Communism vs Free World= Kamala vs Trump.

Poker Player

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 29, 2024, 01:54:58 PM

Never claimed he isn't running legitimately. I'm trying to convince you that Trump is a existential threat to the country and none of Harris' policies come close to posing the same threat to democracy.

And why do you try so hard? I think you notice that I'm not the typical TROLLDecker and that I have more brains.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 29, 2024, 11:35:48 AM

Ok, you don't like Dick Cheney. Is that really reason to assume that the 4 star generals who served as Trumps Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Sec of Defense, Sec of Homeland Security and Chief of Staff are lying or confused when they say Trump is a literal fascist?

Fascism, Communism, just different paths to the same outcome, agree?

Yes, in fact, fascism is not so far apart from communism either. The creator came from the Italian socialist party and did not practice in his politics the principles of the Austrian school of economics precisely.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 29, 2024, 01:54:58 PM

Am I changing your mind at all? Just a little?

Yes, okay, a little. But I come back to the same thing as before. If Trump dies after taking office, you think Vance's policies are going to be much different? I care more about his policies than Trump.

Edit: to try to keep TwitchySeal from having a heart attack, as I think every time he sees the title of this thread his heart races, I'm going to lock this thread and we can continue related discussions in the betting thread.

BADecker

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Quote from: Dominatordom on October 30, 2024, 04:58:12 AM

Quote from: ? on October 27, 2024, 06:51:25 AM

i love the Communism
Kamala go Kamala go

Have you lived under communism and in a communist country to say that?

Many people have died in the free world. Just look at how full the cemeteries are.

Cool

Dominatordom

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Quote from: ? on October 27, 2024, 06:51:25 AM

i love the Communism
Kamala go Kamala go

Have you lived under communism and in a communist country to say that?

BADecker

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Smart people are dropping Cabala, even if it hurts a little.

After "Colossal" Exodus Of Subscribers, WaPo Boss Bezos Explains "The Hard Truth

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/colossal-mass-exodus-over-200000-wapo-subscriber-cancellations-after-bezos-blocks-harris
In what is likely even more harrowing for the Op-Ed editors at The Washington Post, Jeff Bezos has just penned an explainer for his decision to not allow the liberal rag to endorse Kamala.

We present the opinion piece here in full (with some emphasis by us) - this is shocking levels of honesty!

The hard truth: Americans don't trust the news media

The credibility gap can be bridged by independence.

In the annual public surveys about trust and reputation, journalists and the media have regularly fallen near the very bottom, often just above Congress. But in this year's Gallup poll, we have managed to fall below Congress. Our profession is now the least trusted of all. Something we are doing is clearly not working.

Let me give an analogy. Voting machines must meet two requirements. They must count the vote accurately, and people must believe they count the vote accurately. The second requirement is distinct from and just as important as the first.

Likewise with newspapers. We must be accurate, and we must be believed to be accurate. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but we are failing on the second requirement. Most people believe the media is biased. Anyone who doesn't see this is paying scant attention to reality, and those who fight reality lose. Reality is an undefeated champion. It would be easy to blame others for our long and continuing fall in credibility (and, therefore, decline in impact), but a victim mentality will not help. Complaining is not a strategy. We must work harder to control what we can control to increase our credibility.

Presidential endorsements do nothing to tip the scales of an election. No undecided voters in Pennsylvania are going to say, "I'm going with Newspaper A's endorsement." None. What presidential endorsements actually do is create a perception of bias. A perception of non-independence. Ending them is a principled decision, and it's the right one. Eugene Meyer, publisher of The Washington Post from 1933 to 1946, thought the same, and he was right. By itself, declining to endorse presidential candidates is not enough to move us very far up the trust scale, but it's a meaningful step in the right direction. I wish we had made the change earlier than we did, in a moment further from the election and the emotions around it. That was inadequate planning, and not some intentional strategy.
...

TwitchySeal

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Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Quote from: Poker Player on October 29, 2024, 11:35:48 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 27, 2024, 06:15:48 PM

But are we on the same page that if the letter is accurate, and this is truly the opinion of these life long republicans that worked in Trumps first administration, then Trump != Free World.

Didn't you post the link because you got it from Fox? Lol

I think I got it from Politico. Every major media outlet has reported on it.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 29, 2024, 11:35:48 AM

We are on the same page that if what the letter says is true, then Trump is not fit to be president for a second term. But that's a big if. However, I don't agree that if the letter is true the USA is going to be more or less free because he is not going to have absolute power

When you call Kamala a communist, you're trying to argue that she will lead the country down the path to Authoritarianism. But her policies just aren't that radical and the democrats have made a significant shift towards the right over the past 4 years. Im not saying you have to agree with them, but if you look around the world or even American History, nothing she has proposed is out of line.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 29, 2024, 11:35:48 AM

But you know what I'm basing it on to say that it's legitimate for him to run?

Never claimed he isn't running legitimately. I'm trying to convince you that Trump is a existential threat to the country and none of Harris' policies come close to posing the same threat to democracy.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 29, 2024, 11:35:48 AM

I already told you that Trump is not my cup of tea but I would also like to know the degree of veracity that we can give to this from an objective point of view, which is going to be impossible, because for example other Republicans who are against Trump are the Cheney, and being that Dick Cheney is a fucking liar swindler and genocidal liar who has no qualms in inventing lies to kill millions of people as long as it brings him profits, well what they can say about Trump I do not see it very credible.

Ok, you don't like Dick Cheney. Is that really reason to assume that the 4 star generals who served as Trumps Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Sec of Defense, Sec of Homeland Security and Chief of Staff are lying or confused when they say Trump is a literal fascist?

Fascism, Communism, just different paths to the same outcome, agree?

I bet all the conservatives from every previous Republican administration and Republican Campaign Nominee since Nixon that signed this letter also don't like Kamala's economic policies. This is not normal.

Quote

Four years ago, President George W. Bush, the late Sen. John McCain, and then-Gov. Mitt Romney alumni came together to warn fellow Republicans that re-electing President Trump would be a disaster for our nation. In those declarations we stated the plain truth, each predicting that another four years of a Trump presidency would irreparably damage our beloved democracy.

We reunite today, joined by new Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush alumni, to reinforce our 2020 statements and, for the first time, jointly declare that we’re voting for Vice President Kamala Harris and Gov. Tim Walz this November.

Of course, we have plenty of honest, ideological disagreements with Vice President Harris and Gov. Walz. That’s to be expected. The alternative, however, is simply untenable.

At home, another four years of Donald Trump’s chaotic leadership, this time focused on advancing the dangerous goals of Project 2025, will hurt real, everyday people and weaken our sacred institutions.

Abroad, democratic movements will be irreparably jeopardized as Trump and his acolyte JD Vance kowtow to dictators like Vladimir Putin while turning their backs on our allies.

We can’t let that happen.

We know now, thanks to exit polling and voter data, that it was moderate Republicans and conservative independents in key swing states that ultimately delivered the presidency to Joe Biden—honest, hardworking Americans in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona, and beyond that put country far before party.

We’re heartfully calling on these friends, colleagues, neighbors, and family members to take a brave stand once more, to vote for leaders that will strive for consensus, not chaos; that will work to unite, not divide; that will make our country and our children proud.

Those leaders are Vice President Kamala Harris and Gov. Tim Walz.

Signed by:

Code:

Emily Abell

Advertising Production Manager & Assistant to the Director Strategy, McCain for President 2008

Carol Adelman

USAID Assistant Administrator, Ronald Reagan Administration

Ken Adelman

US Ambassador to the UN & US Arms Control Director, Ronald Reagan Administration

Chad Adler

Finance Intern, Mitt Romney for President 2012

David Almacy

White House Internet Director, George W. Bush Administration

Melanie Anne Alvord

Assistant Administrator for Communications, FAA (DOT), George W. Bush Administration

Emily Apte

Associate Director Speechwriting, EOP, George W. Bush Administration

Donald Ayer

Deputy Attorney General (1989-90), Department of Justice, George H.W. Bush Administration

Philip Baker-Shenk

General Counsel, Chairman John McCain, Senate Committee on Indian Affairs

Kimmie Balz (Lipscomb)

Director of Press Advance for McCain, White House Press Office for Bush

Ashley Banister

Special Assistant, DOI Advisor for Alaska Policy, George W. Bush Administration

Michael C. Barnes

Confidential Counsel, Executive Office of the President, Office of National Drug Control Policy, George W. Bush Administration

Beverly Barrett

Special Assistant for Cabinet Affairs, George W. Bush Administration

Bruce Bartlett

Senior Policy Analyst, Office of Policy Development, The White House, 1987-88; Deputy Assistant Secretary, Office of Economic Policy, Treasury Department, 1988-92.

Andrea G Barthwell

Deputy Director, Demand Reduction, ONDCP, George W. Bush Administration

Raegan Bartlo

Communications Specialist, USDA, President George W. Bush

Christopher Barton

Director, National Security Council; Chief Counsel for House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, George W. Bush Administration

Jean Becker

Chief of Staff, 1994-2018, George H.W. Bush

David Bentley

Legislative Staff Assistant, Sen. John McCain

Catherine Bertini

Assistant Secretary, Food & Consumer Services, USDA, George H.W. Bush Administration

Brandon B. Beshears

Confidential Assistant, USDA, George W. Bush Administration

Tomás Bilbao

Deputy Director of Operations at HUD, George W. Bush Administration

Vicki Blanton

Director of Scheduling, Mitt Romney for President 2012

David Blaszkowsky

Director, Office of Interactive Disclosure, SEC, George W. Bush Administration

Elizabeth Board

Deputy Assistant to the President for Communications, Director Media Relations Office, Ronald Reagan White House

Jeffrey Bobeck

Director of External Affairs, Dept of Energy, 2007-2009, George W. Bush Administration

Lisa Boepple

Administrative Assistant, Congressman John McCain, 1983-1986, Legislative Director, Office of Senator John McCain, 1987-1988

Barrick Bollman

Site Advance, Mitt Romney for President 2012

Roger Bolton

Special Assistant to the President in the Office of Public Liaison; Assistant U.S. Trade Representative for Public Affairs, Reagan Administration. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Public Affairs and Private Sector Liaison, George H.W. Bush Administration

John E. Bowman

Assistant General Counsel for Banking and Finance, Department of the Treasury (Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush Administrations)

Thomas Bowman

Assistant Staff Secretary, The White House, President George W. Bush

Erin Bradley

Director, Office of Ann Romney, Romney for President 2012

Sally S. Bradshaw

Associate Director of Political Affairs, White House, George H.W. Bush Administration; Chief of Staff, Governor Jeb Bush

Barbara Brady Stober

Michigan Branch County Chair for Romney for President 2012

Joe Brezny

Nevada State Director, Romney for President 2008

Greg Brower

U.S. Attorney for the District of Nevada

Jamie Brown

Special Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs, President George W. Bush

Robert W. Brown III

North Carolina State Director, John McCain for President

Steven Brykman

Sr. Digital Strategist, Office of Gov. Mitt Romney

Max Buccini

The White House, Press Office, President George W. Bush

Lance Bultena

Counsel, Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation

Meghann Burger Wilson

Executive Assistant, DHS; Executive Assistant, Department of Treasury, International Affairss; Executive Assistant, DoD, Acquisition and Technology

Gahl Burt

White House Social Secretary, Ronald Reagan White House; Surrogate Coordinator, McCain for President 2008

Ellen Cahill

Scheduler/Executive Assistant, Sen. John McCain

Brian Cairns

Director of White House Writers, President George W. Bush

Caitlin Callahan McBride

Lead Advance Coordinator, McCain-Palin 2008

Sally Canfield

Domestic Policy Adviser, Bush 2000; Policy Director, Romney for President 2008

Jason Carroll

State & Local Coordinator, Intergovernmental Affairs, U.S. Department of Homeland Security

Ed Cash

Director of Intergovernmental Affairs, Department of Homeland Security

William Cervin

RNC/WH Office of Political Affairs, SECAF/GC, OSD Policy

Barbara C. Chaffee

Special Assistant to the President; Senior Director, Public Liaison, Office of Homeland Security, George W. Bush Administration

Nicole Chmura

Director of Media Relations, Political Appointee, Department of Housing and Urban Development, President George W. Bush

David Clark

Deputy Assistant to the President for Presidential Personnel, The White House, President George W. Bush

Patrick Coady

US Executive Director, World Bank, George H.W. Bush Administration

Benedict S. Cohen

General Counsel, Department of the Army; Deputy General Counsel, Department of Defense; Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Department of Justice, George W. Bush Administration

Laura Clarke Coleman

Director, Donor Relations and Services, Romney for President 2012

Mike Collins

RNC Press Secretary, NRCC Deputy Communications Director , House Commerce Commiittee Communications Director

Heath Clayton

Special Project Coordinator, The White House, President George W. Bush

Robert Cohen

Advance Staff, McCain for President 2008

Richele Cole Burch

72 Hour Coordinator, WV GOP Victory 2004, President George W. Bush

Jill Collins

2000 GOP Convention, 2021 Inaugural Committee, VP advance, President George W. Bush

Daniel Connor

Presidential Helicopter Pilot/Marine One, President George W. Bush

B. Jay Cooper

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Matt Coote

Ground Operations Coordinator, Romney for President 2012

James Dalthorp, Jr

Communications / Content and Adverting Team, Romney for President 2012

Craig Daniel

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Katie Daryl

Communications Dept. (Intern), Sen. John McCain

Suzy DeFrancis

Deputy Assistant to the President for Communications; Assistant Secretary Public Affairs HHS, President George W. Bush

Doug Denneny

Military Legislative Fellow, Sen. John McCain

Stephen W. DeVine

Deputy Legal Advisor, National Security Council, George W. Bush Administration

Murray Dickman

Chief of Staff to the Attorney General, Department of Justice, George H.W. Bush Administration

Jennifer Dodds

Lead Digital Producer, Romney for President 2012

Joe Donoghue

Legislative Director, Office of Sen. John McCain

Lauren Dorff

Outreach Coordinator for the FBCI USAID, George W. Bush Administration

Eric Earling

Deputy Secretary’s Regional Representative, US Department of Education, President George W. Bush

