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Topic: Classic or Core? Which one is better? - page 2. (Read 4868 times)

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 06:24:11 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

if they have a shitty internet connection whats stopping them from creating a smaller block so they can propagate that block faster?

if they have shitty internet it only incentives them further to create smaller blocks.

you've unintentionally drove my point home?

I have not. At all. Not even sure what you're referring to with that.

"A shitty internet connection" is not the issue. Rather inter-regional internet infrastructure is, which is out of the control of miners.

You're suggesting that the lack of any block size limit would result in a single cohesive ledger (Bitcoin) vs multiple ledgers. I assert that without a hard limit, miners would disagree on the block size that they are willing to relay. The only possible result of that is a chain fork because of incompatible rules.

a miner with poor inter-regional internet infrastructure need simply mine a block in which contains less data, as to achieve a higher proportion rate.

better?

That doesn't address the assertion that larger blocks contribute to miner centralization. Mining viability over time (due to subsidy halvings) depends on fees becoming a greater share of block rewards. You're then putting some miners between a rock and a hard place: 1) increase orphan rate or 2) decrease block reward. Either way, their viability is threatened, and this disproportionately affects smaller miners/pools, thus contributing to miner centralization.

See the link I posted: The group of smaller miners loses a % of relative income. If they publish larger blocks, their loss percentage goes up slightly further.

Perhaps more important: If a group of miners is willing to relay and build on a 1GB block, it doesn't follow that the rest of the network is willing to. Are we supposed to trust miners never to disagree? Sorry, but no thanks. I prefer that node software makes disagreement (hard forking) impossible.

you've convinced me. in order to make life fair we need rules which level the playing field.

decentralization is the key to victory, if a there are no miners in africa bitcoin will fail!
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 06:18:54 PM
That are big misconceptions, no rational miner is going to continue working on smaller chain, because longest chain = Bitcoin.

Again, you don't understand the consensus mechanism. Of course a rational miner will continue working on a smaller chain if the longer chain violates his consensus rules.

Even today there can be many forked ledgers (miners building on top of smaller chains), but there is little reason to do it thats why you dont see it today and wont see it in future when the hard limit is removed

Actually, the limit specifically prevents any disagreement over what constitutes a valid block in regards to size. Without that limit, the entire network must trust all miners to never disagree on the size of blocks they are willing to validate and relay.

Bitcoin is built on the premise that actors will act rationally. Its functionality should not depend on rational actors being correct. Rational actors are wrong all the time; consider all the companies that are constantly going bankrupt. Doesn't mean they were irrational; it means they were wrong.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 06:15:58 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

if they have a shitty internet connection whats stopping them from creating a smaller block so they can propagate that block faster?

if they have shitty internet it only incentives them further to create smaller blocks.

you've unintentionally drove my point home?

I have not. At all. Not even sure what you're referring to with that.

"A shitty internet connection" is not the issue. Rather inter-regional internet infrastructure is, which is out of the control of miners.

You're suggesting that the lack of any block size limit would result in a single cohesive ledger (Bitcoin) vs multiple ledgers. I assert that without a hard limit, miners would disagree on the block size that they are willing to relay. The only possible result of that is a chain fork because of incompatible rules.

a miner with poor inter-regional internet infrastructure need simply mine a block in which contains less data, as to achieve a higher proportion rate.

better?

That doesn't address the assertion that larger blocks contribute to miner centralization. Mining viability over time (due to subsidy halvings) depends on fees becoming a greater share of block rewards. You're then putting some miners between a rock and a hard place: 1) increase orphan rate or 2) decrease block reward. Either way, their viability is threatened, and this disproportionately affects smaller miners/pools, thus contributing to miner centralization.

See the link I posted: The group of smaller miners loses a % of relative income. If they publish larger blocks, their loss percentage goes up slightly further.

Perhaps more important: If a group of miners is willing to relay and build on a 1GB block, it doesn't follow that the rest of the network is willing to. Are we supposed to trust miners never to disagree? Sorry, but no thanks. I prefer that node software makes disagreement (hard forking) impossible.
sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
March 30, 2016, 06:09:38 PM
...and? What if this miner found this block first by timestamp, but some miners on the network refuse to build on it, and nodes refuse to relay it, due to its size? If there is no hard consensus rule, what is to stop miners and nodes setting local policies that reject blocks beyond certain criteria? In that case, how will they remain a network?

