Topic: China is able to do 50%+1% attack. It means, China dominating the crypto's. Or? (Read 634 times)

Only question is - WHICH wealth? Wealth in Yuan? in dollar? in ETH? in BTC? in GOLD?

Risk means for me - a risk. It can be happen. Nobody calculating with it, I see also... ... ... What an amount of wealth here just tends into a black hole. I am wonder.

Just maybe, it's a risk, but it won't happen. Miners make a living by mining Bitcoin, If they collude with each other to attack the Bitcoin network, it also means that they accept to crush their rice bowl. Not a single fool comes to see what he has created, crumbling.

What are You think about quantum computing resist algo's as i.e. the protocol of IOTA? >;DO=

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56759100

While a 50%+1 attack is definitely something to be wary of, especially from a country like China, I wouldn't be so concerned about a quantum computing attack. It used to be something I considered and it might have put me off Bitcoin for a while, but once computing technology gets to that stage then all encryption will be rendered meaningless. At least until some sort of quantum encryption can be used to counter it, if such a thing were even possible. All banking institutions would be vulnerable to attack and the very bedrock institutions that we all rely on would be rendered defenseless against such quantum computing attacks - there would be no safe harbor so bitcoin theoretically should not suffer any more or less than other places used to construct transactions.

We was before the pandemic... It is possible for miners to move away from China, other countries, ... just NOW?

Any opinion about my post on the face?
https://www.facebook.com/vortexledger/posts/947582198992631

Through army is it possible to constrain every miner to do, what the state wants. Simple.

I meant to say "not one company" but it looks like you understood it despite that mistake.
Ok fine, governments say jump, companies jump, but how would the government coordinate a 51% attack? How would the government keep such a big operation involving thousands of people a secret? Many miners would rather sell everything and go out of business before the attack is executed than participate in it and lose everything anyway.
I just don't see something like that working out, especially now after the recent news from China.

Who is China?  The biggest country? I dont think China have one single miner. But lest say tomorrow China buys tons of ASIC miners. What they will do then? Cheat people out of their Bitcoins. They will buy grain from someone and pay with Bitcoin and then revers transactions back? They will be thefts? That is what you believe China is? A country with 4000 years tradition will now suddenly start stealing peoples money? If Chian want to rob people they can do it without Bitcoin mining farms. They can steal any way they want.



Goggle have, I dont even know, a 40 qubit computer? 40 qubit computer cant break Bitcoin algorithm. You need 267 qubit computer for that. I dont understand why is that so hard to understand for some. It wil take at least 10 years that Bitcoin will be forced to just in case change algo.

Even if the successfully destroy BTC using that quantum computing, they wouldn't be able to destroy blockchain. It would be pointless to destroy this technology and bitcoin because there are already forks. Anyone in fact everyone can create their own coin if they wanted to and will still have intrinsic value if we try to reboot and again start fresh with quantum resistance.

This can be called "state capitalism", where you need to closely collaborate with government (or simply be a member of a party) in order for your business to grow/operate.

So much FUD by OP. NOt only that China can do a 51% attack but also that Google will use quantum computer against us. This is really too much for me to handle.

Like it was said by some people China is not one company. It doesn't own private bitcoin mines and even those mines aren't cooperating and will not cooperate because not everyone wants to put the network at risk. Some of these miners hold Bitcoin and a 51% attack would make them lose money. This is how decentralized network works. None of the participants have enough power to damage it and all participants aim to protect their own interest, which may differ, making them all willingly or unwillingly work for the system, not against it.

China doesn't own 51% hashrate, it belongs to the mining pools which have left the country when the government crackdown bitcoin, ban exchanges and miners.
And those mining pools aggregate consists of miners come from various countries joining the mining pool.
Furthermore, China doesn't own the majority of nodes that support the bitcoin network. The U.S. is leading with 25.88% and China ranks 8th with just 3.26%.
Maybe that is the reason the Chinese government scraps plan to ban cryptocurrency mining.

