Topic: [CLOSED] [Group Buy + Group Hosting] 3.5TH/s Avalon6 + Platinum PSUs! (Read 7330 times)

Bitmain doesn't do volume pricing, so there's not much money to save in a group buy. You can actually contact GND/cryptoboreas directly if you want to host a few units, they will definitely beat lee's service.

Also, I forgot to lock this thread. Locked!

Possibility of a group buy with the same set up at GND, but with either batch 8, or 9 of the S7?  I am interested in lee's group buy, but the .10$/kWh is not near as good as what it seems Great North Data can offer.

I agree with that, but when I directly contacted Avalon they didn't want to directly deal with me--they told me to contact BlockC instead.

As for bitmain, their volume pricing is laughable. 100 units will give us a 0.5% discount.

I guess we'll have to wait until prices come down further.

If I was to make a comment, it would be that group buys need to deal directly with the manufacturer, NOT the distributor.
Manufacturer is much more flexible (within reason) as they know their bottom line.
Distributor is limited by the MSRP and needs to go back and forth.
At least this is how I see it and that's how it worked with a large and successful SP30 group buy.


GB in S7 at below listed price is impossible with miners quoted at $2200 (B6)-$3200 (B1, 3,5) on ebay.

the price is to way to high hence the lack of interest. Plus, I think more people wanted the avalon 6 as a home miner to mess with settings (underclock/undervolt..etc) and such not necessarily to be hosted for 3 months than try to ship home. A group buy of the S7 might be better.

It's a pity.

Hosting fees are really good and even PSU lease is an idea which should be tested, but units are way overpriced, much more so with BTC at current level.

At 450 USD per BTC it would have been very different (well, if Avalon does not increase their price at 2000 USD each).

spiccioli

Well then, the deadline's come and gone and we didn't get enough interest. Too bad, I was looking forward to picking up a few Avalon6 units for myself! Perhaps we can try again with a later batch.

Those who reserved units please PM me with the address you would like your deposits refunded to.

Hey, no hard feelings.

6 to go before we hit MOQ!

Payment done 

Sorry to say...I'm out....a bit to close to call...and if I had no miners at all I'd probably do this just for the 'gamble' and to play with an Avalon6 toy..but got 2 KNC Titan scrypt miners that likely will make more in LTC then in elec all the way thru 2016... so I'm gonna pass on this

anyway good luck...(officially in 'lurk' mode now)

Searing

Sounds like a decent deal not sure why everyone is slacking

I sent you a pm

Reservations close at Noon EST (UTC -5) on November 15th, so before then!

Then i want one avalon 6. btw, when i must send the 0.06 btc?

Just heard back from blockC.
A wire works, but they don't accept credit cards.

As a general comment: We've got just under 24 hours until we hit the deadline for reservations. If we don't hit the MOQ, we don't hit the MOQ, but if you are interested I suggest you make up your mind sooner rather than later!

I'm not sure, I've send blockc an email.

The lease is exactly that, a rental over a pre-determined period of time.  The initial price I have set for the 3-month contract is to take into account the cost of shipping the PSU's to the DC, any potential failures/down-time (with their return shipping), and having to return PSU's back to me if anyone/everyone decides to end their contract after the initial period.  If anyone intends to re-new at that point for another 3 month or longer contract, we can re-negotiate (in advance of the renewal date) a more favourable lease rate given shipping won't be required again.

I can't say for certain how much cheaper the renewal rate will be until I get an idea of failures and/or downtime, but it will absolutely not be going up. I am not looking at gouging anyone here, only trying to provide a more feasible solution to the ownership dilemma, while still covering my bases in case of short contracts/failures, since every failed PSU will need the unit returned to me and a new one shipped out to the DC as quickly as possible (while keeping extras on hand on top of that).

Another issue that could arise if the GB were to strictly purchase the PSU's, who would be responsible for replacing a failed unit outside of the initial purchase? Those members whose serial numbers are tied to it?  It's these types of problems I'm trying to help avoid.  Also, if you factor in having to sell off all the used PSU packages at the end of different hosting periods in order to distribute the assets fairly to those who are pulling out, you will take a substantial hit on the re-sale value, and have to pay shipping to somewhere in NA.  This seems to me to be a reasonably priced alternative to any of that.

