Topic: Casinobit - no house edge, 100% payout (Read 8167 times)

CasinoBit, you should hire me as a PR manager. Currently, you are doing PR worse than MPOE-PR, and that is really an achievement.

A few things for the future:

1) I'm a 30 year old IT professional who plays Minecraft. The dismissive tone you've had for the entire thread sounds like customer support I've experienced before that won't really care about my very real money at stake in their game. YOU are the sole PR person for this site that none of us have heard of before, and you've done a horrible job of providing PR - insulting and dismissing people groups.

2) You started off in your OP sounding like it was your project, and now you're saying that none of this is your repsonsibility. You're new here, introduce yourself. Give us a reason to like you, which I haven't seen yet.

3) You entered into an internet forum for an experimental peer-to-peer digital cryptocurrency where some of the first proponents were hardcore anarchists, but don't want to talk details about how the product works. Again, this sounds like not taking the time to actually try and learn about who you're talking to, which makes me think that I won't be taken seriously if I enter your site.

4) I also have access to chief security experts, some of whom make far more than $150 an hour. That doesn't mean that I hired them, which is what it sounds like you didn't do either. Of course, this could just be the fact that you have no technical chops to discuss what is going on with your site with people who demonstrably do.

5) The reason provably fair games are a necessity is that Bitcoin is rife with scams. A sickening amount of traffic that goes on is a scam, so people are very cautious. Again, you didn't read the forums, you didn't know who you were talking with, and you just come across as being a brat who expects people to believe you without proof. Casinos don't have to show proof because we can easily sue if it turns out that they aren't fair and they are legislated - this has become something that is known. If you suddenly disappear with the Bitcoins or cook the algorithms to have an edge while saying that you don't, we have little to no recourse.

What I see here is that you come into a forum that a cursory glance would show is very technically minded with no technical expertise to back you up. Then upon being asked for details, you proceeded to minimize, dismiss, and insult the very people who would be your biggest word of mouth believers and initial investors.

And last thought about the site: the color of the text on the buttons needs to be changed. Even if you aren't color blind, it requires concentration to get letters out of it. The entire site consists of same colored text on same colored background with no contrast to make it easy on the eyes. The font is too small to sustain that and it tires eyes out. There is also improper grammar in several places throughout, raising more red flags.

Final thought; you (as the website admin, I have to assume you have final say on what goes on the website) have felt the need to say on the homepage says "Bitcoin verifies transactions with the same state-of-the-art encryption that is used in military and government applications." Then you come onto the forum that is responsible for the community behind Bitcoin, and proceed to show a very poor knowledge of what encryption is. This disconnect between what is being stated and the meaning behind the words is what seems to be turning most of us off.

You are lost my friend.  You might see other operators as competitors but that's really not how we see ourselves when speaking to you about issues.  We all want to see Bitcoin succeed and crap websites don't help the community image.  So we just try to help, no one told you to go away.  If we wanted you to go away we wouldn't have said anything and your site would have taken the inevitable plunge to obscurity because your site really is garbage design and won't appeal to people.  Remember most people owning bitcoins are fairly technical and can smell crap from a country mile away.  We don't engage you to have a buddy to talk ciphers to.

Haha I must admit I did laugh 

I didn't mention poker.  You said other casinos' provable fairness was BS.  I asked if you had anything to back that up.  You dodged the question.  Holdem is irrelevant to my question since there's no bitcoin poker site currently offering provable fairness.

If you are a simple website admin, then please stop acting like you know more than everyone else here about provably fair gameplay, etc.  It is obvious you do not, as indicated by the countless number of statements you have made in this thread that were just plain wrong.

I've highlighted more text meant to insult in your prior post, which only serves to further dig yourself into a hole.  A proper response might have been as follows:

Notice how you can still get your point across without using sarcasm, implying lack of braincells in others, and guessing at their age?

It is obvious you DO mean disrespect by continually making snarky comments towards everyone here.  Revise your attitude, and maybe people will take you and your site more seriously.  People have given you good feedback and advice, and all you do is toss it in the trash and throw tantrums about how it doesn't need to be changed.  You seem to take every comment of constructive criticism personally.  I assume you want this site to succeed, but to do that, you need to grow a thicker skin, learn to take people's advice, know that you are NOT the smartest person in the room, and be the better person in any situation you come across.

Just my two bitcents.

Got it.  Like Tom Smykowski.  He deals with the god damn customers, so the engineers don't have to.  He has people skills, he is good at dealing with people!  Can't you understand that?  What the hell is wrong with you people?