Eric D Eberhead

Staff Director and Chief Counsel Senate Committee on Indian Affairs

Daniel Edwards

Intern, Sen. John McCAIN

Rachel Escue

National Nurse Liaison, John McCain for President

Jon Evans

Deputy Director of Content, Romney for President 2012

Stacia S. Feinberg

Staff Assistant to VP Quayle and Volunteer Coordinator, McCain for President 2008

Todd Ferrara

Special Assistant to US Secretary of Agriculture, George W. Bush Administration

Matthew Filter

Legislative Assistant, Sen. John McCain

Steve Fong

Special Assistant, U.S. Department of Transportation, George W. Bush Administration

Jon Fortin

Special Assistant, Department of the Treasury, George W. Bush Administration

Andy Foster

Associate Director, White House Office of Political Affairs, George H.W. Bush Administration

Charles C. Foster

Immigration Policy Advisor, George W. Bush Administration

Sara Frankfurt Gail

Executive Assistant, Director’s Office, OMB, George W. Bush Administration

Emil Frankel

Assistant Secretary for Transportation Policy, Department of Transportation, George W. Bush Administration

Rob Freeman

Deputy Staff Director, Senate Commerce Committee, Sen. John McCain

Daniel Fridman

Senior Counsel to the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, George W. Bush Administration

Jessica Furey

US EPA, Associate Administrator, Office of Policy, Economics & Innovation, George W. Bush Administration

Mark Gage

Senior Advisor, State Department Bureau of European Affairs, George W. Bush Administration; Republican Deputy Chief of Staff, House Foreign Affairs Committee

Reed Galen

Director of Scheduling and Advance, Bush-Cheney '04 and Deputy Campaign Manager, John McCain for President

Judy Gamboa

Volunteer Coordinator, McCain for President 2000

Diana Gardner

Fundraising/Budget Manager, Bush-Cheney 2004; Direct Response Director, McCain 2008

John Gardner

Deputy Assistant to the President; General Counsel, USAID; Governor, US Postal Service, George W. Bush Administration

David Garman

Undersecretary of Energy, George W. Bush Administration

Kelly Ganzberger

Assistant to the Chief Counsel, George W. Bush Administration

Abel Guerra

George W. Bush for President; George W. Bush Administration

Thomas J. Gibson, Jr

Chief of Staff, US Environmental Protection Agency; McCain for President 2000, Policy teams; Advance SC & VA

Frank Gifford Scholley

Volunteer, McCain for President 2000

Jonathan Glick

Operations & Advance, McCain for President 2008 & Romney for President 2012

Juleanna Glover

Press Aide, McCain for President 2008

Anthony Golia

Advance, Romney for President 2012

Gina Gormley Fong

Former State Director, former Director of Constituent Services, Office of Senator John McCain

Felice Gorordo

Bush White House Office of Political Affairs (2003), Bush-Cheney Campaign (2004); Bush presidential appointee at the U.S. Departments of Commerce, State and Homeland Security (2005-2007)

Joe Greeley

Production Manager, Romney for President 2012

Peter Gregory

Law Students for McCain, National Steering Committee, John McCain for President

Charles Grizzle

Assistant Administrator, EPA, George H.W. Bush Administration

Deb Gullett

Administrative Assistant, Sen. John McCain

Wes Gullett

State Director, Sen. John McCain

Jimmy Gurulé

Under Secretary (Enforcement), U.S. Department of Treasury (2001-2003), George W. Bush Administration

John Hadlock

Deputy State Manager, North Carolina, Romney for President 2012

Mark Hancock

Television Manager, Romney for President 2012

Benjamin Haney

Advance, McCain for President

Serenety Hanley

White House Internet Director; EPA Director of Web Communications, George W. Bush Administration; RNC Political Technology Director

Michele Hannegan

Communications Director, CEQ - Council on Environmental Quality, George W. Bush Administration

Katie Harbath

Associate Director, e-Communications, George W. Bush

Bo Harmon

Voter Contact Director, McCain for President 2008

Maureen Harrington

Vice President, Policy and International Relations, Millennium Challenge Corporation, George W. Bush Administration

Alisa Harrison

Director of Communications at USDA, George W. Bush Administration

Elton Hayes

Legislative Correspondent, Sen. John McCain

Jacqueline Hawkins

Staff Assistant, Presidential Personnel, The White House, George W. Bush Administration

Howard Thomas Hay

Senior Liaison Officer for Law Enforcement, U.S. Department of Justice, George H.W. Bush Administration

Andrew Hazlett

Chief of Staff, National Endowment for the Humanities, George W. Bush Administration

Chelsea Henderson

Volunteer, McCain for President 2008

Suzanne Hernandez

Constituent Advocate/Office of Sen. John McCain-Tucson

Kevin Herglotz

Press Assistant, Bush-Quayle 1992; Deputy Chief of Staff & Director of Communications, USDA, George W. Bush Administration

Paul Hickman

State Director, Sen. John McCain

David Hill

Associate Director, Bush-Cheney 2004; Deputy Associate Director, The White House

Rachel Hoff

Speechwriter & Policy Advisor, SASC Chairman John McCain

Faye Hoffman Hilpert

Congressional Liaison, Dept. of Education; Staff Assistant, HUD, George W. Bush Administration

Gregory Houston

Campaign Aide, McCain for President 2000

Charlie Howell

Trip Coordinator for the EPA and the First Lady's Office, Bush White House

Joe Hunter

Deputy Assistant Secretary - Water & Science, Department of the Interior, George H.W. Bush Administration

Loren Hyatt

Office of Public Liaison, The White House, President George W. Bush

Wes Irvin

U.S. DOT - MARAD/FTA, George W. Bush Administration

Gordon James

Advance, George H.W. Bush Administration; Advance, George W. Bush Administration; Advance, McCain for President

Heather Janik

Deputy Press Secretary, EOP, George W. Bush Administration

Greg Jenkins

Deputy Assistant to the President/Director of Advance, George W. Bush Administration

Addison Jenkins

Denver County Field Director, Romney for President 2012

Tony Jimenez

National Operations Team, Bush-Cheney 2004

Joe Johnson

Country Director - Russia IRI

Christopher Jones

Confidential Assistant, Tax Division, Department of Justice, George W. Bush Administration

Nicol Andrews Jones

Deputy Comms Director, FEMA & USDA, George W. Bush Administration

Warren Junium III

Producer/Director, George W. Bush Administration

Erin Karriker

Staff Assistant, Presidential Correspondence, George W. Bush Administration

Kelley Keeler Short

Deputy Director of Advance, OVP; Director of Media Relations, HUD, George W. Bush Administration

Molly Kelly

Legislative Correspondent, Sen. John McCain

Brandon Kenig

Co-Director, Kansans for Romney 2012

Kelly Kenneally

Deputy Director, Presidential Commission on White House Fellowships, George W. Bush Administration

Matt Kilfoyle

Regional Finance Director, Romney for President 2012

Karen Kirksey

Deputy Associate Administrator, Office of Legislative Affairs, General Services Administration, George W. Bush Administration

Christopher Koch

Chief of Staff, Senator John McCain

Michael Vincent Kostiw

Republican Staff Director, Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator John McCain

Priti Kothari

Coalitions Coordinator, Romney for President 2008/2012

Catherine Krug (Simonds)

Deputy Director Personal Correspondence, George W. Bush Administration

Rob Kubasko

Creative Director, McCain for President 2008

Carole Kuhn Waller

2008 Presidential Campaign, Scheduler — VP Nominee

Brittany Ladd

Press Advance Lead, McCain for President 2008; Director of Advance for Ann Romney, Romney for President 2012

Wade Lairsen

Associate Director, Office of Intergovernmental Affairs, President George W. Bush

Jill Landon

Executive Assistant to the Chief of Staff for the Vice President, VP Cheney 2006

Travis Larson

Press Assistant, McCain for President 2000

Leslie Lautenslager

Protocol Officer (Reagan/Bush 41); Assistant Chief of Protocol & Special Assistant to the Secretary of State (Bush 43)

Dallas Lawrence

Director of Community Relations and Public Liaison, Dept. of Defense, George W. Bush Administration

Sheila Lazzari

Staff Assistant, Sen. John McCain

Daniel M. Lee

Staff Assistant, Domestic Policy Council, The White House, President George W. Bush

Emily Leitch

National Security Council Staff, George W. Bush Administration

Eric Livingston

Bush-Cheney 2004, RNC

Amy Lorenzini Wren

Congressional Liaison, U.S. Trade and Development Agency, George W. Bush Administration

Jennifer Lux

Communications Director, McCain for President 2008

James Lynch

War Room Manager, McCain for President 2008

Michele Lynch

Senior Trip Coordinator, Office of Advance, The White House, President George W. Bush

Thomas J. Madison, Jr.

U.S. Federal Highway Administrator, George W. Bush Administration

Margaret Mankin Barton

Executive Director, National Women’s Business Council, George W. Bush Administration

Windsor Mann

Youth Coordinator, Students for Bush, Bush for President 2004

Megan Markel

Director of Intergovernmental Affairs, FMCSA, U.S. Department of Transportation, George W. Bush Administration

Danny Mazza

Former Intern, Sen. John McCain

Walter B. McCormick, Jr.

General Counsel, U.S. Department of Transportation, George H.W. Bush Administration

Catherine McEaddy

Presidential Writer, The White House, George W. Bush

Sally M. McKeag

Special Assistant to ETA Assistant Secretary of Labor, George W. Bush Administration

Jana McKeag

Chair, American Indians for McCain 2008

Patrick Mendoza

Program Advisor to the Administrator of the EPA, George W. Bush Administration

Meredith Merritt

Deputy Associate Director, Homeland Security Council, George W. Bush Administration

David Meyers

Assistant Staff Secretary and Communications Project Director, The White House, President George W. Bush

Jen Millikin

Press Advance, Bush-Cheney 2004; Deputy Director of Communications, President George W. Bush

Daniel Mintz

Chief Information Officer, US Department of Transportation, 2006-2009. George W. Bush Administration

Talal Mir

Legislative Assistant, Sen. John McCain

Heidi Mohlman Tringe

Legislative Affairs Director, White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (2004-2005)

Robert Morello

Director of Communications-Finance, Romney for President 2012

Virginia A. Mulberger

Special Assistant to the President, National Security Council, President George H. W. Bush

Martin J. Murphy

Founding Chief Executive Officer, CEO Roundtable on Cancer, Founder: President George H.W. Bush

Mary Jane Murphy

Director of Public Affairs and Media, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush

Mike Murphy

Senior Strategist, McCain for President 2000; Chief Consultant, Romney for Governor

Michael Napolitano

Office of Political Affairs, Bush Campaigns 00' & 04'

Bettina Nava

Arizona State Director, McCain for President 2000 and 2008

Brooks Nelson

Intern, USA Freedom Corps

Ryan Newcomb

Confidential Assistant DHS Political Appointment, George W. Bush Administration

Vinh Nguyen

Advance Representative, Bush for President, McCain for President, and Romney for President

Natalie Nicolas

Research Analyst, Senate Armed Services Committee

David Nierenberg

National Finance Chair, Romney for President 2012

Megan O’Brien Fuentes

Scheduler, Romney for President 2012

Kerry O’Hare

Deputy Administrator, US Department of Transportation, George W. Bush Administration

Emmet O'Neal

Political Desk Coordinator, Romney for President 2012

Paul O’Neill

Advance Office, Ronald Reagan White House

Kaitlin O’Reilly

Regional Finance Director, Romney for President 2012

Manuel Ochoa

Deputy Assistant Secretary for Grant Programs, Dept. of Housing and Urban Development, George W. Bush Administration

Howard Opinsky

National Press Secretary, McCain for President 2000

Justin Oppmann

Director, Patriots Network, McCain for President 2000

Chris Orlando

Communications Director, President George W. Bush

Kate Osler

Press Advance, McCain for President 2008; Press Advance, Romney for President 2012

Kimberley Palmese

Advance Representative, President George W. Bush

Ajay Patil

Senior Advance Representative, President George W. Bush

David Patterson

White House Office of Political Affairs, President George W. Bush

Ashley Parker Snider

Trip Coordinator White House Advance, President Reagan; Office of Public Affairs Department of Housing and Urban Development, George H.W. Bush Administration

Kevin W. Parks

Executive Director, Federal Council on the Aging, George H.W. Bush Administration

Christina Pearson

HHS Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs, George W. Bush Administration

Ann Marie Pedersen Yager

Department of Education, President George W. Bush

Elizabeth Penniman

Research Assistant, Presidential Speech Writing, President Reagan; Policy Analyst, National Security Council, Reagan Administration; Deputy Director, Presidential Transition, President Reagan; Director of Communications, US Surgeon General, George H.W. Bush Administration; Speechwriter, McCain for President 2008

Wing Pepper

Press Advance, Ronald Reagan White House

Mary E. Peters

Secretary of Transportation, George W. Bush Administration

Michael Petrucelli

Deputy Director and Acting Director, US Citizenship & Immigration Services, US Department of Homeland Security, George W. Bush Administration

Matthew Phillips

Congressional Advisor (Sch. C), Dept of State, George W. Bush Administration

Rees Porcari

Door Contact Director (Des Moines, IA Field Office), Romney for President 2012

Tyler S. Posey

General Counsel, Peace Corps, George W. Bush Administration

Virginia Pounds

Administrative Manager, Office of Senator John McCain

Katherine M. Prendergast

Finance and Logistics Officer, George W. Bush White House; Public Liaison Officer, DHS

Melissa Price

Assistant Staff Secretary, Staff Secretary’s Office, President George W. Bush

Kristopher Purcell

Bush White House & Campaigns

Patricia Radford

Confidential Assistant for the Under Secretary for Economic Affairs, Department of Commerce, George W. Bush Administration

Rebecca Ratliff

Texas Planning Council for Developmental Disabilities Appointee, George W. Bush Administration

