Topic: CBDCs really worth it? (Read 397 times)

The most widely accepted definition of a CBDC is simply a transfer of powers from Commercial Banks to the Central Bank.  It's a common misconception that CBDCs will have anything to do with Blockchain technology.  I still hold the stance that a blockchain would be a poor choice for a ledger which almost certainly won't be distributed to public nodes.  If a ledger is centralised, blockchains confer fewer benefits and have larger overheads in terms of efficiency.

But fiat are used digitally before CBDC, while some countries claims they use blockchain technology, but do we have evidence of that?

Paper money are useful and no need of eliminating what is taking more resources until the time people no longer depend on it anymore. If paper money is not useful again, fiat can survive and amend into new technology. Even the so called CBDCs can be called fiat from its begining as digital fiat can also could have been called another name if the government wanted to deceives with another name when it was represented digitally and used for online transactions, also if the government have called CBDCs fiat too, it would have just been another type of fiat.

For example : Types of fiat

• Paper fiat
• Digital fiat
• Blockchain fiat (CBDCs), if true blockchain technology is used.

Do not let us be deceived. No resources is also wasted with digital fiat before the so called blockchain fiat.

From what you said now, it is clear that you know that CBDCs are fiat, the governments are only deceiving people, they want people to think it is like bitcoin but they failed because it is not but fiat of modern era using blockchain technology if true it is using blockchain technology.[/list]

What? This sounds insane mate.
You have just seen these CBDC of a thing from a very different angle and perspective. And what you stated above sounds true to a reasonable brain. Though I have never taken a good time to pay attention to the CBDC. I lost interest when I discovered that it's centralised and then not centralised in the hands of individuals, but in the hands of government.
Using CBDC to get real time transaction information of individuals and corporations could be one of the hidden agendas of CBDC, but banks does same thing with banks apps. Could it be that with CBDC, blockchain will help save the unending database for ever?

Yes, decentralized finance and especially Bitcoin is a real alternative to CBDC. 🔆

In the 21st century, states no longer cope with their social role.  They do not solve the problems of their citizens.  And CBDCs can't solve every problem either. 

Money performs two main functions - payment and savings.  CBDCs are capable of performing a payment function. 

However, digital money of the Central Bank is not capable of performing the function of savings.  Banks are actively attracting citizens' money to deposit accounts.  The CBDC system does not practice the use of deposit accounts (CBDC has other tasks). 

People will not be rewarded for saving money, on the contrary, people will be encouraged to actively spend it.  This will boost economic activity.  But people do not want to constantly run, as squirrels run in a wheel. 

Bitcoin (unlike CBDC) is a perfect store of value.

That's certainly true, mate. People seem to be missing the wider picture of CBDCs, probably because they're focused on making as much money with crypto as possible. They believe CBDCs will be as good as crypto, when that won't be the case. With a full-fledged digital economy backed by the government, we can say goodbye to privacy for good. It will enable a new era where banks and governments fully control our financial activities.

Fortunately, decentralized cryptocurrencies will be there to save the day. That is if the community is able to keep them that way. Remember, the key to freedom is to avoid Fiat as much as possible. Bitcoin is all you need to live a prosperous life free from the clutches of evil banks and governments alike. As long as decentralization wins, nothing else matters. Just my opinion

In my opinion, CBDC is an element of a digital concentration camp. 

Modern world elites are concerned about the issue of establishing total control over the inhabitants of the Earth. 

The Chinese government has been the most successful in developing and implementing CBDCs.  China is a very centralized state that tightly controls its citizens. 

CBDC is not just money.  CBDC is the circulatory system of the planned economy.  Regulatory authorities get the opportunity to receive real-time information about all transactions of individuals and legal entities.  From an economic point of view, this can be very useful.  It becomes possible to build complex supply chains, instantly eliminate cash gaps and save resources.  Saving resources is a big efficiency. 

That is, we are talking about increasing the efficiency of the economic system (but to the detriment of the rights and freedoms of individual citizens).

