Topic: Cheap & silent mini PC for Bitcoin node & blockchain explorer? (Read 819 times)

I like the design, but I don't like the price  
Quartz mechanism is good enough for  me as a silent wall clock.

Every watt counts, and gold rated power supply makes a huge difference compared to regular ones  

Does Raspberry have any plans to Pi500 version with integrated keyboard, similar like Pi400 that was released few years ago?

I'm thinking of using a Raspberry Pi5 with 8Gb of ram and a 2Tb Crucial P3 NVME disk. It's very quiet, well cooled, well supported and has lots of connectivity options. You can use a laptop as a terminal to control it, so you don't need a screen keyboard or mouse. Power is provided through an USB-C port. I want to use this to research my old hard drives with wallets on them, but it would be great to run a full node. The ssd is extremely fast, and that helps in handling blockchain files.

I'm still on my Dell Optiplex 9020M, and it's doing a great job, so I'm in no rush. But at some point I'll want to upgrade to newer hardware, and I'll probably go the DIY rackmount route. Looking at the Odroid H4+, that's actually the best option currently. I'd choose the Mini-ITX kit and use my own rackmount chassis. But the board seems to have everything you need: up to 48 GB of RAM, eMMC for Ubuntu Server boot volume, x4 gen3 M.2 SSD for the data volume (timechain etc.), and a SATA SSD as backup volume. Compared to the Odroid, the ASRock N100DC-ITX, while surely a nice efficient board, would probably be overkill.

As for the Odroid cases, I could see myself using one of them with a second Odroid board as a remote Lightning watchtower node. But that would be stage 3. 

Which route did you end up taking? Did you actually build that node or are you waiting for some results regarding ODROID-H4 Plus performance? (Hardkernel already has a case available in their website bt the way)

You need one of these then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmos_clock

https://www.jaeger-lecoultre.com/us-en/clocks/atmos




At least with the mid range Dells and HPs that I deal with, I see a high variation of power pull from the wall when using cheap generic AC adapters vs. using the OEM ones.
Better build quality and better components probably saves you 3 to 5 watts at a minimum. Over years and years of 24/7 use that does add up to a real number.

-Dave

Don't trust, verify (with power meter).
You are assuming that everyone is using brand new fridge with class A energy classification, but I don't think they do.
I could probably give better example with electric heater or air conditioner that are biggest power consumers but I wanted to have something that is working 24/7.
Only other thing I could think off is light bulbs, but there are old style incandescent and new led lights, so it is wide range of consumption.

Here is what AI told me about average fridge power consumption:


This is what AI is saying for average laptops:

Using less power doesn't mean you have a minimalist lifestyle. I don't mind using a lot of power, but if I can do the same thing with less, I do it.

Any PC can run 24/7. If it doesn't have enough cooling, it won't last an hour. If it has enough cooling, there's no upper limit. Just clean dust from the fan once in a while.

I don't have much experience with the mini PCs but as far as I know it's not really customisable in terms of hardware so we can only make changes via software tweaks. The price of custom build decent PC can be around $200 with most recent processor which is positive than going with an outdated gen processor. Fan comes with processor itself enough for this very particular purpose but indeed a little more space along with fans comes along cabinet can reduce heat dissipation a lot.

Depends on the manufacturer & their BIOS ofc, but you could always apply additional tweaks, so the CPU will throttle faster. And there might be more options, e.g. disabling turbo boost or (depending on the CPU) hyper-threading or a couple of cores. (But you'd need to test stuff like this, especially on an off-the-shelf PC, because going too low power with BIOS tweaks might destabilize the system, and you'd worsen the situation that you originally wanted to improve.) But if you use the machine only for Bitcoin (which you should), then some BIOS tweaks might be OK.

An occasional reboot is a good thing, too, in order to free swap memory etc. My current node is running Ubuntu Server, which is probably solid enough for a reboot once a year, even on an old office Mini PC, but I still reboot about once a month when applying system updates. If you maintain your system regularly, you will automatically reboot more often.