Alan Charles Raul

Associate White House Counsel; General Counsel OMB and USDA; Vice Chairman PCLOB; Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush Administrations

Meghan K. Reilly

Intern, Office of Sen. John McCain

Dawn Riley

Victory 2000 KY Director and USDA 2001-2005, George W. Bush Administration

Heather Roebke Gutierrez

Executive Assistant, White House Counsel's Office, President George W. Bush

Nancy Risque Rohrbach

Assistant to the President and Cabinet Secretary; Deputy/Special Assistant to the President, Legislative Affairs, Reagan Administration

Thomas Roberts

Bush-Cheney ‘04; Special Assistant, USDA, George W. Bush Administration

Julie Roberts

2001-2004 FEMA, Deputy Scheduler Secretary Chao Labor, Special Asst to US for Int’l Trade Commerce, Special Assistant to Ambassador US Embassy the Netherlands

Josephine Bias Robinson

EOP, HHS, George W. Bush Administration

Webber Barton Roscher

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Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Legislation in the Office of the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, George H.W. Bush Administration

Jill Rulli (Neunaber)

Iowa State Director, Romney for President 2012

Colin K Russ

Digital Events, Romney for President 2012

Jerry Sager

Bush for President 2004

Mark Salter

Chief of Staff, Office of Senator John McCain

Diane Salter

Scheduler, Office of Senator John McCain

Shay Saucedo

Southern Arizona Regional Coordinator, Sen. John McCain

Bradley Saull

DHS Deputy White House Liaison, George W. Bush Administration

Gabriel Schoenfeld

Senior Advisor, Romney for President 2012

Yale Scott

The White House Deputy Associate Director of the Visitors Office, The U.S. Department of State Deputy Public Affairs Officer in the Office of the Chief of Protocol, U.S. Department of Education Advance

Representative for the Secretary of Education

Retha Senke Whewell

Assistant to the Deputy Director of OMB; Executive Assistant to the NASA Administrator, George W. Bush Administration

Charles Sethness

Assistant Treasury Secretary for Domestic Finance, Ronald Reagan Administration

Kathleen Shanahan

Staff Assistant, National Security Council, Reagan Administration; Special Assistant to Vice President Bush, Reagan Administration; Chief of Staff to Vice President Cheney, George W. Bush Administration

Will Shaw

Special Assistant to the Sec. of Energy for Congressional and Intergovernmental Affairs, George W. Bush Administration

George Sheehan

Staff Assistant, Office of Sen. John McCain

Jill Sigal

Assistant Secretary of Energy for Congressional & Intergovernmental Affairs, U.S. Department of Energy, George W. Bush Administration

Brooke Sikora Purcell

Legislative Assistant, Office of Sen. John McCain and Deputy State Director, McCain for President 2008

Sarah Simmons Swanson

Deputy Director of Strategic Initiatives, George W. Bush Administration; Director of Strategy, McCain for President 2008

Marvin Singleton

Chairman, Missouri Physicians for Reagan, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush; Missouri State Senator (1989-2002)

Pete Souza

Official White House Photographer, Ronald Reagan White House

Nancy Sinnott Dwight

Campaign Director, NRCC (1979-1981); Executive Director, NRCC (1981-1983); RNC Delegate for George W. Bush and Mitt Romney

Doug Smith

Legislative Correspondent, Office of Senator John McCain

Stephanie Smith Lee

Director, Office of Special Education Programs, U. S. Department of Education, George W. Bush Administration

Jennifer Smits-Kilgus

SBA Regional Director and Legislative Management Officer both at U.S. Dept of State and HUD, George W. Bush Administration

Mark SooHoo

Deputy eCampaign Director, McCain for President 2008

Sonya Sotak Elling

Legislative Assistant, Office of Sen. John McCain, Health Policy Advisor McCain for President 2008

Micah Spangler

Field Director, Romney for President 2012

Susan Spencer Mulvaney

Deputy Chief of Staff, US Environmental Protection Agency, George W. Bush Administration

Lindsay Stanton

Deputy California Finance Director, McCain for President 2008

R. James Steiner

New Hampshire Campaign, McCain for President

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Associate Director Communications White House Council on Environmental Quality, George W. Bush Administration

Andrew Stern

Digital Team Leader, Romney for President 2012

Daniel H. Stewart

Nevada Legal Counsel, Romney for President 2012

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US Department of Commerce, George W. Bush Administration

Jim Stoeckel

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Beth Supple

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Timothy C. Suprise

George H. W. Bush & George W. Bush Campaign - Michigan

Jim Swift

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W. Grey Terry

Special Assistant to the President and Deputy Director, Advance Office, Ronald Reagan White House

Sam Thernstrom

Associate Director for Communications, White House Counsel on Environmental Quality, President George W. Bush

Robert Thompson

Senior Staff Economist at the Council of Economic Advisers; Assistant Secretary for Economics at USDA

Wayne Thorburn

Regional Representative, Department of Education, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush Administrations

Ansley Tillman Allison

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Michael Turk

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Am I changing your mind at all? Just a little?

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 27, 2024, 06:15:48 PM

But are we on the same page that if the letter is accurate, and this is truly the opinion of these life long republicans that worked in Trumps first administration, then Trump != Free World.

Didn't you post the link because you got it from Fox? Lol

We are on the same page that if what the letter says is true, then Trump is not fit to be president for a second term. But that's a big if. However, I don't agree that if the letter is true the USA is going to be more or less free because he is not going to have absolute power

But you know what I'm basing it on to say that it's legitimate for him to run? On the same basis that I say he lost the election in 2020: that the US legal establishment says so. The electoral college proclaimed Biden the winner and the legal bodies have let him run.

I already told you that Trump is not my cup of tea but I would also like to know the degree of veracity that we can give to this from an objective point of view, which is going to be impossible, because for example other Republicans who are against Trump are the Cheney, and being that Dick Cheney is a fucking liar swindler and genocidal liar who has no qualms in inventing lies to kill millions of people as long as it brings him profits, well what they can say about Trump I do not see it very credible.

Plus Trump is not your typical Republican. I made mention in the other thread of the MAHA movement, which I'm sure has people in the food industry and pharmaceutical industry very angry, plus a lot of people in regulatory bodies. Being that there will be a lot of Republicans among them, I can't trust that what they say is objective.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 27, 2024, 10:55:18 AM

No, rather what you are reflecting is a kind of intellectual superiority, which is what the left is selling today. They divide the world into good guys and bad guys, and if you are a leftist it is because you are one of the good guys, while the others are racist, sexist, conspiranoid and in this particular case that you comment, that there are 80 million people who are assholes and do not realize how well the country is doing with the economy and how positive mass immigration is.

The main arguments against voting for Trump are shared by people from all over the political spectrum. Doesn't matter if agree with the policies of AOC or Dick Cheney, without Democracy political views stop mattering.

Read this entire letter please.

Quote

October 24, 2024

Yesterday, General John Kelly- a retired four-star general and Donald Trump's former White House Chief of Staff - told the American people what those of us who served in the Trump Administration have seen up close: Donald Trump is increasingly unstable, unfit to serve, and his second term would be more dangerous.

The revelations General Kelly brought forward are disturbing and shocking. But because we know Trump and have worked for and alongside him, we were sadly not surprised by what General Kelly had to say.
This is who Donald Trump is.

Donald Trump's disdain for the American military and admiration for dictators like Hitler is rooted in his desire for absolute, unchecked power. This is a man who threw his own Vice President - Mike Pence - at a violent mob in a desperate bid to hold on to power. When Donald Trump says he wants to be a "dictator" on "day one" and deploy the military against American citizens he deems "the enemy from within" - he means it.

General Kelly noted he is speaking out because of Trump's recent comments about using the military against our fellow Americans Trump deems the "enemy from within." General Kelly highlighted Trump's dreams of being an authoritarian, saying Trump "certainly prefers the dictator approach to government" and that Trump fits "into the general definition of fascist." General Kelly also made sure to emphasize Trump's infatuation with Adolf Hitler, saying that Trump "commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too."'

We applaud General Kelly for highlighting in stark details the danger of a second Trump term. Like General Kelly, we did not take the decision to come forward lightly. We are all lifelong Republicans who served our country. However, there are moments in history where it becomes necessary to put country over party. This is one of those moments.

Everyone should heed General Kelly's warning. We have witnessed, up close and personal, how Donald Trump operates and what he is capable of. The American people deserve a leader who won't threaten to tum armed troops against them, won't put his quest for power above their needs, and doesn't idealize the likes of Adolf Hitler. Donald Trump demonstrates every day he is not capable of being commander in chief of this great nation.

In a second term, those who once tried to prevent Donald Trump from his worst impulses will no longer be there to rein him in. For the good of our country, our democracy, and our Constitution, we are asking you to listen closely and carefully to General Kelly's warning. We unfortunately know all too well how serious and dire it is.

Brooke Vosburgh Alexander
Former Executive Assistant to Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross

Kevin Carroll
Former Senior Counselor to Secretary of Homeland Security John Kelly

Alyssa Farah Griffin
Former Press Secretary for the Vice President and Special Assistant to the President

Stephanie Grisham
Former White House Press Secretary

Mark Harvey
Former Special Assistant to the President

Peter Jennison
Former Director for Preparedness, National Security Council

Sofia Kinzinger
Former Deputy Assistant Secretary, Dept. of Homeland Security

Sarah Matthews
Former Deputy White House Press Secretary

Elizabeth Neumann
Former Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security

Robert Riley
Former Ambassador to Micronesia

Anthony Scaramucci
Former White House Director of Communications

Miles Taylor
Former Chief of Staff, Dept. of Homeland Security

Olivia Troye
Former National Security Advisor to the Vice President

If you actually read the letter, do you think that both of the following can be true:

- This letter is accurate
- A Trump second term would mean America is more free than a Harris victory

You will probably want to discredit the people that wrote the letter, which is fine. But are we on the same page that if the letter is accurate, and this is truly the opinion of these life long republicans that worked in Trumps first administration, then Trump != Free World.

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One of the most brutal ads you’ve ever seen against a politician. Wow. Just watch. - https://x.com/robbystarbuck/status/1850210241255772667?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1850210241255772667%7Ctwgr%5Ed2e1df562abaac2af160021086563b94903b4992%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freedomsphoenix.com%2FNews%2F370172-2024-10-27-one-of-the-most-brutal-ads-youve-ever-seen-against.htm.

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 25, 2024, 11:10:53 PM

I really don't think who the democratic candidate is or what their policies are matters very much at all in this election. You'd be convinced they were a communist also, and not even Karl Marx would be able to convince you that you were wrong.

Man, TwitchySeal, don't make me laugh because after all, not even Karl Marx could convince you that you made a blunder by not distinguishing between private property and private means of production.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 25, 2024, 11:10:53 PM

The reason Trump has as much support as he does is enough people believe enough of the lies required to justify voting for him. Like the election being stolen, or that Trump didn't try to steal it, or that all of the felonies he's been charged with are examples of him being a victim. Or that democrats want to destroy the country, that immigrants and gays and trans are their enemies that want to take from them, that Biden is corrupt, or Kamala is a communist, or that the the economy is in the gutter, and the country is going to hell.

No, rather what you are reflecting is a kind of intellectual superiority, which is what the left is selling today. They divide the world into good guys and bad guys, and if you are a leftist it is because you are one of the good guys, while the others are racist, sexist, conspiranoid and in this particular case that you comment, that there are 80 million people who are assholes and do not realize how well the country is doing with the economy and how positive mass immigration is.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 25, 2024, 11:10:53 PM

And it appears to have had zero effect on the race, you still believe "Trump = Free World". Kamala doesn't matter.

Well, in this case it's not so much Trump as the policies he proposes. You can check my posts on the forum. I never liked Trump myself, which I find the economic policies he proposes much better than those of the Democrats. If Trump dies the day after he takes office Vance's policies are going to be pretty much the same and that is the free world, rather than the world of increased state control, censorship and widespread impoverishment.

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i love the Communism
Kamala go Kamala go

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 25, 2024, 11:10:53 PM

Quote from: Poker Player on October 25, 2024, 12:33:11 PM

Well, here I am going to agree with you. Now that you have posted those links I remembered seeing those statements about “enemies from within” somewhere. And yes, that proves to me that Trump is a moron that the best thing is that he was not a candidate for the US presidency but as I was saying to TwitchySeal in another thread, imagine how bad the Democrats must have done these 4 years and especially how bad in the campaign (ridiculous Kamala again yesterday in a soft interview on CNN) for such a crook to have real chances to win. Just had they not made an ass of themselves, Trump would have no real chance of winning.

TwitchySeal I think he has put me on ignore, since he does not reply to me in other threads and therefore I will not answer him, I think it is better this way.

[...]
I really don't think who the democratic candidate is or what their policies are matters very much at all in this election. You'd be convinced they were a communist also, and not even Karl Marx would be able to convince you that you were wrong. The reason Trump has as much support as he does is enough people believe enough of the lies required to justify voting for him.
, you still believe "Trump = Free World". Kamala doesn't matter.

Policies do matter for people who can get over the name calling and the noise generated during the elections. There is however a core issue, what is described as "freedom vs communism" has never been such. The "freedom" argument has been used a re-used over and over during the last few years in UK, US, Spain, Italy,...

The fact is that there is no more "freedom" under any of the choices.

On policies, protectionisms and tariffs do work in the short term. In the long term make a country uncompetitive. I am thinking Trump would have an effect similar to what happened to the car manufacturing in US vs Japan, but this time the adversary is much less friendly.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 25, 2024, 12:33:11 PM

Well, here I am going to agree with you. Now that you have posted those links I remembered seeing those statements about “enemies from within” somewhere. And yes, that proves to me that Trump is a moron that the best thing is that he was not a candidate for the US presidency but as I was saying to TwitchySeal in another thread, imagine how bad the Democrats must have done these 4 years and especially how bad in the campaign (ridiculous Kamala again yesterday in a soft interview on CNN) for such a crook to have real chances to win. Just had they not made an ass of themselves, Trump would have no real chance of winning.