I am a simple website admin, I am not here to discuss cryptography or any technical related info. I am a messenger between the person above me and the average user, I reply to emails, help resolve account problems etc etc, anyone with enough braincells to comprehend the concept of internal company hierarchy will understand that no one will pay a chief security expert which works with banks (and we have access to those) 150$ an hour to discuss ciphers with 16 year old teenagers that play Minecraft.

It is clear how much competition and dirty promoting exist on these forums since I was met with sticks and stones.

I mean no disrespect but I would rather trust my money to casino 777 than Satoshi or any other "provably fair" casino which will likely loose it's bitcoins as foolishly as Bitcoinia. Those who mind don't matter, those who matter don't mind. If there are any serious entrepreneurs that are ready to invest I can easily arrange an online chat with an expert.

And when a site uses a secret 10 characters in length, your bruteforce suddenly takes 3,844 days.  Watch out if they increase it to 14 characters, then you're looking at 155 million years!

So what makes you think a site like SatoshiDice would use an easy-to-bruteforce 8 character or less secret?  In fact, they use a 64 character secret!  http://satoshidice.com/secretlist.php

Seriously, you are doing a TERRIBLE job with PR for this site.  You come in here like a buffalo in a china shop, aggressively attacking anyone who disagrees with you, with no regard for the fact that THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT!  I would strongly suggest that you step down out of whatever public role you hold with the "company" and have someone else with a much thicker skin and who knows their cryptography step up to do the job.

Still I will pass the idea up top, after we introduce the deposit/withdraw modules and the general bitcoin exchange we can add something like that as a seperate little application below every casino game.

The fact that doing so will probably take anywhere between 175 and 24395872948732987 years to complete.

Hashing is a wonderful tool that solves all sorts of problems that when solved make a provably fair casino possible.  I invite you to learn as much as you can on the topic.

What stops people from paralleling the SHA256 hashing on many ALUs, like GPUs for example and bruteforcing the key?


How do you propose provable fairness will be implemented in Texas Holdem except using mental poker?

What do you mean by that?  Is it that you don't understand how provable fairness works, or have you found some way the sites can cheat despite their so-called provable fairness?  If so, could you please point out how?

I'm not sure how you think the rest of the casinos are BSing about provable fairness. THEY ARE NOT. SIMPLE EXAMPLE:

Lucky Number ranges from 1 to 100. If it's less than 50, you win 2x!

SITE has a secret. Say "foo". Now if they tell the secret, then people can calculate the lucky number. So they HASH it with something like SHA256 and tell you that.

YOU has a secret too. Say "bar". You give the secret to SITE. Now site will know your lucky number since they combine your secret, with their secret. However they cannot change their secret now since they already gave you the hash.

Now do you understand it?

You might say, but the site knows their secret! What if they played the game THEMSELVES? They'd knew what PLAYER secret to use to win! But the only point of that is you're SCAMMING THE GAME. However if 10% of the "game" is owned by outside investors, then you can scam them. So yeah, satoshidice can scam their shareholders but not you.

The roulette shouldn't even be there at the moment, everything is being remade.


There is no such thing. We could show that the game on the main page probably provably fair like Satoshi. The rest of casinos are BSing about provable fairness, we might as well MD5 hash the current millisecond and provide the string to the user as "evidence".

That depends on the payouts.  For example if he pays 37-1 for a single number instead of the usual 35-1 then it could be zero edge.  Seems unlikely though.  It would be simpler to just not have zeros on the wheel.  Makes the maths easier.

I want to remind again that Casinobit admin is misleading about 100% payout! Having 2 zeroes on the roulette gives him 5.26% advantage.

I was serious.  Your choice of colours and font size make that part of the page very ugly and hard to read for me.


He may not be looking for sane customers.  The insane ones probably make for better profits.  And if you look at the online gambling market as a whole, approximately 0.00% of all the money bet is bet at provably fair casinos.

If you're trying to appeal to the general public rather than people who know about bitcoin then provable fairness is probably something it's safe to ignore for the moment.  Most people don't even realise it's possible for a casino to prove that they're not cheating.

Your game needs to be provably fair before any sane person plays it.

More like competitors trolling me but meh, it's currently in the first testing stages and we don't really care to introduce the bitcoin community to the casino. We care more about introducing people from the gambling community who are new to bitcoin to the casino.