Source

You do not understand how the protocol adjust the difficulty when massive amounts of hashing power are introduced. The difficulty will simply go up and it will become a lot harder for people with powerful computers to compete with massive mining farms.  

Also, even if Quantum computing are introduced, stronger encryption will be implemented to protect people's coins. There are stronger encryption out there already, but it was not practical at the time to use it, because there were nothing strong enough to decrypt it.

Remember, Bitcoin is a piece of software and software can be changed to adopt to the changing needs or threats to it's users.

From an economic perspective, a 50%+ attack (or double-spending attack) is not feasible because miners need to invest in mining equipment, buildings, power facilities, etc. These investments are way more expensive than the profit they will get from such attacks (double spend). They are thinking long term, just like what Satoshi said in the whitepaper. Hence, Google et al., would choose to secure the network instead of ruining their investment.

If the attackers split the network by changing the rules, other honest miners will keep extending the honest chain. Then you will have "Forked BTC" and "Honest BTC." The honest BTC will prevail for sure.

Last, quantum computing is still far-far away from being used in cryptography. Researchers need to deal with more qubits and its error rate. QC is more like an analog device at the moment with too much noise.

Just because they can (and they can't) doesn't mean they are capable of . Remember the segwit period for example, almost all of china's miners got together and turned their pools into non-segwit approach but they failed, they made a hard fork that was bitcoin cash in the end but they couldn't change bitcoin itself hence why we can use segwit right now for cheaper.

It means miners can't make as much money as they used to but it means everyone else will be able to do transactions for cheaper and faster. Do you really think all those miners accepted this? Of course, not they were against it but since they didn't had the majority they couldn't. Sometimes when you need to change the blockchain from one to another you need a lot more than just 50+1% so china still doesn't have the control.

What are you think, what is a 50% + 1% attack?

A miner is able to create extra bitcoins, or decide which transactions will be done - maybe invalid transactions also.
What are you think, what value will 50000 Bitcoin have, if the united Chinese miners will be doing such things? I think 50000 BTC will have the same value in dollar, as 500000 BTC ...
What a dominance will have one or more whale then? I think, the same.
0 dollar economical power...

Basically what they can have is a huge volume of the hashing power that the cryptocurrency needs in order to process transactions. But in order to dominate bitcoin, they need to have huge control over it. That control would not be considered to be the hash power, but the power of whales to manipulate bitcoin. As the main reason why bitcoin is known worldwide is its capability to produce huge market price. And being able to control that huge market price will be classified as the dominance.

Yes, I see greed. And I will do also, if the bitcoins will have 0 value. I started a diskussion about it - at right time, I think. If you have only greeds, then please, my answer is here:  

I read  page 1 and 2 and up until now there is no answer to this.

Okay, your point is about google taking the larger power of mining and then China? So 50-50 to them then there will no more miners that could do it?
So are you saying they have the control with bitcoin afterwards because of that capability?

Look at your surrounding, specially here in bitcointalk forum. Dont you see  greed?
I don't think they will be focused on mining bitcoin. They will create their own and try to bring down bitcoin. That is what I see which could happen in the future. But due to the support of the people bitcoin might stay alive even if brought down by those companies.

If I have that futuristic technology then forget about bitcoin. I will create something better.

Greencoin = every not PoW coins, as i.e. NXT or later Ardor, OByte, ...

Nope, you didn't!

More than 9? I would not use "sometime" for 9 years.

How's Greencoin doing?


And do you have any kind of proof for this apart usual China owns bitcoin bs?

I think the country of China only has a variety of technologies and many citizens who already know bitcoin and many people who know how to buy bitcoin even in China also have a very large and very large bitcoin mining company so that it can make the country of China able to control the conditions a little cryptocurrency market.

FYI

Google can not attack encryption at this moment. The quantum supremacy they claimed is very niche and rather controversial. To really attack modern encryption (such as bitcoins) with a quantum computer you would need a quantum computer that is orders of magnitudes more powerful than what anyone currently has. I personally think we there is still decades of research and development necessary before we have to worry about QCs cracking encryption.