This is how the government have failed about CBDCs, it should have been better if CBDCs can compete with stable coins, no CBDC like that, non on exchanges, non is even listed on sites like Coinmarketcap and Coingecko. They are just fiat and have no further use that fiat can no be used for.

If in function, they are the same thing, no extra value added. Obviously you can not think about what you can use CBDCs for that you can not use fiat for. Is there any? None. But fiat is even better as it can be in physical form.

Fiat is better and it is all of CBDCs and more

Fiat can be represented in physical form
It can be transferred electronically (online), then what is modern era that we are talking about.

Fiat is existing in the traditional form as well as in modern day form. No essense for CBDCs in my opinion than that the government want to copy bitcoin and use blockchain technology.

They are only pegged with fiat and they are fiat in function. They just use different technology which is not transparent, we can see much about bitcoin blockchain but can you see that of CBDCs? Maybe all are lies, but I am not sure about that. Fiat can be sent just using new technology like mobile phones and computers, it is flexible to exist in old time way and new time way and adapt to upcoming technologies.

CBDCs are not competitng with stable coins as they can not even be used with crypto wallets and not existing on crypto exchanges.

CBDCs are not fiat, but it has the attributes of a fiat and both are owned by the same government.
Then while fiat is the old form of money, CBDCs are the new form of money.

If you say that because there is fiat, no need for CBDC;
I can say that there are offline forums, what's the need for online forum;
There is books offline, why the need for pdp formats or soft copies.

The world is already digital, with CBDCs, international trade tariffs will not be as high as the fiat. You will only need to pay transaction fees.

So, CBDCs are the new form of fiat and are here to battle with stable coins.

The government think they can compete with the crypto market through this CDBC then they are right because these are same as to centralised shitcoins in the market having no use.But these CDBC will have legal base and everybody can use it similar to Fiat but still the same old concept and will face the problems but it won't hurt the government.

If people and organizations don't support it then why they still continue creating it? But, those people and organizations can't do much anyway since banks and governments are still powerful compared to them and maybe those countries that already created their own CBDC have a people and organizations that fully supports them.

CBDC is still useful anyway and they see that. yes, it is like a fiat but only works digitally. We know that the world now rely online but this CBDC are only perfect for those who don't know or don't trust cryptos. For us crypto users, we won't use this because the reason why we use cryptos is because of its anonymity and decentralized features.

Correct! This is a good idea and i wish many could understand that bitcoin does not go with inflation at any cost, inflation only have negative effect on fiat in which the government and bank's system of running the economy keep failing, CBDC was intended with the aim to divert attention from bitcoin but they forget that what users want is privacy and decentralization and which they can't offer, there is much more better opportunities in dealing with bitcoin than getting hooked by inflation using fiat currency.

They both have different trade-offs, but I personally wouldn't argue that either is an improvement on physical cash.



This is assuming your government will want you to be able to send funds to exchanges.  I have a suspicion many governments will want the opposite of that.  CBDCs could just as easily be implemented as a tool which prevents you sending or receiving funds from services that handle cryptocurrencies.

If the data on the Wiki is correct, he worked in the banking sector from 2008 to 2012 as an investment banker at Rothschild&Cie Banque. It is true that he spent many more years in the financial sector, but exclusively working for the civil service and as a minister. I don't know what he thinks about CBDC, but I know he supported a French company that makes hardware wallets.



The French presidential election has just ended and Macron won with 58% of the vote, so it's not clear to me why you think he has such low support? At the end who will ask people what they want and approve of? When the digital euro is ready, the first countries to adopt it will be France and Germany anyway.

CBDC is perceived as being an integral component of a digital cashless society.

A cashless society makes it difficult to tip waiters and strippers. It makes it difficult or impossible for transactions of used goods and services, without the approval of a central bank. Small businesses who can only exist through paying employees cash, may no longer be able to operate under CBDC / cashless society formats.

CBDC and a cashless society could create a world where people have access to fewer opportunities and financial tools.

