ClearCoin: for safer bitcoin transactions

virtualfaqs

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Quote from: AmpEater on May 26, 2011, 08:24:33 AM

Clearcoin has failed to release my money to me. The seller released funds, the release date came and went, still nothing. No update to status page, still claiming I'll get my funds on the 25th. It's the 26th

My email was answered - "I'm on vacation in France, and will be checking email less frequently.".....great

Hey was this ever resolved?

Quick question. Gavin, I noticed you said there was no arbitration. I'm about to do a huge trade with someone who wants to use clearcoin. I'll be selling Western Union $ for BTC. If I send you a copy of the WU receipt (or the original if it comes down to it) will you make a decision that the WU was received and release the BTC to me or the most you can do is hold the BTC for 1 year if the BTC seller disappears.

AmpEater

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Clearcoin has failed to release my money to me. The seller released funds, the release date came and went, still nothing. No update to status page, still claiming I'll get my funds on the 25th. It's the 26th

My email was answered - "I'm on vacation in France, and will be checking email less frequently.".....great

Stephen Gornick

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Cool, ClearCoin in Polish.
http://clearcoin.appspot.com/pl

Any other languages that are (or will be) supported?

Gavin Andresen

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Chief Scientist

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on January 28, 2011, 09:02:59 PM

Does the payment, after I've released it from ClearCoin escrow, show the bitcoin address from my wallet as the origin? Or does ClearCoin simply send from its wallet balance and thus there's no direct link between my address when I sent the funds to escrow and the payment after it was released from escrow?

It sends it from the ClearCoin wallet. It doesn't do anything special to try to 'mix' coins, though, so if you send ClearCoin exactly 11 bitcoins and then release exactly 11 it is pretty likely the transaction history would be easy to figure out.

Which reminds me... I released a new version of ClearCoin this week that lets you release an arbitrary amount. So if you wanted to pay somebody 11 bitcoins but make it hard to figure out where the payment came from by looking at the transaction histories you could:

Fund the escrow account with, oh, I don't know, 20 bitcoins.
Release 11.
Let the escrow expire, and you'll be sent the leftover 9.

kiba

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gavinandresen used it to send payment to me. I am not sure if that count.

Stephen Gornick

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Does the payment, after I've released it from ClearCoin escrow, show the bitcoin address from my wallet as the origin? Or does ClearCoin simply send from its wallet balance and thus there's no direct link between my address when I sent the funds to escrow and the payment after it was released from escrow?

jimbobway

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This is great! The bitcoin community needed one and someone delivered. :-)

Stephen Gornick

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Quote from: Babylon on January 17, 2011, 01:21:29 PM

I just want to check and make sure people have had good experiences with these guys,.

Clearwing Software LLC is a Massachusetts corporation founded by Gavin Andresen.

Gavin is one of the Bitcoin project developers, and will continue to support its development and growth.
http://clearcoin.appspot.com/about

Quote from: Babylon on January 17, 2011, 01:21:29 PM

I haven't seen anyone post any good or bad.

[Edit]
As the seller in an escrowed transaction it worked perfectly for me.

Babylon

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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!

I just want to check and make sure people have had good experiences with these guys,. I haven't seen anyone post any good or bad.

nanotube

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Quote from: Stephen Gornick on December 20, 2010, 06:41:34 PM

What if I send the escrow payment from an e-wallet provider, ... MyBitcoin, for example.

If I fail to release the escrow amount to the counterparty, after the 30 days the refund goes back to MyBitcoin, ..., which would not make it to my account with them, correct?

when you set up your account, you can set the 'refund address' to whatever you want it to be.
and you can change it as many times as you like.

Stephen Gornick

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What if I send the escrow payment from an e-wallet provider, ... MyBitcoin, for example.

If I fail to release the escrow amount to the counterparty, after the 30 days the refund goes back to MyBitcoin, ..., which would not make it to my account with them, correct?

Stephen Gornick

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How would one merge adresses from old wallet into a new one?

MoonShadow

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Quote from: Stephen Gornick on December 11, 2010, 02:42:53 PM

Quote from: MoonShadow on December 08, 2010, 02:26:43 PM

I would say that three years is about the high end limit for such a thing, but one year should be long enough.

Will people still have their current wallet a year, or three from now?

Current client, no. But everyone should still have their past wallet.dat data intergrated into whatever current client that they use.

Stephen Gornick

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Quote from: MoonShadow on December 08, 2010, 02:26:43 PM

I would say that three years is about the high end limit for such a thing, but one year should be long enough.

Will people still have their current wallet a year, or three from now?

MoonShadow

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Quote from: ploum on December 08, 2010, 02:45:41 AM

I also think that there should be more risk on the buyer side. The one year is not really incentive as, well, I might have enough money to wait for it.

That really depends on so many factors that it's hard to judge. A double escrow could be limited far longer, because it would be rare that any conflict would last to the limit, but you don't want it to be indefinate either, because the site owner doesn't want to have to hunt down disgruntled clients should there be a need to close the site. I would say that three years is about the high end limit for such a thing, but one year should be long enough.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: ploum on December 08, 2010, 02:45:41 AM

Also, the seller might have a proof : the delivery receipt. When you receive a delivery, you have to open it in front of the deliverer. Else, it is assumed that the content of the box is what is written on it.

which is why it's difficult to completely remove the human element of it. When two parties agree to use such a service, they are ultimately putting trust into a human being. Most of even the conflicts will resolve out without intervention of the escrow site owner, as a sour deal will most often not be caused by an attempt at fraud but a misrepresentation/misunderstanding that will just end in the two parties agreeing to keep theirs and move on. Only the rarest of deals will be unresolvable without adjudication, but some will. The one year wait is a strong encentive for the two parties to work it out, even if they would prefer to just stick it to the other; which is part of why I think that a double escrow would be better, because otherwise the seller could get ticked and just refuse to release the buyer from the agreement until the year was up, as he has no real skin in the escrow itself.

ploum

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Quote from: caveden on December 07, 2010, 03:47:10 PM

I find it a bit dangerous to give the final decision to the buyer.... at least in retail, it's the seller who has a reputation to care for. Buyers have less to lose in cheating.