In regards to a yearly/unlimited plan, that would be nice but I don't think anyone would be willing to get into a contract (and if they do, to keep that contract) longer than their hosting commitment for pretty obvious reasons.  I am fully willing to negotiate cheaper lease rates if anyone signs longer contracts with GND, but to my knowledge for the scope of this GB, only 3 month commitments are initially available.

Is possible to pay the miner (Blockc.co) by wire or credit card? I can pay all other costs in btc, btw...

If you guys have python installed on your computer you can run this python script I wrote. It takes the halving into account, accounts for faster blocktimes when the difficulty increases faster, and allows difficulty increases to change over time. Please don't trust random code on the internet! There's nothing malicious here, but you don't know that unless you can read it (so don't run it if you don't know what you're doing). Source is here:

"Plausible" difficulty scenario:
Super optimistic simulation for the hell of it:
"Difficulty Armageddon" simulation result, for the fun of it:
Interestingly, even in that pretty insane worst case scenario you'll still recover most of your initial investment, without even factoring in resale value.

Of course, if you want a better simulator it'll need to factor in the decline in hosting/PSU costs and the inevitable decrease of difficulty that will happen after the halving. However, I think my calculator is probably the most accurate one out there (its just not very easy to use).

It might be interesting coming up with software that calculates the difficulty based on a distribution of hardware by maintenance cost, factoring in how new hardware coming into the market forces old hardware off.

Great North Data isn't setting firm dates on when their hosting rates are going down.

Finksy doesn't want to promise a specific rate after three months, and I don't blame him at all for that. He wants to see the board/PSU failure rates before he requotes (remember, he's promised to cover failures out of his own pocket). The one thing he has guaranteed is that rates won't go up. I know it's frustrating, but we will have to wait and see on that front.

Very interested, but I think we definitely need to have a clearer picture about the fees after 3 months and also the PSU lease situation as mentioned by klondike_bar. How about a yearly plan or an unlimited plan ending when the miner is no longer profitable?

Thats if you want to diversify your money/risk, but if one or the other its entirely up to what you think the bitcoin price will do.

ps: the calculation posted brings up something important: the PSU lease. By assuming $10/month for the lease, after 8 months the [half-]PSU is completely paid for. does it become property of the leasee, or do the monthly lease fees become monthly rental fees? Either way, that adds about $60-80 to the above calculations ROI.

Avalon sadly is not Spondoolies or Bitmain when it comes to demand in the used miner market but depending on how successful you're with timing your exit (the 3-month contract renewals might complicate that) you should be able to get 20-30% back after 6 to 9 months.

Unfortunately that part is even less predictable than difficulty/exchange rate/etc. Depends a lot on what other hardware is available at that time.

My example is more like buy btc OR buy hardware go get btc. At least thats what I was trying to do.

you are not putting btc into it, but $$. Don't put in bitcoin that you already have.
these calculations never account for btc price change, and therefore cannot be trusted.
Start with $$, end up with $$ and put in various bitcoin price scenarios.
Besides, where in your calculations is the RESIDUAL value for the miner?
It was ~55% in BTC and 35% in $$ for SP30 after 12 mo and 53% of SP20 in $$ and astonishing 78% in btc after 10.5 mo (even with a high price paid for SP20 before discount to $400-500).

This i my ROI point of view:

This calculation is based on the fact that you have the money to pay for the miner package + hosting for a year, on hand, so that the alternative is to buy coins instead of mining gear for that amount of money.

Calc inputs:
Difficulty increment: 4%   #I seriously doubt it will be below 4% on average.
Pool fee: 2.5%         #Based on Ant PPS. Even if you are mining on 0% fee PPLNS. You can't expect more than 98% luck on average IMO.
Hashrate: 3500         #Based on 3650TH/s -4%. They have stated +/- 5%, lets try to be realistic.      
Hardware price: 1436$ (Ex. hosting/PSU rental)
Hardware price in BTC: 4.373
Watts: 1000
Start date: 11-30
Maintain cost/month: ~58$ #Based on 0.0661$/KWH aka hosting, and 10$/month PSU rental



Seems like you will never earn back the amount of BTC you put into this.
Miner cost + 1 year hosting = 1436 + 696 = 2132$ total invested.
If you buy coins today for that amount of money, this will give you 6.41 BTC.
If you buy gear, you pay 4.37 BTC up front, which you won't mine back. Unless you get cheaper hosting or $/KWH.