As for fans… that's why I'm a proponent of DIY builds. For these passively cooled boards, one chassis fan would probably be sufficient to thwart any potential heat instability issue, and you could also get a model (e.g. from Noctua) that comes with a low or ultra low noise adapter, which tend to draw less additional power. Moreover, these boards usually come with a standard BIOS, and are perfectly fine for additional low power tweaks. But, as was said earlier, DIY builds cost a bit more… it will take many years to make up for the additional investment costs, maybe never, and you might prefer to use that extra money to buy some sats instead.

You guys are taking things too extreme.

Minimalist life is understandable what about this new trend, power saver?

Mini PCs are not really suitable for 24/7 operations cause it comes with congested area, more heat so probability of crashing is high and many of this kind doesn't come with cooler fans.

Been there, done that. The energy crisis made me more aware.
I wouldn't compare my fridge with a node though: I can't really go without a fridge. But if I were to buy a new one, it would be an energy efficient one. Now that I check it: you're wrong on the power consumption. This one (260l fridge, 103l freezer) consumes 11.9W on average. That's a lot less than my current laptop. That's really impressive!

Lol. I bought one without a "tic" sound every second. But now that it's getting older, it makes 5 sounds per second.

Sure, but we are not talking big savings here, unless you turned all devices in your house to lower power.
Refrigerator and other devices are spending much more power and they are working 24/7.
It's not a bad idea to buy power meter for sockets to check how much power they all use.

Same here.
I even purchased totally silent analogue wall clock.

The issue for something like this goes back to what I said above. Cost.
But the ODROID boards start at $100 before case / power supply / RAM / Drive.
A pre-built one with all of that but not fan-less is $200

Depends on what you are looking for. But by the time you add 16GB of RAM and a 1 TB m.2 you are looking at more money.

-Dave

Hardkernel have released the new ODROID-H4 series, and the H4 Plus would probably be the best choice for a DIY node build:

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h4-plus/

It uses one of Intel's N-series chips, but the N97 instead of the N100; the N97 is a little more powerful, with passively cooled 12 W TDP instead of 6 W, but since it's such a tiny board, it will idle at only 2,7–2,8 W when using DC power; maximum 48 GB of DDR5 memory; 2 * 2.5 GbE RJ45 ports; an eMMC slot for the boot volume, e.g. Ubuntu Server; an M.2 slot with four lanes for full gen3 x4 speed, e.g. as the node's data volume for the timechain etc.; four SATA ports via PCIe 3.0 x1 for either 2 * 500 MB/s SATA SSDs or 4 * 250 MB/s SATA HDDs; so you could use one SATA SSD or HDD as a backup destination for your data volume, in case your primary data volume is corrupted… or use three SATA SSDs in RAID5 or RAIDz1 as the primary data volume, with the M.2 SSD (or a fourth SSD or HDD) as backup.

Hardkernel will release cases for these tiny boards, but there's also a Mini-ITX kit, if you want to put this into your own chassis, e.g. a rackmount:

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/h4-mini-itx-kit/

At 4 cents a day profit I'd have free heating all winter Unfortunately, I've never seen any mining that's worth it considering the prices here.

or do the p320 pc I linked with an 8gb discrete gpu. and hope for a decent gpu mining run.

I earned far more then the power it costs. At the moment it earns about 4 cents a day profit I dont bother using it since 4 cents a day profit is meh. But many days it made 40 cents a day.

That kills the nuc or the rasp pi.

I owned four different rasp pi the 1 the 2 the 2b? the 3

when I started seeing cheap 8 inch by 8 inch by 1.5 inch tiny pcs I switched.

I then found the p320 which fits the t1000 8gb gpu I would never use a rasp pi I likely won’t use the nuc

but they finally lowered the nuc prices to compete with the lenovo p320 the hp optiplex and the dell tiny

Sort of, the next factor is cost.
As I pointed out you can get silent mini PCs but they cost more since you are more or less getting it in a full metal case that is essentially a giant heatsink.
You can even get full size PCs that are mostly silent: https://silentpc.com/fanless-pcs/
But they cost a lot more.

