Topic: [CLOSED] Lendee Trustworthiness (Lenders, please report) (Read 2002 times)

After some thought, I'm deciding to close this thread and remove the OP viewing link. It will still be updated until a better solution comes along, but will be kept private between lenders. This was not intended to be a long-term solution, but a.... kluge, if you will, until a time comes where a proper system has been developed. PM me if you'd like the viewing link (lenders only).

"All Things Old are New Again" ~ who knows.

   Lenders are keeping 'Credit Ratings' in their databases. This is the way 'Credit' started. It was local to the merchant who kept files on customers. Then local merchants started to share their data with other local merchants so the customer who had good credit at Acme Hardware but bad credit at Joe's Groceries wouldn't or couldn't overextend. It remained local for awhile so moving to another town/state would absolve your past credit issues and start a new one. Then some genius came up with an idea of creating a nation wide database so a credit rating could follow you no matter where you went.
   If lending is to become a successful venue for BitCoin, this process will happen again although this time it will become global and with some differences. Real Names shouldn't be used in the DataBase. Heck, that system is already being 'gamed' by people because in reality the underwriting company that provides Credit never actually sees the person. They are just going off of what the local company supplies to them. So, lets stick with GPG signed . The verified gpg gets granted credit. In fact, this is better than the actual credit agencies methods because anyone can steel a but also steeling the Private Key to that is another story. It provides an extra security step. (Although this is no guarantee)
  As member, Patrick pointed out. The people wanting loans should expect scrutiny especially for high value loans. However, this in no way implies that loans wouldn't happen that are 'off the books.'  Friends and 'already' trusted would still lend to each other. This is natural and as it should be. Some parties might agree to not report for 'extra' interest. This is of no concern to the 'credit agency.'
  Another added benefit is the ability to grant longer term loans at lower interest rates. This is good for the BitCoin currency. Plus there is an added benefit for the customers. You might trash your credit by defaulting. But without filing for 'bankruptcy', you could start again at the bottom with another and build up your credit again.
  Lenders will, in no doubt, have defaults. Credit will help minimize those defaults and allow them to work with in a margin of safety. Some lenders, similar to 'Fannie May', might grant unreasonable loans and get hit hard. Such is life in the world of lending. Don't over extend your margins and there should be profit in it for the lender.
  In conclusion if BitCoin is to grow, a form of credit check will have to happen in order for lenders to successfully lend to the masses. It is believed that however this system grows; there should be great caution in its development. Whatever system is adopted before it goes into full fledge activity, it should under go a 'peer' review to insure protections are in place for the customers. There are many 'what ifs' to be answered. It is hoped that the first system is not quickly thrown together and a proactive system with forethought and not a re-active system with hindsight is put in place.


p.s. I did not bother to self edit as others will gladly do that for me from what I have seen.  


Best Regards,
The Bear

Why not have a system like SafeOrScam where potential lenders can look up lendee's ratings only when the lendee gives some sort of verifiable piece of info (like an email address)? That way people can't just browse lending info which could lead to some predatory practices. Or maybe link info with a public key so that lenders can verify that they're dealing with the same person?

As a lender, with real money at risk, if you're borrowing then expect some scrutiny.  If you don't want any attention, don't borrow.

P

Only a lender who PMs me is given a link to their own individual sheet. Insofar as that, identity of the lender is guaranteed. They are not permitted to edit others' sheets, and only I have privileges to the master list.

Privacy could be an issue. The only identifiable information included is forum handle. Loan information is typically laid out publicly on the forum. AFAIK, there is no information in the spreadsheet which is not already available in the lending forum. I don't really understand where "identity thieves" come into play.

ETA: I can personally guarantee the "anonymous lenders" all have legitimate loan info, but lenders in that category have opted to remain anonymous.

Ok, brace yourselves..


Here's a conversation I had just a second ago in IRC and rather than retype it, I'm gonna paste it.


[2012/01/24 01:37:00] <+imsaguy> The idea is kinda cute, but the implementation sucks.
[2012/01/24 01:37:21] <+imsaguy> Typos, layout, validation are all lacking
[2012/01/24 01:37:50] <+imsaguy> He's got numbers for comments, but the comments are actually redundant, so why are they getting unique numbers?
[2012/01/24 01:38:07] <+copumpkin> it seems to be an attempt to reimplement a sort of WOT
[2012/01/24 01:38:17] <+copumpkin> but without any of the strong identity guarantees
[2012/01/24 01:38:36] <+copumpkin> I'd like a WOT with multi-step signed statements though
[2012/01/24 01:38:39] <+imsaguy> Plus at some point, my privacy is compromised.
[2012/01/24 01:38:51] <+imsaguy> My credit report [IRL] is only available if I authorize it.
[2012/01/24 01:39:06] <+imsaguy> Here, I have some third party just plastering everything out there.
[2012/01/24 01:39:15] <+copumpkin> yeah, ugh
[2012/01/24 01:39:19] <+imsaguy> Personally, I have nothing to hide.
[2012/01/24 01:39:22] <+imsaguy> But its more the idea.
[2012/01/24 01:39:22] <+copumpkin> plus there's no connecting it to the actual person there
[2012/01/24 01:39:30] <+copumpkin> identity thieves would have a field day