PS: There are 3 months of hosting at 0.047$/KW, that is not considered in this calc.
PS: Calc does not take halving into consideration. If you can't ROI without halving, you probably can't with it either

Am I missing something?
Better to buy coins than gear, in terms of ROI?

Disclaimer: You can ofc ROI this in terms of $, if BTC price skyrocket. My point being, it's always better to buy coins.

I just do calculation up to halving, then a brand new calculation that assumes a ~9mos (or whatever it is exactly) lead time for 12.5btc/blocl. Then add the two together.

From what I see though, breakeven is around the point of halving, after which there may be another 10-20% return over an extra 6-8 months.

Biggest concern is that bitcoin price could move faster than difficulty, as I think it's realistic to assume $700/btc or better by 2017.

Not that I'm aware of.

spiccioli

Yes you are correct, sorry I should have said that.  Are there any calculators take halving into effect?

Finsky,

your model doesn't consider, it seems to me, that at the start of next July there will be next halving.

spiccioli

A couple problems with your calculator:

-Mining starting January 6th-  Miners are due to ship on November 20th, and arrive at the hosting facility to be operational by around Nov 27th if enough people get involved. I have it set as an early December start date in case of delays.
-Electricity Cost of $0.065 per KW & 1000W-  Electricity cost (hosting) is already included in the purchase price for the first 3 months.  Better off removing it from purchase price, and using $58.02 as a recurring monthly cost to cover electricity and PSU for the calculator.
-Hash rate and energy consumption- Firmware for 3.65TH/s is meant to be released shortly after miners ship, and the consumption figure of 1kW is based on the initial, higher figure.

Here is what I came up with:



Note, my model also has the lower exchange rate reflected.  If I was to run it at the same exchange of $333 from  yesterday, it would be a 323 day ROI.  Total return was BTC1.2, and higher exchanges would offset cost of hosting by more.

You can if you want, you can also renew the contract. Your choice!
As for ballpark shipping cost: It depends where you live. It would probably be best to use canada post's shipping calculator to get a rough estimate in CAD.

A ball park figure on cost for that to be done would also be nice to know. (again into the math of all this)

Just confirming that we ship the miners from the data center to ourselves after the hosting contract is done?

hmmmm....what I get on tradeblock.com with these new numbers. Using 1-15 numbers ..if we got to over 50 units the savings would be about  50 bucks FYI

Also this is NOT including any pool fees which MAY be included in hosting. If I am incorrect run the same calcs with 2.5% pool fees as others have sugested (or 1% your choice unclear on this myself)




used default 7% diff rise on the calculator


anyway not too rosy on above would not roi in 1 year

Alright everyone! I had the pleasure of speaking with Kevin @ GND this evening to get some details about their facility and power situation.  The way their 3-phase power & PDU's are arranged require that each leg inside each PDU be balanced so as not to cause them problems.  Each PDU can handle 7500W maximum, or 2500W per leg, balanced.  The only way to safely arrange this w/ Avalon6's is for each PSU to power 2x units after the firmware upgrade to 3.65 TH/s & ~1000W DC, which would give ~2100W after PSU losses (6300W per PDU).  The only way we would be able to get 2.5 miners per PSU as originally planned would be to keep them at 3.5 TH/s as opposed to the planned firmware upgrade to 3.65TH/s, which I'm quite confident nobody would want to do.

As for lease rates, I am offering a rate of $20 per PSU package per month, including shipping to the data centre, replacing any faulty units, and covering lost mining profit due to PSU problems beyond 99% uptime. This will work out to $10 per miner per month for the PSU for this Group Buy. Considering the issues revolving around joint ownership of the PSU's, responsibility of who would replace faulty PSU's in the case of a failure, and having to hastily liquidate the hardware at a discount and ship PSU's to the new owners at the end of the hosting term, I think this will make a lot of sense to most of you. If anyone is willing to sign on to a 6-month or longer hosting contract with GND, I would be willing to drop the rates for them to offset shipping there and back. Hosting contract is a fixed 3-month.  We can talk about discounts for those looking to renew w/ GND after their 3 months is up.

