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Topic: Cartel manipulating mining difficulty? - page 2. (Read 1550 times)

legendary
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August 24, 2017, 08:23:25 AM
#31
Indeed, miners are mining for profits, but that's what I've been always telling at every corner, so what's your point?

That if they're mining for profit, it means they're not intentionally adjusting the difficulty as your OP alludes to.  It's just a natural consequence of them chasing the profit.  That means there's a distinct possibility it isn't manipulation at all

Oh, wait, I must be missing something here

So you say that it is not miners who created Bitcoin Cash which would allow them to earn from switching their hashpower from one coin to the other as soon as the mining difficulty readjusts. I understand (well, somewhat, though I certainly don't agree with that point) when people doubt that it is in fact miners who are spamming the network to fill up the mempool, thus prompting users to pay higher fees. After all, it is not miners who make users pay higher fees, they do it entirely on their own, right? But what about Bitcoin Cash?
legendary
Activity: 3948
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Leave no FUD unchallenged
August 24, 2017, 04:52:13 AM
#30
I can see how conspiracies and the possibilities of potentially shady motives might seem more stimulating than boring market stuff, though.  Keep up the entertaining drama and watching from the sidelines.  If it keeps you distracted from having any real influence, it can only be a good thing

Which conspiracy are you talking about?

Well, let's see... the clue might be in the title of your thread.  When people speculate over "who shot JFK", "were the moon landings faked" or "who did 9/11", it tends to involve conspiracy.  As is the case when you speculate over the existence of a mining cartel manipulating difficulty.


Would creation of Bitcoin Cash count as one, a conspiracy of sorts?

In your head, evidently.  In mine, not so much.  That comes down to perspective, I'm afraid.  Believe as you want.


Indeed, miners are mining for profits, but that's what I've been always telling at every corner, so what's your point?

That if they're mining for profit, it means they're not intentionally adjusting the difficulty as your OP alludes to.  It's just a natural consequence of them chasing the profit.  That means there's a distinct possibility it isn't manipulation at all.


and I'm just thinking (you can read that as speculating, if you please) to what effect this kind of manipulation could potentially lead to in the long term (if it is set to continue). As to me, that would most likely lead to people losing their faith and trust in Bitcoin.

If there was somehow a way to force the miners into mining what someone thought was best, that would be far more disconcerting than just letting them get on with it and do what they want.  My faith and trust in Bitcoin stems from the fact that everyone has just enough individual control that no one is in control overall.  That includes any miners following any chain they please at any time they please.  Bitcoin works best when everyone does whatever the hell they want.
legendary
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August 24, 2017, 04:31:13 AM
#29
The BCash mining difficulty was adjusted (increased) two days ago, so miners expectedly and quite naturally stopped mining this coin and moved their hashpower to mining regular Bitcoin. Then the mining difficulty got conveniently readjusted again (now decreased), and miners started mining BCash all over again. I'm utterly curious where you are, all the criticasters, who had been ridiculing this idea at first. Why did you put your tongue in your ass now?

We'll see if the hash rate floods back to BCH now. It looks like you were right. What do you think the long term effects of this manipulation will be?

In fact, it looks like we are already seeing the effects of this manipulation

The price of Litecoin surged over 15% within the last 24 hours (now it retracted a little but is still well over 50 dollars per coin). This is an obvious and immediate effect of people losing trust in Bitcoin (in any Bitcoin, for that matter). If this kind of manipulation is set to continue or even become worse, people will be leaving Bitcoin in favor of other coins. So don't get surprised if you wake up one morning and see the Litecoin price over 100 dollars per piece
I don't quite agree with you. The last 24 hours bitcoin price is constantly going up. Perhaps it was triggered by the growth of the other crypto currency. Actually all crypto currencies are still dependent on bitcoin and therefore I do not believe that it ever will be a bias towards altcoins.

What do you disagree with specifically?

