Topic: CoinTerra Update: Engineering and Production status (Read 4669 times)

depends on what exactly 30% defective means... does that mean that 30% of the systems he's received are defective?  or does that mean that they're hashing at 30% less performance ?

in my case, ive had a number of machines arrive to the hosting company that were unstable.  some amount of hardware fixes (screwing fans on the right way around, loose parts needed re-attaching etc)... has helped.. as has firmware updates.. but we're not there yet.  they're not yet stable.  but they're doing ok.   i think hashfast has had manufacturing quality issues that they're trying to address.  they're quite behind on my shipment (and on everyone else's, no doubt), with the excuse that they've had production issues that they believe they're addressing.

my cointerra gear, by comparison.. is more stable.  works, mostly out of the box.  hasn't required any significant attention on arrival.  much more 'plug and play'.  more solid.  however, in terms of quantity so far, I've had more hashfast gear turn up than cointerra gear...  but both companies are trickling them out now... and ramping up production.  i hope to have both of my orders fulfilled very shortly.

Jez are you saying your Hashfast Sierras are working well too?  DeadTerra swears they are over 30% defective.

months late...way under powered...riddled with bugs.

The good news is that in five short months they will have some powerhouse 400Ghs units to sell so you better start Pre-Ordering NOW or miss the boat!!!

I've now received some hashfast and some cointerra gear.  its all hashing away now.  i don't have all of either of my orders yet, but I've got some.. and its working well.

-- Jez

My 2.5TH/s of ants with a few literally on top of a knc jupiter make 3TH/s today.....really wish I had believed more in cointerra and got one of those too....maybe next time.

Go Cointerra, good to see another asic miner manuf., specially here in the USA, and Texas, even better. Don't mess with tex

Guy, it's not going to take long for the cointerra unit to outearn the number of BTC the antminer has earned since Dec.  Where the Ant is going to win is the % of BTC earned comparative to the BTC cost.

Fine.  But we will use the accrued numbers from the ants that shipped in Dec.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  you EITHER want to compare what is available TODAY or you want to compare EVENTUAL outcome.  I already tried asking this but you totally ignored it.  How long, when you eventually get it, will it take for a CT box to 'catch up' to the ants that have been mining since December?

It may not seem like but I am truly not trying to argue with you.  If you have an affinity (or $$$ tied up) in a particular vendor or solution what business is that of mine?  The only reason I even jumped in on this thread was because while I have no issue with someone being happy with their decision that's a very different thing than condemning someone else's decision and using false statements to back it up.

aerobic I swear I'm not trying to be a douche.

No, the point that he wants to put his Antminer which he paid somewhere between 4.25-1.9BTC for and likely has in his hands right now against the Cointerra unit you purchased for $16,000 at whatever number of BTC equivalent which you do not currently posses and see who's further ahead after some arbitrary amount of time.

Stupid flame wars aside, has anybody actually gotten shipping confirmation?  Far as I can tell only one person has a unit and it was a local pickup/PR opportunity

Ah, so now the "home" miner is a "professional" miner. More worthless buzzwords.

CT is "professional". Irrelevent to profitability.
CT is liquid cooled. Irrelevent to profitability.
CT has several fans. Irrelevent to profitability.
CT has a pretty aluminum case. Irrelevent to profitability.
CT has some big power supplies. Irrelevent to profitability.
CT might have some certifications. Irrelevent to profitability.

Get the picture? I'm talking the only thing that matters. Profitability. How much does it cost vs. how much it generates. Hard numbers that aren't buzzwords. Bitmain may not be sexy, pretty, cool. But when it comes to profitability, it blows CT away. There's no reasonable way to run the numbers and come to any other conclusion. Anyone placing an order today for CT is *wasting* money. A lot of money.

his point that he wants to compare the hashing rate of the antminer with my cointerra that hasn't arrived yet?  whats the point of that?

lets compare that in a week or two when its arrived then.