TwitchySeal I think he has put me on ignore, since he does not reply to me in other threads and therefore I will not answer him, I think it is better this way.

I really don't think who the democratic candidate is or what their policies are matters very much at all in this election. You'd be convinced they were a communist also, and not even Karl Marx would be able to convince you that you were wrong. The reason Trump has as much support as he does is enough people believe enough of the lies required to justify voting for him. Like the election being stolen, or that Trump didn't try to steal it, or that all of the felonies he's been charged with are examples of him being a victim. Or that democrats want to destroy the country, that immigrants and gays and trans are their enemies that want to take from them, that Biden is corrupt, or Kamala is a communist, or that the the economy is in the gutter, and the country is going to hell.

And, probably biggest of all, that any journalist that reports something negative about him is lying. While he was in office, conditioning people to believe that the media was "the enemy of the people" probably paid more dividends to him than any other lie.

A 3 star general that served as Trumps Sec of Homeland Security before being promoted to Chief of Staff said if Trump won, this time he would expect Trump to govern like a dictator, that he met every definition of 'fascist', that he had no respect and little understanding of the constitution, and that he often sympathized with Hitler. This wasn't the first general to paint Trump like this, and far from the only evidence that Trump wants to be a dictator, plus 13 former Trump White House staffers signed a letter in support of this generals interview, along with hundreds of other former Republican administration Cabinet members and staffers endorsing Kamala simply because Trump is a threat to democracy. And it appears to have had zero effect on the race, you still believe "Trump = Free World". Kamala doesn't matter.

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 22, 2024, 02:31:42 PM

Then you must have linked to the wrong video. The video you linked to has Kamala talking about some people needing more help than others (which is literally how most forms of government welfare are designed - typically they don't hand out food stamps, unemployment benefits, etc to everyone but to those who meet certain "need" criteria). She mentions some $1400 payment for something, not sure what, and also $3000 child tax credit, hardly a communist policy. Talks about support for small businesses.

No, I haven't linked the wrong video. Did you like the video? Watch this one:

Modern Educayshun

20M views. About woke education. It's obviously a parody but when the girl said: “but feelings are more important than facts” I had such a fit of laughter that I couldn't breathe.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 22, 2024, 02:31:42 PM

Since I don't have a "wish" either way here, I don't see how it's my wishful thinking. That's like saying it's my wishful thinking that bigfoot doesn't exist.

Didn't you say you were withdrawing from the discussion? You seem to be hooked on arguing with me or something. And besides, we're not going to convince anyone. I remember in the previous election thread vs eddie13 reading something but when you were rebutting each other with long posts I didn't even read it.

Yes, you have no desires, just as you are not a leftist but curiously your objective thinking always ends up on the same side.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 22, 2024, 02:31:42 PM

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/19/nx-s1-5156027/alien-enemies-act-1798-trump-immigration
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/presidential/3196154/trump-affirms-that-schiff-and-pelosi-are-enemy-from-within/
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4906904-trump-endorses-police-rough-hour/
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/13/trump-military-election-day-00183565 (I'm surprised this one doesn't ring a bell since you posted in another thread about it)

And this is just the top of the proverbial iceberg.

Well, here I am going to agree with you. Now that you have posted those links I remembered seeing those statements about “enemies from within” somewhere. And yes, that proves to me that Trump is a moron that the best thing is that he was not a candidate for the US presidency but as I was saying to TwitchySeal in another thread, imagine how bad the Democrats must have done these 4 years and especially how bad in the campaign (ridiculous Kamala again yesterday in a soft interview on CNN) for such a crook to have real chances to win. Just had they not made an ass of themselves, Trump would have no real chance of winning.

TwitchySeal I think he has put me on ignore, since he does not reply to me in other threads and therefore I will not answer him, I think it is better this way.

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With Kamala blindly promising everything Trump comes out with as part of his economic plan it will be funny to see what happens next. Trump just floated the idea of eliminating Federal income taxes. Kamala’s handlers would obviously never allow that idea to be considered so now the Harris campaign is in the hilarious position of having to trash Trump for wanting to eliminate Federal income taxes while simultaneously pushing censorship on the American people.

Censorship and taxes is on the ballot. If you don’t understand why you shouldn’t vote for Harris then you are brainwashed and need help. I’m being serious.

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Freedom, Natural Law

Communism or Free World, works the same to get things
https://youtu.be/pN3BaAa9lLg

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 23, 2024, 01:33:22 AM

Quote from: OgNasty on October 23, 2024, 12:45:55 AM

rally trying to get a pro-censorship candidate elected.

“We’re losing a lot of people because of the Internet, and we have to do something. We have to go see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what’s happening. And we have to talk to them. Maybe in certain areas closing that Internet up in some way [audience member cheers]… Somebody will say, ‘oh, freedom of speech, freedom of speech.’ These are foolish people. We have a lot of foolish people. We have a LOT of foolish people.”

-Trump

"60 MINUTES SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY TAKEN OFF THE AIR - ELECTION INTERFERENCE. CBS SHOULD LOSE ITS LICENSE. THIS IS THE BIGGEST SCANDAL IN BROADCAST HISTORY. Kamala should be investigated and forced off the Campaign, and Joe Biden allowed to take back his rightful place (He got 14 Million Primary Votes, she got none!). THIS WHOLE SORDID AND FRAUDULENT EVENT IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY!"

-Trump

The major point is simple. Choose:
1. Death and destruction to many people of the world with the Cabala Dem Deep State;
2. Peace and prosperity with Trump.

How do we know? Look at history of what both regimes have done. Simple as that.

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Quote from: OgNasty on October 23, 2024, 12:45:55 AM

I can’t believe how hard Eminem is going against Trump. I never thought I’d see him at a rally trying to get a pro-censorship candidate elected. Really makes you wonder what they have him on tape doing. It is crazy how all the people alleged to be on the Epstein client list seem to be trying so hard to get Kamala elected.

Maybe because the candidate is not pro-censorship?

But if Eminem and Taylor Swift are agreeing in something, namely Trump not being the right person, it should make you reflect on things that maybe, just maybe, are not really right with the candidate.

I think he is simply not qualified for the role. Seeing him serving fries and burgers with passion, commitment and having fun with it made it very clear to me that he is qualified exactly for that. It would probably make him a happier person.

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Quote from: OgNasty on October 23, 2024, 12:45:55 AM

rally trying to get a pro-censorship candidate elected.

“We’re losing a lot of people because of the Internet, and we have to do something. We have to go see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what’s happening. And we have to talk to them. Maybe in certain areas closing that Internet up in some way [audience member cheers]… Somebody will say, ‘oh, freedom of speech, freedom of speech.’ These are foolish people. We have a lot of foolish people. We have a LOT of foolish people.”

-Trump

"60 MINUTES SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY TAKEN OFF THE AIR - ELECTION INTERFERENCE. CBS SHOULD LOSE ITS LICENSE. THIS IS THE BIGGEST SCANDAL IN BROADCAST HISTORY. Kamala should be investigated and forced off the Campaign, and Joe Biden allowed to take back his rightful place (He got 14 Million Primary Votes, she got none!). THIS WHOLE SORDID AND FRAUDULENT EVENT IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY!"

-Trump

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I can’t believe how hard Eminem is going against Trump. I never thought I’d see him at a rally trying to get a pro-censorship candidate elected. Really makes you wonder what they have him on tape doing. It is crazy how all the people alleged to be on the Epstein client list seem to be trying so hard to get Kamala elected.

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 22, 2024, 09:24:16 PM

Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

The jailing opponents thing I understand is for committing crimes following legal procedures (many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail) and if you want me to answer what I bolded provide some links because it doesn't ring a bell and I imagine you are distorting something he said.

Reasons Trump has called (or threatened) for people to be imprisoned:

- Criticizing him.
- Criticizing the supreme court.
- Investigating him.
- Prosecuting him.
- Certifying the 2020 election.

Let me know if any of this is news to you and you can't find evidence and I'll provide source.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

(many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail)

Do you genuinely believe that there is a valid "both sides" argument here?

Who are you, really, TwitchySeal.

Take the whole bunch of things that you can imagine that are wrong with Trump, and compare them with the Dem Deep State that is in power.

Dem Deep State:
- Millions of troops and other people around the world in various countries killed;
- Loads of American money shipped to other countries for this killing;
- The money shipped represents the property of the average American people who have been screwed;
- Plus all the lies of Cabala and the Dems.

When you look at this stuff, you almost can't see Trump badness. But that's without taking into account Trump goodness which is shown here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.55119252.

So, what really are you TS? Looks like you are a harbinger of evil promotions.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

The jailing opponents thing I understand is for committing crimes following legal procedures (many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail) and if you want me to answer what I bolded provide some links because it doesn't ring a bell and I imagine you are distorting something he said.

Reasons Trump has called (or threatened) for people to be imprisoned:

- Criticizing him.
- Criticizing the supreme court.
- Investigating him.
- Prosecuting him.
- Certifying the 2020 election.

Let me know if any of this is news to you and you can't find evidence and I'll provide source.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

(many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail)

Do you genuinely believe that there is a valid "both sides" argument here?

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Remember the fine print. Remember that people don't always apply the legal definitions. What really si being done, and what really is Communism?

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

How is it a fallacy to point out severe inconsistencies in your argument?

Inconsistencies, you say?

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

As far as I can understand the quote you've based this thread on, she wants to make government welfare to go to those who need it most...

Kamala does not say that. That's what I call inconsistency, changing every time the argument for what suits you and then refuting it, that's rather strawman inconsistency. I think I've experienced the welfare state in my flesh much more than you have and there's no way in hell it's about everyone having the same results. European social democracies functioned very well for many years with a respect for freedom of enterprise and a certain state redistribution, which has nothing to do with everyone having equal results.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

which I think is how it's supposed to work anyway, whether you like it or not.

and that has nothing to do with Kamala's communism whether you like it or not.

Then you must have linked to the wrong video. The video you linked to has Kamala talking about some people needing more help than others (which is literally how most forms of government welfare are designed - typically they don't hand out food stamps, unemployment benefits, etc to everyone but to those who meet certain "need" criteria). She mentions some $1400 payment for something, not sure what, and also $3000 child tax credit, hardly a communist policy. Talks about support for small businesses.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

I didn't hear her say that businesses need to be nationalized, opponents need to be banished to Alaska (which I already tried to allude to in my response to BADecker but he seems to like it actually LOL), or any other signs of "communism", including the stuff that you ascribed to communism. So it sounds like a lot of conjecture on one phrase.

Yeah right, suchmoon now Kamala is going to come and openly say that she is a communist. Sounds like quite a bit of wishful thinking conjecture to me.

Since I don't have a "wish" either way here, I don't see how it's my wishful thinking. That's like saying it's my wishful thinking that bigfoot doesn't exist.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

Whereas the other candidate is point blank saying that he would deport millions of people, jail opponents, let police do whatever they want, use the military in illegal ways - I can't help but think that you call that "free world" and want to make up a scare about "communism" because of your own political bias.

Deporting millions of people that Kamala has been quick to let in is fucking cool. The jailing opponents thing I understand is for committing crimes following legal procedures (many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail) and if you want me to answer what I bolded provide some links because it doesn't ring a bell and I imagine you are distorting something he said.

Deporting millions of people by invoking the 1798 alien act is not cool at all. Nor is jailing of opponents for the reasons Trump said he would do it.

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/19/nx-s1-5156027/alien-enemies-act-1798-trump-immigration
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/presidential/3196154/trump-affirms-that-schiff-and-pelosi-are-enemy-from-within/
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4906904-trump-endorses-police-rough-hour/
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/13/trump-military-election-day-00183565 (I'm surprised this one doesn't ring a bell since you posted in another thread about it)

And this is just the top of the proverbial iceberg.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2024, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

Whereas the other candidate is point blank saying that he would deport millions of people, jail opponents, let police do whatever they want, use the military in illegal ways - I can't help but think that you call that "free world" and want to make up a scare about "communism" because of your own political bias.

Deporting millions of people that Kamala has been quick to let in is fucking cool. The jailing opponents thing I understand is for committing crimes following legal procedures (many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail) and if you want me to answer what I bolded provide some links because it doesn't ring a bell and I imagine you are distorting something he said.

If I recall correctly, since Joe Biden started his first term there was indeed a sentiment in immigrants about having an easier path to cross the border illegal and apply for any benefit it was granted to them while waiting for asylum or permanent residency. I have myself seen documentary films on people seeking to cross to the USA and they wanted to do it as soon as Biden got into office. On the other hand, it would be a lie to say there were no illegal crossings during the First Trump administration, but they were probably lower but they were handled in a similar fashion, as immigration laws continue to be about the same, regardless of the color of the party in power.
Trump does not have a magical formula to deal with immigration, he never had it and the border wall he talked so much about in 2016 was rather a strategy to fuel and direct the frustration of an important percentage of the population of the country.
Even if he wants to make something dramatic to change things, like mass deportations the laws put in place and the fragmentation of power within Washington will prevent him from doing anything effective. It is similar to that occasion he wanted to ban people coming in planes from muslin majority countries. It was reversed by a judge.

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

How is it a fallacy to point out severe inconsistencies in your argument?

Inconsistencies, you say?

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

As far as I can understand the quote you've based this thread on, she wants to make government welfare to go to those who need it most...

Kamala does not say that. That's what I call inconsistency, changing every time the argument for what suits you and then refuting it, that's rather strawman inconsistency. I think I've experienced the welfare state in my flesh much more than you have and there's no way in hell it's about everyone having the same results. European social democracies functioned very well for many years with a respect for freedom of enterprise and a certain state redistribution, which has nothing to do with everyone having equal results.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

which I think is how it's supposed to work anyway, whether you like it or not.

and that has nothing to do with Kamala's communism whether you like it or not.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

I didn't hear her say that businesses need to be nationalized, opponents need to be banished to Alaska (which I already tried to allude to in my response to BADecker but he seems to like it actually LOL), or any other signs of "communism", including the stuff that you ascribed to communism. So it sounds like a lot of conjecture on one phrase.