If you have any questions about this, please feel free to ask!

Looking forward to it!

Good idea, I've done that.

That's exactly what I've been thinking, although I'm stubborn--and I'm planning on running these miners all the way up until they don't turn a profit anymore. Great North Data is actually saying that they will have even lower rates in a few months, which we will get. So that's a nice thought.

this is quite a good deal, its a shame the hardware cost is just a *smidge* high. If BTC could jump back over $350 I would be interested in 1-2 units

realistically the hardware would stay at GND for a year or more because of the costs to ship it elsewhere, and the fact that its cheap enough electricity that difficulty could pretty much quadruple at $320/BTC and still make a few dollars a month.

Can you please specify "noon" or "midnight" (12:00 PM is surprisingly confusing for a lot of people) and perhaps add UTC times too.

I just need to speak with GND about some of the details for PSU configuring to get a firm price, but I think this could be very beneficial to the GB members. Leasing will eliminate the issues of people owning portions of a PSU, and having to liquidate them at a hefty discount on short notice when some people opt out of the hosting. Not to mention the issue of who would be responsible for replacing defective PSU's if they do fail, down-time due to PSU issues, as well as additional costs for having heavy PSU's shipped cross-border to return them to the potential owner(s) if opting out of hosting. I would assume responsibility for all this.

I will update as soon as I hear back from GND.

They definitely won't knock the retail costs of their pi kits off the total cost of the miners if we source from someone else.
And please remember that the listed prices of hardware are from a recent quote and are likely to change based on where the BTC price goes and qty purchased. We will only know the full cost after we have a certain number of members ready to buy.

Of course, if they jack their price up then I can refund you guys the reservation fee and we can abort the purchase--it's only fair.

From what I've heard from blockC, the pi's come configured.
Great North Data is not cool at all with giving anyone remote access. Sorry.   The onsite tech will do all those operations himself--I have their contact info.

Another update: Finksy got back to me with an excellent idea on how to deal with 2.5 PSUs a miner while minimizing the cost. He's putting together an option for a 3 month (renewable) lease on all the required PSUs. This of course cuts down our upfront costs by a fair margin and makes withdrawing from the buy much less of a hassle (we simply send excess PSUs back and we renew a smaller qty in the next lease).

If the price is reasonable I would be very excited for this option!

Loving it so far!

Are the Pi's pre-installed with some kind of software for running the avalons? Or do we need to do that ourselves? If so, who will do it?
How will you have remote access? Would it be possible to get remote access to the miners web gui for the participants in the group buy? I understand if we can't, just a question.
A easy solution would be to have ssh access to the Pi running the avalon, on some random high-port. Running a SOCKS5 proxy you could just tunnel the web traffic to your miners LAN address.
Tho this is probably a unnecessary security risk to take, and probably would require some management/infrastructure work if you wanted to split the miners into seperate sub-nets.

Again, totally understand if we can't have access. I think I just answered my own question.

Ah, ok, so now we're at 1251,00 USD plus as much RPis as we need and they're selling them at 75 USD each, so maybe we can source them elsewhere for less.

spiccioli

Hmm, the price on the site was previously 14.4K, they must have changed it recently. But yes, we get the advantage of pi's.

Ok, good, I was going to ask how you would manage 50 separate pool sets on one Pi

Found it

Controllers (Rpi aren't included).

spiccioli

armedmilitia,

you said we have 10% discount on units from site's price.

They're priced at 13900,00 USD per 10 units, so their price should be around 1250,00 each at least from 10 units, I see them at 1300-1320 instead.

What am I missing?

Regards.

spiccioli

Small update: BlockC got back to me. It actually turns out they're going to include one Pi per Avalon6, as each Pi can only point to one set of pools.

BlockC said they were included in the total cost of the miners, I've contacted them to see exactly how many we are getting, it's probably only going to be a couple (they can each manage up to 50 units).

Yes, the PSUs will be a pain in the ass somewhat if you decide to not renew the hosting contract. On the other hand, the hosting contract is really good. If you were to sell the miners to another person they probably would just renew the contract anyway.

There's also the option of selling leftover PSUs and distributing the proceeds proportionately, which is fair IMO.


