Topic: Casascius hologram issue (Read 2742 times)

This coin is now in the hands of someone with actual brains and access to a high powered Laica microscope that can capture pretty images.  I have looked at the holo under power and it is interesting!  Here is the tentative plan:
 
- We will be imagine the holo monthly for the next 3-6 months to ascertain if the marks are growing in size\population or if they are static.
- Once we have observed the marks over time we are going to peel it and image the marks under the holo as best we can.
- We will import the private key to confirm the coin is authentic(it looks real to me).

At some point I expect to be posting high quality images, I can tell you the images I have seen are very good, under power you can see that the marks look exactly like the letters "ONE BITCOIN" on the holo, as if whatever process made the one bitcoin letters may have been responsible for the marks we see.  I can say at this point the marks are under the surface of the hologram.

I'll update as I learn more and when I get images, they are currently in a file format not suitable for posting.

I agree it boils down to two categories of factors (with numerous variables):

1. The assembly process

2. the holograms themselves were slightly made different in production in terms of quality consistency etc.

If I had to guess it sounds more like an aging process of the coins as I remember opening up my roll when I initially got them and never saw one of those dots until many months later.

This is my own personal experience with the coins I am sharing and am in no way claiming to be an expert at all. All I can do is speak from my experience with Mike's coins as well as my experience with dealing with holograms on my own coins that are months and years old which have not had that issue.

Obviously something is different, what that is to me is a mystery thus far.

I covered the Silvers above by acknowledging that they appear to have marked a change in process of manufacture. However, manual handling of the Priv key AND the holo,  by multiple persons, appears NOT to have changed (Mike can clarify?). So even if the Silver coins are treated and handled with utmost care AND with gloves, the keys and holos were not, ergo the perfect entry point for chemicals.
If two persons body grease/sweat mix it can create additional chemicals which can have a noticeable impact. This is well known.

In light of the video itself, I believe there's now compelling evidence indicating that the manual elements of production are a very likely contender for being the cause of the issues currently being faced by Coin owners.

Again, I think Mike is probably the one best placed to highlight production issues of the time.

What  was the humidity in the room like?
Room Temperature?
Were people hot/warm/cold while working?
Had the room been recently decorated?
Had anyone had pizza that day, afternoon, evening? (you get the idea)


There are so many variables possible during production that, if you have satisfied yourselves that the slabs absolutely cannot be the issue, then by axiom the creation process MUST play a more significant part in the investigation.

Currently, all evidence points to production as the weak point and most likely cause of dots and spotting. It may be the Holos themselves at the point of THEIR manufacture.
Am I correct in thinking that the paper used for priv keys was removed from the list of culprits?
Viz

If this was the case for his 2013 silver coins then there would be noticeable finger prints on the coins which there werent.

When dealing with silver coins it is difficult to apply the entire process without adding finger prints to the silver coins without using gloves.

Brass not so much (even though I tend to use gloves for those as well).

It would seem the finger print issue is not the cause of it as it would be obviously visible on the surface of his silver coins from 2013.

When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.

When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.

PVC contamination could be a possibility, here's an NGC discussion on the topic: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1445/coin-holders-contain-PVC/

I could see it being heat related or maybe how Mike held the coins in position during the melting process.  We'd need more info on that process and the equipment used.

So about your coin...  I expect the price will be marked down dramatically because of all the imperfections in the hologram, right dazed?

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

If you look at the pics, you can see a similar dot pattern on the actual slab in the clear spots...  I'm wondering if this is some sort of reaction, or possibly residue from the slab getting on the coin hologram over time.  Maybe another downside to having coins graded?

Anyone want to do some testing on what caused this?  It's a different issue than the casascius spotting but a hologram integrity issue nonetheless.  This a pic prior to redemption.  I peeled halfway and the private key was unaffected.

Pre-redemption:



Post-redemption:

2BTC is fair if both sides are happy. Price is also close to market listings for type and grade. Ref ErikvanBreen's 2 @ 2.2BTC/ea... "spotless" tho

Any takers on a MS69 "spotted" goldie for 3BTC?  

Yep, live and learn.  I'm content selling it for 2BTC so it looks like we are both happy.

Yep, live and learn.  I'm content selling it for 2BTC so it looks like we are both happy.

Just to put this in the public.  I offered to buy this coin for 2BTC but am fine if he decides to try and get more from an auction.  I guaranteed 2BTC for the coin no matter how that auction plays out. 

 
I'll buy it for 2BTC.  Who do you want to use for escrow?  I'll pay extra for restricted delivery via USPS in this case.

Sure, selling for 2BTC....with auction TBD.....escrow with reputable forum member and free shipping within US....worldwide shipping paid for by buyer based on actual cost.