No, you fundamentally misunderstand how bitcoin works. Orphaning only accounts for the latency issues around relaying blocks to the network. It doesn't address the idea that nodes and miners may refuse to relay blocks beyond a certain size. If so, and some miners continue building on such blocks, we see chain forks. Likely we would have many, many forked ledgers instead of a single global ledger.


That are big misconceptions, no rational miner is going to continue working on smaller chain, because longest chain = Bitcoin. Even today there can be many forked ledgers (miners building on top of smaller chains), but there is little reason to do it thats why you dont see it today and wont see it in future when the hard limit is removed (it is beter to stop wasting electricity if you cant build on top of longest chain, unless you do some experimental pet project and dont care you mine worthless blocks others ignore).

Miners may refuse to relay blocks beyond a certain size, the same way as today they may refuse to build on top of block of certain block version number or any other reason they choose like included transaction with blacklisted coins. They dont do it because of selfish financial interest to be on longest chain + Bitcoin price
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 05:53:21 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

if they have a shitty internet connection whats stopping them from creating a smaller block so they can propagate that block faster?

if they have shitty internet it only incentives them further to create smaller blocks.

you've unintentionally drove my point home?

I have not. At all. Not even sure what you're referring to with that.

"A shitty internet connection" is not the issue. Rather inter-regional internet infrastructure is, which is out of the control of miners.

You're suggesting that the lack of any block size limit would result in a single cohesive ledger (Bitcoin) vs multiple ledgers. I assert that without a hard limit, miners would disagree on the block size that they are willing to relay. The only possible result of that is a chain fork because of incompatible rules.

a miner with poor inter-regional internet infrastructure need simply mine a block in which contains less data, as to achieve a higher proportion rate.

better?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 05:45:33 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

I see some have little faith in free market here. If miner create too big block, he will find it out after the block become orphaned.

...and? What if this miner found this block first by timestamp, but some miners on the network refuse to build on it, and nodes refuse to relay it, due to its size? If there is no hard consensus rule, what is to stop miners and nodes setting local policies that reject blocks beyond certain criteria? In that case, how will they remain a network?

So rational miner should be conservative with his block size when there is not hard limit.
So what prevent miners from forking networks? The same as today, risk of their blocks orphaned to other longest chain. No need for some hard limit Wink

No, you fundamentally misunderstand how bitcoin works. Orphaning only accounts for the latency issues around relaying blocks to the network. It doesn't address the idea that nodes and miners may refuse to relay blocks beyond a certain size. If so, and some miners continue building on such blocks, we see chain forks. Likely we would have many, many forked ledgers instead of a single global ledger.


sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
March 30, 2016, 05:39:53 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

I see some have little faith in free market here. If miner create too big block, he will find it out after the block become orphaned. So rational miner should be conservative with his block size when there is not hard limit.

So what prevent miners from forking networks? The same as today, risk of their blocks orphaned to other longest chain. No need for some hard limit Wink


That's fine. Nobody forces the majority to do anything. They can fork off onto an alternative network (altcoin) if they want.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but the majority will call longest chain as Bitcoin, and the forkers with smaller chain can call their pet project as they want.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 05:39:28 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

if they have a shitty internet connection whats stopping them from creating a smaller block so they can propagate that block faster?

if they have shitty internet it only incentives them further to create smaller blocks.

you've unintentionally drove my point home?

I have not. At all. Not even sure what you're referring to with that.

"A shitty internet connection" is not the issue. Rather inter-regional internet infrastructure is, which is out of the control of miners.

You're suggesting that the lack of any block size limit would result in a single cohesive ledger (Bitcoin) vs multiple ledgers. I assert that without a hard limit, miners would disagree on the block size that they are willing to relay. The only possible result of that is a chain fork because of incompatible rules.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 05:32:12 PM
Does he really says minority should rule majority instead Huh

If the majority cannot override the minority, it doesn't follow that the minority is ruling anyone.

The minority is just enforcing the rules that the entire network consented to; they aren't forcing anything on anyone. Changing the rules involves establishing a new consensus.

