Topic: Collecting Community input needed>> Definitions used in our unique hobby (Read 975 times)

what about considering "Custom Design"?

willi9974 has a coin currently which offers ^limitedcustom design
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/sale-40mm-x-3mm-30g-bitcoin-coin-loadable-and-customizable-coin-5382457

  Hi Bobby, Thanks for taking the time to do this...I will add to the OP once I am home on my safe PC and use my krogothmanhattan login. It looks good.

I did a little bit of refining (although ranges of visual conditions are still lacking) which brings the overall grading to way more realistic results... you'll see at the example coin ;-)
Any suggestions, correction of spelling errors, definitions I might still get totally wrong are very welcome!



So there occure several changes to the example coin: C-BTC-CF-2-4+-3

"2" because I used 07/2015 as starting point (like Denarium states on their homepage to have started funding their coins), close to 7 years in business with no databreaches or open issues known to me means 3 steps up the trust-ladder. As much as I like the idea of open look-up databases... it makes the addresses prone to dust-transactions (which isn't affecting the rating for now).

"4+" is self-explaing.

"3" because of lack of meaningful divisions => the coin is as good as it can be (in relative terms a "0") although I'm fully aware that in other series other standards apply... like "Polished Plate - PP" an loads of other numismatic terms.

edit: even the smallest mistake is important here and needs to be corrected ;-)

Hi guys.....wow...I completely forgot about this...will update soon.

  Its funny in 2017 I met a bunch of guys from here and I made custom made posters for them as follows...








    I have also used similar to poster in the back of my new coin..

    Di you HODL or have you SODL your bitcoin

     

Krog,

This is a great thread and a good project.

Looks like the lion share of terms are indentified at this point. However, I would add 'custom' to the this. A couple of creators (and coincidentally you can see an example of this in the picture above of the Denarium. Custom value is obvious to us as synonymous with buyer funded, however, it is worth noting it for the sake of orienting new people in the hobby. I find that the un-initiated are confused by what Custom Value means.

Steeley

HODL vs. SODL => "The key to HODL is knowing when to SODL" (from medium.com)
FODL => if you sell BTC, you are basically FODLing (in the medium to long run)
A NODL is this full node: https://www.nodl.it/
And BUIDL (I believe Vitalik came up with this term...) has been touted by crypto advocates as the thing people in the crypto space should really be focusing on.


Taking the BUIDL part more serious I worked out a draft of a collectible-grading-standard because coin-grading became a noticeably important topic recently. It can be applied by anybody at home, is easy recognisable and goal is getting similar results, regardless of who is grading.
Intention behind such a self-developed standard is, not to wait for grading-services to come up with anything; rather exactly the other way around => making others adopt "our" community developed standard because already the knowledge of a handful OGs here outperformes easily what not orange-pilled coin-graders ever will know.... and as a community I'm pretty sure we can judge (maybe by voting) truthfully and fair where assessments ned to be done... but have a look by yourself, I'm curious what you think about it...



Edit 4 example:



Denarium Custom Gold Plated 2018 - F0130
1266 coins produced
CoA: unopened/original packaging + receipt
Buyer funded with 0,01BTC
No fotos or copies of the pubKey anywhere ;-)

According to the above rules grading would be: C-BTC-BF-1-3-0

...while the "1" is my personal opinion about Denarium... in practice exactly here we should find a common and fair ground together (maybe by voting, maybe by all the experiences we allready have).

You calling me son and not willing to share the wealth??  

P.S. will delete all these useless but fun comments after 24hrs if people like, since they are not related to the topic..

And this does kind of prove my point
To find opinions of graders you have to go to page 2 of a discussion about definitions.
To then find out more specific information on things that ANACS has graded you have to click on one of the links that krogoth put in his reply.
There is no place that really says new people click here.
Anybody want to buy an original Ravenbit sticker. It's graded DF68


-Dave

Got an address for where they are locked up?? 

Just the simple fact I have to send my coins to be graded thru a postal system or courier for that matter and there is a chance damage or loss can happen, makes me shudder!

Never gonna happen with my coins. Locked away they are and locked away they shall stay. Or buried  

If you really want to store them in a nice holder, why waste your money for grading, plenty of other exact same holders available to store the coins safely. But I do see your point it's a matter for satisfaction for few.

You're not wrong. PCGS and NGC are absolutely the pinnacle of coin graders..but they won't touch our coins..yet (I'm working on them). ICG and ANACS are honestly more of a "hold over" for me. Neither are up there w/NGC or PCGS but at least they're grading our coins. It's nice to have your coin graded, though I like it more so just as a great capsule to protect my coins with a side benefit of grading that is "mostly accurate". If NGC or PCGS did ever start grading, I'd crack my coins out of the other graders and get them re-graded.

