Topic: Compiling a list of heroes with socialist tendencies (Read 340 times)

George Orwell was certainly a socialist, and certainly not a Soviet-style communist. When he signed up for the Spanish Civil War, he was rejected by the International Brigades specifically because of his anti-communist sentiment, and fought instead under Poum, which was pro-socialist and fervently anti-Stalinist.


It doesn't make sense to conflate socialism and totalitarian communism; they are very different to one another. You can't attack Soviet communism and say therefore socialism is bad, that's a straw man.

Animal Farm was pro-socialist and anti-Stalinist. You are right that it was a critique of totalitarian communism, in that it was a more or less overt attack on Stalin. The Stalin vs Trotsky angle is represented in the novel by Napoleon vs Snowball. It's quite clear.

Here's a photo of Orwell literally fighting for socialism in the 30's.


https://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/library/digest20014_jacobs1.jpg

yep americans get their ideals from soap opera tv.
when woman have worked for centuries. non stop. and worked even more when men went to war.
americans think due to the 1950's propaganda of 'woman in the kitchen' (bewitched/ i love lucy)
heck even more modern stuff 'real housewives'. it falesly portrayed that women belong in the kitchen.. .. and american men believed it.

they cant grasp the fact that the women on tv were not actually housewives. they were actresses. getting paid to work. getting paid to act and be on camera playing a role.
instead of realising thewoman on tv was a paid actress. they only seen a woman in the kitchen.
.. not understanding the difference between the acting and the real world

same with socialism and communism. they grasp their false narratives from TV. they never actually study how the money actually flows and who ultimately benefits.

socialism is that the citizens benefit. communism is politicians benefit. capitalism is the elite corporations benefit.

people on low income have been dupped into capitalism with the HOPE that 'we can be the elite too someday' not realising that while you dream about someday. .. today the elites are syphoning money AWAY from you.
keeping you poor.

if you think its good to charge 3x on the cost of goods because 'capitalism deserves profits' that means yo are paying a 200% tax on the cost of goods where that tax is not going to rebuild roads or help you if you become unemployed. its going to sit in an offshore account and buy some guy a yacht that he only uses 10 days a year. and no you wont be invited onto the yacht even though you helped pay for it

so wake up and realise your being taxed 200% to some corporation. and stop complaining about the 20% tax that will help your life get better.(roads to drive on for work/leisure. police to arrest burglars that invade your home.. heck if your lucky to be in some countries.. hospitals to help with your ailments)
yes you are invited to use the roads and police the 20% funded.

Yes, exactly.


Because capitalism (particularly in its laissez-faire variant) is all about entrenching existing power and wealth by exploiting the majority of the population, it tends not to spawn popular heroes (they have to be created artificially).
Socialism, on the other hand, because it's about mass-empowerment and giving everyone equal opportunities, does tend to create heroes.

In the US obviously Bernie Sanders is a hero on the left, because he represents the interests of the majority of people, and stands up for the oppressed and the disenfranchised.

Trump, the popular hero of the right, by contrast, doesn't have natural support. He has to create it by crafting a narrative - which he has done tremendously successfully. For the establishment to become popular amongst ordinary people, they have to pretend to represent common interests by inventing an other who wants to take it away. Cue demonisation of immigrants, foreign powers, etc. The pattern is repeated endlessly throughout history, and is still the strategy of choice. Whilst I despise Trump, I have to admit he is a hugely talented orator and storyteller.

So figures who are heroes to large numbers of people do naturally tend to have socialist principles and aims, which is why I agree with many on the OP's list.
Orwell, Mandela, ML King, Marley, Gandhi and (the legend of) Jesus certainly.

It is normal for an American to confuse communism with socialism. I bet most Americans never heard of christian socialism.
On the other hand, Europeans are much better than Americans on these affairs as most types of socialism were invented by Europeans.

communism is parasitic... dont confuse it with socialism
 i think its you that has the wrong definition. maybe because YOUR understanding of socialism is vague

...
capitalism is where the mass underclass pay towards making the rich richer(imagine a pyramid)
socialism is where mass population pay towards making the poor less poor(imagine a web)
communism is where the mass population pay towards making political leaders rich(imagine a blackhole)

socialism doesnt take away asset ownership rights. it just doesnt use tax funds to then make the rich/powerful more rich powerful.

How could George Orwell be a hero jsut with socialist tendencies?
He was a socialist. And he was a socialist who hated USSR as he found out the truth that those Russian communists are traitors to socialism.

It is not an assumption, it is a fact. Socialism can not exist without either being parasitic on the previous work of others under capitalism, or by having high taxes which are collected by force at the point of the gun to fund these programs. There is NO OTHER WAY for your fantasies to operate in reality. You can claim Socialists aren't affected by gravity as much as you want, but you are still going to drop like an exceptionally dumb rock when you jump from a high place. Your fantasies do not change the nature of reality.