Are you deliberately missing his point? 

don't be silly.. you would lose your hashing race today.

im a customer of several different mining companies.   my policy is to spread my eggs.   i don't believe in any one mining company.  i believe in all of them.    I've got a bunch of jupiters that I'm very proud of that have been hashing away since october and have done very well.. I'm a huge fan of kncminer!  they're the leaders in this space, for sure.

ive also started to receive my hashfast boxes.  a baby jet arrived a couple of days ago and its up and running today.   its hashing at 420 GH right now... I've yet to try over clocking it.

And next week or two i hope to receive more hashfast boxes, and start to receive some cointerra boxes.

Ahhh...perhaps that explains his mysterious need to demean anything not CT.

aerobic I never said any kind of customer WASN'T anything...that is the dreamworld that YOU seem to be living in.  I'll tell you what I'll make it really simple for you...

Let's have a hashing race TODAY.  I will put up my antminer vs. your CoinTerra.
WHO WINS THE RACE?

One small note. aerobatic isn't a simple fanboi, he is an ivestor.

i think you're living in an imaginary dreamworld if you think that customers of high end miners aren't serious miners.

I don't consider myself to be in an argument...just chatting about a topic that is of interest to all here.

You do make some very contradictory statements however.  You indicate that you are a batch one customer and HOPE to get your hardware sometime in the next week or two.  There are a number of avenues that could put an antminer on your doorstep in one or two DAYS and there are people that have been mining with them for weeks and weeks.  Even if you get your CT box in two weeks how long will it take for it to catch up to the ants that have been marching since December?

You can pump the finished product if you like but there is no denying facts and the fact is antminers ARE and have been available.

Serious miners?  I would think serous miners want to mine...not drool over the powerful, efficient, shiny box that they 'hope to receive in a week or two'.

thats an odd thing to say...  and this is a really weird argument!

just because they've pre-sold their next few months of production doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  it just means if you weren't already a pre-order customer, you can no longer buy one direct from cointerra's online store (but as with all bitcoin miners, there is always an aftermarket of people re-selling their brand new miners to take a quick profit).  the first customer has already received theirs and the rest of batch 1 are due to ship this coming week (production is in austin so deliveries will hopefully not be affected by chinese new year)

im a batch 1 customer.  I'm hoping to receive some miners in the coming week or two.  perhaps faster than i could get an antminer.   but these are wholly different products aimed at different markets.  there really is no comparison.

True but if the race were to start TODAY he would still win because unlike your fancy motorbike his bicycle EXISTS.

Syke -

you're talking different things here.  one is a professional miner thats 10 times as powerful as the other... and uses half the amount of power per gigahash.  you're comparing a bicycle and a motorbike here.  they're aimed at different markets and have different performance and uses.

This is why I love reading this forum. You fanbois are quite humorous. 2100 watts, requires a extension cord from another circuit in another part of the house to be dragged across the floor to power the unit. Home use? LOL! I'll chose "obsolute" hardware that makes a profit over a pretty box that doesn't, any day of the week.

i completely agree with you, antminer is for people who want to buy something thats obsolete quickly and uses too much power, and takes up a too much space, and will require more hassle and wiring up power supplies, and is dangerous if used in a home environment because its not certified or approved for use.  ant miner is for hobbyists who don't mind having bare boards exposed, and power supply wires dangling.

i also completely agree with you that you're excellent at twisting and misquoting other people's posts

Free express shipping, arrives in a few days.

I completely agree! Antminer is for people who care about profitability. CT is for people who like wasting money on fancy boxes.

Thanks for the link.

I'd still be looking at roughly $1340 Canadian, plus shipping, can't see how much they charge, I'm assuming it isn't free.

Then I'm gonna get nailed by customs for tax and duty I assume. Tax alone would be about $160. There are people listing these on Craigslist for $3500 here though.

Maybe some money in just reselling them, buy bitcoin with that.

its a different product category.  the antminer looks like its aimed at the hobbyist end of the market (same as bitfury).. it doesn't seem quite as professional as some other products...  it doesn't have a case, nor a power supply, and seems less 'plug and play' (and costs more, and uses more power per gh, etc).  but yes, its available from stock, and that counts for a lot.

if i didn't already have an early order with knc, hashfast and cointerra i would've been more interested.  But I'm eagerly awaiting the wasp to see how they get on.