Consensus ie 100% does not exist in real world in most cases

In this case, 100% consensus exists. Hence why bitcoin = a single global ledger, rather than many disparate forks that disagree on the rules to enforce.

because small minority could block any change, thus rule the majority will to make change

That's fine. Nobody forces the majority to do anything. They can fork off onto an alternative network (altcoin) if they want.

so your wrong - no change is decission as well

No, you just have a questionable grasp of the English language. "No change = change" is an illogical non-argument and nobody remotely intelligent falls for that bullshit.

RBF wasn't controversial. Who complained about RBF besides a handful of muppets on r/btc and bitco.in?

Thats just your viewpoint, I see RBF controversial and many people do not like it to be enabled by default as well, if I remember F2Pool complained for being enabled by default, but Core developers used excuse it would be more complicated to change the documentation for this feature so preffer to leave it enabled by default instead.

Being enabled by default means nothing and addresses nothing I said. And stop spreading misinformation. See wangchun's ACK here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7386#discussion_r50386117

RBF is opt-in for users. That is a fact, and the only relevant one to your complaint here. In any case, I think you're confusing the real issue: whether a hard fork is contentious. Local node policies are very, very separate from the consensus rules of the network.

Quote from: sipa
This is not a consensus rule, so you're free to choose a different setting than the default here.

As I've said on the PR being linked to, I'm certainly willing to consider changing the default if there is controversy about it. But can someone at least point out one service or wallet that is not dealing with this correctly and has no plans to do so in the near future?

Quote from: gmaxwell
No, we avoid contentious consensus rule changes (e.g. hardforks); because no one can choose to avoid the consensus behavior of the network around them. Please don't mix up totally local behavior from the blockchain consensus rules.

Adding an option here-- even though there isn't any rational given to any of the opposition to restoring the original Bitcoin 0.1 functionality for people to choose to consequentially produce non-final transactions was already a purely political response to those desires. The continued attacks in spite of making that requested, but otherwise illogical, accommodation suggests that the complaining parties are not interested in a civilized dialog.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 05:21:54 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.

if they have a shitty internet connection whats stopping them from creating a smaller block so they can propagate that block faster?

if they have shitty internet it only incentives them further to create smaller blocks.

you've unintentionally drove my point home?
sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
March 30, 2016, 05:08:08 PM
Does he really says minority should rule majority instead Huh

If the majority cannot override the minority, it doesn't follow that the minority is ruling anyone.

The minority is just enforcing the rules that the entire network consented to; they aren't forcing anything on anyone. Changing the rules involves establishing a new consensus.


Consensus ie 100% does not exist in real world in most cases, thats why you choose majority as a mechanism for choosing consensus, sometimes over 50% is enought, but you might choose higher % up to a point where there would be no new consensus possible anymore because small minority could block any change, thus rule the majority will to make change (so your wrong - no change is decission as well, and only with majority will there can be no change to the rules).


RBF wasn't controversial. Who complained about RBF besides a handful of muppets on r/btc and bitco.in?

Thats just your viewpoint, I see RBF controversial and many people do not like it to be enabled by default as well, if I remember F2Pool complained for being RBF enabled by default, but Core developers used excuse it would be more complicated to change the documentation for this feature so preffer to leave RBF enabled by default instead.


In the PR discussion, 19 people commented (including people working on at least three different wallet brands) and 14 people explicitly ACKed the change, including at least one person who had been very outspoken in the past against full RBF. No clearly negative feedback was provided in the PR (or elsewhere that we are aware of) while the PR was open.

Your clearly talking about Core development process, where Core contributors vote. Much different from the whole Bitcoin ecosystems where hardly anyone follows Core internal development process.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 04:52:12 PM
Does he really says minority should rule majority instead Huh

If the majority cannot override the minority, it doesn't follow that the minority is ruling anyone.

The minority is just enforcing the rules that the entire network consented to; they aren't forcing anything on anyone. Changing the rules involves establishing a new consensus.

Now lets get back to the topic, Bitcoin Core 0.12 introduced very controversial feature RBF (Replace by Fee)

RBF wasn't controversial. Who complained about RBF besides a handful of muppets on r/btc and bitco.in?

It's a fully opt-in protocol, meaning that users who care about unconfirmed transactions can continue to not use RBF. RBF transactions are clearly flagged in the nSequence field, so developers don't really have an excuse for ignoring it. Many programs and platforms that trust unconfirmed transactions already regard low sequence numbered transactions as suspect and ignore them until they confirm.

Why, specifically, was it considered controversial?

Quote
Was the opt-in RBF pull request controversial?