Google won't actually do something like this to be honest , Google is too secure to start creating plans like this , even if they publish such technology do you think the government and all would uninterrupted let them do whatever they want with this ?
If Bitcoins could be hacked using it then trust me ... Those low security governmental websites will also be at a high risk .
They won't simply let this go like this and not everyone would be able to afford it.

If indeed Google's claim about quantum supremacy is true, it is an achievement that deserves appreciation. It's just that in my opinion the potential of a quantum computer to threaten or break the encryption blockchain and bitcoin does not need to worry, because the blockchain can change its algorithm to be resistant to quantum supremacy. If it is feared that a quantum computer can mine bitcoin with its excess the chance is still fifty-fifty because it is not yet clearly known how the specifications of the quantum computer (It doesn't mean that quantum computer always has a big hash power and it's probably not worth it if the operating costs are greater than income).

With regard to China, we must be able to remember that the Chinese nation was a nation that used to like imitations but is now developing in addition to copying and modifying innovation. Other countries or outside China may be excited or booming with all kinds of technological innovations created by the West but in China, they don't have fangs, for example:

RenRen = China's Facebook
we chat = China's whats ap
Alibaba = China's Amazon
Baidu = China's google
QQ = China's Gmail
Weibo = China's Twitter
Youku = China's Youtube

For cryptocurrency technology, I think China has prepared it, of course, China's crypto. This is inseparable from China's foreign policy, namely one belt one road. This initiative is closely related to economic problems, the economy is synonymous with money. China has made a grand plan to become a world power, and this grand plan has been carried out long before other countries realize it.

We do not know for sure, how many bitcoins China has. Because before it was banned, China was one of the countries with the largest mining activity in the world and data from UNCTAd showed that the development and blockchain patents of 75% were concentrated in China and America. I think the amount of bitcoin owned by China is very large.

Please read the OP, and the thread thoroughly, I think, you don't understand, what a role can this new google's computer to get in the Bitcoin Network... We don't talking about Quantum resistance......
We talking about mining and dominance... Which country will get the dominance in crypto market, and how it is possible to avoid a such influence.

Facebook Libra has a big big issue (as Tether or Ripple has also) - I should explain: it was through Facebook centralized, dominated. It is a bug - but Mark don't send the parliament ( or me , me would be Bitcoin better ) the 10000 dollars / bug, as he promised, I know

If I would be in place of Mark - I replace Libra with XRP simple - and then I ask the Parliament: "Well, I did. I choosed an other crypto from existing Market. Many thanks for support.". Maybe it needs some clever negotiation with XRP, but I would like to see, what Parliament doing after a such step and answer...

Or QTUM. QTUM is from Singapore. Xapo is also from Singapore AND in the community of Libra in. QTUM a real P2P system - worldwide used, supported...

Google could not. Look no further, Facebook's Libra coin is now suffocated by parliament and it seems to have stopped working.
things that create manipulation only bring about benefits in the first time, but when the organization grows, the government cannot control it, the gangster power will emerge. That is why the US government must bind Libra coin so much.

"I use only my brain" = it is only my opinion, I would like to diskuss it...
Please don't hesitate to ask, if you don't understand, what I wrote. I am not raw English, and I do mistakes, many, I know.

Of course, mining will working perfectly - also with this new kind of computers, and maybe google (and other US firms) able to avoid China's dominance later...
I have hopes for climate change also, but we should use our brain and our time to do things against it - to avoid or constrain it...
Simple "don't worry, be happy" don't helps in both cases.


You will be better understand, what the Chinese State would like to do, if you seeing China as a heavy type of a state monopoly capitalism. It isn't "communism", I know. I lived in east Europa before 1989... It wasn't a "communist dictatorship", it was a kind of state monopoly capitalism - with a kind of mafia above. It means - the Chinese business-mans, living in other countries, will be - mostly - a tool to reach and control that state also - through a such well centralized organization and a such good tool as a crypto ( a Chinese one ).


Please read the OP, and the thread thoroughly, I think, you don't understand, what a role can this new google's computer to get in the Bitcoin Network... We don't talking about Quantum resistance......
We talking about mining and dominance... Which country will get it.