-- Jez

https://bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020140107162747992Ce5uBuxW06D6

Thanks for the laugh joe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

Way to miss the point. CT is highly overpriced. CT = $3/GH, Bitmain = $6/GH. The difficulty is going up way more than 2x in 3 months. I guarantee it. Dare to bet on it?

JINX!!

ok.. reworking some of the assumptions...   if asic companies made their own asics and system boards and deployed their own asics in their own private mines...  they could buy the systems cheaper than retail, of that there is no doubt.   but the costs aren't zero.  its at best (in this generation) half the retail cost.

i suspect the cost price of a knc jupiter s probably still approx half the retail cost, and don't forget that the $3/gh that I've quoted is a cointerra price (i.e. cheapest that i currently know of), not a knc price (which was $17/gh for the 1st jupiters in oct).. later jupiters were cheaper and faster is still probably in the $8-$10/gh range.

if you're thinking that knc can make a jupiter (for their own in-house use) for $1/gh, i think thats much too low and not achievable in the current generation.  of course, with 20nm maybe its closer to reality.   And by comparison, look at the new asicminer chips announced yesterday, in the $1/gh range.. just for the asics.  when you add boards, cooling, power, controller, etc... the price is going to be north of $1.5-$2/gh.

and think about how many millions you need to devote to build out your private mine.   21e6 raised $5m at a 6m pre-money valuation...   what does $5m buy you?   maybe a full asic design and a first batch of production.  so maybe they could afford the first PH at most.  they can't afford any more without raising more cash, or mining to raise the cash, to build up the mine further.

and why would they do it when there are plenty of people willing to give them cash, now, to sell their miners.. cash in advance is much lower risk and a better return for them than mining, where they take on network diff risk and deferred cash-flow.

Don't confuse retail with "cost", do you think KNC is paying $3/GH for the hashrate they are putting online themselves?

I agree that 10x in three months is pessimistic, but 6x is what 2%/day suggests— and thats what we've been averaging for some time now (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth.png).  It can't continue forever, of course, but long enough to prevent profit for everyone buying at $3/GH delivered months from now? I absolutely think it can.

difficulty probably won't go up 10x in 3 months.  thats quite a pessimistic view.

we're at end of jan and the network is 17.5 PH today.  So you think think it could be seriously be 175 PH by end of April ?

And, as we know.. the lowest cost bitcoin mining equipment available today costs $3/GH and some of it is trading at $20-40 per GH, so that $3/gh price is at the extreme low end of the market ...  so for the sake of argument, lets assume that it stays at that price for the next 3 months...

So you're saying that with 175 - 17.5 PH.. thus 157 PH will be sold (or has been sold) to be deployed on the network in the next 3 months.

157 PH, at $3/GH (or, $3M per PH), is $472.5m's worth of bitcoin mining equipment.

you really think bitcoin miners will spend and deploy nearly $500m on bitcoin mining hardware in the next 3 months?

then lets compare electricity usage...

The best bitcoin miners today, and also anything available in the next 3 months, is approximately 1 watt per GH.. which equates to 1 Megawatt per Petahash.

Thus you are saying that 157 Megawatts of additional continuous power will be required for bitcoin mining in the next 3 months?

i really think thats unlikely.  i don't think you can simply take what bitcoin mining has done over the last few months and extrapolate even the next few months worth of use as we've undergone a transition from slow asics to fast asics, and that just can't continue at the same rate.  sure, it will keep growing, but at a slower growth rate.

-- Jez

200 gh/s for $1000?  I haven't been able to find anything close to that.  I'll have to keep looking.

That's at least 3 months away, difficulty will go up 10x in that time. So 200 GH/s now is equal to 2 TH/s in May. You can get 200 GH/s now for just over $1000. Why would you throw away $5000???

So I can pick one up (TerraMiner™ IV – 2TH/s, Networked ASIC Miner) for $6,391.97 U.S. to be delivered in May.