Hmm, I'm not sure if the Avalon6 has the same interface. If members decide to use an "intermittent" pool as their primary, they'll need to be careful in selecting a stable backup pool!

well, this is how I do it too, but maybe others have a different style, trying to catch their luck.
Ok, anyway.

I see only three pools on the 4.1 setup page, so if you setup one as nicehash and another as westhash, then you only have one "real" failover.
Not relevant to me as I don't use nicehash since SP20 days, but maybe relevant to others.

I think this 5:2 miners-per-PSU setup is going to be a major PITA. PSUs typically outlive miners but it looks like unless I buy 5 miners I wouldn't be able to recoup my investment in the PSUs. 2:1 setup would be only ~$15-20 more but much more flexible.

Also not quite clear on the Raspberries. How many are you getting and why is that not in the price?

As a general update: I've extended a few of the deadlines for the group buy.

I can't make any promises, but I'll be contacting GND as soon as I get your PM, and they are usually quite fast to update pool info.
I imagine the average group buy participant will only be making one or two pool switches throughout the course of the hosting term anyways.

I'm not sure about the legal stuff surrounding importing hardware to Canada. If you want details you'll need to contact them about that, but for all hardware that I've brought in to Canada I've needed to pay duties. (I'm not a lawyer or customs officer)


Well, you'll have a specific miner with your choice of workername. If that miner dies, it's on you to pay for shipping for the RMA (great north data will physically ship it out for you). If you want a list of usernames and serial numbers we can do that too. Great North Data is fairly good with handling fees, and especially considering you're doing an RMA I'm sure they'll be sympathetic.

As for repair timeframe, I don't know. BlockC seems very competent from what I've gleaned from communication with them, I'm confident they'll work on it as fast as possible.


I'll announce that we're updating the firmware before it happens, just send me a message if you don't want it.


I've sent GND an email to clarify.


You can transfer ownership of the miner to another user with a PM to me (it's just a pool switch). I'd highly suggest using escrow, if one of you authorizes the switch but doesn't get paid I have no way to verify that and will transfer ownership anyway.


Sorry but no, BlockC wants to ship them all to one location and I agree that it's far less complicated that way.
If you want to pick up a unit for yourself you'll have to find a different group buy. 

not sure what you mean by side deals. It already says that you can transfer ownership during 3mo, but cannot ship equipment out during that time.
maybe you mean that you can resell part of your hashing power without transferring ownership?

i think some commit on speed of pool changes is needed (12-24hr?)

No way to just buy one and pay an extra fee to have it just mailed to me? I have a psu, and cheaper electric than the host.

Yeah  lets say 3 months pass  I am done with contract and I want out.  how do we do resales?

For that matter.  Lets say 1 month in coins skyrocket to 2000  and the gear 3x in value.  yeah this does happen rarely but it does.

   I want out  official early sale possible  or do I do a side deal?

I ask this because while I would not cheat someone on a side deal  others may.

 Banning side deals won't work.  

So addressing people that want out early needs something even if it is just to say :

  " side deals   can not be banned due to impossibility of enforcing the ban. If you do a side deal and get scammed you are responsible and will not seek recourse from the group buy/ hosting "

Sounds very interesting.

One question: OK, you paid for one or few units.

1. Are you linked to a particular machine with a certain serial number? i am asking in case, for example, one machine malfunctions. If it is your bad luck or everyone gets a small hit to hashing? The latter would have been better, but it is not what is described. Not to be too picky, but blockc warranty does not include any timeframe for repairs. Who will actually do the shipping for repairs? Hopefully, no handling fees (just shipping).

2. In addition, how software update installs will be handled? Some people like to update all the time, some none at all.

3. 3 months hosting is OK as far as being tied up. Will hosting be available at the same price afterwards or can it be extended at a group rate if certain % of the group stays, say 70%, or enough members to get to described thresholds?

Import duties are required for hardware I would own from the US and host in Canada? I do not pay them for traditional data center hosted equipment, is it a matter of just not understanding how to import hardware not actually owned by the facility, or is the facility classification incorrect?

Reserved!

We didn't hit the MOQ!