I've finished adding 43 loans manually picked up from the lending forum. There are currently over 50 unique loans in the master list. More will come soon.

If you want your info added before jfreak's done with his website, but don't want to give me your email address, I could enter them in spreadsheet with little effort if you send me your loans in spreadsheet form.

nice

maybe this will evolve into a BTC credit report 

Amazing! I'm interested in this venture too lol
Subscribed.

Sounds great.

ha ha you don't ask for much ha ha

Well what I was thinking was allowing the lender's to enter and search for user's, usernames can be used from this forum or another forum and also the information on the loan given.  Then each lender would be allowed to rate the loan and also comment on it.  The information on the loan would be visible for anyone with the username to see, just a simple search of the loan list would bring up their average rating and once clicked on can see each and every rating they have gotten from each loan.  Each time a lender has a new loan they enter it in their control panel, be it old or new it doesn't matter, since when you loan out you enter the date of the loan and pay back date.  Once the loan is closed it won't be editable though.  So a lender can enter the loan and leave pending for payment then once it's paid mark the date paid and it closes the loan and add's it to the public view able list.

Sound good?

So long as it takes everyone's loans once finished, compiles them in a public master list, alpha-sorts them, and lets us add old loans - yeah, that'd be super!

How about a free online Loan system with ratings?  Think it's a good idea?  If so I can get that up in a few days or so with user's, it would be invite only and you would have to PM me your email to add you a user to the rating system.  Then the results would be public.  Like that idea?

I've used Google Docs for a while, but didn't know about Fusion tables, so sorry if my points are out of ignorance.

I didn't see an option to share without giving away edit permissions.  It's just one giant sheet, so I can't just give everyone their own sheet, then update the master list myself. There are maybe 15 people with many loans out, so updating the master table every few hours myself really isn't much of a hassle. I also couldn't find an option to easily sort the loans by name, which is very simple in a spreadsheet. Any additional details can be added in the "comments" section which doesn't make the actual sheets messy, and allows the comments to be looked up easily. I was considering adding a column for interest, but wondered if it might be a violation of privacy to give away what those lendees were willing to pay on principal before, giving the lender an upper-hand in negotiating rates. I think as-is, to determine how much BTC a lendee has previously been trusted with, and whether or not he paid that back, is adequate in fulfilling the goals of this project. If enough lenders want it, though, or talk to me on Skype about it, I'll change it.

I don't see ease-of-access being a problem. All someone viewing the list needs to do is click a link and look at the first table that pops up.

  This is an interesting idea. How about use a google fusion table instead and add a little more detail. (ie. type of loan, interest, etc...) That way people could access it fairly easily and add to it. However, one would have to determine whom gets access to 'add' data. Otherwise, it wouldn't be long before others just boost their score.

This might be a good start: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.701292

That's quite a big thing to take on, if it actually takes of- nice one.

Kind of silly to have a bunch of our own lists. Let's compile our lists in one Google spreadsheet, for our own sake. Each lender gets their own sheet, which only they can access. There will be a main combined sheet I edit which lists everyone's loans in alphabetical order by lendee name.

(list still available for lenders to edit and view, but removed from general forum. PM me if interested.)

If you're a lender and interested in reporting your transactions here, PM me with your email address so I can add a sheet for you and share the editable sheet to you.

edit: I should note collaborators' email addresses will probably be shared with other collaborators through Google. If anyone knows a way to prevent this, I'm all ears.


ETA:
Appeals
Please notify me of which information is incorrect, point me to the thread where the loan is documented (or claim there is no documentation and the loan never happened), and I will correct the information. If you do not have documentation proving information on the master list incorrect, I will trust the lender's information, and not uphold your appeal. For claims of the loan never happening, I will attempt finding documentation of the loan, or ask the lender. If I am unable to find documentation of the loan happening within 48h, I will remove the loan from the spreadsheet. If a lender reports false information more than twice per year, I will permanently revoke that lender's privilege to collaborate on the spreadsheet.