You don't believe that Litecoin surged during the last 24 hours while it was pretty stagnant (in dollar terms) for the last month or so? If you don't believe me, Google is your friend. Anyway, this is a matter which is still in progress, and I'm just thinking (you can read that as speculating, if you please) what effect this kind of manipulation could potentially lead to in the long term (if it is set to continue). As to me, that would most likely lead to people losing their faith and trust in Bitcoin. But you may choose to disagree, of course
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 255
August 24, 2017, 04:25:46 AM
#28
The BCash mining difficulty was adjusted (increased) two days ago, so miners expectedly and quite naturally stopped mining this coin and moved their hashpower to mining regular Bitcoin. Then the mining difficulty got conveniently readjusted again (now decreased), and miners started mining BCash all over again. I'm utterly curious where you are, all the criticasters, who had been ridiculing this idea at first. Why did you put your tongue in your ass now?

We'll see if the hash rate floods back to BCH now. It looks like you were right. What do you think the long term effects of this manipulation will be?

In fact, it looks like we are already seeing the effects of this manipulation

The price of Litecoin surged over 15% within the last 24 hours (now it retracted a little but is still well over 50 dollars per coin). This is an obvious and immediate effect of people losing trust in Bitcoin (in any Bitcoin, for that matter). If this kind of manipulation is set to continue or even become worse, people will be leaving Bitcoin in favor of other coins. So don't get surprised if you wake up one morning and see the Litecoin price over 100 dollars per piece
I don't quite agree with you. The last 24 hours bitcoin price is constantly going up. Perhaps it was triggered by the growth of the other crypto currency. Actually all crypto currencies are still dependent on bitcoin and therefore I do not believe that it ever will be a bias towards altcoins.
legendary
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August 24, 2017, 04:24:06 AM
#27
I can see how conspiracies and the possibilities of potentially shady motives might seem more stimulating than boring market stuff, though.  Keep up the entertaining drama and watching from the sidelines.  If it keeps you distracted from having any real influence, it can only be a good thing

Which conspiracy are you talking about?

Would creation of Bitcoin Cash count as one, a conspiracy of sorts? Indeed, miners are mining for profits, but that's what I've been always telling at every corner, so what's your point? I've always been telling as well that we should look at what miners (especially those miners who have a "controlling stake" in Bitcoin mining) do, not what they say or pretend to do. As an aside, I find it massively disingenuous that you first say that "it is conceivable you might interpret collusion", and then proceed as if I actually claimed conspiracy here. We see the effect and result, that's what counts in the end, and that's what I'm mostly talking about. The conspiracy part (if any) is there for fun only ("the cartel")
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
August 24, 2017, 04:16:37 AM
#26
Now rinse and repeat part seems to be coming along:



The BCash mining difficulty was adjusted (increased) two days ago, so miners expectedly and quite naturally stopped mining this coin and moved their hashpower to mining regular Bitcoin. Then the mining difficulty got conveniently readjusted again (now decreased), and miners started mining BCash all over again. I'm utterly curious where you are, all the criticasters, who had been ridiculing this idea at first. Why did you put your tongue in your ass now?

If one is to believe the narrative, then it's conceivable you might interpret collusion.  But in the interests of balance (and common sense), would the more rational conclusion not be that it was simply a matter of the miners naturally following whatever was most profitable at any given time?  Or even playing the long-term angle and accumulating some block rewards now for something they calculate might increase in value in future?



Sure, there will probably be some bumps in the road because of this, but it's all part of demand and price discovery in a free and open market.  

I can see how conspiracies and the possibilities of potentially shady motives might seem more stimulating than boring market stuff, though.  Keep up the entertaining drama and watching from the sidelines.  If it keeps you distracted from having any real influence, it can only be a good thing.   Roll Eyes

legendary
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Merit: 1280
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August 24, 2017, 04:12:53 AM
#25
The BCash mining difficulty was adjusted (increased) two days ago, so miners expectedly and quite naturally stopped mining this coin and moved their hashpower to mining regular Bitcoin. Then the mining difficulty got conveniently readjusted again (now decreased), and miners started mining BCash all over again. I'm utterly curious where you are, all the criticasters, who had been ridiculing this idea at first. Why did you put your tongue in your ass now?

We'll see if the hash rate floods back to BCH now. It looks like you were right. What do you think the long term effects of this manipulation will be?