PR/Marketing fail itt

I am not into building businesses at the moment though. It was never my intention to claim that I have enough security knowledge to run a bitcoin casino, even if I was the owner, I didn't study for it and you need professional people who actually work in network security as a fulltime job. You have to be surrounded with great people for any business to succeed and a bitcoin casino isn't an exception.


I wasn't trying to be mean to Dooglas or make him feel uncomfortable, just addressing the issue with some humor. It did seem like he was "taking the piss" so to say.

I'll give it to you as requested!

The post I deleted was based on the assumption that you didn't understand how hashing works (you admit this in the context of password security) and was an attempt to explain it.  The reason I deleted it was that I came to understand that your point might have been that the secret list would permit the business to defraud its shareholders, not so much the business to defraud bettors.  I don't know that to be certain, but felt it was prudent to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think I ever accused you of trying to scam - rather, my contention was that you didn't appear to have the requisite security knowledge to run a bitcoin casino and handle other people's money, and appeared to be taking an attitude not of trying to learn it, but boldly dismissing it with overconfidence.

When you are confronted with someone engaging you on a security-related topic,


isn't an appropriate response.  The correct response is to either alleviate the concern, or address it on its own merits, without reference to people "not thinking for themselves".  In this case, the correct response would be "Including the transaction ID in the hash protects the bettors but doesn't solve the problem that leaves the shareholders vulnerable to insider fraud."

It's really not a matter of pride for me: I'll be proud of you if you bring a stable secure trusted casino to the Bitcoin world with a willingness to learn whatever you need to do to build the best business you can.

It seems that there's a definite divide in the way that gambling site operators respond to my style of commenting.  Some are very appreciative of and responsive to my comments, and some take it entirely the wrong way.

I tend to give up pretty quickly on the sites where I get a negative reaction since it doesn't bode well for the future should I actually have an issue with a payout or whatever.  I personally won't ever be playing at casinobit given what I've seen of how they have interacted with potential customers on this thread.

+1

I agree, the font on the green boxes, look very ugly. I can see it fine, I have very good vision.
But you should change it to something that is a lot more appealing to customers.

Dooglas is the man when it comes to testing gambling sites. It doesn't look good to write him off as color blind when he is just trying to give you advice. You would think knowing that someone who potentially would play your games is having trouble would make you want to change it so the max amount of customers can play.

No house edge? Really!!? With 2 zeroes on the roulette!!?

In case someone would bruteforce the hash it wouldn't be too fast to find the password and the maximum password length is just there so people won't forget their 35 character passwords. Of course it is also salted so even if someone would get access to the database it would still be impossible for him to access the accounts, the bitcoins themselves are stored at a remote server which accesses the website anonymously.


People are trying to hack it, there have been a lot of attempts so far, I personally encourage every attempt since it would be better to get hacked early on than later.


I actually hoped you would swallow your pride there and admit that I was right for a second, especially considering you decided to delete your own post. Which further accused us of trying to scam.

I like you all guys regardless and appreciate the feedback 

Ok, I admit that I was kinda stupid in my last post, I just learned about hash passwords, but this doesn't mean that no one else knows about it. So, my questions is, if you're hashing the passwords why are you concerned about the password length?

and here I couldn't run it in firefox also, only in chrome.

Site keeps crashing. No other site does this, so it isn't my side.
Will this be fixed? Or it doesn't work in Firefox?

Couldn't have said it better myself and yes there will be zero house edge blackjack and roulette, problem is we are losing money so far, hope that will change when poker/bitcoin exchange will be implemented.

The amount of flame/fail/anger/promoting/smart-asses in this thread is too damn high!

If this is truly 100% pay out, will there be zero sum roulette tables?
And zero house edge black jack games?

This part is actually true.  It is possible for SatoshiDice to deliberately make bets against themselves that they know in advance will win.  This will reduce their profits, and result in lower payouts to their investors.

It's not possible for SatoshiDice to cheat against their players though (except by using the wrong day's secret, or just not paying out at all).

Just to make things clear, I am just an administrator, not the owner or the support team or the programmers. I think you tend to get them mixed. If knowing the list ahead of time wouldn't be a problem it would be public wouldn't it?

This is troubling.  I'm not much of a gambler, and haven't ever played SatoshiDice, but someone bringing a casino to the Bitcoin community is really not doing their homework to not understand how SatoshiDice's hashing works and why knowing the secret list ahead of time isn't a problem if it's being hashed with the transaction ID.  The algorithm is too simple for someone willing to build a casino website to not understand, and the overconfident attitude is highly misplaced.  Sorry, but I must apply my stamp of disapproval to this one.