For me frankly, coming from the world for collectibles of Gold and Silver coins. PCGS and NGC are the benchmark, certain people do like ANACS due to their historical presence, but ICG is used by some small time dealers who like to scam collectors by showing higher grade. To me ICG is just there to make money from the items that PCGS and NGC don't accept or get rejected or grade extremely poor. I would rather have my coins in original packaging than sending to ICG.

Coming on this forum lot of people convinced me that ICG was infact great but one of the coins I recently received which was MS69 from ICG, looking at it closer at the coin store with some high tech devices, it couldn't be more than 60 or 62 that too if PCGS or NGC are even accepting these coins.


Another concern I have specially with loaded coins that gets graded, specially a company like ICG, I don't think they have the expertise like some of our forum members(krogothmanhattan, MJ, and few more) in checking the holograms seals and all. If I peel off the hologram unload the coin, stick back the hologram, do you think ICG will catch it everytime? I don't think so. This is one of the reason they are saying on their slabs that they don't guarantee or check for the loaded value.

I am sorry my fellow collectors, it might be bitter truth about ICG, but it's true, you can cross check that at any of your local coin dealers.

  Look at the thread I made https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/info-breached-or-scam-coin-makers-list-3315347

 Also look at the Sol Noctis fake that was graded.

  You can also dig in here for any coin... another thread of mine https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/reference-past-collectable-auction-or-selling-prices-with-links-5130318

  And here are the killyou graded coins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--2654522

  Graded Satori Chips https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2017-Satori-Japan-0-001-BTC-BCH-Bitcoin-Token-PRE-FORK-Poker-Chip-ANACS-MS-69-/202665545278?oid=163612737442

  Great comments all around on your post by the way.

This just came up in a different forum about regular silver coins.

Short version:
Do we need a "graded reliable" and "graded unreliable"

Long version:
Do we need / should we have a discussion out here in public, probably on a separate thread about the "quality" or "accuracy" of coin grading houses in regard to cryptos?
If we know "A" will grade something that has been driven over by a UPS truck with a MS65 but "B" will kick it back to you with a comment of *hell no* scribbled on the receipt should this information be more accessible?

As krogothmanhattan said about checking the load of a coin. Caveat Emptor!  BUT, if without digging through 100s of posts it becomes almost impossible. Even with a bit of digging I still don't know who graded the killyou coin.

Dave's logic behind making this more public --> Anything we can do to help remove scammers is good. Anything we can do to make scammers lives more difficult is good. If a new person does not know and does not look to find out that's on them.  If they don't know and we do but don't tell them and make it difficult to find out, that's on us.

Counter argument --> We are not your mom. It's not our job. 

Sorry for the rambling, but someone on the silver forum just did a test with PCGS grading and it ended...poorly...lets leave it at that.

-Dave

Add collectibles.
unique community, yes!
input needed thanks.

  Great point!  What defines rare?

More ramblings.
What is a limited edition? / Low production?
100? 1000? 10000? 1000000?
There are 7 billion+ people in the world. If I make 10K or 100k or 10 million of something that everyone wants it's all a limited edition.
Crypto collectables is a much smaller pool, but once again as a small sampling of the group we might want to start coming up with our own standard of what is limited. 50? 100?

Might be worth a discussion.

-Dave

Then they would run the risk of getting less for the coin.

2 identical coins go up.

One is like mine smoothie --> Me
The other is smoothie --> Them --> grading house --> someone else --> MJ doing the auction for them so they can remain unknown.

To some people having it graded is going to be worth more, to others knowing only 2 people have touched it is worth more.

-Dave
 

  Good point..in other words Provenance=the place of origin or earliest known history of something.

  I like the idea very much..but what if you find people whom do not wish it to be known they were the sellers of such coin?

  And the idea of sending any of my coins to be graded was never high in my list of things to do.

  a) Do not trust the postal system to deliver
  b) Do not trust the grading that much after I saw them grade a killyou, satori chips and fake coins.
  c) And now this that you bring up. Which is an excellent point! The more hands a coin has seen the better the chances of an issue of a breach. As far fetched as that may sound, its always a possibility.


 
   Yes virgin coin as in BTCC coins which I think are so unique in that aspect making them stand out for that feature of having freshly Minted/Virgin coins!

