 25, 2015, 12:20:11 AM
#3
Capacity increases FAQ was posted a few hours ago:

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq

Hopefully by April next year, in time for the halving, this matter is completely settled.
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
December 23, 2015, 03:22:16 AM
#2
Capacity increases FAQ was posted a few hours ago:

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
December 21, 2015, 07:48:09 PM
#1
Details: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html

Quote from: Gregory Maxwell
TL;DR:  I propose we work immediately towards the segwit 4MB block soft-fork which increases capacity and scalability, and recent speedups and incoming relay improvements make segwit a reasonable risk. BIP9 and segwit will also make further improvements easier and faster to deploy. We’ll continue to set the stage for non-bandwidth-increase-based scaling, while building additional tools that would make bandwidth increases safer long term. Further work will prepare Bitcoin for further increases, which will become possible when justified, while also providing the groundwork to make them justifiable.

Support: https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases
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