It all depends on what you are looking for.

-Dave

I'd like to think that every watt counts, especially if you can do the same task with less electricity, and especially for tasks that run 24/7. At € 0,2718/kWh, each additional watt costs €2.38 per year. If you can get 20 watts off by buying the right hardware for the job, and plan to run it for 6 years before replacing it, it's worth spending up to €285 more on the hardware.

Usually, power and noise go hand in hand. Less power means less cooling. I used to have loud hardware around me, but now really appreciate quiet things.

Depends on the device.
The cheaper ones have fans. There are ones that are more money that are fanless.
Plastic case and a cheap fan cost a lot less then a big chunk of aluminum

-Dave

I understand the need to save power with low-power mini PC devices, but running a node 24/7 is not spending all that much power like bitcoin mining does.
However, I do appreciate when something is silent and quiet and I am ready to pay for that.

Does Intel N100 devices have passive or active cooling?
This days I more prefer AMD than Intel, it would be interesting if they have some alternatives available.

RPi lost the price advantage, when Intel dropped the prices on the low power CPUs. Even when the RPi4 came out the embedded / N100 type CPUs (yeah I know those did not exist then but the equivalent) were more then the entire RPi itself. Now Intel is pushing the board + CPU (no ram) should be at the $50 or so price point. So getting the mini PCs out the door now for $175 is not even that hard.

The Zeros and other ones are a different story but the last run of the 4's and now with the 5's RPi has gotten more expensive.
HOWEVER, the RPi can be more of a tinker project. There are a lot of cases, add on boards, and other things that you can use it for. The mini PCs are.....mini PCs if you can't plug it into a USB port you can't add it.

In the end it really is going to depend on what you want to do with it.

The new mini / NUC vs used micro PCs that Phil uses can probably be discussed forever. It really comes down to what *you* like.

-Dave

I remember the Raspberry Pi as being cheap back in the days. The Dutch Raspberry Pi Wiki confirms it started as educational, with an open structure. Wiki shows a $5 basic price (Pi Zero) up to $35 for the Pi 4 B. I also remember seeing all kinds of extensions you could buy, to connect other applications, do your own programming and use it to automate real life things.
Nowadays, the Pi seems to be used more as a small computer, with more power, more memory, more storage, and a higher price. I've never owned one, but it looks like it's a completely different product with a different target audience now than when it started.

yeah not a fan of the rasp pi.

It seems underpowered expensive and not very reliable.

the nucs look okay.

but my p320 is pretty much flawless.

it is small enough and whenever gpus are earning well it makes money to run it.

You could probably even go for a mobo or a Mini-PC with an Intel N50 CPU instead of the N100… only two cores & two threads (based on the Alderlake efficiency cores) at 6W TDP.

But still better than the Pi 4: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4297vs5632/BCM2711-vs-Intel-N50
EDIT – comparison of Pi 5 and N50 (no benchmarks yet): https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-raspberry_pi_5_b_broadcom_bcm2712-vs-intel_processor_n50

If you're only using it for a Bitcoin node with Lightning etc., two cores should be A-OK.

Not sure if any N50 Mini-PCs exist on the market, but there are a couple of Mini-ITX boards, but only from Chinese manufacturers or industrial providers like Kontron, incl. the tiny Mini-STX form factor, but the Chinese boards tend to be iffy, e.g. regarding BIOS & updates, and the industrial products tend to be more expensive.

A super-efficient Mini-STX build would e.g. use a board like the Kontron K3921-N1 industrial board with the N50—which, even though it's an STX, would still be quite expensive (probably more than €150), and I couldn't find any consumer-grade Mini-STX boards—, plus a Mini-STX chassis, e.g. the SilverStone VT-01 with space for one additional 2.5 inch SATA SSD.