Just to make it clear, I have no interest in anything gambling-related whatsoever.

Competitors trying to bash us I guess.


Currently we do not make money, the transactions fees are paid on behalf of the users. (Thus no house fees because the transactions fees are paid to the house)

In the near future we will have a third party operating as an exchange, this is where the profits will come from.

Lol at all the people bashing this so hard.  Take the stick out of your ass and move on.

Are you kidding me?

just a note, if you're veryfying the password length, I can assume that you're storing the passwords in the database as plain text.

Man, it's a high security flaw, passwords in a database MUST be hashed and salted. I'malmost sure you don't know what I'm talking about, so take a time to learn more about it, and you should start reading here:

http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2006/12/15/never-store-passwords-in-a-database

and also see this site:

http://plaintextoffenders.com/about/

The game on the main page doesn't require registration, you can send an amount and receive back at your address. The captcha is meant to be that way and the email is for opening support tickets on the site, if we value our customers anonimity it doesn't mean that we never contact our players. It isn't at all like anything, it gives you a sense of community and brings people together, a whole new experience.

And we do not have support for the color blind at the moment sorry 

Nobody asked the real question, which I'm sure is the basis for all the skepticism. If your payout is 100%, how do you make money? How do you even pay the transaction fees?

I'm also a little confused.  Why do I need to register and provide an email address if you're


?

The game that appeared when I finally got logged in seems to be a little like satoshidice.  I send coins to an address to bet, and you return winnings to the address I sent from.  Why even ask for registration if that's the game?

Finally, is this how the game is meant to look?



It looks like there might be some small text in those green boxes.  If you chose a colour that contrasted with the green I might be able to tell for sure.

I still find it hard to read the captcha:



and you still won't let me use the password I want to (and the error message doesn't fit in the box it's meant to):



I've still not got to play any games so I can't tell if you've fixed the biggest problem - that your games lacked provable fairness.  But given your first post on the subject I doubt you think it's worth doing.

Edit: I used a shorter password, managed to register, then when I went to sign in it asked for a new captcha:



but I guess I read it wrong, because then it did this:



and I can't see where to go from there.  There's no option to try logging in again.

The whole feel of the site isn't very slick.  It feels like something that's only just been put together and needs the rough edges taken off.

Maybe currently you wouldn't but soon we will have commercial quality Texas Holdem, also no house fees 

(Not that I encourage your terrible gambling addiction in any way)

I have a gambling problem and i wouldnt touch this site with my worst enemy's bitcoins

Hi there you must own stocks of one of our competitors and no, we will never go away.

The concept is liberating not just to the bitcoin community but to the gambling community as a whole.

It is irrelevant, don't tell us how to handle our business please, we have had numerous attacks on our services, the last one happened ~10 minutes ago, never was there any data or bitcoin loss.

All the bugs reported by dooglus have been fixed.

You may be putting in *effort* but you are not producing quality outcomes.  TradeFortress is correct, if you are even using mysql instead of mysqli you are behind the php curve by a few years.  Languages evolve for important reasons, developers don't just deprecate the interface to the single most popular amateur database for no reason.  For example, you must not be using Prepared Statements... that's a structural issue, not a "beta" issue.

This is why it is a beta of sorts, try to hack it, I dare every player.

And I don't agree with the 3rd statement, we put more effort than 95% of casinos currently (if not all).

Are you serious? This is *horribad* programming.

1. You are using mysql, NOT mysqli. Mysql is deprecated.

2. You don't buffer headers, which is why you get the second error.

3. The architecture of your code is pretty bad. Why's that important? Because it shows you are not putting effort in development.

4. YOU ARE NOT SUPPRESSING ERRORS.

Watch out for pen testers.

Aside from the above, I tried making an account.

* it complained that my password was too secure.  maximum 15 characters allowed

* the captcha you use is very hard to read

* once I eventually got registered I tried logging in and got an ugly error page:



I guess I'll give up for now.

What's a TTP?  Do you mean "trusted third party"?

SatoshiDice can certainly place bets against themselves, and can tell whether any given bet will win or not before publishing the transaction.  In that way they can defraud their shareholders by "winning" their profits for themselves.


Any decent casino will save the state of the game.  If you get disconnected you just reconnect and carry on where you left off.


Yes, it does.  Use a big enough hash and bruteforcing becomes untenable.  sha256 is big enough if you hash a long enough secret.