I think it's just FUD. many people say Google will release a quantum super computer but until now it hasn't been realized. and I think the bitcoin developers have thought about this. so if one day this quantum computer has been released bitcoin already has a more sophisticated and powerful security system so it is not easily broken into by this quantum computer. so I think we don't need to worry.

Such threats are already spreading by words. Still it is under development they haven't tested it yet. But if it were to be true then it would be easy for them to cracked down Bitcoin to pieces and it would make sense that they could quantum computers could dominate in the market. However China are opposing Bitcoin I don't think they would go battle head on over that as if they were also creating their own crypto currency.

When it says bitcoin dominance doesn't mean that a country or state is attacking it. Real market dominance can be obtained by how many people are contributing to the development of it, not by hash rate and control. But with a great technology they can bring to the world.

For me, china isn't dominating the market yet, they need to contribute first.

One country might be able to get all the hashing power but that doesn't necessarily equate to them being one collective entity. Most Chinese businessmen would still think of profits over any other things any day, though some of them might even submit to the orders of the higher echelons but for the most part, the former becomes true. Sure, they have the most hashing power, but still the tech is way too crude to perform harsh attacks that could disintegrate bitcoin at its core.

I agree that most miners are from China and this because there are the miners created and also price of electricity, but i think they will never do a 50+1% attack because will only cause panic and will only make price go low and will affect them on long time.

I immediately regret my decision to post on this thread. Since you only use your brain, you don't need discussion.
Mining is working perfectly, as intended. "If you don't believe it or...."

Also, don't worry about climate change

The biggest farms are in China. They had already more as 50% many years before... I think, this portion is more at this time.
China isn't a democracy - it is simple - if the state wanted to get some firms under the control of China army - to get they.
But China want to tax bitcoin mining at this time.
The Market was happy.
Then we heard, China want to create a coin for China (to support Chinese interest around our World...). We told - ahhhhh it is only an Altcoin. Not more.
But we know, how difficult to act against a such economy.
China said later - the future is for the crypto-technologies...
The Market was very happy. (+40% in some hours...)

But, if the Chinese coin ready to start, China will be able through (the well detected <= because the tax) miners to act agains Bitcoin Network, and able to support his "Altcoin" in the whole World.
An attack a such Network at this time not a difficult act - it is nearly impossible.

Yes, I know - it is only my opinion at this time (not any article about it at Cointelegraph i.e.) - but for me seems this "simple" steps as a risk already.


I should say - I use only my brain - and I have more worry against the change in the climate of our world. Please see the threads in the OP
Maybe a change in the art of mining a good thing then.

What part of your post shows evidence of China being able to do a 51% attack, on bitcoin nonetheless? Quantum computers do not exist in this day and age and even Google's claim to have one has been proven to be lacking and not really useful.

Besides, China is different from Chinese miners (who are not necessarily unified as a single team), any news saying China can do 51% is FUD.

Having more than 50% of the hash rate is like being the strongest man alive. It doesn't mean that he will punch you in the face just because he can.

Source: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

As for Quantum thing, it's still nowhere near ready for mentioned purposes.

Don't worry too much

China can do it only in theory. This power is going from different companies and this is really hard to unite them all

No, this is incorrect. They are able to solve a program fairly fast, but this is a singular algorithm, and there have been cases of over computers being modified to try and beat the record, and it only took them 10x the amount of time... So much for a super-computer.

If Google does ever showcase itself brute-casing something like a private key, or even using their GPU/CPU to mine bitcoin or other currencies, and it's a drastic improvement (we'd need to be talking about 1000x the efficiency of computers nowadays for it to be a threat), then we can panic.

If China is ready with his official coin or token or ... (a new economy model for China's World...) then I know somebody to have the possibility and interest to do it.
Maybe google can rescue before the Bitcoin Network - with this new kind of computer. Maybe.

Right, that's fast as hell but still not fast enough to crack bitcoin.  But all concerns about crypto aside, I do hope quantum computing will be put to good use in science and that it won't be used as some sort of weapon against people as gov't always seem to do when new tech is developed.