Yeah right, suchmoon now Kamala is going to come and openly say that she is a communist. Sounds like quite a bit of wishful thinking conjecture to me.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 19, 2024, 02:42:39 PM

Whereas the other candidate is point blank saying that he would deport millions of people, jail opponents, let police do whatever they want, use the military in illegal ways - I can't help but think that you call that "free world" and want to make up a scare about "communism" because of your own political bias.

Deporting millions of people that Kamala has been quick to let in is fucking cool. The jailing opponents thing I understand is for committing crimes following legal procedures (many Democrats also want to put Trump in jail) and if you want me to answer what I bolded provide some links because it doesn't ring a bell and I imagine you are distorting something he said.

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Quote from: covfefe_ on October 21, 2024, 10:37:03 AM

Kamala Harris is a pawn of some really big businesses who controls the national policy to benefit themselves. They are no way communist. Trump speaks for the general working class, he's more communist than Harris.

Yes, Trump speaks for the class that he has been a part of his whole life as well as all the other members of his class who support him in hopes that it will mean a better life for them.

Quote

“You’re the greatest cutter,” Trump told Musk. “I look at what you do. You walk in and say, ‘You want to quit?’ I won’t mention the name of the company but they go on strike and you say, ’That’s OK. You’re all gone.'”

Musk said, “Yeah,” and laughed while Trump was talking.

It wasn’t clear what employees Trump was referring to.

In June, eight former workers at SpaceX, Musk’s rocket company, sued the company and Musk, alleging he ordered them fired after they challenged what they called rampant sexual harassment and a hostile “Animal House”-style work environment at the company.

In addition, the NLRB determined that a 2018 Twitter post by Musk unlawfully threatened Tesla employees with the loss of stock options if they decided to be represented by a union.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-and-musk-discussed-firing-striking-workers-the-uaw-is-now-seeking-an-nlrb-investigation

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Kamala Harris is a pawn of some really big businesses who controls the national policy to benefit themselves. They are no way communist. Trump speaks for the general working class, he's more communist than Harris.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 19, 2024, 12:39:19 PM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 17, 2024, 12:59:38 PM

Ok, so no worries then, there can't possibly ever be any communism, lock the thread.

As for hunger, repression, mass deaths, etc, I've been told that presidents can't do illegal stuff so this is not an issue either.

I find it hard to find an argument among such fallacies.

How about focusing on the point that Kamala wants to achieve with her policy measures that everyone has the same results (which is what this thread is about and is very clear in the OP)? What do you call that?

How is it a fallacy to point out severe inconsistencies in your argument?

As far as I can understand the quote you've based this thread on, she wants to make government welfare to go to those who need it most... which I think is how it's supposed to work anyway, whether you like it or not. I didn't hear her say that businesses need to be nationalized, opponents need to be banished to Alaska (which I already tried to allude to in my response to BADecker but he seems to like it actually LOL), or any other signs of "communism", including the stuff that you ascribed to communism. So it sounds like a lot of conjecture on one phrase.

Whereas the other candidate is point blank saying that he would deport millions of people, jail opponents, let police do whatever they want, use the military in illegal ways - I can't help but think that you call that "free world" and want to make up a scare about "communism" because of your own political bias.

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 17, 2024, 11:39:14 AM

Trump called Kamala a communist because he thought it sounded good.

Right wing media ran with it.

You fell for it and decided to create this thread with an out of context quote of Kamala saying "everyone should end up in the same place" as PROOF that Kamala = Communist and Trump = Free World.

I posted a direct quote from the guy who developed the core ideas of communism, the guy known as "The Father of Communism", the author of "The Communist Manifesto", that explicitly argued against the idea that you claimed to be communist.

You're not an idiot. You knew when you read the quote that you had been effectively proven wrong. But, as per MAGA bylaws, admitting you are wrong is not an option and discrediting the source is always encouraged. So you decided to make some vague argument mixed with irrelevant attempts to 'pwn the libs' that what Karl Marx said doesn't matter, and that you have a better source: "From what happened in the real world, smarty pants"

Pathetic really.

No, pathetic is not recognizing your mistake. We all make mistakes, it would have been honorable if you had said long ago something like “you are right, one thing is the means of production and another private property but...” and then go on with your arguments.

What do you tell me about what Trump says? So if Trump says that the earth is round, according to you it is better to believe that it is flat or something?

Kamala is a communist because she says that with political measures everyone has to reach the same results, no matter how much you want to defend the opposite, which is like defending that the earth is flat.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 17, 2024, 12:59:38 PM

Ok, so no worries then, there can't possibly ever be any communism, lock the thread.

As for hunger, repression, mass deaths, etc, I've been told that presidents can't do illegal stuff so this is not an issue either.

I find it hard to find an argument among such fallacies.

How about focusing on the point that Kamala wants to achieve with her policy measures that everyone has the same results (which is what this thread is about and is very clear in the OP)? What do you call that?

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Quote from: paxmao on October 17, 2024, 06:30:37 PM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 17, 2024, 11:39:14 AM

Quote from: Poker Player on October 17, 2024, 11:12:35 AM

Well, first of all let's see if anyone is able to explain to me why Kamala went to make a fool of herself on Fox yesterday. Then I have to hear some leftists to go on elitist, saying that those who vote right wing are dumb. She made an appalling fool of herself and seemed to be speaking to dumb potential voters. Hey paxmao, book an appointment with Kamala and show her your stats on immigration, who seems not to have heard.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 14, 2024, 10:49:05 AM

Let me see if I can parse out where this disconnect is happening. You seem to be taking the not uncommon but vague interpretation of "communim" meaning any society that has communism at its ideology, its goal, but hasn't achieved that goal.

Of course the goal has not been achieved because no matter how much you take the communist ideology as a Franciscan monk takes the bible, that shitty ideology has only led to hunger, repression and mass deaths in the real world.

Trump called Kamala a communist because he thought it sounded good.

[...]

This is the direct and simple explanation. Thank you for keeping it simple, it may even be useful for the Trump one-liners fish memory people out there.

The accusation of "Communism" has been used all over the political arena, usually followed by comparisons with Venezuela - the go to country to scare people into voting something they do not really believe is really good. Plenty of manipulation there.

If you want a fun (actually very dark) rabbit hole, look up the Malmedy Massacre during WW2. Then all the right wing conspiracy theories that surrounded the post war trial that the Nazis who did the massacre were actually the victims (blamed the jews obv). Joseph McCarthy starts his political career defending the Nazis, blaming the jews, and calling anyone who questioned him a communist. He likes being famous so he makes a carreer out of calling people communists. His chief council and personal lawyer was Roy Cohen up until McCarthy drank himself to death in 1957 (more conspiracy theories followed). 15 years later Trump hires Roy Cohen....

Roy Cohn: From ‘Red Scare’ Prosecutor to Donald Trump’s Mentor

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Communism has been here for a long time. Trump won't expand it, but he probably won't stop it much.

The form that Communism takes is Americans murdering Americans... abortion. 60 million Americans dead through the abortion Communism war... or more.... in America.

Cabala will expand this faster than ever... more Communism.

One thing nobody can do is reduce the number of dead in this communistic war of Americans against Americans. More will always be aborted. Nobody can reduce the 60 million number, only expand it.

Cool

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 17, 2024, 11:39:14 AM

Quote from: Poker Player on October 17, 2024, 11:12:35 AM

Well, first of all let's see if anyone is able to explain to me why Kamala went to make a fool of herself on Fox yesterday. Then I have to hear some leftists to go on elitist, saying that those who vote right wing are dumb. She made an appalling fool of herself and seemed to be speaking to dumb potential voters. Hey paxmao, book an appointment with Kamala and show her your stats on immigration, who seems not to have heard.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 14, 2024, 10:49:05 AM

Let me see if I can parse out where this disconnect is happening. You seem to be taking the not uncommon but vague interpretation of "communim" meaning any society that has communism at its ideology, its goal, but hasn't achieved that goal.

Of course the goal has not been achieved because no matter how much you take the communist ideology as a Franciscan monk takes the bible, that shitty ideology has only led to hunger, repression and mass deaths in the real world.

Trump called Kamala a communist because he thought it sounded good.

[...]

This is the direct and simple explanation. Thank you for keeping it simple, it may even be useful for the Trump one-liners fish memory people out there.

The accusation of "Communism" has been used all over the political arena, usually followed by comparisons with Venezuela - the go to country to scare people into voting something they do not really believe is really good. Plenty of manipulation there. Anything that looks like social measures in US is immediately "communism" and as usual, if you want to know where it comes from just do the "who is to benefit" test (hint - it won't be the poor).

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 17, 2024, 11:12:35 AM

Of course the goal has not been achieved because no matter how much you take the communist ideology as a Franciscan monk takes the bible, that shitty ideology has only led to hunger, repression and mass deaths in the real world.

Ok, so no worries then, there can't possibly ever be any communism, lock the thread.

As for hunger, repression, mass deaths, etc, I've been told that presidents can't do illegal stuff so this is not an issue either.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 17, 2024, 11:12:35 AM

Well, first of all let's see if anyone is able to explain to me why Kamala went to make a fool of herself on Fox yesterday. Then I have to hear some leftists to go on elitist, saying that those who vote right wing are dumb. She made an appalling fool of herself and seemed to be speaking to dumb potential voters. Hey paxmao, book an appointment with Kamala and show her your stats on immigration, who seems not to have heard.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 14, 2024, 10:49:05 AM

Let me see if I can parse out where this disconnect is happening. You seem to be taking the not uncommon but vague interpretation of "communim" meaning any society that has communism at its ideology, its goal, but hasn't achieved that goal.

Of course the goal has not been achieved because no matter how much you take the communist ideology as a Franciscan monk takes the bible, that shitty ideology has only led to hunger, repression and mass deaths in the real world.

Trump called Kamala a communist because he thought it sounded good.

Right wing media ran with it.

You fell for it and decided to create this thread with an out of context quote of Kamala saying "everyone should end up in the same place" as PROOF that Kamala = Communist and Trump = Free World.

I posted a direct quote from the guy who developed the core ideas of communism, the guy known as "The Father of Communism", the author of "The Communist Manifesto", that explicitly argued against the idea that you claimed to be communist.

You're not an idiot. You knew when you read the quote that you had been effectively proven wrong. But, as per MAGA bylaws, admitting you are wrong is not an option and discrediting the source is always encouraged. So you decided to make some vague argument mixed with irrelevant attempts to 'pwn the libs' that what Karl Marx said doesn't matter, and that you have a better source: "From what happened in the real world, smarty pants"

Pathetic really.

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Well, first of all let's see if anyone is able to explain to me why Kamala went to make a fool of herself on Fox yesterday. Then I have to hear some leftists to go on elitist, saying that those who vote right wing are dumb. She made an appalling fool of herself and seemed to be speaking to dumb potential voters. Hey paxmao, book an appointment with Kamala and show her your stats on immigration, who seems not to have heard.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 14, 2024, 10:49:05 AM

Let me see if I can parse out where this disconnect is happening. You seem to be taking the not uncommon but vague interpretation of "communim" meaning any society that has communism at its ideology, its goal, but hasn't achieved that goal.

Of course the goal has not been achieved because no matter how much you take the communist ideology as a Franciscan monk takes the bible, that shitty ideology has only led to hunger, repression and mass deaths in the real world.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 14, 2024, 10:49:05 AM

I personally find this way too cringy to continue. Arguing about communism from a comfort of everything that a modern democratic market-based society can offer... on a bitcoin forum... it's just surreal. Tell you what, if Kamala tries to do communism, I'll just illegally migrate to Canada. Problem solved. Good luck in Alaska.

Yes, I also see it quite pointless, that's why I haven't been in this section for a long time and I only came back for the bet. Because for paxmao to come and refute me with statistics that it seems Kamala hasn't heard about, and for TwitchySeal to insist on making a fool of himself with something that is Kindergarten communism, what we are doing here is making an effort to write for nothing.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 14, 2024, 09:56:30 PM

I read the communist manifesto. But that was written by Karl Marx, someone you think is not relevant to our discussion on the definition of communism. (lol)

Please stop making a fool of yourself, you look like Kamala on Fox.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 14, 2024, 09:56:30 PM

And, to be more specific, communists don't think people should own private property, like land, factories, shops, etc. Personal property like clothes and stuff is different and ok.

You insist on making a fool of yourself, I told you before, I read as much or more communist theory as you did until I realized what garbage it was.
You are insisting on making a fool of yourself when what you put first “land, factories, shops” are means of production, let's see if you learn the difference between means of production and private property, maybe when you go to communism classes at Kindergarten level instead of giving lessons you will learn the difference.

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Kamala Harris's Vice Presidential running mate Tim Walz is a drunk driver. He got arrested for it. Drunk drivers should not be vice presidents because when they become presidents, they are going to get fucking wasted, and they will order all nuclear weapons to be launched at Russia and China, and then we will all fucking die, and most of you bastards will go to Hell where you will be sexually abused by the demons for all eternity. So no, Kamala won't give us communism. Kamala and Walz will bring death and HELL.

-Joseph Van Name Ph.D.

AMERICANS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!

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Quote from: Dimitarus on October 17, 2024, 03:43:41 AM

So Trump will make the United States a second Russia

No, he will not because he cannot realistically do so, the United States has laws and a system of check and balances which are supposed to be keep in place for preventing people like Trump appear and try to establish and autocratic rule and suppress political opponents.
Take as an example the occasion Trump wanted to ban people from coming to the USA by plane from Muslin majority countries. It did not last long as his executive order was cancelled by a judge who ruled it to be against the constitution of the country.
You can also see how Georgia Secretary of State stood firm in his position not to cheat for Trump and "find votes" for him.

In short, within the United States power is not concentrated inside a single entity as the president, there are other people who have their percentage of power and are in charge to prevent the president from becoming a tyrant, like Puting is.

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So Trump will make the United States a second Russia

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Quote from: BADecker on October 15, 2024, 12:05:48 PM

I just looked up what the scheduled Social Security inflationary increase is for retired people in the US for 2025. It's going to be 2.5%... way less then the actual inflationary increase. $Billions to fight wars around the world. $Billions essentially stolen from the American people.