Not in the slightest. After extensive informal discussion stemming back months, the PR was opened on October 22nd. It was subsequently discussed in at least four Bitcoin development weekly meetings (2015-11-05, 2015-11-12, 2015-11-19, and 2015-11-26).

In the PR discussion, 19 people commented (including people working on at least three different wallet brands) and 14 people explicitly ACKed the change, including at least one person who had been very outspoken in the past against full RBF. No clearly negative feedback was provided in the PR (or elsewhere that we are aware of) while the PR was open.
https://bitcoincore.org/en/faq/optin_rbf/
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 30, 2016, 04:48:56 PM
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big

The relay limitations of all miners are not equal. Orphan risk is unequally distributed based on these limitations, which threatens the viability of groups of miners controlling a minority of hash power = miner centralization risk. See Pieter Wuille's simulation: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_devlist/comments/3bsvm9/mining_centralization_pressure_from_nonuniform/

What defines "too big?" Without some hard limit that defines this, there is nothing to prevent miners from forking networks.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
March 30, 2016, 04:45:45 PM

Ah, the 2 month old tweets from Adam Back?  Huh
Anyone who mentions 1.1mb must love Adam Back and his rage quit brigade blah blah  Embarrassed

David R, I don't think 1.1mb would kill bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
March 30, 2016, 04:34:20 PM



Does he really says minority should rule majority instead Huh




Technical sollution to the problem like BIP109 is not politic, but given it was tweeted when BIP109 did not even exist can explain a lot, still claiming politic is bad yet his both tweets are just political is bit funny - not much thought put in the tweets in first place.


Now lets get back to the topic, Bitcoin Core 0.12 introduced very controversial feature RBF (Replace by Fee), and it was not disabled by default as one would imagine to be the norm for controversial feature. Thats the reason why we need more implementations and people flexible enought when some implementation misbehave - to get rid of development monopoly and finally start competetion between implementations.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
March 30, 2016, 03:54:27 PM
Would it kill us to just *announce* an intent to release a version with 2MB (or even just 1.1MB) block size limit?

Yes, it would kill Bitcoin to reward the whining of the rage-quit brigade.  Thanks for asking!





sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
March 30, 2016, 11:48:09 AM
Its more reasonable to assume that those still running old software either have no idea whats going on (uninformed) or dont care (uninterested). The uninformed and uninterested installed their software when there was no choice (ignoring XT here) to make.

It just shows Bitcoin is slowly moving from centralized development to decentralized one. Ideally there should be at least 3 popular implementations with no one having over 50% nodes or hashpower, this would mean finally real competetion and increased inovation for Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 11:26:36 AM
i'm not a classic or core supporter anymore i support Unlimited.  Grin
yeah me too,not interest of this debate because i'm not miner Grin but can you explain to me what definetly of Unlimited that support by you?
tell me the detail and dont tell me that was joke Cheesy
i like they're  "free the market free the blockchain" philosophy ( if that make any sense )
i believe there are significant incentives for miner not to create blocks that are TOO big, there no reason to limit anything.
also i think the work with thin blocks is awesome and proves to me they are serious devs.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
March 30, 2016, 11:22:32 AM
Classic or Core . Be same more or less

there nearly identical.
2MB HF is offered by both sides
only diff is its a year away with core
the only real difference with core and classic is philosophical.
classic want to keep block growth ahead of transactional demand to keep the fee market without an much of an artificial pressure.
we will have segwit and a second layer with classic too, but we'll keep the blockchain as frictionless money as well.
copper member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1528
No I dont escrow anymore.
March 30, 2016, 11:21:01 AM
Thanks, very interesting. Similar as with the nodes, if you remove those that have not made an active decision (not voted, not updated node software) core and classic are very close.
I would not label nodes that have not updated to "don't care". There could be plenty of reasons for one not to update in X amount of time. That being said, if you are still running 0.11.x you are in support of Core. If you weren't, you would change the software.

I wouldnt call support for classic barely existing.
I would, especially if you read analyses like this one: A date with Sybil.
Quote
808 nodes for a maximum of 213 supporters

Nodes are less important than hash power. You cant reasonably imply a choice for those that did not make one. Its more reasonable to assume that those still running old software either have no idea whats going on (uninformed) or dont care (uninterested). The uninformed and uninterested installed their software when there was no choice (ignoring XT here) to make.
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