It is no surprise that CBDC and the concept of a cashless society would be met with widespread disapproval.

Macron worked in the banking industry for many years and may not be the most independent or objective source on CBDC. Macron's public approval rating is also not the best. I think his approval rating is 20%. Which could mean as much as 80% of the population in france oppose CBDC/cashless society.

Why create CBDC though when there's no difference about it in fiat, they just made their physical money into a digital form of payment. This is also a centralized money which the government can easily intercept and do the same as what banks been doing. I'd rather choose Bitcoin over this one where the price could potentially pump in no time than this which I think is like XRP that constantly correcting the price.

That is exactly what they want, governments are realizing that bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are not going to spontaneously disappear so they are joining the game hoping to deceive as many people as they can, however it is a difficult battle, because those which have decided to not adopt bitcoin do not see the point of getting CBDCs when they can do everything they need with their bank accounts already, while those that adopted bitcoin because they know what is going on will never use CBDCs anyway.

You can put as much faith into CBDC's are would the central banks' fiat currency. That is to say, you should be no faith into CBDC's, perhaps even less than fiat currencies. CBDC's just digitalizes the money supply allowing for even more control than already exists. Modifying the money supply just requires inputting digits into a keypad, and any holders are subject to adherence by arbitrary regulations that the central banks might impose.

This will be the result of the government CBDC because the major reason why CBDC came into the picture is the government's FOMO and there's no way they will achieve some good out of it but if they support cryptocurrency and don't see it as a competition between their national currency it will be a win-win for them.

Depends if one government finally realizes that CBDC is actually an improved version of stablecoins, not the digital version of fiat. If they could handle that, then they could start getting in contact with exchanges and things could escelate from there. Plus if you are not talking about somewhere proper, then we are not going to end up seeing something decent anyway. I am not saying that it won't happen at all, but who's going to buy swiss franc or something? I get that euro, pound could have some power, but even they wouldn't be as big as USD CBDC, that is the only one I am expecting to actually matter.

You're welcome, because I think a lot of people live under the misconception that the authorities are most afraid of Bitcoin, even though their focus is pretty much on stablecoins. Because of all that I’ve mentioned before, but also one more important thing - and that’s unlike Bitcoin which has POW and is impossible to counterfeit, stablecoins that should be backed up with something (fiat or something else) are often printed without of any real cover. This opens up a huge space for manipulation, and the authorities are aware of that.
 

It is true that governments currently have a problem with how to maintain a monopoly in the field of finance, but we should also not forget that they have very strong mechanisms to turn things around. If they want to harm Bitcoin, all they need to do is ban trade and payments in that currency, and it is a well-known fact that most stablecoins can be frozen no matter what wallet they are in.

The only question is how long the EU and the US will play the game "we are not like the Chinese and we will not go in the direction of complete bans", and whether at some point it will be decided that the time has come for the final showdown.

Not only that but CBDCs enable governments to have a full scope of your daily financial activities. They'll be a great tool for massive surveillance, putting an end to the era of privacy for good. Everything else will be most likely the same way as it is with Fiat right now. The benefits are numerous from eliminating the need to print new bills (paper money) to easily increasing the supply, and more. CBDCs will certainly be a better option than existing stablecoins simply because they'll have the backing of mainstream governments. But CBDCs will never "beat" decentralized cryptocurrencies simply because these are too big to fail. As long as decentralization wins in the long run, nothing else matters. Just my thoughts

There might not be a choice if launched, and I believe it would be the wiser decision to use CBDC and pretend that you're a normie, than refuse to use it and be a target by the government. Plus it might actually be convenient for gas/fuel and coffee. Haha.

But you're right, there must be awareness/understanding, and there must be deception on our part.


If you can't convince them, then just convince them to HODL Bitcoin as a hedge, and not only as a financial hedge, a hedge against censorship, against the people who control the monetary system, and as protection for our sovereignty.