My own DIY Mini-ITX rackmount build with an N100 that I slapped together last night would use:

• Inter-Tech 1U-K-126L rackmount chassis
• 2 * Noctua NF-A4x20 PWM fans
• ASRock N100DC-ITX
• 19V 120W DC power supply

for a total of approx. €250 w/out shipping for a barebones build w/out memory and storage. More than an old refurbished Mini-PC of course, but not much more than e.g. an N100 Beelink.

I like the larger  8 inch by 8 inch by 1.5

dell
Lenovo
hp

all make them

The best one I have is a Lenovo think station.

two 2 tb msata ssds
16 gb ram
a disctrete nvidia gpu
and an 8th gen i5 or maybe i7

I have a post on it somewhere.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.60489562

I have the p320 it is a fucking beast.

and I have a Nvidia t1000 gpu in it.

so whenever gpu mining is profitable I mine with it.  Which means it actually makes 25 to 75 cents a day.

Along with running the node.

here is one for 250 or best offer

https://www.ebay.com/itm/335122507289?


i7-7700t cpu and 32gb ram just add a pair of better msata's

And somewhere between those options, you can buy barebone (without RAM and storage drive) mini PC. That way, you could save a bit of money by choosing your own RAM and storage, while also avoiding built-in Windows (if you prefer using Linux).


Looking at benchmark result (between Intel N100 and Raspberry Pi 4 CPU), it's more accurate to say it's far faster.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5157vs4297/Intel-N100-vs-BCM2711

Another option I have is to combine it all into one server. I do plan on building a home server/NAS, which would be running 24/7 anyway. So any additional Bitcoin & Lightning processes wouldn't really matter regarding power consumption. But I'd go for Unraid, and while there is a Docker container for bitcoind, there are none for lnd, Fulcrum, mempool etc., at least none with official or community support. So it would all have to go into an Ubuntu Server VM, and that would be a bit overkill imho.

Yes, I have been moving my RPi setups and other old micro PCs to the N100 Beelink and similar.

Faster then the PI, cheaper then the PI (once you add in the cost of case + PS + stuff) a little faster then the 4th gen i5 and a tiny bit slower then a 6th gen i5 but for applications like this it's perfect. 16GB Ram and 512GB drive for less then $175. Just swap out the drive for a 1TB ($65) and you are good to go. For $10 on amazon you can get a case for the drive that came with it and you now have a 512GB portable USB drive and it's all new. No worry about refurbs.

-Dave

Hey, all… my first post.

For a few years I've been using a refurbished Dell Optiplex 9020M micro with an Intel Core i5-4570T, 16 GB of RAM, and an internal 2 TB SATA SSD… running Ubuntu Server. It works fine, but it's an old machine, and newer & more efficient low-power Mini-PCs have been flooding the market for a few years now.

I'm currently eyeing one based on the Intel N100, which, compared to the old CPUs (especially the Intel Core CPUs), is a lot better:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5157vs2041/Intel-N100-vs-Intel-i5-4570T

For example, the Beelink Mini S12 Pro comes with 16 GB of RAM out of the box, can work with 32 GB, can house an M.2 NVMe SSD up to 2 TB and an additional SATA SSD of 2 TB, which is probably enough for a full node running Ubuntu Server for many decades worth of timechain storage, all of it on the internal M.2, with regular automated backups to the internal SATA SSD. And it's probably not a lot more expensive than an old refurbished Mini-PC.

More fun of course would be to build one yourself, e.g. with an ASRock N100DC-ITX, and a cheap Mini-ITX chassis, e.g. one by SilverStone like the Milo 10, or (if you have a home lab) a 1U rackmount chassis for better expandability, which is always possible with a DIY build.

I'm really happy with this setup.  The PC runs surprisingly cool and I've never heard the fan kick on at all.  Well, I assume it has a fan, but I've never heard it.

I've only had it running for 8 days, but it's been great.

Setting up Start9 was so easy to set up that I feel foolish for now doing this a while ago.  I'm running Bitcoin Core with a full node (not pruned, in other words), plus Electrs and Mempool.  With Start9, this was basically one click installs for each, and maybe a bit of config?  Actually, I think most of the configuration was set up on install.  I mean, this was ridiculously easy.