The mining aspect of this is interesting and isn't something I thought of initially when I heard about it.  Could it really be used to mine bitcoin more efficiently?  I don't really understand quantum computing but I haven't heard anything about that on the forum, just claims that it can't be used to hack bitcoin wallets.

I'm not sure what China has to do with all of this, but I don't think anyone is going to be doing a 51% attack any time soon.  It is in no one's best interest to do that.

There is a battle going on with some of the major technology companies to crack the quantum computing and google is just one of the many companies that are trying to achieve it and the expense is really high and there are no plans by any of these companies to have a detour on their program and focus on something else, if a chip manufacturing company focus on these then we can have a speculation to debate.

China has been building it's own quantum computers independently (maybe they get some from their spies). And we still don't know how effective are quantum computers in mining. They might not be as efficient miners as ASIC miners as their manufacturing and operational cost would be huge.
Bitcoin network is safe for at least the next decade.

Sure (( and maybe China has some clones already )). It means money against this hot 'No' Quantum Computer... And business is business. Maybe IBM joins also. Or some firms in EU, in England, ...
It means money (a lot) as it supported the development of GPU's, then AISC's - through us. KncMiner was first on the ASIC Market with a brand new technology!
I bought one piece of they masterwork.

You don't understand me. Maybe you not read everything in the first post.
I think, google can change the software in this new kind of computer - and mine a little on the Bitcoin Network, to show, what a kind of efficiency this new computer has.
Maybe with some similar computer can google (alone or with partners) decrease the mining power of China below 50% ... And then... As I wrote:

Pretty far. Besides, I would seriously doubt google would use it in crypto instead of qol changes first. They would, in my opinion, prioritize possible improvements in their systems and the like, and that would take quite a bit of time since they are pretty huge. Only then would they concentrate on using quantum supremacy towards other things. Plus, it is still very far. It may be able to crack crypted texts, but it still is far in the future. Plus, the current system is about the quantity of miners and that is why China is currently dominating over it, since they have the quality and quantity to dominate the scene. And if they ever see improvements in quality of others, a simple case of paying money for it should be able to resolve it. If google ever releases quantum tech that could help crypto, China would be one of its buyers.

Google achieved quantum supremacy in an artificial problem tailored specially for quantum computers, and that's it. They don't have quantum supremacy in any sort of practical applications, and they are light years away from it. People who have understanding of crypto just yawned at it, because at this moment it doesn't change anything. Google isn't going to release a quantum miner anytime soon.

/thread

Quantum computing is still far from development and even if it did become successful, I don't think cryptography would be its first use cases. There are a lot more than crypto, such as simulations for various use cases like space exploration. And even when it got to touch cryptography, I think they would focus first on strengthening current methodologies in data security over the network, and not on just mining bitcoin which they deem to be nothing but speculative shady asset controlled by no one.

Their quantum supremacy is simply just words... No company has yet been able to make a computer that's able to break huge amounts of encryption via brute force.

The supercomputer Google released is something that is probably 100 times faster then our fastest PC's, but it's nothing insanely fast, and they wouldn't be showing it off if it was.

Don't worry, we won't see anything happen in the next 10 years or so, your talking about technology that literally won't be invented until decades in the future.

Quantum supremacy is but words for now. And although it is a possibility that is coming nearer in reality, there is nothing to be afraid of. This is only a big deal for FUD spreader and their victims. Quantum technology in computers is not monopolized by Google. The geniuses in the crypto world has already anticipated it long before it will even hit the market. In fact, steps have been done both in planning and in actual development that will somehow address this Quantum hype and FUD.

I criticize Bitcoin since 2011...
I "predicted" our situation today, I think. ((I explained, what is wrong in the system, and I told, what will be done in the future - today...))
Google has quantum supremacy.
It isn't enough to crack the encription of bitcoin network, but maybe enough to mine Bitcoin with more power as other technologies before...
Will google publish a such technology? Or google will get the dominance from china over the Bitcoin Network?
What are you thinking?