For reference on what is a CBDC, https://digichina.stanford.edu/work/lets-start-with-what-chinas-digital-currency-is-not/

It will be a laughable mistake like you said, CBDCs are not cryptocurrencies, they are pegged with fiat, they are fiat. The government just want to fool people in a way people not to invest in cryptocurrencies like bitcoin which can be used as an hedge against inflation.

In my country, CBDC was created but it has no competition with fiat, people did not use it because it is just fiat just like how we are sending fiat to another person online.

To answer this question correctly, let us look at the countries where their government has created their own CBDC which shows there's no huge difference that makes the CBDC worthwhile and the only change I see is the CBDC being easy to use, it limits people carrying fiat currency around while it gives the government more control over people fund and privacy.

Thank you, that's some enlightenment I received there.
I never thought they might be going thru problems like this but it is a fact. Stablecoins may be their best enemy right now before Bitcoin.
I can remember threads discussing about "when banks are going to adopt the blockchain technology". I think this is it. They are trying to adopt it and yet they can see conflict with what they want.
Maybe people are mixed with different emotions of being afraid about the unknown and also the centralization of all. Cash had been the simplest and traceless thing so there is the scary part when compared to CBDC.

This is what I'm thinking too, a lot of people have heard about bitcoin once in their life but they still haven't dared to use or invest in bitcoin because most of them only hear negative news about bitcoin, bitcoin is associated with a scam, bitcoin will disappear or bitcoin is virtual money and has no value. Once the CBDC comes out, the government will find a way to compare their bitcoin with the CBDC and they will praise the CBDC and declare bitcoin an illegal currency. Or another reason maybe they create CBDC to replace stablecoin because they don't want the money printer to fall into the hands of someone else.

It's a moment we need to capitalise on.  This is when we need to raise awareness to the public about what their choices really are. 

CBDCs hand unprecedented control to Central Banks and Governments.  At any time and for any reason, they could reverse, block or even confiscate the money from any fiat transaction.  Cash will undoubtedly be phased out, so with the exception of crypto, there won't be any other alternatives.  If authorities suddenly decide they don't want people buying a particular product or dealing with a particular company, service or even charitable organisation, the money could be seized.  People need to understand the dangers. 

But so far, it feels like we can't even convince many of the people here on this forum that this isn't in their best interests.  I see so many deluded fools thinking it's going to be like a better version of a stablecoin, endorsed by those in power.  When in all likelihood, not only would it be the final nail in the coffin for "The War on Cash", it could also be the opening salvo to start off "The War on Bitcoin". 

But the government will do that right at the start. They will be "good boys", bringing this new digital currency to us, providing us with a more convenient, and efficient way of transacting with each other. Many people will be bullish about CBDC technology, and every disinforming troll in the forum would start encouraging us to HODL our savings in CBDC. That will be a laughable mistake.

However further restrictions of decentralized cryptocurrencies will be the next thing on the agenda if CBDCs happen to work out, governments tried to destroy this market and failed, so they are executing plan B, which is to create their own coins and try to deceive people and try to make them believe their coins are better, and as you state there is a great deal of people out there that care nothing about their privacy, so it is not difficult to believe they will be successful in the implementation of their plan, and then they will argue that is incorrect for decentralized cryptocurrencies to provide a higher level of privacy than their own coins, which will give them yet another chance to try to destroy or at least hinder this market.

I think the only difference is the usage of ledger (whether it be blockchain or not) no? I mean the only reason they'd ever push for CBDC was to make it a lot easier for them to identify the transactions done by each user they have. I mean look at China, they went big on studying CBDC imo all because of that reason since it fits to a T with the way they want their citizens to be governed. I don't even think there's gonna be an improvement based on qol, it's still theh same old fiat. Even if you consider the "digital" aspect, it's not like the fiat of now can't be used digitally.

I do. Although they are essentially the same shit, there is still cash left in today's fiat monetary system. Although people are paying more and more with digital means (cards, cell phones, smartwatch...), those who want privacy can pay with bills and coins and leave no trace of their activity, unless they ask for an invoice in their name. With CBDCs, however, absolutely all payments made by citizens will be recorded.