- Redeemed / Peeled / Swept
- SHA-256 Private Key
- Mintage
- DIY
- GILT
- COA / Certificate of Authenticity
- Grading Services (ANACS / ICG)
- Freshly Minted Bits (BTCC)

Another thought, and I have to have to think it but there is at times significant dollar value attached to some of these things. Should there be a standard description for original owner / re-sale coins. And where they have been.

I have a 1 oz Silver Gold-plated 1 BTC Lealana Bitcoin. It's mine, I bought it straight from smoothie I sent funding to the address that smoothie sent me. If I sell it to you and there is an issue with the funding there is a short list of where it happened. With security holos not being perfect and with a real fiat value being attached to BTC there is a real risk of people being scummy. Think about it BTC goes back to over $15k usd. I decide to be evil, I can probably replicate the hologram for under $2500 for a perfect copy. I pull the private key and put it back.

I sell it for BTC1.25 here. And wait 90 days. I then pull the BTC / BCH / every other fork. There is a good chain of custody smoothie --> me --> you. You might not win in court but you would have a good case against me. That is IF you actually notice. How often do you check the loads on your coins?

Take the auction I am bidding on now. I don't know if Lesbian Cow the original owner. If not how many hands did this coin pass through? It's been graded, if some really dishonest person was working at any of the grading houses they might have ROLLS of copies of all the holograms of the popular manufacturers and have a notebook filled with private keys. Next time BTC passes $20k they are living in a tropical paradise in a country with no extradition.

I hate having to think about this but every I buy I funded coin this goes through my brain.

So back to the original thought of this post. Do we need a term for chain of custody of the coins that are / can be loaded?
 
-Dave

korns = Bitcoin

I really like this ideas and will definitely add some more after I read through everyone elses.

I think you mean coinfusion

coinfusion
//kɔɪnˈfjuːʒ(ə)n/

1. Doubt, lack of clarity or uncertainty about what is happening, intended or required, relating specifically to physical crypto coins.

P.S love the initiative

   I look at Bitcoin as a currency and thus when Bitbills and Casascius made their idea of Bitcoin into Physical Bitcoins it was not just as collectables but I assume also a way to trade Bitcoin in person without have to register its transaction on Blockchain. Also Casascius wanted to educate people on making it easier for them to understand it in physical form when for some it was hard to grasp Bitcoin in digital format.

   And yes these have turned out as collectables as well, so have Fiat currency coins, they are both collectable items and real currencycoins as well.



Agree Dave...I wouldnt trust what is written on a sale or auction. I would always check the loading date when it comes to this.
             But then again, I wouldnt be bidding on any coin with the other coins in mind as they are not part of any survivor equation
             that I think will be around in the future. When I bid only keep BTC in mind and not the rest. But still a good point.As they
             say in Latin caveat emptor, buyer beware...do your due diligence. ALWAYS.
            
             Agree...the word shit not be used. Perhaps we should just say has Bitcoin and all the other forked BTC versions instead.

 


        Great points. I think it depends on what level of a collector you see yourself on accepting in your collection.

        If for example I had to choose a Casascius coin loaded by Mike himself or a Cas coin loaded by someone else, I would choose the one by Mike.

        For instance, many people were not aware of loadiing dates either until Monkeynuts posted the auction a few weeks back. As a collector I was always

        looking at loading dates alongside the condition. I would not want to buy a 2011 coin loaded in  2012. Most people dont care. I do.

        I am also a philatelist and in that hobby, there are stamps have what we call CTO, cancelled to order. This is when the post office cancels the stamp

       with a fancy cancel and the stamp and envelope never goes to its destination but rather given to the collector directly. It is used.

        As a die hard stamp collector I would buy the one that was genuinly cancelled and sent thru the mail rather than CTO which is geared for collectors.

       SO it all on how you want to build your collection. I am very conscious of these little things that make the world of a difference for me., but maybe not for

        others.

      
    Agrawas...alway always...check for yourself. Very easy to do. And yes the seller should say loaded or unloaded, but they can also make mistakes.
              Again buyer beware.  Same thing goes for coin makers who have been breached or have shady reps...should that be included in the OP?
              Example, Alitin coin...if a loaded coin comes up like it has on Ebay, I think the seller shouldve mentioned the coin maker had a major breach.
              But he didnt even though I POINTED IT OUT to him. You find honest people and dishonest. Again like to todl Dave F, Caveat Emptor!

              I made the thread that is pinned to the top of our collectable section to make newbies aware of what is out there as I dont think its fair they do not  know. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/info-breached-or-scam-coin-makers-list-3315347

              Great posts by everyone, Thankyou!  Will update the OP with more definitions!