Emmanuel Macron.
Oh wait...

I am not the first person to find  a connection between Jesus and socialism.  Just google the two words if you don't believe me.    You literally deleted all of the supporting quotes for my argument.

Also, I don't even see where you are going with the bold statement and would like further explanation.  Does it matter so much because you are operating under the assumption that socialism must be achieved by forcing others to do something and not by a group of individuals all voluntarily buying into a set of principles.

I've deleted the rest of your post because it does not follow the argument, but segs into what you actually wanted to babble about.

Then I've bolded the answer already provided to what it was already known you would Segway into, so that maybe this time it would sink in.

" We can't claim Jesus was ..."

There is no we talking or that you speak for. There is you.

"I can't claim Jesus was ..." is the proper phraseology.

And with that, I'm putting you on ignore.

There is no point of the list.  The list is just a vehicle for a thought experiment that gives people an opportunity to exchange views and perspectives.  I am using it to gain insight on how people perceive some of these otherwise touchy topics. I also realize these people may also have had "capitalist tendencies" and welcome those arguments be put forward for the sake of debate.  

Of course capitalism and socialism didn't exist at the time of Jesus which is why the topic says "tendencies" which I am deriving simply from quotes.   I am not the first to suggest this.  Several Popes and christian leaders have slammed capitalism throughout history.  Christian socialism is a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism



Matthew 19:16-24

Matthew 6:24

Luke 12:16-21

So Jesus thought being rich was bad.  That much is clear.  I don't see how anyone could do mental gymnastics around this one.  But was that the only socialist tendency?
Deut 15:11
Mark 10:21

John 3: 17

Luke 14:12-14

Luke 3:11

So it seems clear that in addition not being rich, Jesus wanted his followers to give the poor whatever they need.  I'll close with this quote from an article on the topic to drive home the point.


  We can't claim Jesus was an actual socialist but we can claim is that in a hypothetical society where all individuals believed in and followed these words of Jesus christ, it would be the most socialist society that ever was.   Show me why you think my claim is wrong.  

It's not that it doesn't make any sense, it is simply wrong.

There is no single quote attributable to Jesus about group behavior or constraints, his focus was on the individual.

Actually I think the one he did get right on this list was Lincoln. Lincoln actually held a personal correspondence with Karl Marx. Except even though he is lauded, if you actually look into his history he was a tyrant, quite a piece of shit, and not very bright either.

As a strong left winger... I don't see the point of this list?

And anyway socialism and socialists have changed a lot through the years. What does that even mean?

Jesus a socialist? Why? That doesn't make any sense!

And yet understanding neither?

Lol

Lincoln and George Orwell.

Add Trump and Mises to the list as well!

nice idea with "coins4commies" but how will you deal with the imprisonment by the corrupt indexmafia?

or the fact that the commie coins will become effective capitalists.

Jesus was a Socialist? I see you believe in Jesus, as long as it fits your arguments now?

LOL. George Orwell (not his name, really Eric Arthur Blair) fought actual fascists, so for a brief period he thought Communism was the good guy. Soon he learned, and guess what, he fought Commies too! He was no Socialist. He even wrote a book about the dangers of Communism/Marxism called Animal Farm! Orwell was anti-totalitarianism, not anti-capitalism.

This is why you like to keep your definition of Socialism vague and amorphous, so when it doesn't work like with Hitler you can say it wasn't Socialism. Then when a group or individual does some thing good you can say "look Socialism!".

Socialism has nothing of its own, it is parasitic in nature and requires the theft of resources of others, usually at the expense of the goals of the group or individual in the name of spreading Marxist ideologies. Socialism and Communism are a mind virus. Its only job is to spread itself at all costs.

How long do you think the list of villains with Socialist tendencies would be? I think much longer.

Academics have bastardized history and filled your brain with rubbish?

Next lie you'll tell me is that Lincoln's republicans are actually the democrats of today.   

I've had this list in my head for a while and want to write it down so it can be challenged.  That is why I didn't put it on r/socialism.  I feel like there are a lot of capitalists on here so the list will be challenged to the fullest.  Some names will be obvious and some may be controversial.  Feel free to add or challenge anyone and I will provide the socialist quotes.

Jesus Christ
Albert Einstein
George Orwell
Nelson Mandela
Martin Luther King
Tupac Shakur
Bob Marley
John Lennon (almost wrote John Lenin lol)
Stephen Hawking
Mahatma Gandi
Abraham Lincoln

Growing up as a capitalist I looked up to all these people and had no idea they were socialists until recent years when I went back and reviewed the work after learning about socialism.    Many of these people were assassinated and people loved them so much they hold theories that they are still alive.   I often wonder where we would be with their leadership today.