In fact, it looks like we are already seeing the effects of this manipulation

The price of Litecoin surged over 15% within the last 24 hours (now it retracted a little but is still well over 50 dollars per coin). This is an obvious and immediate effect of people losing trust in Bitcoin (in any Bitcoin, for that matter). If this kind of manipulation is set to continue or even become worse, people will be leaving Bitcoin in favor of other coins. So don't get surprised if you wake up one morning and see the Litecoin price over 100 dollars per piece
hero member
Activity: 697
Merit: 520
August 24, 2017, 03:15:05 AM
#24
The BCash mining difficulty was adjusted (increased) two days ago, so miners expectedly and quite naturally stopped mining this coin and moved their hashpower to mining regular Bitcoin. Then the mining difficulty got conveniently readjusted again (now decreased), and miners started mining BCash all over again. I'm utterly curious where you are, all the criticasters, who had been ridiculing this idea at first. Why did you put your tongue in your ass now?

We'll see if the hash rate floods back to BCH now. It looks like you were right. What do you think the long term effects of this manipulation will be?

I suppose it keeps BCH viable (as long as there is enough price support on exchanges, and in theory, Bitmain and Roger Ver could handle that). It also increases network congestion on the BTC chain, since overall hash rate is dropping (increasing average block generation time). Combined with spam attacks on the BTC chain, this could help the BCH narrative.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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August 24, 2017, 03:00:34 AM
#23
Now rinse and repeat part seems to be coming along:



The BCash mining difficulty was adjusted (increased) two days ago, so miners expectedly and quite naturally stopped mining this coin and moved their hashpower to mining regular Bitcoin. Then the mining difficulty got conveniently readjusted again (now decreased), and miners started mining BCash all over again. And I'm utterly curious where you are, all the criticasters, who had been ridiculing this idea at first. Why did you put your tongue in your ass now?
legendary
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August 22, 2017, 09:23:34 AM
#22
Things are getting hotter with every hour passing



It seems like BCash hashrate is going to surpass the hashrate of regular Bitcoin with only 7 hours remaining till the difficulty adjustment. I don't know what's going to happen when there are more miners (hash power) mining Bitcoin Cash than the regular Bitcoin, but we may well be on the verge of a full scale war between the coins. Let's call it the attack of the clones (even if there is only one clone pretending to be a genuine Bitcoin)
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 2162
August 22, 2017, 09:14:03 AM
#21
This works well if mining Bcash is on the same scale of profitability as Bitcoin, which may or may not be the case, if we consider all the money Bitmain spent on pumping in as part of the spendings. Bitmain has to genuinely convince some critical mass of investors that Bcash is worth something, via both media and the market. If the price is high only because Ver and Jihan are buying it from their own pocket, than mining it for them isn't actually more profitable than mining Bitcoin. Also, there's a risk that people haven't sold their airdrop yet will just dump Bcash, I saw some people post here saying they haven't dumped yet because they are worried about their privacy. I guess we need a Bcash mixer.
newbie
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
August 22, 2017, 08:40:20 AM
#20
thanks for sharing that, i had wondered something similar but did not have enough knowledge to even know were to start to research
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 11
August 22, 2017, 03:20:56 AM
#19
All this just proves that two major coins coexisting with the same, dedicated ASICS where hundreds of millions have been invested are a recipe for trouble. This situation is not stable in the long term, but I have no idea of how it will all end.
legendary
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August 22, 2017, 02:43:37 AM
#18
Some dudes above asked for an absolute Bitcoin vs Bitcoin Cash hashrate chart. Here it is:



I'm also utterly curious if there is still anyone who is gonna claim that "this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash". As the saying goes, seeing is believing, so I wanna hear from them, what they are gonna say now. It kinda looks like we are not very far from Bitcoin Cash hashrate taking over Bitcoin's, but this is certainly not what the cartel is looking for. They are looking for profits, as always, and today that means manipulating mining difficulty via moving hashrate around. Get ready for more to come!
legendary
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August 21, 2017, 04:49:58 AM
#17
Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

I'd rather say that it is you who is a loudmouth

At first you claim that Jihan has zero, even ZERO control over Bitmain and AntPool and in the next sentence you proceed to claim that he is a co-founder. As I understand it, it doesn't go well together, i.e. being one of the founders and having no control over what you co-founded. Further, Bitmain itself can't mine anything since they are a company producing mining equipment, not using it to mine bitcoins
Co-Founders have no company control. Clearly you have never co-founded any companies. Bitmain has investors and the investors run the show. Go back to school...