I don't care about bets they make against themselves.  So long as they can prove that their interactions with me are fair that's enough.  I know SatoshiDice could be cooking their books to defraud their investors.  I also know that when I make the "lessthan 32768" bet with them I have exactly 50% chance of winning.  I'm not an investor of theirs.  As a customer I know I'm getting a fair deal.


Provable fairness (as used by satoshidice and bitzino.com for example) doesn't require a trusted third party.  The randomness comes from the customer providing some data that the house can't know in advance.  In the case of satoshidice the customer provides the txid.  At bitzino the customer provides an arbitrary "client seed".  In both cases the data provided by the customer determines the result of the bet, but so does the secret known only by the house.  The hash of the secret is provided before the customer provides their data, which ensures fairness.

Player beware.

This thread isn't about putting down any other website, it's about putting ours up, but it is possible for them to cheat you. You can open a different thread and discuss it there, please stop hijacking threads and backlinking from them.

You are writing bullshit! Really!

http://www.satoshidice.com -> Verification

Secret list! List! Not the transaction ID.

I swear it's like people keep repeating what others said instead of thinking for themselves.

You are wrong again! It is impossible for the SatoshiDice to know a Transaction ID ahead of time.

At the moment I doubt there is a casino in the world which is provably fair let alone one which accepts bitcoins anyone who claims otherwise is throwing around statements which are way too strong for him to comprehend and the 1% might not seem like a lot but in the long run it's the 1% that gets you.


It is possible for them to rob their investors by sending selective transactions to themselves since they know the secret list ahead of time. The casinos you keep mentioning don't even have contact information when in our casino you can always open a ticket and someone will get back to you, even if you ignore the fact that they are detrimental to the bitcoin community.

I will much rather think how we can really prove that we are trustworthy instead of proving that others aren't, we are in the creative business, not the competitive one.

I will believe your words if you are able to describe in details how to cheat for the SatoshiDICE operator.
Contrary, it is very easy to cheat for you as I have wrote in my previous post.

I'm confused, why don't you just determine the games ahead of time and release the proof that you didn't cheat?  You are asking players to trust you because way after the fact you can estimate whether you had an edge or not.  That's kind of shaky evidence when you could just as easily release the order of your outcomes and we can both determine that you didn't change any outcomes and that there is no house edge.

To be completely frank, I am skeptical of a house that claims to have no edge.  Players don't care if a casino takes 1% (or whatever percent).

Currently the game on the main page is a beta of sorts, with bitcoin being a public P2P network you can estimate the house edge yourself plus there isn't any casino which is more secure. It has come to our attention that some casinos are unauthentic:



Some casinos claim to be fair and some even claim to be provably fair when in reality they lie somewhere between the two definitions above since:
A) Nothing stops a casino from disconnecting from a player in the event of the player receiving a hand which is likely to win.
B) Nothing stops the casino from bruteforcing different keys incase a TTP is used to get an outcome which is the most profitable for the TTP.
C) Even such casinos which are considered 100% secure and use the last transaction or the hash of all transactions as means of determing a winning hand/number/player can still bruteforce the outcome by sending small amounts to themselves.
D) People that own shares of any competing casino don't state that clearly in their posts when bashing us to not make their personal gain obvious which is unethical in the real business world.
Thus any casino which claims to be fair/provably fair while having a TTP are liars at best and we are at least as trustworthy as them if not more since we are more serious regarding the matter and ready to invest a lot more funds into our casino.

Since having no TTP at all seems to be the only real answer to having a truly verifiable casino this has been our milestone and will always continue to be, until we get enough interest/investors/funds to support such a project.

Is there some verifiability in your games?  Do you release information so that we can prove wins and losses?

Please, be honest... You offer to play against the house and winner is being determined by your own random number generator. Therefore you can change outcome of any game or to know the results before it completes, so your house edge can magically climb from 0 to 100%.

Players, be cautious!

No house edge, 100% payout!

Key ideologies:

• No house edge, all games are free!
• No spamming the bitcoin network! We pay generous transaction fees!
• High quality HTML5 games.
• Anonymity is always a priority, we never save more information about you than what is necessary to operate, after which we securely dispose of it.
• Mental games that don't use a TTP are always better than ones that do.
• Responsible gambling.

HTML5, multi-platform poker is soon to be added, deadline is somewhere in the near 2 week. Casinobit will be the first Casino to use such technology.
Try http://www.casinobit.net you won't be disappointed!