For the price, this seems to be the best bang for your buck that I have come across so far.

The only big variable i see is mining difficulty. Am I missing something?

I notice they only take Bitcoin and bank transfer, that's a big red flag to me, or is this normal with companies like this?

Do any take credit cards?

course it 'bothers me' that i will receive 15% less hash power than i was expecting.  But in the time since i ordered, bitcoins are worth 800% more than they were when i made the decision to buy...   so I'm significantly better off than i forecasted i would be...!  (and the hardware is consequently worth a lot more... if it were sold today!)   bitcoin mining hardware value correlates well with price of bitcoin.

but 'bother' is the wrong word.  this is business.  and my portfolio is diversified.  mining is one of my areas of interest and i invest in other assets (properties, companies etc).  

I've said this before.. but i'm less worried about taking delivery of my CT gear within a few weeks of schedule (at 15% less than expected hash rate) than i am at not receiving my HF gear, 12+ weeks later than scheduled... (regardless of whatever hash rate hf will over-delver).  and i paid more for my hf gear than my ct gear, $/gh.   bottom line, the delivery date is more important (read, more valuable!) than the hash rate.

Really 



more here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=416576.20

I agree with you that at this point, the best thing to do is to deliver what they have.  My complaint is the same one we discussed a few weeks ago, that they have over-promised and under-delivered.  This doesn't seem to bother you, and I'm trying to figure out why.

Did you really just compare CT with KNC? KNC delivered 2 weeks late with 50% greater hashrate. Customers were fairly compensated.

CT is delivering 2 months late, at -20% hashrate. Ouch!!!

"22 billion in May"


is very possible  at present 2% per day compound growth = 22 billion at end of may / early june ( this has being the trend for about 8 months)
it possible Neptune will ship by mid May
shipping soon  = bfl/hashfast/cointerra and others

there are two independent power supplies.   

so if you have 2 circuits that would be okay.  I did that in anticipation. I have 2 20 amp circuits waiting.

really?  someone doesn't agree with you and they're a shill?

you can't possibly be pragmatic and think of the best longterm value proposition, or is it better to be right, regardless of how much value you extract?

im not on the wrong side on 'the debate'  there's a debate - there is no 'wrong side' - and i try to be balanced and consider both sides of any argument.  

In this case I'm trying to focus on the big picture.  How to maximise value from our mining gear.

im not defending CT.  I'm waiting for my boxes just like you.  AND i want to extract maximum value out of my boxes - which means getting them sooner, and is much more important to me than whether they run at full speed or with a 15-20% under clock

Do you agree that the difficulty rises by about 20-30% each level change?  Thus you know that every week of delay in shipping, has a lost value to us equal to the diff change?

So.. what would you prefer that cointerra do - when faced with this situation?   ship boxes as fast as they can, whatever speed they run?... or take their time tweaking it, and deliver it when it can hit 2 TH - even if that could be 8 weeks away?

actually. lets put this in terms that are easier to compare...   do we prefer CT try to be more like KNC... and deliver quickly to customers... or more like HF, who are tweaking indefinitely and seem in no hurry to ship to customers ?    since the lateness of the hardware has a bigger impact on its ability to mine bitcoins, than exactly how fast it runs... don't we all agree that shipping the Jan customers sooner at 1.6 TH/s is Wayyy better than shipping later, at 2 TH/s?

Which one do you prefer?   I know which i prefer...  i want my TerraMiner BOX, NOW... even if it only hashes at 1.6 TH/s box - rather than wait 8 weeks for a 2 TH/s box.   Sure, the later batch customers will get a faster box than i will.  but i will have received my boxes sooner, and will have had a bigger benefit from mining earlier.

and yes, i want compensation too... but i care about the delivery of my box quickly much more than i care about whether I'm going to get a bonus or refund or discount or whatever they decide to do.  One week earlier shipping, more than covers any nickel or dime i could squeeze out of them in refunds or other comps.