Cool

The CPI is 2.4%. That means prices increased by 2.4% over the past year. Although we don't know what it will be on Dec 31, 2.4% is lower than 2.5%.

Anyone with a 401k or Roth retirement funds that put it all in index funds saw almost 35% growth on their investment over the past year.

And for those still contributing, usually with employer match, the average wage over the past year has increased 6.3%.

The economy is booming.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 08, 2024, 01:12:46 PM

In case it is not clear what is at stake in the upcoming US elections, it is necessary to remind ourselves of this:

VP Kamala Harris touts EQUITY: "Everybody should end up in the same place"

As much as she would deny being a communist if asked explicitly, she cannot hide it. She clearly says that everyone should not only start from the same place, which is impossible, but end up in the same place. And who would guarantee that? She does, a communist politician, who promises to achieve this through state planning.

Whenever this ideology has been tried to be implemented, it has always ended in the same way: genocides that make Hitler look like an amateur, political repression, massive population, exoduses, famines, etc. There is not a single time that such a political system has been tried and has not ended in atrocious dictatorships and genocide. And at the same time, the more people have killed that system and the more it has failed, the more popular it is with university professors and posh billionaires.

No Mrs. Harris, do not deceive people. In the civilised world we should be equal in rights and opportunities but neither equal in birth nor of course equal in results thanks to a politician, because in the same way that there are working people there are lazy people, also there are people who invest what they earn and there are people who spend it on whores and cocaine, so no, do not come here with a story of Alice in Wonderland to promise the impossible, as Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro and Maduro among others did.

We have an election discussion thread but I didn't want this to be buried on a secondary page because this is the main issue at stake in this election: free world vs. price controls, censorship, impoverishment of the population caused by the policies taken and blaming it on capitalism, repression of individual freedom and so on and so forth.

Dedicated to my lefty friends suchmoon, paxmao and the rest.

Communism has a way of ruining things. Always has a good start but then it doesn’t end well. There’s always something fishy about it

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there in no "free world", there is only communism with psyops, propaganda and entertainment LOL

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 15, 2024, 12:38:37 PM

Quote from: BADecker on October 15, 2024, 12:05:48 PM

I just looked up what the scheduled Social Security inflationary increase is for retired people in the US for 2025. It's going to be 2.5%...

So that's... great? Less social security -> less communism?

And why are you looking at government handouts. You're supposed to live off potatoes on your sovereign land.

Potatoes are good. They have nicotine in them. Neutralizes the King Cobra venom popularly known as the Covid virus.

Cool

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Quote from: BADecker on October 15, 2024, 12:05:48 PM

I just looked up what the scheduled Social Security inflationary increase is for retired people in the US for 2025. It's going to be 2.5%...

So that's... great? Less social security -> less communism?

And why are you looking at government handouts. You're supposed to live off potatoes on your sovereign land.

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Quote from: paxmao on October 15, 2024, 09:29:00 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 13, 2024, 07:25:39 PM

~

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism. My mistake. I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born? And who is behind it?

Joseph McCarthy? That would make a lot of sense considering the connection to Trump. But does calling all your enemies communist really redefine communism itself? Embracing ignorance like that makes me uncomfortable - especially on something that was started by Nazi sympathizers. So I hope it's not McCarthy.

Yep, most people in the US think of Communism as a swear word. They have not really reflected on what it means, what could have positive, what are the reasons why it appeared and made perfect sense at a point in time, and now - in my view - how is it utterly unrealisable in modern times, as it ignores some of the most basic human aspirations and motivations.

The mindset is simplistic: communism means the state takes from me to give others. They do not need to know anything else.

When a regime in office sends American money to Ukraine, harming the American people thereby, who cares what it's called?

I just looked up what the scheduled Social Security inflationary increase is for retired people in the US for 2025. It's going to be 2.5%... way less then the actual inflationary increase. $Billions to fight wars around the world. $Billions essentially stolen from the American people.

Cool

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 13, 2024, 07:25:39 PM

Quote from: Poker Player on October 13, 2024, 04:09:05 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

LOL... houses?

Our discussions remind me of the never-ending story.

The point here is that TwitchySeal has started giving me lessons on communist theory when I am not ignorant of it, far from it, by saying that

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

In a communist society, people don't own property.

when the fact is that people did own property.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

Typical soviet family had to wait years to be able get an allocation to "buy" a car.

I know, I know, it's not the first time I've put this joke on the forum:

Reagan Joke -- Soviet Union and Getting A New Automobile

The fact is that no matter how you put it, in communist countries there is private property, no matter how much you want to put things in quotation marks or how much there are differences with private property in the free world.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

And that wasn't even communism, that was just what they called socialism in progress of building communism.

This is what many communists claim (I'm not saying you do), as if to say that real communism has never been implemented and that when it is implemented it will be wonderful. For me it is the opposite, if what has been implemented that has not reached Marx's ideal but almost, if it is implemented what tens of millions of starving and freezing dead will seem like child's play.

On the other hand, I do not know how there are people who take Marx's ideas as a pious person takes the bible. Marx was a violent drunkard who was imprisoned for it and who led a bourgeois life, an example of “do as I say but not as I do”.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

Not sure how you could read the article you linked to and think "yeah that proves soviets had private property" even though it's a lengthy description how far from actual ownership and free market the whole thing was... and then also think that the US is anywhere near that.

You seem like a broken record. Look at how Venezuela was in January 1999. Do you think it was anywhere near that?

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

I'm sorry, that's just nonsense.

It isn't.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

You can take some of Trump's promises and say this leads to communism just as easily.

As I responded to TwitchySeal earlier, that's based on very selective cherry-picking. The mainstream measures of political economy have nothing to do with what Marx advocated.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

There are some bullshit policies on Kamala's side too, it's fair to ridicule them but again, saying that those things somehow relate to communism is absurd and makes no sense outside of the whatever infobubble you pulled that from.

What is not infobubble no matter how much you want to use that term to disqualify the argument is that Kamala explicitly says she wants a society where everyone ends up equal, and that is a commonality of all communist societies that have been implemented, that everyone ends up equally poor thanks to a state that is dedicated to planning the economy rather than leaving it in the hands of free interacting individuals. What is also not infobubble is the taste for censorship from Democrat/Labor/Socialist positions. What Kamala wants to do is to increase state power and control, in economics not only by increasing regulations and taxes, but by putting in place CBDCs, which are a financial Big Brother, censor what might hurt the Democratic party, and create a population increasingly dependent on the crumbs given to them by the state instead of a population that can stand on its own feet. That has a lot more to do with communism than what Trump wants to do, which is fine with me if he sticks a rocket up his ass and blows himself up, as long as whoever replaces him advocates policies more prone to the free market.

Quote from: Hispo on October 12, 2024, 08:11:20 AM

There something I don't understand, though.
If Kamala Harris is such a Deranged socialist/communist as people from the Republican party claims her to be, how come she has secured millions of dollars in donations from corporations like Google? ...

I don't get it.

Good point. In my opinion because the regulations and taxes that the Democrats tend to put in place are easy for those large mega corporations to comply with and difficult for small and medium sized businesses to comply with, thus favoring them. And on the other hand because there is nothing new about the phenomenon of communist wealthy people, such as Marx who, as I have explained before, was a bourgeois.

Then they see themselves as saviors of the world from their billionaire mansions, for example by defending mass immigration, when they do not suffer from it. An example is when the governor of Florida sent a busload of illegal immigrants to Marta's vineyard, a self proclaimed sanctuary against immigration (of billionaires) they didn't even last 24 hours.

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism. My mistake. I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born? And who is behind it?

Joseph McCarthy? That would make a lot of sense considering the connection to Trump. But does calling all your enemies communist really redefine communism itself? Embracing ignorance like that makes me uncomfortable - especially on something that was started by Nazi sympathizers. So I hope it's not McCarthy.

Yep, most people in the US think of Communism as a swear word. They have not really reflected on what it means, what could have positive, what are the reasons why it appeared and made perfect sense at a point in time, and now - in my view - how is it utterly unrealisable in modern times, as it ignores some of the most basic human aspirations and motivations.

The mindset is simplistic: communism means the state takes from me to give others. They do not need to know anything else.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 14, 2024, 09:39:36 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 13, 2024, 07:25:39 PM

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism. My mistake. I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born? And who is behind it?

Joseph McCarthy?

From what happened in the real world, smarty pants, from what happened in the countries that implemented the system.

If Marx said that communism was going to be wonderful and in all the countries where it has been implemented there has been nothing but famine, political repression, censorship and millions of dead, I base myself on what is happening in the world and not on what a book said.

Let me get this straight ("from what happened in the real world" is kind of vague) You think that for something to be considered communist, it only need to be labeled as such by politicians you agree with or media you consume today and the views of people who started the communist movement 150+ years ago, and inspired communist governments and people for the next 100 years are irrelevant. Is that right? Or is it because there have been many political parties and nation states that have labeled themselves "communist" and therefor the things they did define communism going forward?

I think that's pretty dumb. "Ignorant" doesn't magically become "Educated" just because enough people are ignorant of the same thing. Just because everyone calls the Native Americans "Indians" doesn't mean they are from India.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 14, 2024, 09:39:36 AM

And who told you that under communism

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

In a communist society, people don't own property.

Was it at a meeting of leftists who think they are the saviors of the world or what?

Nice job pwning the libs with that one.

I read the communist manifesto. But that was written by Karl Marx, someone you think is not relevant to our discussion on the definition of communism. (lol)

And, to be more specific, communists don't think people should own private property, like land, factories, shops, etc. Personal property like clothes and stuff is different and ok.

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The 10 planks of Communism, below. Do they fit your country? Maybe they are only getting stronger in your country, but aren't there yet. Or maybe they are sneaking in, hidden behind false fronts.

From https://www.garynorth.com/public/17240.cfm.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 14, 2024, 09:39:36 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 13, 2024, 07:25:39 PM

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism. My mistake. I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born? And who is behind it?

Joseph McCarthy?

From what happened in the real world, smarty pants, from what happened in the countries that implemented the system.

If Marx said that communism was going to be wonderful and in all the countries where it has been implemented there has been nothing but famine, political repression, censorship and millions of dead, I base myself on what is happening in the world and not on what a book said.

Let me see if I can parse out where this disconnect is happening. You seem to be taking the not uncommon but vague interpretation of "communim" meaning any society that has communism at its ideology, its goal, but hasn't achieved that goal. Which can mean basically anything, from a communist party winning an election to a violent communist regime like NK. Which makes this discussion quite pointless. You can cherry-pick anything from any point in history of any of the communist-ruled countries, or any countries that you personally deem communist, as well as from anything e.g. Karl Marx has said and use it as an irrefutable argument that the US is on its way to communism. Given that most societies tend to progress towards more inclusivity and equality over long term, and many politicians tend to make crowd-pleasing promises, it's a very easy and very misleading way to put some extra fearmongering into a political debate.

I personally find this way too cringy to continue. Arguing about communism from a comfort of everything that a modern democratic market-based society can offer... on a bitcoin forum... it's just surreal. Tell you what, if Kamala tries to do communism, I'll just illegally migrate to Canada. Problem solved. Good luck in Alaska.

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Today Kamala Harris is floating the idea of giving Black Americans a $20,000 loan they don’t have to repay. I guess I’m curious what the cutoff will be. Do you have to be 100% African American? Less than 50% like Harris herself? What about people who are 25% African American? Is this going to be the new way to buy votes? Offer to give money to entire races?

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 14, 2024, 10:12:01 AM

The Fed's greatest accomplishment is convincing people that they can change their country by dividing them into blue and red camps, while most financial issues we experience actually stem from the way fiat currency works, something that is not controlled by Trump, Kamala, or even Congress.

The two parties certainly have different agendas and do influence the economy, but it's remarkable how much attention is given to politicians, while so little is said about those who actually manage the money supply.

You've got a point here but the thing is that if I have to choose between those who want more state control and less freedom for the citizen, more CBDCs and less bitcoin or the other way around, or between more censorship or more freedom of expression I prefer the latter.

In general, I have long since realized that the best thing to do is to make a living regardless of what the politicians do, but with the election bet I have entered into heated debates.

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Farewell, Leo

The Fed's greatest accomplishment is convincing people that they can change their country by dividing them into blue and red camps, while most financial issues we experience actually stem from the way fiat currency works, something that is not controlled by Trump, Kamala, or even Congress.

The two parties certainly have different agendas and do influence the economy, but it's remarkable how much attention is given to politicians, while so little is said about those who actually manage the money supply.

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 13, 2024, 07:25:39 PM

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism. My mistake. I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born? And who is behind it?

Joseph McCarthy?

From what happened in the real world, smarty pants, from what happened in the countries that implemented the system.

If Marx said that communism was going to be wonderful and in all the countries where it has been implemented there has been nothing but famine, political repression, censorship and millions of dead, I base myself on what is happening in the world and not on what a book said.

And who told you that under communism

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

In a communist society, people don't own property.

Was it at a meeting of leftists who think they are the saviors of the world or what?

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Quote from: Hispo on October 13, 2024, 08:18:53 PM

Quote from: BADecker on October 13, 2024, 02:20:06 PM

...

Since the Dem Deep State already has control of Amazon and Google, why would they want to seize them? You can see the control in the lack of media freedom they operate, both in the air waves, and in the books that are being suppressed.

So, what is Trump supposed to do which he could not do when he was president to attack the so called Dem deep state which alledgedly has control over companies which are publicly traded, like Amazon and Google? He cannot seize them because that is communism and communism is bad and according to you the government of the United State does not have the power to get private property from people.
In reality, if Trump get re-elected he won't do anything meaningful or positive besides some tax cuts for the rich and perhaps negotiating with Putin on how much of Ukraine he is going to keep for himself and that's it.

By the way, you would consider the USA has literally violated the rights of their own citizens in the past for the sake of programs like MkUltra. Of the government is willing to kidnap people to test drugs on them then I am sure they won't have much of a problem stealing private property and getting away with it.