UNITS RESERVED: 4
Reservations close Sunday at noon EST (5:00PM UTC)

The Avalon6 is rated at 3.5TH/s, 0.29 J/GH @ the wall (1015W). BlockC has informed me that Avalon should be releasing a firmware update in 5 weeks that will get it up to 3.65TH/s at the same efficiency. Detailed specs: http://www.blockc.co/products/avalon-6-3-5-th-s-bitcoin-mining-server

What is this?
This is a group buy for the Avalon6 miner + 3 months rental of Finksy's platinum rated PSUs + 3 months (renewable) hosting @ Great North Data up in Labrador, Canada.
At the end of the hosting period you have the choice to ship the miners out or to renew the contract. Those who choose to renew may get a discount on PSUs with Finksy, and GND will be lowering their rates across the board in several months.

The advantages of going with this group buy are numerous: We'll get a solid volume discount on the Avalon6 units and PSUs, the MOQ for individuals in this buy is 1 instead of 10, our hosting is cheaper than going alone, and we save quite a bit on shipping. Already we have a better rate than the official blockC website as it is. All in all, not too shabby!

This is the original discussion thread (now outdated) where this plan was hashed out:  
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12952744

COSTS:
15 units:
$1320 for the Avalon6 (could go lower)
$50 for shipping
$66 for import duties on the Avalon6
$30 for 3 months of PSU rental
$144.06 for 3 months hosting @ 47.31 USD/KW/Month

50 units:
$1310 for the Avalon6 (conservative estimate, could go lower)
$20 for shipping
$65.50 for import duties
$30 for 3 months of PSU rental
$137.64 for 3 months hosting @ 45.04 USD/KW/Month

100 units:
$1300 for the Avalon6 (conservative estimate, could go lower)
$10 for shipping
$65 for import duties
$30 for 3 months of PSU rental
$133.05 for 3 months hosting @ 43.55 USD/KW/Month

Note that the final costs for the Avalon6 and shipping will be determined after they have been reserved, these are estimates provided by blockC. If the total price has increased you can withdraw without penalty. The numbers here serve as a guide but won't be exact.

TIME FRAME:
The Avalon6 units will arrive at blockC on November 20th. From there I've been told it will take a week to arrive in labrador. It's possible the batch sells out before we raise all the funds. This isn't a disaster, blockC has confirmed they will be receiving more batches in the future.

Finksy will need payment earlier, as he needs to pay his suppliers before sending us units. We'll need to pay him by monday night, which is why the reservations close on sunday. You guys will have to make the payment to the address Finksy provides by Monday at 11:59PM EST (4:59AM UTC Tuesday), or you risk losing your deposit!

PAYMENT:

• There is a refundable deposit of 0.06BTC/unit to ensure you are actually serious. You will receive that back once the group buy is over, provided you haven't skipped a payment or backed out. Reservations will close in a few days, I will give 24hrs notice before that happens!
• BlockC and Finksy will provide me with a payment address after reservations are closed, you must send me a signed message from the sending address containing your username.
• Great North Data will provide me with a payment address when the miners arrive in Labrador. If you don't pay for hosting, your miners will be redirected to mine for GND in order to pay for it, and then returned to you!

WITHDRAWL:
You may back out of the buy before we pay BlockC, but you lose your deposit! After that, it's too late.

TRANSFER:
You can transfer the ownership of the miner to another person while the hosting contract is underway (it's only a pool switch and a spreadsheet update on my end), but that person can't move their hardware until the term expires.

WARRANTY:
From the blockC website:
The group buy itself doesn't provide a warranty, which means you're on the hook for shipping costs to blockC if your miner fries.

HOSTING DETAILS:
Detailed power cost (converted from CAD to USD, rounded):

• 6.61¢/KWH (10 Units)
• 6.30¢/KWH (50 Units)
• 6.09¢/KWH (100 Units)

This includes sales tax and a 24/7 onsite tech. These are awesome rates.

I will sign the hosting contract and serve as the representative of the group buy to Great North Data. This is so they don't have to deal with many different customers for the same set of hardware. Please contact me, not great north data, if you need to switch pools or otherwise have problems.


This is the payment address for reserving units (send 0.06BTC for each miner/hosting/psu package you are getting):
(GB closed)

Send from an address you are capable of signing messages from. Please PM me a signed message from that address containing your username.
How to sign a message: http://support.bitcoin.cz/knowledgebase/article/View/36/0/how-to-sign-a-message-using-a-bitcoin-client

Feel free to discuss this below!