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Topic: Climate change: EU unveils plan to end reliance on Russian gas (Read 130 times)

legendary
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The process is powered by electricity. Which can be derived from environmentally friendly or not so environmentally friendly sources. With the majority of production located inside china, notorious for its coal energy market. It is probably dirty. Solar panel production lacks the mobility and flexibility of bitcoin mining, which allows for easier targeting of renewables.

My point was that everything talks about how green are solar panels, but people avoid even thinking that they were built with dirty energy.
About Bitcoin mining I keep telling lately: the bigger mining farm owners have to get - sooner or later - to the point they generate the electricity they need. So we are on the same page.

There are youtubers and streamers who live on boats or in a van who power all of their mobile electrical needs on a handful of solar panels costing less than a playstation 5. For an offgrid setup, this cannot be beat. The weakest link in the chain are the batteries. Panels have a longevity of 10 to even 20 years. The lifespan of batteries is far shorter.

It depends on where that happens (probably in a very sunny area), it depends on what's their usual consumption, and I can guess that they won't show on youtube how "great" the things are after it has been cloudy/raining for a week Wink (because weather doesn't always go as you thought).
Batteries.. shortly: super weak, not friendly with the environment, short lifespan (it's in number of charging cycles, not years), you have to be super careful to not have them completely depleted for long.. no, they're a technology that needs badly to evolve.

Panels can be placed on roof tops unobtrusively. Development of panels designed to replace roof tiles, transparent and flexible solar panels intended to cover windows and other areas have been in planning stages for awhile now.

I don't know if this approach can get to the scale we would need to have solar panels in order to cover the needs for global industries' consumption. I fear it won't be enough, by far.

Coal is heavily subsidized by some nations.

Coal is also punished by many via green certificates.
And many countries also subsidize solar and wind generated electricity production.

One issue with nuclear energy is it centralizing control of energy generation under governments. Only nations can afford the high start up costs attached to nuclear power, which is why only governments control nuclear plants. And of course they always locate nuclear plants in high risk earthquake tsunami zones on a fault line. As that is where the cost cutting occurs -- building on cheap land in poor neighborhoods.

Some countries have earthquakes, some countries have hail and not much sun.. I believe that a well placed mix of all types may be the winning solution.

"Very well thought by politicians." When was the last time politicians "well thought" anything? I would be curious to know.

Touché Wink But no matter what, one can still hope Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441
I didn't do my homework, so I won't say anything about the content. But how much energy is needed to turn sand into those panels?
That's a clean energy, right? (/sarcasm)


The process is powered by electricity. Which can be derived from environmentally friendly or not so environmentally friendly sources. With the majority of production located inside china, notorious for its coal energy market. It is probably dirty. Solar panel production lacks the mobility and flexibility of bitcoin mining, which allows for easier targeting of renewables.

All energy sources require start up capital, man hours of production and a carbon footprint. All of these are generally measured in cost per watt produced.

There are youtubers and streamers who live on boats or in a van who power all of their mobile electrical needs on a handful of solar panels costing less than a playstation 5. For an offgrid setup, this cannot be beat. The weakest link in the chain are the batteries. Panels have a longevity of 10 to even 20 years. The lifespan of batteries is far shorter.


I'm not against solar power per se, but there are things to improve there, from the surface those panels take (surface that won't be used neither for crops, nor for forests!) to the countries actually work together in this.
I also fear that in the desert areas (probably more suitable for solar panels) the dust can be an issue.
And I fear that we can easily end up replacing Russian gas with electricity from Sudan or Chad (just some wild examples). What if that region becomes (even more) unstable?

All in all it's not a quick solution. I fear that for short-medium term coal and nuclear power plants need to be re-opened.
And the solar-energy plan has to be very well thought by politicians together with engineers, at least (after all, the current green deal was not well thought by politicians and gave Putin the window of opportunity for this crap).


Panels can be placed on roof tops unobtrusively. Development of panels designed to replace roof tiles, transparent and flexible solar panels intended to cover windows and other areas have been in planning stages for awhile now.

Instability is 100% guaranteed if inflation, supply chain and other negative economic issues persist.