You generally can't do things that you don't know about. But now that Trump knows about the censoring that the Deep State is doing, he can combat it.

The control that the Deep State has is the voluntary operation of the companies that the Deep State has control over. In other words, company leaders are part of the Deep State.

If seizing companies is the only way that you can think of that Trump could take control, there might not be any way to explain things to you without writing a book.

The meaningful things that Trump might do when elected, is to prosecute Deep State people for the illegal things that they do.

Yes, the US has violated the rights of their citizens and people. Or is it the United States at all? There is law that says that if a government person acts illegally, he is not acting with government authority, but personally. It is partially the peoples' fault for not learning about how the common law works. If they knew, there would be very little adjudication against them, even if they were guilty.

If people knew just a little law, long ago, the IRS tax and drivers licenses would have become non-existent... at least in the US.

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Quote from: BADecker on October 13, 2024, 02:20:06 PM

...

Since the Dem Deep State already has control of Amazon and Google, why would they want to seize them? You can see the control in the lack of media freedom they operate, both in the air waves, and in the books that are being suppressed.

So, what is Trump supposed to do which he could not do when he was president to attack the so called Dem deep state which alledgedly has control over companies which are publicly traded, like Amazon and Google? He cannot seize them because that is communism and communism is bad and according to you the government of the United State does not have the power to get private property from people.
In reality, if Trump get re-elected he won't do anything meaningful or positive besides some tax cuts for the rich and perhaps negotiating with Putin on how much of Ukraine he is going to keep for himself and that's it.

By the way, you would consider the USA has literally violated the rights of their own citizens in the past for the sake of programs like MkUltra. Of the government is willing to kidnap people to test drugs on them then I am sure they won't have much of a problem stealing private property and getting away with it.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 13, 2024, 04:09:05 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

LOL... houses?

Our discussions remind me of the never-ending story.

The point here is that TwitchySeal has started giving me lessons on communist theory when I am not ignorant of it, far from it, by saying that

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

In a communist society, people don't own property.

when the fact is that people did own property.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

Typical soviet family had to wait years to be able get an allocation to "buy" a car.

I know, I know, it's not the first time I've put this joke on the forum:

Reagan Joke -- Soviet Union and Getting A New Automobile

The fact is that no matter how you put it, in communist countries there is private property, no matter how much you want to put things in quotation marks or how much there are differences with private property in the free world.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

And that wasn't even communism, that was just what they called socialism in progress of building communism.

This is what many communists claim (I'm not saying you do), as if to say that real communism has never been implemented and that when it is implemented it will be wonderful. For me it is the opposite, if what has been implemented that has not reached Marx's ideal but almost, if it is implemented what tens of millions of starving and freezing dead will seem like child's play.

On the other hand, I do not know how there are people who take Marx's ideas as a pious person takes the bible. Marx was a violent drunkard who was imprisoned for it and who led a bourgeois life, an example of “do as I say but not as I do”.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

Not sure how you could read the article you linked to and think "yeah that proves soviets had private property" even though it's a lengthy description how far from actual ownership and free market the whole thing was... and then also think that the US is anywhere near that.

You seem like a broken record. Look at how Venezuela was in January 1999. Do you think it was anywhere near that?

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

I'm sorry, that's just nonsense.

It isn't.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

You can take some of Trump's promises and say this leads to communism just as easily.

As I responded to TwitchySeal earlier, that's based on very selective cherry-picking. The mainstream measures of political economy have nothing to do with what Marx advocated.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

There are some bullshit policies on Kamala's side too, it's fair to ridicule them but again, saying that those things somehow relate to communism is absurd and makes no sense outside of the whatever infobubble you pulled that from.

What is not infobubble no matter how much you want to use that term to disqualify the argument is that Kamala explicitly says she wants a society where everyone ends up equal, and that is a commonality of all communist societies that have been implemented, that everyone ends up equally poor thanks to a state that is dedicated to planning the economy rather than leaving it in the hands of free interacting individuals. What is also not infobubble is the taste for censorship from Democrat/Labor/Socialist positions. What Kamala wants to do is to increase state power and control, in economics not only by increasing regulations and taxes, but by putting in place CBDCs, which are a financial Big Brother, censor what might hurt the Democratic party, and create a population increasingly dependent on the crumbs given to them by the state instead of a population that can stand on its own feet. That has a lot more to do with communism than what Trump wants to do, which is fine with me if he sticks a rocket up his ass and blows himself up, as long as whoever replaces him advocates policies more prone to the free market.

Quote from: Hispo on October 12, 2024, 08:11:20 AM

There something I don't understand, though.
If Kamala Harris is such a Deranged socialist/communist as people from the Republican party claims her to be, how come she has secured millions of dollars in donations from corporations like Google? ...

I don't get it.

Good point. In my opinion because the regulations and taxes that the Democrats tend to put in place are easy for those large mega corporations to comply with and difficult for small and medium sized businesses to comply with, thus favoring them. And on the other hand because there is nothing new about the phenomenon of communist wealthy people, such as Marx who, as I have explained before, was a bourgeois.

Then they see themselves as saviors of the world from their billionaire mansions, for example by defending mass immigration, when they do not suffer from it. An example is when the governor of Florida sent a busload of illegal immigrants to Marta's vineyard, a self proclaimed sanctuary against immigration (of billionaires) they didn't even last 24 hours.

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism. My mistake. I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born? And who is behind it?

Joseph McCarthy? That would make a lot of sense considering the connection to Trump. But does calling all your enemies communist really redefine communism itself? Embracing ignorance like that makes me uncomfortable - especially on something that was started by Nazi sympathizers. So I hope it's not McCarthy.

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Quote from: paxmao on October 13, 2024, 06:01:43 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 05:41:23 PM

Quote from: BADecker on October 11, 2024, 05:31:06 PM

But you can't take any of Cabala's promises and show that they DON'T lead to Communism.

Careful now comrade. You don't want to get deported to Alaska for mangling the name of the Supreme Leader (or maybe you do, in which case I apologize).

Maybe he lives in Alaska, it would explain most of the symptoms.

Venezuela is now the common place to mention to most right and far right parties. It happens not only in the US, but also in Europe. Curiously enough, most of the extreme right and right conveniently forget that authoritarians regimes are mostly doing economically and socially worse and most of them have little in common with communism.

In my view, Trump's policies could be discussed, the problem is that is into changing the political regime (short of an imperfect democracy) for an authoritarian regime. Questioning voting, representatives, the public officials, the judges (while setting his own SCOTUS)... all looks more of a takeover than a political programme.

Again just "play a little game" - what would someone trying to take over a government, whether winning or loosing elections do and say? And now, what is Trump doing and saying?

Trump has been saying that the Dem Deep State has already taken over the government, and the thing that he is trying to do is get it back to give to the people. Sure, he might change. Nobody knows. But such is what he was doing his first term... 'giving' to the people.

Quote from: Hispo on October 13, 2024, 12:30:19 PM

Quote from: BADecker on October 12, 2024, 11:41:13 AM

Quote from: Hispo on October 12, 2024, 08:11:20 AM

...

It's all about money. Those at the top want more. Those who are share-holders want more. And they are getting more. But look at what it is doing to the US economy.

If the Communism ways were so good, why has Biden's economy brought on such inflation and economic hardship? Cabala would be the same, right?

Cool

Why has not Google and Amazon, among other big corporations donated millions of dollars to the Communist party of America or the Socialist Party of America, instead they donate much money to the Democrat party. It is interesting, to say the least.

Though, I agree with you when you say all of those donations is about using money to get more money, but it is not through the establishment of a new communist system of government within the USA, all those Wall Street wolves and CEOs are afraid of the authentic left to seize power in the country, that is why they fund the Democrat party, which are progressives but they are capitalist. If there was not as much political division in your country people would realize both the Democrat and Republican party are pretty much running to keep the same capitalist and wealth system in place. It is a good reason why Trump would never dare to "sunset" social security and Kamala would never dare to seize big corporations like Google or Apple, they are all in their position to keep the same people happy. You know.

Since the Dem Deep State already has control of Amazon and Google, why would they want to seize them? You can see the control in the lack of media freedom they operate, both in the air waves, and in the books that are being suppressed.

Last year the Social Security increase was a measly 3.2%... way less than inflation. Yet there were $billions given to Ukraine. This shows that the Biden/Cabala Deep State has already "sunsetted" much or most of SS. Trump has expressed that he is of a mind to overturn that "sunsetting."

Cool

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Quote from: BADecker on October 12, 2024, 11:41:13 AM

Quote from: Hispo on October 12, 2024, 08:11:20 AM

...

It's all about money. Those at the top want more. Those who are share-holders want more. And they are getting more. But look at what it is doing to the US economy.

If the Communism ways were so good, why has Biden's economy brought on such inflation and economic hardship? Cabala would be the same, right?

Cool

Why has not Google and Amazon, among other big corporations donated millions of dollars to the Communist party of America or the Socialist Party of America, instead they donate much money to the Democrat party. It is interesting, to say the least.

Though, I agree with you when you say all of those donations is about using money to get more money, but it is not through the establishment of a new communist system of government within the USA, all those Wall Street wolves and CEOs are afraid of the authentic left to seize power in the country, that is why they fund the Democrat party, which are progressives but they are capitalist. If there was not as much political division in your country people would realize both the Democrat and Republican party are pretty much running to keep the same capitalist and wealth system in place. It is a good reason why Trump would never dare to "sunset" social security and Kamala would never dare to seize big corporations like Google or Apple, they are all in their position to keep the same people happy. You know.

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 05:41:23 PM

Quote from: BADecker on October 11, 2024, 05:31:06 PM

But you can't take any of Cabala's promises and show that they DON'T lead to Communism.

Careful now comrade. You don't want to get deported to Alaska for mangling the name of the Supreme Leader (or maybe you do, in which case I apologize).

Maybe he lives in Alaska, it would explain most of the symptoms.

Venezuela is now the common place to mention to most right and far right parties. It happens not only in the US, but also in Europe. Curiously enough, most of the extreme right and right conveniently forget that authoritarians regimes are mostly doing economically and socially worse and most of them have little in common with communism.

In my view, Trump's policies could be discussed, the problem is that is into changing the political regime (short of an imperfect democracy) for an authoritarian regime. Questioning voting, representatives, the public officials, the judges (while setting his own SCOTUS)... all looks more of a takeover than a political programme.

Again just "play a little game" - what would someone trying to take over a government, whether winning or loosing elections do and say? And now, what is Trump doing and saying?

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

LOL... houses?

Our discussions remind me of the never-ending story.

The point here is that TwitchySeal has started giving me lessons on communist theory when I am not ignorant of it, far from it, by saying that

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

In a communist society, people don't own property.

when the fact is that people did own property.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

Typical soviet family had to wait years to be able get an allocation to "buy" a car.

I know, I know, it's not the first time I've put this joke on the forum:

Reagan Joke -- Soviet Union and Getting A New Automobile

The fact is that no matter how you put it, in communist countries there is private property, no matter how much you want to put things in quotation marks or how much there are differences with private property in the free world.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

And that wasn't even communism, that was just what they called socialism in progress of building communism.

This is what many communists claim (I'm not saying you do), as if to say that real communism has never been implemented and that when it is implemented it will be wonderful. For me it is the opposite, if what has been implemented that has not reached Marx's ideal but almost, if it is implemented what tens of millions of starving and freezing dead will seem like child's play.

On the other hand, I do not know how there are people who take Marx's ideas as a pious person takes the bible. Marx was a violent drunkard who was imprisoned for it and who led a bourgeois life, an example of “do as I say but not as I do”.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

Not sure how you could read the article you linked to and think "yeah that proves soviets had private property" even though it's a lengthy description how far from actual ownership and free market the whole thing was... and then also think that the US is anywhere near that.

You seem like a broken record. Look at how Venezuela was in January 1999. Do you think it was anywhere near that?

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

I'm sorry, that's just nonsense.

It isn't.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

You can take some of Trump's promises and say this leads to communism just as easily.

As I responded to TwitchySeal earlier, that's based on very selective cherry-picking. The mainstream measures of political economy have nothing to do with what Marx advocated.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

There are some bullshit policies on Kamala's side too, it's fair to ridicule them but again, saying that those things somehow relate to communism is absurd and makes no sense outside of the whatever infobubble you pulled that from.

What is not infobubble no matter how much you want to use that term to disqualify the argument is that Kamala explicitly says she wants a society where everyone ends up equal, and that is a commonality of all communist societies that have been implemented, that everyone ends up equally poor thanks to a state that is dedicated to planning the economy rather than leaving it in the hands of free interacting individuals. What is also not infobubble is the taste for censorship from Democrat/Labor/Socialist positions. What Kamala wants to do is to increase state power and control, in economics not only by increasing regulations and taxes, but by putting in place CBDCs, which are a financial Big Brother, censor what might hurt the Democratic party, and create a population increasingly dependent on the crumbs given to them by the state instead of a population that can stand on its own feet. That has a lot more to do with communism than what Trump wants to do, which is fine with me if he sticks a rocket up his ass and blows himself up, as long as whoever replaces him advocates policies more prone to the free market.

Quote from: Hispo on October 12, 2024, 08:11:20 AM

There something I don't understand, though.
If Kamala Harris is such a Deranged socialist/communist as people from the Republican party claims her to be, how come she has secured millions of dollars in donations from corporations like Google? ...

I don't get it.

Good point. In my opinion because the regulations and taxes that the Democrats tend to put in place are easy for those large mega corporations to comply with and difficult for small and medium sized businesses to comply with, thus favoring them. And on the other hand because there is nothing new about the phenomenon of communist wealthy people, such as Marx who, as I have explained before, was a bourgeois.

Then they see themselves as saviors of the world from their billionaire mansions, for example by defending mass immigration, when they do not suffer from it. An example is when the governor of Florida sent a busload of illegal immigrants to Marta's vineyard, a self proclaimed sanctuary against immigration (of billionaires) they didn't even last 24 hours.