As for how shilly i am... my record speaks for itself.. I've made a few hundred posts.   you can see how biassed or balanced i am.   and also, i'm not an anonymous bitointalk handle...  you know who i am.   perhaps i should also remind that i've got just as big - actually, bigger order with hashfast as i do with cointerra.  and i am also a knc customer... and bitfury... and bfl.. and previously also asicminer investor.  in short, I've nothing to gain from shilling... all i want is to mine productively and earn as many coins as possible.  if cointerra has good hardware for that so be it.   currently, I've been mining with knc jupiters and they've done well for me and I'm extremely happy with them as a company, and the boxes themselves.

i try and spread my eggs, and operate a portfolio approach to my mining gear.  i try not to pick sides.. and try to de-risk my purchases by ordering a bunch from several of the asic companies at the same time.  but i don't order from all of them, because i don't always agree with some of their technical or business decisions.  but that doesn't mean i go around dissing them either.

I have no idea what the difficulty will be... I was using the default numbers from that site to make a point that shipping now was in the customers best interest, even with the excessive power usage and underperformance.  It's definitely non-ideal...  but losing almost $8k in mining revenue while they attempted to fix it would also be non-ideal.  This is still the lesser of two evils, and CoinTerra acted appropriately in the light of that reality.  That was all.

He's one of their angel investors, I don't know why you would attack him for feeling invested, he's literally invested.

You really think difficulty would be over 20 billion in May?  Even with hashfast and cointerra shipping that is somewhat unlikely, 10 billion is more realistic in the spring.  If you really think difficulty is 22 billion in May then nobody would be buying KnC units at all.

The problem isn't that these won't ROI, it's that these now require huge power infrastructure, it's not cheap or easy to come up with the kind of power solutions needed to run these and for people who've basically sent all their spare cash to cointerra it's not exactly easy to come up with tons more money to build a setup capable of running crazy 2000 watt sucking rigs.  And if you've already invested in new power lines/PDUs/cabinets/etc it might be a loss. 

In fairness, Batch 1 people are being gifted Batch 3 units also. Although that may take until April

Ouch.  My bad; those are batch 1 units?

$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... $1190 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/cafe5bf642
$14k, 1.8TH, 1.6kW... -$460 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/30119efaf4
$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... -$6000 lifetime cumulative return if started in Mar '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/e5232335d0

So, point still stands; CoinTerra is minimizing customer losses by shipping early at customer request.  That said, $14k for batch 1...  wow.

Batch 1 might start mining Feb '14. Those cost $15,750 and are thus going to be a huge loss due to the delay. Who knows when Batch 2 will ship.

+1

I think Cointerra have done fairly well. Their development and production delays have amounted to a ~1 month delay, and some performance loss for the batch 1 customers. Batch 1 was only ever the least risky option in the early ASICminer and Avalon days.

To put it in perspective, HashFast customers got 3 month delays, and their first board design couldn't be used for a viable product. BFL were just a total joke, they didn't deliver a viable product 6 months late. There's been some problem with all manufacturers offerings, whether it's late delivery, high prices, flaky units or over promised specs (not to forget outright project failure). This is probably the best compromise so far, and I was initially a Cointerra sceptic.

It's still a compromise though, for the people who get this V.1 board, it could make a not so insignificant difference to their profitability. Hopefully those people will be consigned to the December customers, who could be fairly compensated with V.2 board units in March. Hopefully the re-design will be complete by then for that to happen.

O.o  They're already doing it.  I'll use http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ to compare.  

If they shipped the expected 2000GHs now, started mining in Feb '14, and took the default assumptions on the website, you'd be looking at a lifetime cumulative return of $9190.  I know, this is a completely fictional number, but we have to start somewhere.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/ac1fbf2676

Sadly, reality happened.  They are shipping 1800GHs now, so you can start mining in Feb '14.  Lifetime cumulative return of $7510.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/9090810af2

You're down about $1700, but you're still very profitable.