So you are selling this for 2BTC?

That would be my concern too (as a buyer).  I'm not concerned about the private key today....but 10 years from now....who knows.

Also, I don't think it'll go for 2BTC....so I'll make that the BIN.  I'll think about value I'd want to keep it at...then start it at that price.

Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC

1.25BTC BIN 

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

What is PVC residue?
PVC residue is a surface contaminant that may be caused by storing a coin in a soft, pliable vinyl flip. The amount of time a coin needs to reside in a vinyl flip before the PVC film develops will vary significantly, depending on temperature, humidity, the age of the flip, and the type of coin. Under optimal conditions, PVC residue can begin to form in as little as two weeks. At ANACS, we only use Mylar flips. Mylar flips are free of all PVC.

The composition of a coin is a strong factor with the formation of PVC residue.

A gold or platinum coin will be the most resistant, a silver coin is next, and a copper or copper-nickel coin will be the most susceptible. Copper and copper-nickel coins are also highly susceptible to corrosion and/or spotting from excessive moisture and high emperatures. Due to this, collectors need to be extra careful with their choices of storage materials for these coins.

During the manufacturing process for soft vinyl flips, an agent is added to increase pliability. The main reason for this is to allow the flips to be reused without breaking or tearing. This softening agent will migrate out of the plastic over time, and becomes the surface film that is called “PVC Residue.” As this film continues to degrade, it eventually turns into a mild acid, and begins to attack the surface of the coin. Until the film is removed from the coin, it is usually not possible to tell if the coin has been damaged. Additionally, this chemical reaction can continue even if the coin is sealed in an inert plastic holder. This is why ANACS does not encapsulate coins with active PVC contamination.

Recognizing PVC residue is not always easy. When the residue begins to form, it often appears as light milky spots on the coin. PVC residue also appears as streaks or a light haze, and ranges from nearly white to dark green or gray. If the coin has enough contamination, and your sense of smell is good, you will detect an odor that imitates the smell of a new plastic shower curtain.

If they are sealed at ANACS when slabbed, I wonder if they use some binding  agent/glue to seal the slab under heat... That could cause some vapors inside that could have settled on the hologram and overtime chemicals reacted with material holo is made from...
It should be easy for ANACS to look into this...

I see some of the ANACS slabs have some sort of residue around the ring, thought it was glue or something but not sure how they are put together.

So we need a name for this...

Spotty Silvers?

Does ANACS make the plastic holders or do you have a company that does this for you?
All of the components for the new ANACS holder and the classic ANACS holder are manufactured for us. For security and proprietary reasons we do not release the names of these companies. One thing we definitely can tell you is that all components of the holder—the plastic, the label, the ink and the adhesives—have all been rigorously tested and are completely safe for your coins.

Or is it an "error" that dramatically INCREASES the price? 

I could see it being heat related or maybe how Mike held the coins in position during the melting process.  We'd need more info on that process and the equipment used.

So about your coin...  I expect the price will be marked down dramatically because of all the imperfections in the hologram, right dazed?

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

ANACS pop reports just state what they have graded. You can only use them as the maximum number. Big shortfall

I have a 69 error coin. The slab was scratched. So I got them to reslab it. They gave it a new reference number. So the pop report says there are 2, wheresas its the same coin twice. ANACS wont amend the pop report. I have asked them. Luckily I had imaging done on both, so can prove this ...

So even when they do the reslabbing, the pop reprt is inaccurate, let alone if anyone cracks themselves and resubmits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4pWpU3_qNw

Anyone fancy having a go at doing a redeemed Casascius coin ring .... ?

http://changeyoucanwear.net/product-category/non-silver-coin-rings/

monkeynuts actually cracked my Gold Titan for me to go back for a second round of grading at ANACS. He used some grips, with the slab inside a plastic bag to prevent shattered plastic getting everywhere. Crack each corner bit by bit, and slowly prised the slab apart.

I wouldn't mind seeing a cracking video.

I wouldn't mind seeing a cracking video.

How did u crack it? With pliers?

I have also seen this on a few

I have only seen on a slabbed coin. And only with a series 3 holo silver coin. I would love to hear from anyone seeing this on none slabbed coins, or none silver coins

I cracked one of those slabs for inspection. It would appear that once present, that it's permanent, ie it wouldn't wipe off.

Would love to hear an explaination

It is the coin for sure. I have several that also have those dots all over them.

It is the coin for sure. I have several that also have those dots all over them.

Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before 

Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before  

It's actually quite obvious on the first and second picture if you zoom in.
Wonder what causes that? humidity?
Location OP? US?

Could you actually circle the area where you noticed the dots @dumbchump?

Could you actually circle the area where you noticed the dots @dumbchump?