As long as a CBDC is a choice and isn't forced on people in any way, I'm not against it. And by forcing, I also mean something like making it very hard to receive a salary or social payments or something like that without using a CBDC. Not everyone cares about privacy, and a CBDC allegedly can help save up on transaction fees. So people can try it, some might enjoy it. CBDC is an alternative to fiat which is extremely similar to it, basically. As long as that doesn't lead the government to restrict decentralized cryptocurrencies, it's not a threat to the crypto market.

If you are posting often on economic board, you should remember the US Covid-19 money printing that people have been posting on this forum last year many months ago that people said would probably lead to inflation. US has experienced over 7.8% inflation this year.

I am getting you right now, the supply you meant is money printing, that is true, it can lead to inflation but it depends on the the output value of an economy. Assuming if the money printing correspond to an increase in overall output value of an economy, it will not lead to inflation, but if the money printing does not correspond to the overall output, that will lead to inflation.

By increasing supply, I meant that CBDC will be still like fiat which is created out of the thin air. It won't be like bitcoin which has a fixed total supply.


The papers you use as fiat currency are printed out of thin air. Governments always print more papers and reduce the value of existing papers.

Worth it for who?

For us, probably not so much.

But for any government who want a perfect spyglass and tool to intercept funds?  Absolutely.

I do think that there can be both positive and negative points for CBDC's

Positive:
1. If integrated with trading perse they would be providing a great alternative to usdt with Bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies as well making sure that people have enough time and space to encash in their usual local currencies making it not only cost effective but more diverse.
2. The connection of banks and cryptocurrencies can increase.
<< But we all know that the government before anything they are yelling about how bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies are a nuisance and therefore they should be taken out before their fake crypto can come out>>
Therefore the negative can be :
1. They are not cryptocurrencies
2. Super looked after that means zero privacy
3. Too controlled, zero volatility
4. Government might try and push the agenda through causing harm to the laws concerned with Bitcoins and other cryptos

It can be printed in what context do you mean by this?
Is it that fake fiat currency can be printed or that its nothing when compared to the role and uniqueness of digital currency (bitcoin)?


Not until the governments realized the need of the people that its not changing the packaging (fiat note - digital fiat CBDC) is what people really want rather than privacy, trust, security and decentralization in their economic and financial lives. this is freedom and the more we are craving for it the more they overlook it and i want to believe that this freedom is already gotten and taken in bitcoin and there's nothing they can do about it.


That same thing we don't want is what our leaders are craving for, a situation to exercise dominion over every humanitarian affairs, a situation where they can apprehend unjustful, a situation where we need to beg them before we can have access to our finances and a good living.

I share the view that there is really no necessity for a CBDC. But if it has to be created, it simply substitutes and unites the various ways of digitalizing fiat. So far, central banks are not issuing digital money. The process of fiat digitalization is upon banks, card providers, payment services, e-commerce platforms, and so on. When CBDCs are to replace fiat's old form, money is in its digital form right from its issuance. Somehow, it simplifies the process.

They will make design decisions that would not be of the interest of the people, believe me. We have already seen, in Canada, what the banks and the government can do to their own people. With the CBDC, the government can do it more effectively, and more efficiently. CBDC represents the extreme opposite of the Bitcoin ethos.

It seems like a pointless venture, to create CBDC's in the first place and secondly if they indeed
want to compete with the likes of USDT its not going to happen unless it can have the same
exposure as USDT.

I already use FIAT in a digital way as in I rarely use Cash, I use my smartphone and card to
pay digitally for goods, I also have a digital FIAT wallet on my smartphone.

Maybe the CBDC's are designed to bring force mote people onto a digital platform?