That's hilarious

I guess you may want to tell us more about Bitmain investors. Who are they, the top members of the CPC? Regarding co-founding and control, Bill Gates was one of Microsoft founders (along with Paul Allen), and Microsoft is a public company at that (and has been that since 1981). Now try to tell anyone that Gates has (had) no control over Microsoft (when he was there). But ultimately this is irrelevant since this topic is not about Jihan or any other single individual. So if you have nothing to say on topic, stick your tongue in your ass and shut the fuck up

you are Legendary member and you do not understand the network??? naybe you should realise bitcoin/ Bitcoin Network is owned by its miner u should stop complaining

You may learn to write first
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
August 21, 2017, 04:40:23 AM
#16
Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

I'd rather say that it is you who is a loudmouth

At first you claim that Jihan has zero, even ZERO control over Bitmain and AntPool and in the next sentence you proceed to claim that he is a co-founder. As I understand it, it doesn't go well together, i.e. being one of the founders and having no control over what you co-founded. Further, Bitmain itself can't mine anything since they are a company producing mining equipment, not using it to mine bitcoins
Co-Founders have no company control. Clearly you have never co-founded any companies. Bitmain has investors and the investors run the show. Go back to school...
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
August 21, 2017, 04:39:23 AM
#15
this is relative hashrate chart not hashrate chart.
for example this means something like this:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 98.03%
bcc hashrate: 100 : 1.96%

then after a week:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 83.33%
bcc hashrate: 1000 : 16.66%

arbitrary numbers but that is practically what the chart shows

You seem to miss the whole idea behind these numbers

Which I mentioned in my post but which you kinda ignored. These are not arbitrary numbers since they show the distribution of available hash power between the two coins, i.e. they should necessarily amount to 100% in total. In this case, they reveal that more and more miners stop mining Bitcoin (i.e. take some part of their hashrate from mining Bitcoin) and start mining Bitcoin Cash (i.e. move more their hashing power to this coin), you can easily see that at the Speed chart. But these are the same miners and the same hash power which is just being redistributed, so the absolute value of it is irrelevant (if that was your point)

but this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash.

So you choose to ignore the facts, okay then
you are Legendary member and you do not understand the network??? naybe you should realise bitcoin/ Bitcoin Network is owned by its miner u should stop complaining
legendary
Activity: 3514
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August 21, 2017, 04:36:36 AM
#14
Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

I'd rather say that it is you who is a loudmouth

At first you claim that Jihan has zero, even ZERO control over Bitmain as well as AntPool, and right in the next sentence you proceed to claim that he is a co-founder. As I understand it, you can't have it both ways, i.e. to be one of the founders and have no control over what you co-founded. Further, Bitmain itself can't mine anything since they are a company producing mining equipment, not using it to mine bitcoins on their own
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
August 21, 2017, 04:28:09 AM
#13
Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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August 21, 2017, 04:15:05 AM
#12
this is relative hashrate chart not hashrate chart.
for example this means something like this:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 98.03%
bcc hashrate: 100 : 1.96%

then after a week:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 83.33%
bcc hashrate: 1000 : 16.66%

arbitrary numbers but that is practically what the chart shows

You seem to miss the whole idea behind these numbers

Which I mentioned in my post but which you kinda ignored. These are not arbitrary numbers since they show the distribution of available hash power between the two coins, i.e. they should necessarily amount to 100% in total. In this case, they reveal that more and more miners stop mining Bitcoin (i.e. take some part of their hashrate from mining Bitcoin) and start mining Bitcoin Cash (i.e. move more their hashing power to this coin), you can easily see that at the Speed chart. But these are the same miners and the same hash power which is just being redistributed, so the absolute value of it is irrelevant (if that was your point)

but this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash.

So you choose to ignore the facts, okay then
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