Coal is heavily subsidized by some nations. One issue with nuclear energy is it centralizing control of energy generation under governments. Only nations can afford the high start up costs attached to nuclear power, which is why only governments control nuclear plants. And of course they always locate nuclear plants in high risk earthquake tsunami zones on a geological fault line. As that is where the cost cutting occurs -- building on cheap land in poor neighborhoods.

"Very well thought by politicians." When was the last time politicians "well thought" anything? I would be curious to know.
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!
Solar panels are created from refined silicon derived from sand and do not require rare earth minerals, noxious or hazardous chemicals AFAIK.

I didn't do my homework, so I won't say anything about the content. But how much energy is needed to turn sand into those panels?
That's a clean energy, right? (/sarcasm)

The manufacturing process is also not tied to unethical and immoral predatory business practices.

I wouldn't count on that.. because, you know... that's how China works.

Much of europe may not be near enough to the equator to provide full sunlight. But it is a common practice for nations and states to distribute and sell the surplus energy generated from wind and solar power, which could allow power to migrate and creep over distances.

For this inter-connection (wires, transformation stations and also common trading platforms!) may need to be done or improved.


I'm not against solar power per se, but there are things to improve there, from the surface those panels take (surface that won't be used neither for crops, nor for forests!) to the countries actually work together in this.
I also fear that in the desert areas (probably more suitable for solar panels) the dust can be an issue.
And I fear that we can easily end up replacing Russian gas with electricity from Sudan or Chad (just some wild examples). What if that region becomes (even more) unstable?

All in all it's not a quick solution. I fear that for short-medium term coal and nuclear power plants need to be re-opened.
And the solar-energy plan has to be very well thought by politicians together with engineers, at least (after all, the current green deal was not well thought by politicians and gave Putin the window of opportunity for this crap).
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441


I know many posters here love china. They will be gratified to know the lion's share of solar panels purchased under these plans will provide china with boosts in revenue.   Grin

Solar is not a lost cause IMO. The advent of megawatt hour capacity, grid tied, lithium batteries is necessary for effective large scale deployment. Elon Musk engineered a battery of this type in south australia around 2017.

Solar panels are created from refined silicon derived from sand and do not require rare earth minerals, noxious or hazardous chemicals AFAIK. The manufacturing process is also not tied to unethical and immoral predatory business practices. Much of europe may not be near enough to the equator to provide full sunlight. But it is a common practice for nations and states to distribute and sell the surplus energy generated from wind and solar power, which could allow power to migrate and creep over distances.

Off grid deployment is also an option. Although, I think to be effective would require better batteries which offer longer longevity than a typical lead acid composition.
full member
Activity: 616
Merit: 161

In the modern era, it has become normalized for avenues of dependency to be used as political leverage. Russia's reliance on SWIFT banking networks and global economic trade became sanctions which were used to control russia. Ukraine and the european union relying upon russia for gas were bargaining chips Putin used to gain political leverage on both.

Given how reliance and dependency can so easily be turned into leverage and methods of control. Perhaps a good design element of economies and finance is fundamentally to create structures that are as independent and stable as possible.

The united states has sought ways to reduce reliance on foreign oil for many years. Knowing that dependance could turn into political leverage later. The united states has also sought to reduce reliance on electronics, steel and 5G networks which might be produced in china for similar reasons.

However, it seems this movement has stalled of late. Should it receive more emphasis and attention? Or it is an outmoded and obsolete design paradigm better forgotten?

Globalization is a byproduct of growing capitalist tendencies. In that regard, people in a broader sense have become less dependent on their surroundings and more on some far away labor and resources that were alien to them as little green men on Mars. This is not much a cry for seclusionism as it is a chance to revitalize local communities and local industry. Also, maybe those types of changes could be more gentle to the environment than this current situation.
full member
Activity: 924
Merit: 148

The united states has sought ways to reduce reliance on foreign oil for many years. Knowing that dependance could turn into political leverage later. The united states has also sought to reduce reliance on electronics, steel and 5G networks which might be produced in china for similar reasons.


Usually, americans have these plans only for themselves. They were attempting to ban nord stream for years just in order to make their european partners buy more expensive american gas. In the modern world there is almost no way to be truly independent if you don't have resources on your own territory. otherwise, you need to rely on your suppliers.