It took around 30 hours for Bitcoin Core to sync the entire blockchain, and Electrs took a while too.  I don't know how long.  I let it run overnight & it was done by the morning.

I still have a lot to figure out, so far, I'm thrilled.

Told you they are nice pcs. Glad the software works well.

$135.  I assume part of what I paid for was the form factor.  It's the OptiPlex Micro, so it's quite small. (OptiPlex.  What a stupid name.  That's so very "Dell")


It's been running now for 48 hours.  Almost totally silent, and it runs pretty cool.  I have to put my ear up against it to hear even the slightest hum.  And my internet is faster than I thought.  I should have the whole blockchain synced up by the end of the night.

I've been pleasantly surprised by how easy Start9 was to set up.

I don't know how much you paid for this configuration, but I found similar configuration below $100 locally but with smaller SSD, so it's not a bad price, but I am not sure it is going to be totally silent.
Just make sure to keep it in good ventilated space and you should be fine.

Small tip:
It's easy to remove all that residue (and stickers) with WD-40 spray

Here's what I bought:
DELL OptiPlex 5050 Micro.
Intel Core i5-7600T, 16 GB DDR4, 256 GB SSD

It took forever to ship, but hey, it's here and all is well.  It came with a mouse and a pretty decent keyboard, which was a nice surprise.

I've already got Start9 installed & Bitcoin Core is syncing.  I assume it'll take a week.  My internet isn't particularly fast since the most demanding thing I do online is stream HD movies.

I had no issues at all with setting up an external 2 TB SSD for storage.  Start9 asked where I wanted to store everything & I chose the external drive.  Easy peasy.

Based on how easy it was to get this sucker up and running, I regret not doing this a year ago.  Ah well!  Better late than never.

As a Mac guy, I can't believe that in the year 2024, people still tolerate buying PCs that come with stickers on them.  I tried peeling off that stupid Intel Inside sticker but there's still some residual glue goo.  Eh, I'll get around to removing that later.

Anyway...  so far, so good!

Thanks for sharing your experiment. Anyway, total 4.58TB write is insane. It would cut significant lifespan of cheap/low-end SSD, especially when i see few people claim they use their old or unused SSD.

I recently did an IBD on a laptop with 8 GB RAM:

Because of the lack of RAM, the IBD wrote 4.58 TB to disk. So it's possible, but comes at a price.

To be exact, it's because rising total UTXO which doesn't fit even on Raspberry Pi 4 8GB variant which heavily affect IBD (initial block download). See https://community.start9.com/t/raspberry-pi-no-longer-recommended-for-use-with-bitcoin-stack/779. Although after IBD, Raspberry Pi 4 is still fine to run a node.

It's relatively recent.  Older versions of their docs don't have it, but they now have a warning that they're out of date and they link to the version with it.

I don't know when this warning was written but it's probably related with Rpi's low ram and processing power, or for older devices that are usually weaker.
I know several people who managed to run bitcoin nodes on Rpi4 without any issues, but things could change recently.
Anyway, whenever you want to buy something cheap you know that you will have to make some compromises, whatever device you choose.

Some interesting Rpi alternatives to consider:
https://beebom.com/best-raspberry-pi-4-alternatives/

The dell black box. (Dell PC 5000)

https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-support/product/embedded-box-pc-5000/docs

(Used in police cars,fedex trucks and more)

pn:N01PC

I ran a node on one for almost 3 years.

If you like tinkering in general this things a beast.

the case is a giant heatsink. no fans.

GPIO 8 pin
GPIO
4 serial ports.
lots of uses.

Im sure the system will outlast whatever HDD you slap in it.

Start9 says not to use it on a Raspberry Pi for Bitcoin though.

From the Start9 online docs:

If you want totally silent solution than I would recommend checking out Raspberry Pi400 that has built in mini keyboard.
You can easily add external SSD drive or ultra fast SD card, it works very good with both.
Regular Raspberry Pi 4 and 5 device can also be used and modified to work in silent mode.