        
        

One thing that would always help the newbies and even others would be when anyone posts the coin for sale, I know they put seller funded/Buyer Funded, but very often it happens where I don't see if it's actually funded or not. If they can clearly say if it's funded with so and so amount. or simply that it is not funded, so we know if we are bidding on loaded or unloaded coin.

I actually bought couple of coins because of that confusion and turned out they weren't funded, but didn't wanted to argue or return to seller since I should have done more research and ask questions.

I am going to have to disagree with you on that a least a bit.

I have been buying from you / trading with you for a while. What if it turns out that Mantis coins that you were funding were coming from BTC that you had stolen?
(Yes I know you are not a crook and you are not funding coins it's just an example) But it might matter down the road. It's easy to say it's like cash. But we all know it's not.
I know that if I have to peel & redeem the coins that I funded I know more or less whe-re it came from (mining / exchanges). For the BTC that I buy and sell stuff with it's very fast and loose. Sell some hardware, buy some coins, sell some other collectables buy some others, whatever. For the coins I have bought loaded it's a bit more fuzzy.

What happens if it turns out that CryptoImperator (just picking another coin maker out of thin air) was actually laundering money for a crime ring? You sent him your nice clean coins, he loaded the coin he sent you with some extortion BTC do you care?

This is probably taking this WAY off of where krogothmanhattan wanted but it is something to think about.

-Dave

Some more thoughts:

Buyer funded / seller funded. I think we all know what they mean but a clear hard line might be good. Not sure if it matters but:

krogoth makes a coin. It's a 1BTC sells it for unfunded for .1BTC
If it ships to me and I put 1BTC that's buyer funded.
If it pay 1.1BTC and it ships to me that is seller funded.
If I pay .1BTC to krogoth and send 1BTC to an address that was given is that buyer or seller funded? Logic would dictate that it's buyer funded I put the funds on.
Now before it ships wheelz1200 sends me a PM saying I'll give you 1.2BTC for it (thanks wheelz) and krogoth ships it.

A year later that coin goes up for sale.
Is it buyer funded or self funded or just plain funded?
Where do we draw the line? Do we care?
Down the road will it matter?


Complete / incomplete. A lot of times coins come with stuff. Take a look at my failed auction here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/raffle-2014-ravenbit-node-r-coin-00015-per-spot-5125972
It has the coin, the holos, the bag, the stand, the sticker. Is it complete? It does not have the envelope with the logo that ravenbit shipped the coins in.(I have since found it but that's another story) But at what point does it matter / make a difference. But I do know that I will bid a bit more if it has all the stuff. [BitcoinPenny Doodles are a good example]

-Dave

Breached or possibly breached - Any coin listed on your thread about them. Don't know if there is a better explanation then that. We all know what it means, but there is no hard and fast rule about it.

ShitcoinForks - Same as above. There is no standard, usually means loaded after the Aug 1 2017 BCH fork but before the Oct 24 2017 BTG fork.
However different people see it differently and "all shit forks" means pre Aug 1. We should probably come up with a standard at least within the forum.
Even I am forced to check when someone posts. I am now actively bidding on something that was listed as "Has all the shitforks" but was loaded Dec 11th 2017 which means no BTG, BCX, BTD. I really don't care, but someone else who did not check the date is was loaded might.

And we might want to use something other then the word shit.

-Dave

I refer to loaded items like Casascius or Lealana as coins and unloaded like the Killyou Koinz as Tokens or Medals.  Similar to regular coins/rounds ; if they have a denomination  it is a coin, if it is private issue it is a round.

I agree with Wheelz, as shit as shit coins come..bcash is the only fork worth “caring about”.

Wallet Cards (NFC, scratch off, security hologram) - physical plastic wallets in card form such as BitBills.

Paper Wallet - while a generic term, paper wallets like Poly and Suisse etc are their own thing too.  

(Physical)Crypto Art- art containing keys such as cryptoart.com collectibles and cryptografitti works

Cold Storage coins - self explanatory

Physical Crypto Bars- Casascius, Kialara, Finite By Design, BigTimeSpaghetti, CoinPlus

Hardware Wallets? Not sure if it fits what you’re looking for

Hardware Wallet Cards- Gox, Mycelium etc

Crypto hardware Yubikeys - Gox etc

Crypto Bullion - self explanatory

Commemorative Bitcoin coins - reaching probably here / same as token maybe  


Will continue this list as I think of stuff (disclaimer -this list may be pure shit..I just kinda went for it lol). Man I’m a nerd.