Currently, EU don't have much choice. They can buy resources from Venezuela (country run by drug cartel) or Iran (country run by terrorists) but the Idea of significant expanding of the green energy is just not realistic.

Quote
The plan envisages ending reliance on all Russian fossil fuels "well before" 2030.

Whenever someone is asking for money right now in order to make something in 10 years then billions of $ would be wasted for nothing. This happens everywhere and every time.
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1723
They are saying this now because winter is pretty much over and they are assuming this invasion will be over and done with by the time Fall comes.

Like Elon Musk said in a tweet not too long ago, you just can’t make enough energy with renewable resources in a short time period. This solar panel idea will not work.

He said that those idle power plants need to be restarted because nuclear is perfect safe and he offered to fly down to one and eat some fruits grown in the region.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
Quote
The Commission document also says that renewable energy projects must be fast tracked and says there is huge potential in domestic rooftop solar power.

For god's sake!!!!! Not this bullshit again!
This is how Europe looks for solar potential:
https://www.hotspotenergy.com/DC-air-conditioner/europe-solar-hours.php
Most of Europe has an average of 4 hours of peak power during the day with the most populated areas in the low 3.

Second, this is how energy consumption peaks in the UK for example:



To further understand, the sunset in London was at 18:04 today, and we're already in March.
Basically, the peak hour for energy consumption in the residential sectors is always outside not of the peak solar production but outside the 25% range.
Also, you need heat during the night, not during the day, and that's what's needed in Europe to offset gas, and you won't be heating shit at night with solar panels.

Meanwhile:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-zhejiang-approves-new-11-bln-coal-fired-power-plant-2022-02-09/
and China has also reached 300 000 barrels per daily oil production from coal liquefaction.

hero member
Activity: 3038
Merit: 617

EU were pretty much hailing Greta Thunberg on every media that covers her call for renewable energy but only this time that they are really into taking out fossil fuel out the picture. Ice land has unique way of doing it I guess that country is a big model for usinv renewable energy.

But EV is not convincing really. Why bother so much about promoting it when they coukd cnvert their car's engine to use hydrogen. Water is cheaper.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1150
https://bitcoincleanup.com/
~ Perhaps a good design element of economies and finance is fundamentally to create structures that are as independent and stable as possible.
Yeah, ideally at least. China has been creating their own version of everything that's globally popular from social media platforms to payment systems. They are still top importers of natural resources like crude petroleum and petroleum gas but they are also finding ways to reduce that. I don't know if it's gonna happen in the future but there have been speculations of a joint oil and natural gas exploration with the Philippines in one area of the South China Sea.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441
Quote
As countries scramble to reduce their reliance on Russia's oil and gas in the wake of its invasion of Ukraine, few places are as exposed as the European Union.

The EU gets roughly 40% of its gas from Russia: According to figures from research group Transport & Environment, this dependence costs around $118m a day.

But moving with a speed few thought possible, the EU has now laid out a strategy that could cut reliance on this fuel source by two thirds within a year.

The REPowerEU plan aims to make Europe independent of Russian fossil fuels by 2030, but the initial efforts focus solely on gas.

The roadmap essentially proposes finding alternative supplies of gas in the next few months and boosting energy efficiency while doubling down on greener sources of power in the medium to longer term.

"It's hard, bloody hard," said EU Commission vice president Frans Timmermans.

"But it's possible if we're willing to go further and faster than we've done before."

The Commission's new proposals will make it a legal requirement for EU countries to ensure they have a minimum level of gas storage.

The aim is to have gas stocks at 90% of capacity by the Autumn, up from around 30% now.

Discussions are ongoing with existing gas suppliers including Norway, Algeria and Azerbaijan to boost flows.

The plan envisages ending reliance on all Russian fossil fuels "well before" 2030.

In the short term, gas should be sourced from the US and Africa while some countries may need to use more coal in the months ahead.

The EU also proposes a massive ramping up of renewables, biogas and hydrogen.

While carbon emissions may rise in the short term, the longer-term aim is a speedier transition to sustainable sources.

Another key focus in the coming months will be increased imports of Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) from suppliers including the US, Qatar and Australia.