Intel NUC devices are a good silent alternative and they can be found used for a good price, just make sure to have strong enough processor and ram memory.
There are also open source laptops that work in similar way like raspberry pi, they are have passive cooling, but they are much more expensive.

yeah but it will almost never pull that.

especially since he has an external ssd  doing more heavy lifting.

at the op that unit is pretty good for that price.

let us know now how the setup works.

That mini PC looks good. Anyway, take note external storage isn't very reliable. In few cases, there's not enough power if you use multiple USB port at once which cause random disconnect. And if you use OS or package which setup almost everything with you, be careful it may use internal storage to store blockchain files by default.

I was going to add the i5-7600T's TDP is 35W. For low power, I prefer processors with a TDP as low as possible.

I recently measured one of my Celeron laptops, it consumes <4W idle. I'm still looking for a few more spare laptops, they're cheap and very convenient to have around for projects. It beats a VM

I definitely don't have serious money.  I'm spending every dollar on sats, especially before the halving.

I'm leaning toward going with this:
DELL OptiPlex 5050 Micro Form Factor
(Intel Core i5-7600T, 16 GB DDR4, 256 GB SSD)
$135

And like I said, I already have a USB external 2 TB SSD that I'll use for storage.

EDIT:  I bought it.  This should be a fun project.

no not on these units.  just get a 1 tb ssd and clone it to an external  2tb hdd for an emergency backup.

Keep the 2 tb hdd off line.


use something like this

https://www.amazon.com/GLOTRENDS-Protection-Resistant-Photography-B86/dp/B01LXO6HLG/ref=sr_1_4?


If you have serious money or really important data make 2 or 3 back ups.

Even if it isn't "better," that's my plan.  I always keep media and large storage on an external drive.  It's so much easier for future upgrades.  I already have a spare external 2TB SSD, so a 250 GB internal SSD should be more than enough.

All tiny PCs have these characteristics, they are small and quiet. I would follow up on a philipma, at least an i5 of the sixth generation (if the budget allows, look at younger ones as well). And considering that the computer will work 24/7, power consumption is worth paying attention to.


Isn't it better to have one SSD for OS and another for data? For example 128GB + 1TB

dell
hp
Lenovo

all make a Mac mini sized unit.

give me a minute I will find links

-------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334266133509?  this has a 128gb ssd and 8gb ram easy peasy to upgrade it is 90 usd

https://www.ebay.com/itm/186174116413?  this has an i7 and 16gb ram.  you need to upgrade the 512gb ssd it is 289



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this one is 311 usd with an i7 7700 16gb ram and 1 tb ssd it is a Lenovo you need to pick options





https://www.ebay.com/itm/235398515461?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



this one has 16gb and a 128gb ssd windows 10 pro only 149

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165928451002?



so get an i5 or i7 at least sixth gen. cpu  16gb ram and a 1tb ssd




so if you do not want to open the gear to mod you can get the Lenovo for $311


shop around I just picked them by searching on eBay

Lenovo tiny
dell optiplex
hp tiny

you will find hundreds of them.

you can get a good unit for under 350 even less if you know how to mod.

I want to run my own node and block explorer and am planning on running Start9 (mostly to make the block explorer part easy).  I'd like to go reasonably cheap for this PC since it's for a personal project (the block explorer will only be available on my wifi network at home), and also because I'm spending every dollar I can spare on buying Bitcoin of course

I'm a Mac guy, so I'm not familiar with PCs at all.  I could use your advice.  I own a few Raspberry Pi 3Bs for home automation, but Start9 docs recommend against using a Pi for a Bitcoin node, and mine are old anyway, so I'd need a new device for this project.  So, I assume I'm looking for a mini PC to run Start9.

I'm looking for:

Low power consumption.
Small is better, since I'll probably be stashing it out of sight.
Headless.
Silent.
SSD, not HD.  I'll probably use an external SSD for the node storage.
What else do I need?

Any other advice?

EDITED to add:  I'd rather not have to mod the PC at all.  I'm a Mac guy, so many of the PC terms are gibberish to me.