Not complaining about your site though, it's a good initiative.

exactly my opinion. I also think that there should be more risk on the buyer side. The one year is not really incentive as, well, I might have enough money to wait for it.

Also, the seller might have a proof : the delivery receipt. When you receive a delivery, you have to open it in front of the deliverer. Else, it is assumed that the content of the box is what is written on it.

Anyway, thanks Gavin. I was thinking about doing such a service myself but I hadn't the time to do it yet. Now, I don't need it anymore ;-)

MoonShadow

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It's a good start, but perhaps a better system is dual funding of escrow, whereing both parties contribute the full purchase price (plus half of any escrow fees), and then it takes the consent of both to release any of the funds to either party. This lays risk upon both parties until the transaction is completed to the satisfaction of both. If after a year (or some other long period) any conflict cannot be resolved, then the funds are released back to both parties. The risk to the buyer is exactly the same, but the near term capital risk to the seller is increased. In the interim, parties agree that the deposit can be used by the site for lending, which should more than cover the costs & annoyance of the site owner. The time period for frozen funds needs to be long enough that the time preferences of the currency is enough of a threat to strongly discourage cheating.

The problem that I see is that if the seller is a cheat, he has no incentive not to attempt to cheat even if he isn't likely to succeed under your system. However, not only would an honest seller have a greater incentive to complete the deal quickly, he would also be supporting his honest reputation by the willingness to risk locking up funds in a dispute.

Gavin Andresen

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Quote from: ptd on December 07, 2010, 03:52:23 PM

I hope you plan to offer an API for sellers.

Yes, although the first big feature on my ClearCoin TODO list is a reputation/feedback system.

Gavin Andresen

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Thanks for all the great feedback!

Maybe one way to think about ClearCoin is as a tool to help manage risk between buyer and seller.

If the buyer completely trusts the seller, then you don't need ClearCoin-- just send bitcoins directly.
If the seller completely trusts the buyer, then just send the product first.

Usually there's some level of trust/mistrust between buyer and seller. If you use ClearCoin in creative ways, you should be able to come up with a way of using ClearCoin that balances the risks to both buyers and sellers.

To take davout's example: The person paying could deposit 20% of the funds in a ClearCoin account, then immediately release that 20% as a "good faith payment". Then they deposit the other 80%.

That gives an 80/20 risk split. "Half now, half on delivery" type arrangements can be done the same way.

davidonpda: You can choose how long your coins will be tied up when you create the escrow account-- one month, six months, or a year. Of course, the longer they're held the more comfortable the person on the other side of the transaction will be.

PS to Vinnie: ClearWing Software is the company; ClearCoin is the service.

ptd

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I hope you plan to offer an API for sellers.

caveden

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I find it a bit dangerous to give the final decision to the buyer.... at least in retail, it's the seller who has a reputation to care for. Buyers have less to lose in cheating.

Not complaining about your site though, it's a good initiative.

ptd

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Quote from: mtgox on December 07, 2010, 03:04:17 PM

Doesn't this just shift who is taking the risk?
A sends Item to B
B gets Item.
B claims he never got Item.
B gets his bitcoins back.

Am I missing something?

B has to wait a whole year first. The system is designed so that the only thing that one party can do is penalise the other, giving them an economic incentive to cooperate.

Maybe it should be that ClearCoin keeps the coins indefinitely?

mtgox

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Doesn't this just shift who is taking the risk?
A sends Item to B
B gets Item.
B claims he never got Item.
B gets his bitcoins back.

Am I missing something?

Vinnie

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Quote

Clearwing's Role

Clearwing cannot, and will not, mediate any disputes arising from the use of ClearCoin. If Alice claims she was cheated we will not refund her coins before the escrow expiration date. And if Bob claims he was cheated we will not give him the 100 bitcoins Alice deposited. Buyer, and seller, beware!

Do you mean Clearcoin?

I know paypal/ebay offers arbitration, and as controversial as it can be, it is a valuable, low cost service. Given that you aren't providing such services, would there be room down the road for a third party arbitrator to control the release of funds to Bob or back to Alice? Any service that is more convenient than going to court would be very appreciated by the community, I imagine.

Oh yeah, nice site!

davout

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1davout

You could also add the possibility to define how bitcoins get split in case of dispute.
Example : You could say that instead of a full chargeback in case of dispute you only do a 80% refund, merchant gets 20%

Gavin Andresen

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I'm happy to announce ClearCoin, my bitcoin escrow service:
https://clearcoin.appspot.com/

It makes bitcoin transactions safer by securely holding coins in escrow until both buyer and seller are satisfied.

If you are buying something using bitcoins, it makes the transaction much safer. If you are unsatisfied, you will eventually get your bitcoins refunded to you-- you can think of ClearCoin as do-it-yourself chargebacks.

If you are selling something using bitcoins, ClearCoin is safer than ad-hoc arrangements to reassure reluctant customers (like "I'll ship you the product if you promise to pay within 30 days" or "pay me half now and half on delivery").

I'm looking for questions, comments and feedback. You can give it a try for free-- transactions of less than 100 bitcoins are free, and you can setup an escrow account to yourself just to see how ClearCoin works.

Topic: ClearCoin: for safer bitcoin transactions (Read 5147 times)