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Quote from: Hispo on October 12, 2024, 08:11:20 AM

There something I don't understand, though.
If Kamala Harris is such a Deranged socialist/communist as people from the Republican party claims her to be, how come she has secured millions of dollars in donations from corporations like Google? Those corporations and big businesses are all in for capitalism and free market, would not they be commiting a big mistake by donating and helping a communist to get elected into the White House? - You need to remember that the control of those big companies is in the hands of the heads of the companies, not the little people. It's like the Politburo in Russia. Those leaders are not the little people.

They like Cabala because she is their puppet that they can turn any way they want. She listens to them, and does what they want. That's how she gets money from them.

They have made money from the policies of the Dem Deep State. One of the ways is the war in Ukraine. They might deplore killing, but they don't have to face it (being in the US), and the money is good... through their media that they get paid by when they support things like the war.
Because, as far as I know, communism within the United States would explicitly mean the end of those corporations as we know it, as they would be likely seized by the state or absorbed by the state. - But the big corporate leaders would be the new Communist leaders in America through their puppets in the formal government.
There are also important business people who are well know democrats... so how come those who are rich and own a high percentage of their fortune in shares of companies in Wall street agree to support an alledged communist?

I don't get it.

It's all about money. Those at the top want more. Those who are share-holders want more. And they are getting more. But look at what it is doing to the US economy.

If the Communism ways were so good, why has Biden's economy brought on such inflation and economic hardship? Cabala would be the same, right?

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There something I don't understand, though.
If Kamala Harris is such a Deranged socialist/communist as people from the Republican party claims her to be, how come she has secured millions of dollars in donations from corporations like Google? Those corporations and big businesses are all in for capitalism and free market, would not they be commiting a big mistake by donating and helping a communist to get elected into the White House?
Because, as far as I know, communism within the United States would explicitly mean the end of those corporations as we know it, as they would be likely seized by the state or absorbed by the state.
There are also important business people who are well know democrats... so how come those who are rich and own a high percentage of their fortune in shares of companies in Wall street agree to support an alledged communist?

I don't get it.

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I agree that there is a sense of communism in a potential Kamala led government. Well, her handlers prefer to run things that way. The good thing is that it appears Trump is building a significant lead if you believe sources like Polymarket. Trump is a better option for free speech, business & obviously crypto.

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 05:41:23 PM

Quote from: BADecker on October 11, 2024, 05:31:06 PM

But you can't take any of Cabala's promises and show that they DON'T lead to Communism.

Careful now comrade. You don't want to get deported to Alaska for mangling the name of the Supreme Leader (or maybe you do, in which case I apologize).

Freedom under Trump, even for you. Cool

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Quote from: BADecker on October 11, 2024, 05:31:06 PM

But you can't take any of Cabala's promises and show that they DON'T lead to Communism.

Careful now comrade. You don't want to get deported to Alaska for mangling the name of the Supreme Leader (or maybe you do, in which case I apologize).

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2024, 01:42:59 PM

You can take some of Trump's promises and say this leads to communism just as easily.

But you can't take any of Cabala's promises and show that they DON'T lead to Communism.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 11, 2024, 11:12:38 AM

False. To know so much about communist theory you don't understand the basics, what you don't have in communist societies is ownership of the means of production, but people had private possessions like cars, clothes and houses.

LOL... houses?

Typical soviet family had to wait years to be able get an allocation to "buy" a car. Even worse with apartments (forget houses; even in rural areas people tended to be forced into multi-tenant buildings), which unless you were high up in the communist party hierarchy you'd be waiting for decades. None of that was a real purchase of course, because the money did not have the value that the government said it would have, and the missing part of that value (the decades-long lines) had to be "earned" with underpaid labor or acquired via bribes/black market/etc.

Even getting basic stuff like socks or sugar often wasn't as simple as going to the store and buying it. There were allocations, limits, queues, party bosses with dibs, etc.

And that wasn't even communism, that was just what they called socialism in progress of building communism. They were partially successful in (almost) getting rid of money, that was quite a feat.

Not sure how you could read the article you linked to and think "yeah that proves soviets had private property" even though it's a lengthy description how far from actual ownership and free market the whole thing was... and then also think that the US is anywhere near that.

Quote from: Poker Player on October 11, 2024, 11:12:38 AM

Then there are societies such as North Korea that restrict property more, and others that restrict it less, but in all of them there is private property, otherwise it would not make sense to have a currency circulating to buy goods and services.

The "native" currency was worthless, that's the whole point. USD was the real currency in USSR but very few had access to it until late 1980s when the shit really hit the fan. Some goods and services could be used as currency (BADecker would have loved this).

Quote from: Poker Player on October 11, 2024, 11:12:38 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 09, 2024, 03:11:23 PM

Throwing "communism" around like this defeats whatever point you might be trying to make. Any sane person looks at this and looks at North Korea and knows this is a bullshit argument.

Any sane person who looks not only at North Korea but also at what happened in Venezuela, for example, realizes that the only way to implement communism is not overnight. It can also be implemented little by little, step by step, saying that you are not a communist but that it is unfair that the rich earn so much and that the best thing is for the state to take away what they earn so that we are all equal, and the story ends with everyone being equally poor, those who survive.

Kamala is not going to implement a communism overnight, she is going to go little by little. What's more, the latest from the Democratic party is wanting to abolish the first amendment. Have you heard Kerry and Walz talk about it? A project that seems to have been dreamed up by a high ranking Stalinist. Ban what can't be said from a state body, controlled by the Democrats, of course.

I'm sorry, that's just nonsense. You can take some of Trump's promises and say this leads to communism just as easily. There are some bullshit policies on Kamala's side too, it's fair to ridicule them but again, saying that those things somehow relate to communism is absurd and makes no sense outside of the whatever infobubble you pulled that from.

By the way, soviet regime was (and Russian regime still mostly is) extremely homophobic, xenophobic, tough on whatever it deemed a crime, and peddling massive amounts of fearmongering to keep the population scared and subservient. I wouldn't be surprised if Newt Gingrich and other "architects" of modern GOP learned from that.

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It is funny the USA is starting to resemble the communist Soviet Union where people die from poverty while Russia is slowly becoming like the old patriotic capitalist USA.

Needless to say, fuck communism.

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

You're not going to like to hear this, but communism is not about "equal outcomes". It's about equal distribution or access/availability of goods and services through a market and economy fully controlled by the state.

Why wouldn't I like to hear that? You don't explain anything new to me, I know as much about communist theory as you do or more.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

In a communist society, people don't own property.

False. To know so much about communist theory you don't understand the basics, what you don't have in communist societies is ownership of the means of production, but people had private possessions like cars, clothes and houses.

Soviet law in Principles and policies

What It Was Like To Buy And Own A Car In The USSR

What items of status did Soviet people own? (PHOTOS)

Then there are societies such as North Korea that restrict property more, and others that restrict it less, but in all of them there is private property, otherwise it would not make sense to have a currency circulating to buy goods and services.

If you start with such falsehood, and above all getting merits for it, lol, it is going to be very difficult to debate.

Are you going to admit that what you have said is false or what?

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

It's ironic, but Marx would agree with a lot of the arguments being made by right wingers who include 'communism' and 'equality of outcomes' in their rhetoric (except for what communism is implied to be):

Yes, I've heard that nonsense based on a very selective cherry pick many times. I'm sure Marx advocated that the best thing the state can do to improve the lives of individuals is to allow them freedom, mainly with few regulations, few taxes, and respecting freedom of enterprise.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on October 08, 2024, 09:18:14 PM

When Kamala starts suggesting ideas that are distinct to communism, like that we'd be better off without free markets, or getting rid of the concept of private property, then it would make sense to call her a communist.

Here the question is that the regimes that ended communist dictatorships, especially after the fall of the Berlin Wall, have initially tried to dissociate themselves from communism when they are just another variant. Look at what Hispo says, who lives in Venezuela, and who knows first hand what happened there, when it all started with Chavez saying he was “socialist” when in reality he was just another communist.

So now she says nothing about free markets but is in favor of an increasing interventionism and as for private property, just look at how she talks about “children of the community” and you can get an idea of the respect she has for the property and freedom of individuals and their families.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 09, 2024, 03:11:23 PM

Thank you, but (1) I don't think I'm "lefty", you seem to be over-extrapolating too much from me not supporting a grifter who happens to be a Republican; and (2) none of what you're complaining about is communism.

If you are not lefty I am not right-wing because I believe that the US health care system is garbage and should be changed to one where everyone is cared for without being bankrupt, because I believe that the gambling sector has to be strongly regulated and monitored by the state, and because on moral issues such as abortion, gay marriage and others I tend to converge with leftist positions, although I do not buy into feminazism. If what you mean is that you are a free thinker who happens not to converge with a lot of what Trump says, the same thing happens to me but with Kamala.

Quote from: suchmoon on October 09, 2024, 03:11:23 PM

Throwing "communism" around like this defeats whatever point you might be trying to make. Any sane person looks at this and looks at North Korea and knows this is a bullshit argument.

Any sane person who looks not only at North Korea but also at what happened in Venezuela, for example, realizes that the only way to implement communism is not overnight. It can also be implemented little by little, step by step, saying that you are not a communist but that it is unfair that the rich earn so much and that the best thing is for the state to take away what they earn so that we are all equal, and the story ends with everyone being equally poor, those who survive.

Kamala is not going to implement a communism overnight, she is going to go little by little. What's more, the latest from the Democratic party is wanting to abolish the first amendment. Have you heard Kerry and Walz talk about it? A project that seems to have been dreamed up by a high ranking Stalinist. Ban what can't be said from a state body, controlled by the Democrats, of course.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 08, 2024, 01:12:46 PM

Dedicated to my lefty friends suchmoon, paxmao and the rest.

Thank you, but (1) I don't think I'm "lefty", you seem to be over-extrapolating too much from me not supporting a grifter who happens to be a Republican; and (2) none of what you're complaining about is communism.

Communism the way it was explained to me by the people who literally tried to implement it on my sorry ass means "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs" (I think it's a quote from the "Critique of the Gotha Programme" Twitchy referred to above). Basically doing away with money and private property, making everyone work as much as they can (presumably some form of slave/forced labor because there is no other incentive to work), and giving everyone just enough food etc for basic needs. Ironically some entrepreneurs seem to have come closer to implementing this sort of communism - e.g. "company towns", or modern tech startups - than Stalin et al, whose attempts inevitably devolved into corrupt dysfunctional shitholes.

Throwing "communism" around like this defeats whatever point you might be trying to make. Any sane person looks at this and looks at North Korea and knows this is a bullshit argument.

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In the case of Venezuela, it all started with a socialist experiment led by the ex-president Hugo Chavez, he conquered the heart of the people and the masses with his discourse and his promise to a better nation through the fair distribution of the wealth (petroleum wealth) for the needy and the middle class, disregarding the role of the big businesses and the companies within the country.
I recall the interesting period of time when Chavez himself started to seize and take over companies previously owned by private individuals, most of them have ended up in bankruptcy because of the lack of talent and ability within the ranks of the government itself.
It started with slthe building of socialism in the XXl century, as they started to call it, but has ended up with something similar to facism or kleptocracy.
People using their political point of advantage and position to get as much money as possible from oil and gold, behind the backs of the people of the country.

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You're not going to like to hear this, but communism is not about "equal outcomes". It's about equal distribution or access/availability of goods and services through a market and economy fully controlled by the state.

In a communist society, people don't own property. There are no free markets.

It's ironic, but Marx would agree with a lot of the arguments being made by right wingers who include 'communism' and 'equality of outcomes' in their rhetoric (except for what communism is implied to be):

Quote

What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values. Content and form are changed, because under the altered circumstances no one can give anything except his labor, and because, on the other hand, nothing can pass to the ownership of individuals, except individual means of consumption. But as far as the distribution of the latter among the individual producers is concerned, the same principle prevails as in the exchange of commodity equivalents: a given amount of labor in one form is exchanged for an equal amount of labor in another form.

Hence, equal right here is still in principle – bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads, while the exchange of equivalents in commodity exchange exists only on the average and not in the individual case.

In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor.

But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

- Karl Marx
Critique of the Gotha Programme

When Kamala starts suggesting ideas that are distinct to communism, like that we'd be better off without free markets, or getting rid of the concept of private property, then it would make sense to call her a communist.

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Gradually people are seeing through the Cabala lies. You can only cover gravel up with delicious looking frosting for so long, before people will figure out their is gravel underneath.

Remember the old adage:
You can fool all the people some of the time, and
You can fool some of the people all the time, but
You can't fool all the people all of the time.

Cabala is losing it.

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In case it is not clear what is at stake in the upcoming US elections, it is necessary to remind ourselves of this:

VP Kamala Harris touts EQUITY: "Everybody should end up in the same place"

As much as she would deny being a communist if asked explicitly, she cannot hide it. She clearly says that everyone should not only start from the same place, which is impossible, but end up in the same place. And who would guarantee that? She does, a communist politician, who promises to achieve this through state planning.

Whenever this ideology has been tried to be implemented, it has always ended in the same way: genocides that make Hitler look like an amateur, political repression, massive population, exoduses, famines, etc. There is not a single time that such a political system has been tried and has not ended in atrocious dictatorships and genocide. And at the same time, the more people have killed that system and the more it has failed, the more popular it is with university professors and posh billionaires.

No Mrs. Harris, do not deceive people. In the civilised world we should be equal in rights and opportunities but neither equal in birth nor of course equal in results thanks to a politician, because in the same way that there are working people there are lazy people, also there are people who invest what they earn and there are people who spend it on whores and cocaine, so no, do not come here with a story of Alice in Wonderland to promise the impossible, as Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro and Maduro among others did.

We have an election discussion thread but I didn't want this to be buried on a secondary page because this is the main issue at stake in this election: free world vs. price controls, censorship, impoverishment of the population caused by the policies taken and blaming it on capitalism, repression of individual freedom and so on and so forth.

Dedicated to my lefty friends suchmoon, paxmao and the rest.

Topic: Communism vs Free World= Kamala vs Trump. (Read 1045 times)