I always consider post fork as meaning loaded after the bcash fork.  I dont specify which other forks are included, so to make it easy, prefork contains bcash postfork does not.

Edit: and for coin I wouldn't say it's used as money rather a collectable which may or may not contain a specific amount of bitcoin since none of these coins are used as a monetary unit.

Reserved....

Let the fireworks start

      Would like to make a list of definitions we use in our unique hobby
for both new people and seasoned collectors alike.


       And what better place than ask the most seasoned and knowledgeable
people in the Physical Bitcoin Cryptoverse than here?


       That being said...I have listed some definitions down below that
some will agree with and I know others will not. These are my opinions
and thus would like everyone's input as I know there will be lots of disagreements.

          So I welcome everyone 's feedback as it is important not just for
myself...but for everyone else.

        I will only be referring to Bitcoin coins or tokens.



Unloaded...Loadable and no crypto ever loaded onto paper wallet under hologram.

Loaded...Has digital Bitcoin loaded inside paper wallet under hologram.

Peeled coin....Security hologram removed and coin swept from paper wallet...thus private
key exposed. This will essentially transform the Physical Bitcoin coin into
a Bitcoin token.

Breached or possibly breached - [REFERENCE] Breached or Scam coin makers list

Token...symbolic of the item they represent.

Custom value is obvious to us as synonymous with buyer funded

Coin a flat, typically round piece of metal with an official stamp, used as money, in our case digital money.

Bitcoin token ...symbolic of bitcoin only..no digital value loaded. A
token that cannot be loaded with bitcoin or is unloaded...but has a bitcoin symbol on its
face..not loadable or unloaded.

Physical Bitcoin coin:  A coin representing Bitcoin with a paper wallet or any other device loaded with digital Bitcoin in it.
   This usually in most cases contains a security hologram covering the loaded paper wallet or even an NFC device.

To me.....a coin with a btc logo is not a Physical Bitcoin coin..it's a
token..in other words...cannot be used as a means of paying in Bitcoin or as a currency exchange using bitcoin.
A loaded coin can...ex...digital btc exchanged in person without going thru
blockchain. If coin is lost..so is the bitcoin. Unique in the history of coins.

So if an unloaded Bitcoin token has a holo with a loadable paperwallet and
is then loaded with digital bitcoin it will be thus be transformed in to a
Physical Bitcoin coin.
Example...an unloaded Casascius..would become a Physical Bitcoin coin once
loaded.

To me...the definition of a physical bitcoin coin is when a coin has digital btc loaded into
it..ex...Casascius.
     Physical Bitcoin card ..ex...Bitbills.

  Conversely , a Physical Bitcoin coin  peeled and swept will transform into a Bitcoin token.

  
Hologram..security hologram concealing private key but allowing partial or
full public key to be exposed thru hologram.

Firsbits...partial first 5 to 6. Letters or numbers exposed from paper
wallet public key..allowing user to verify loading of coin using blockchain.

Prefork loaded ..loaded before Aug 1st 2017 and containing all coins after
the fork.

Post fork loaded...does not contain all the forked coins the prefork coins
have.

Chip...Physical or Bitcoin token resembles a poker chip in the way its made.

Wallet Cards (NFC, scratch off, security hologram) - physical plastic wallets in card form such as BitBills.

Paper Wallet - while a generic term, paper wallets like Poly and Suisse etc are their own thing too.  Huh

(Physical)Crypto Art- art containing keys such as cryptoart.com collectibles and cryptografitti works

Cold Storage coins - self explanatory

Physical Crypto Bars- Casascius, Kialara, Finite By Design, BigTimeSpaghetti, CoinPlus

Hardware Wallets? Not sure if it fits what you’re looking for

Hardware Wallet Cards- Gox, Mycelium etc

Crypto hardware Yubikeys - Gox etc

Crypto Bullion - self explanatory

Commemorative Bitcoin coins - reaching probably here / same as token maybe  


HODL vs. SODL => "The key to HODL is knowing when to SODL" (from medium.com)
FODL => if you sell BTC, you are basically FODLing (in the medium to long run)
A NODL is this full node: https://www.nodl.it/
BUIDL (I believe Vitalik came up with this term...) has been touted by crypto advocates as the thing people in the crypto space should really be focusing on.

- Redeemed / Peeled / Swept
- SHA-256 Private Key
- Mintage
- DIY
- GILT
- COA / Certificate of Authenticity
- Grading Services (ANACS / ICG)
- Freshly Minted Bits (BTCC) or Virgin BTC