The other options is to ship a (probably) fully functional 2000GHs unit (probably) next month, and you can start hashing Mar '14.  Using the same assumptions as above, you'd see a lifetime cumulative return of $2000. http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/de9c8dad44

Cointerra is doing right by their customers by acknowledging reality, and shipping the product when it is most profitable to the customer.

what are they going to do to reimburse for the lack of GH/s

don't believe nothing this guys says, this guy is a liar!!! INABA where you at on ur marach?

The way I understand it, they're shipping underperforming product because they needed more time, but their customers expressed a desire to have sooner rather than later despite the underperformance.  As an engineer myself, that's a hell of a lot of pride to swallow for the sake of the customers.  Hats off to the Cointerra team, and congrats on shipping your first product.

WOW, my legitimate concerns have been confirmed now, and you have been proved to be on the wrong side of this debate...yet you continue to defend CT despite their clear failures.  Are you a shill?  Or just defending a position you've over-invested yourself in emotionally?

short memory? it has two power supplies and it has always been a requirement to plug them into separate household circuits if you live in the usa because most households are on 15 amp circuits by default.  those that have got 20 amp circuits may be ok.. and in fact, most homes have a 240 volt supply for the oven or dryer, so you could plug it in there if you preferred (one circuit).... to deliver the same power that us europeans have got (from every socket)

Nope. trying to pull 2000w from a single US 120v is a terrible idea.

20% missed power target. 2 circuits instead of 1. You can still probably get away with using 20A circuit @ average US home.

I remember reading the post here when you guys announced the chip for a first time. Glad I didn't fall for that. Same goes to hashfast.

Congratulations to the CoinTerra team! I know how exciting it is to send your new baby out the door for the first time! Good work guys (and gals if there are any!).

they didnt say what their asics draw.  they said what the system draws at the wall.. which includes a built in controller, plenty of fans, a liquid cooling system (pumps).  and they confirmed that their power conversion circuitry is what theyre redesigning for the new version...

anyway... what any asic company says (based on simulation) before they get their chips back, and what they say (when its fully tested and includes all the real-world losses) after their chips are in a system always seem to be different.. and i cant think of anyone who delivered a system with the same power draw as their specs.   can you?

20%??? What happened to:


Sounds like you missed the power target by quite a bit more than 20%.

Gee.. I wish HashFast would have moved along this quickly..

Thanks Cointerra! Could you please comment on the status of the cointerra II? Will you also be shipping those with the early Jan batch or will the board design issues hold them up? I'm really hoping it doesn't mean I get 800 gh instead of 1th.

http://cointerra.com/update-engineering-production-status/

DATELINE 1/24/2014

Today we wanted to communicate our plans as we move from pre-production into production. As soon as the FCC/CE/UL certification process is completed we will be able to commence shipping the very first production TerraMiners and incrementally ramp up to volume capacity over the coming days.

On the hardware front, we have implemented circuit board modifications which have improved the efficiency of the power conversion circuitry from the time of our initial board bringup and we have revised the firmware on the BeagleBone Black controller card to take advantage of this.

Having achieved a good level of stability and based on feedback from our customers, we have decided to push the button to release our first production TerraMiners IV’s.

Our production lines are assembling units and we have submitted for certification simultaneously. The production units that we have assembled and tested so far are running at between 1.63TH/s and 1.72TH/s with power draw at the wall between 1900W and 2100W – typically 20% higher than our anticipated target of 1650W but still sufficient to operate in a typical US home (110V) plugged into two outlets on separate 15A circuits, or in a typical European home (230V) on a single circuit.

The first-batch of TerraMiner IV units shipping to customers

Is easily the most powerful high-performance Bitcoin miner available today. It smashes the 1TH/s barrier by a huge margin
Is the lowest cost per gigahash of any Bitcoin mining rig on the market
Achieves the highest density of Bitcoin hashing power in its compact 4U enclosure
We will continue tweaking the firmware and any updates will be posted to the CoinTerra website.

Additionally, we have begun a board redesign which will enter production when fully tested and approved. It is anticipated that the board revision will offer further hardware optimizations and power efficiencies and based on the initial simulations it will permit us to hit our initial performance target of 2TH/s.

We expect to post the next update as soon as we’ve received certification early next week and begin delivery.