The government approach is not excellent at all, or maybe of how I see CBDCs, my country created one already and I see no good need for it than to use our fiat, the CBDC created by the government in my country has its own digital wallet but not on multicoin crypto wallet, it was said that it was not even a cryptocurrency, it can not be used on exchanges ornbenstored using keys generated on crypto wallets. Government suppose to create a kind of CBDCs that can compete with USDT and other stable coins on crypto exchanges which is what the governments should do, not CBDCs that are not cryptocurrencies that have no way to compete with stable coins. Assuming the governments have their own stable coin that are cryptocurrencies, people will prefer to use it compared to using USDT and others that are just created by private companies. As USDT dominates stable coins, it can even still be freezed on noncustododial wallet. The government are taking a wrong approach in my opinion as CBDCs are just totally fiat and nothing specially added.

Governments will obviously advocate CBDCs as per them it is gem of a thing, it's cryptocurrency but obviously it gives them complete control to regulate the supply of the currency and at the same time know who is making what transactions. But for someone who is into cryptos CBDCs make zero sense, they actually spoil the fun of Cryptocurrencies and are just like Fiat upgraded versions. So to be honest they are not really worth it.

It is not at all disputed that Bitcoin is something that the ruling elites are certainly afraid of, as well as anything else that they cannot control. However, from what could be learned from the statements of various EU bureaucrats and the statements of the ECB leaders, they are still much more afraid of stablecoins, which are in fact in some ways much more competition to the fiat.

We all know that stablecoins are basically pegged with fiat currency in a 1:1 ratio, and we also know that stablecoins are extremely popular when trading cryptocurrencies because their transactions are cheap and fast, and bypass banks. This means that governments want to become competitive with their fiat in the sense of turning it into a CBDC, otherwise they could lose the race with stablecoins and Bitcoin.

Even there is nothing like supply about CBDCs, or maybe I am not getting you right, just like you said that it is not at all different from fiat, it only just has the price of fiat and nothing more. But the central banks are saying it is built using blockchain technology but it is not just transparent like those of bitcoin that we know how it works, I have not even believed it is built using blockchain technology.

I think you are almost doing a comparison of fiat/CBDC and cryptocurrency. You are making a statement of why fiat is not used after all having internet wallet etc but I will just touch on that to say that bitcoin is freedom and uncontrollable by any government but fiat or CBDC is under the control of government. This is the difference and glaring truth about the situation.

I don't really see any difference between a digital currency issued by the governments and fiat. There are two big problems with fiat. 1. It's centralized and the governments have full control over people money.  2. It can be printed.
A digital currency issued by a government still have both problems. I am sure they will design the so called digital currency in a way so they can increase the total supply whenever they want.


Yes. There is no need to such currencies.
Governments believe that bitcoin is a threat to the control they have over people's money and think that with introducing such a digital currency can decrease that threat. That's the only reason they think of creating such a currency.
After launching their CBDC, some governments may say that "why do you want bitcoin? Our CBDC is better than that and bitcoin is illegal".
They don't really know how bitcoin works and think they can prevent people from using bitcoin is this way.

This news is some days passed but I remembered it when I was checking the crypto news about the French president, how he supports digital Euro:


I clicked on the news in my quote: ‘There are already digital means of payment’: EU Commission gets 11,000 public comments on CBDC project

It is about European Commission which opened digital Euro for the EU initiative up to the public consultation, over 110000 individuals and organizations left their feedback. The consultation process predates legislative consideration of the digital euro, which is expected to be scheduled in 2023. To know more about this, click on the above link.


I am not talking about the Emmanuel Macron which is the French president, people will have different opinion about CBDCs, just how I got the news and brought it here for discussion.

Countries want to create their own CBDC, some piloted and created theirs already. But the consultation about the creation of digital Euro is on the down side, people and organizations do not support it. I have been thinking like this before, what is important about CBDCs that traditional local currency (fiat) can not be used for? Fiat has electronic wallet, can be used for electronic (online) payment, it has the same value as the fiat of the country that created it, it is even the fiat, it is completely controlled by the central bank and the government, CBDCs are just fiat. Why creating CBDCs, it is not necessary in my opinion.