But with Germany announcing plans for two new LNG terminals to increase supplies, some experts are worried that this could increase longer term dependency on fossil fuels.

"I think we're living in a tricky time, that there's so much political pressure to make these energy policy decisions," said Prof Paula Kivimaa from the Finnish Environment Institute and the University of Sussex.

"But we also must look beyond the next couple of years. If Germany builds new LNG infrastructure, there is a risk that it kind of locks it in for the foreseeable future."

As well as diversifying gas supplies, the Commission also believes the reliance on Russia will be eased as there are new renewable energy projects due to come online.

The EU says that countries should look to use the revenues raised from the Emissions Trading Scheme, which have almost doubled since 2020, to pay for these green energy sources.

But in the next few months, dirtier energy sources like coal may also be needed.

"There is some capacity from the power sector to generate more electricity with coal, and biofuels and there's also some new wind and solar products coming online," said Carlos Torres Diaz, head of gas and power markets research at analysts, Rystad Energy.

"So this could be a way of reducing some of the gas consumption as the power sector is the largest consumer of gas. This could be done within this year."

Frans Timmermans recognised that for some countries, it might make sense to switch to coal in the short term, but this could bring its own difficulties. Europe gets around 30% of its coal from Russia.

Alternative supplies from countries like South Africa and Columbia are not easily obtained.

Any switch to coal would also rapidly boost carbon emissions, a trend that's already well underway.

"We've already seen the emissions from coal increase last year, because of an increase of 18% in coal power generation," said Carlos Torres Diaz.

"So if this continues, during 2022, emissions will continue to rise, because coal power generation has more or less twice as much emissions as gas generation."

The Commission document also says that renewable energy projects must be fast tracked and says there is huge potential in domestic rooftop solar power.

Up to a quarter of the bloc's electricity consumption could be generated from panels on homes, farms and commercial building, the Commission says.

To reduce reliance on natural gas from whatever source, the Commission is also calling for a huge ramp up in biogas, which is made from agricultural and food waste.

With the extra investment in renewables, this could also lead to a significant increase in green hydrogen which can be made from wind and solar power.

The Commission is now calling for a quadrupling of hydrogen use by 2030.

"They would have gravitated towards green hydrogen over the next couple of decades, up to 2050, that sort of timescale," said Mike Foster, Chief Executive of the UK trade body Energy and Utilities Alliance.

"Actually, this crisis has brought it to a head, and you're probably going to get decisions made in the 2020s to bring it all forward at least 10 years."

There may well be some dissenting voices when EU leaders meet in Versailles later this week. They will all recognise that all these proposed changes will not come cheap.

Campaigners say that Europe's governments must ensure the very poorest are protected.

"In parallel with introducing sanctions a huge package of support must be deployed to ensure that they do not deepen Europe's ongoing energy poverty crisis and that no one has to choose between heating and eating," said Mike Davis from Global Witness, who are calling for a full oil and gas embargo on Russia.

"The need for everyone to be able to afford to heat their home must come before worries about economic growth."

The Commission will be encouraging countries to use a toolbox of measures to protect consumers, including windfall taxes on the profits of energy companies.

But while the poorest may receive some protection, in the short term there will be added pain on the price front.

"I don't see a simple way for to shield the consumers from the costs that all of this transition will imply," said Carlos Torres Diaz from Rystad.


https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-60664799


....


In the modern era, it has become normalized for avenues of dependency to be used as political leverage. Russia's reliance on SWIFT banking networks and global economic trade became sanctions which were used to control russia. Ukraine and the european union relying upon russia for gas were bargaining chips Putin used to gain political leverage on both.

Given how reliance and dependency can so easily be turned into leverage and methods of control. Perhaps a good design element of economies and finance is fundamentally to create structures that are as independent and stable as possible.

The united states has sought ways to reduce reliance on foreign oil for many years. Knowing that dependance could turn into political leverage later. The united states has also sought to reduce reliance on electronics, steel and 5G networks which might be produced in china for similar reasons.

However, it seems this movement has stalled of late. Should it receive more emphasis and attention? Or it is an outmoded and obsolete design paradigm better forgotten?
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