Author

Topic: Confusing Capitalism with Fractional Reserve Banking (Read 2194 times)

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).



LOL smile  // Rebirth of a worthwhile old topic.

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Original Primary Questions

Do you think "capitalism" is to blame for many of the world's problems?
Do you know what real Capitalism is?
member
Activity: 602
Merit: 10
God is with us
I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).


Lol. The best pic about anti-capitalistic flame.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
This is not true. If you were to make $1,000 for the company you work for, the company will need to invest in both you and in equipment to help you make money for the company. Most workers do not know company specific processes and procedures that must be followed, so they are trained when they enter into a new position at a company, workers will almost always earn their normal wage during this training period. The company will also need to pay for the equipment that you use as part of your job, for example a computer or other machine that you use.

Another thing to remember is that most companies will provide some kind of paid time off (vacation and sick time) - two weeks off per year is generally the lowest this will ever be. Two weeks paid off per year works to almost 4% of the time you will be paid for, and this would eat up the majority of your "5%" discount rate.

The same kind of calculation applies to the rest of factors of production. So with a 5% interest rate the company will pay a rent of $952 per month for a machine, or local, that they consider that will generate products that will be sold for $1000 in 1 year.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
These guys talk as if unemployment or outsourcing doesn't exist
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Wherever you find convenient. You are free.
the ability to pick between between 2 employers who both offer the same thing or have nothing isnt freedom

before you answer learn a skill and find better paying job realise someone else must then fill original workers place in the low pay job and nothing is changed. maybe you personally do well from free market but you should understand the majority dont.

You are paid your discounted marginal value product. If your marginal value product, what you produce, is worth $1000, and the pure interest rate is 5%, you'll get $952. If someone is offering less, go to another employer. All that is in the unhampered free market. Once the government intervenes, you get much less, because of taxes. But then you have to blame the government, not employers.
This is not true. If you were to make $1,000 for the company you work for, the company will need to invest in both you and in equipment to help you make money for the company. Most workers do not know company specific processes and procedures that must be followed, so they are trained when they enter into a new position at a company, workers will almost always earn their normal wage during this training period. The company will also need to pay for the equipment that you use as part of your job, for example a computer or other machine that you use.

Another thing to remember is that most companies will provide some kind of paid time off (vacation and sick time) - two weeks off per year is generally the lowest this will ever be. Two weeks paid off per year works to almost 4% of the time you will be paid for, and this would eat up the majority of your "5%" discount rate.
hero member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 504
You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

+1000

If you don't like your job then work elsewhere, if you don't like your options then start your own business and offer your employees a better deal while working however you want...
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
False. Wasn't enacted in the UK in any serious manner until 1914. Previously, if I wanted to freely work anywhere in the world, I could.

It was a NATO resolution that makes it illegal in international law to be without state (ie to hold no passport) in the 20th century.

A passport is a proof of 'citizenship' and it is a cattle brand to prove which government owns you, it is a choker collar around your neck.
there weren't mass population movements from undeveloped world to civilised world in 1914 so there was no need for such legislation. usa had very strict controls on non western european immigration until 1960s because the threat of coloured and asian immigration was a real problem. then hippy race mixer equality thought came to prevail and the rest is history.

you must mean united nations not nato

Wherever you find convenient. You are free.
the ability to pick between between 2 employers who both offer the same thing or have nothing isnt freedom

before you answer learn a skill and find better paying job realise someone else must then fill original workers place in the low pay job and nothing is changed. maybe you personally do well from free market but you should understand the majority dont.

You are paid your discounted marginal value product. If your marginal value product, what you produce, is worth $1000, and the pure interest rate is 5%, you'll get $952. If someone is offering less, go to another employer. All that is in the unhampered free market. Once the government intervenes, you get much less, because of taxes. But then you have to blame the government, not employers.

Employees get their discounted marginal value product in the unhampered market. If governments intervene, they get less (or become unemployment), because of taxes.
dont want government intervention obama bullshit welfare spending i want a revolution that kills or exiles the shareholder and landowner who takes most of what i produce.

That's false. You are paid just a bit less than what you produce. If that's not true is because of government interventionism.
wal mart last year 28 billion profit divide that between all their workers the ones who actually created the wealth and its an extra 12k per person. i said landowners as well so remember to give everyone back that much of their rents not needed for property maintenance and repairs. we just increased everyones wages by 75-100% with only the profiteer and landlord losing out

workers on low wages dont pay very much income tax, tax and government is only important to millionaire libertarian who wants to be allowed hold onto more of the wealth he took from workers

Yup UN, my mistake thx. I assert that it was not required not because of labour mobility, which was a non issue, but it became an issue with the introduction of a personal income tax which began at the same time.

As you start to tax the production of people, milk the cows, you need a way to fence them in and make sure people don't steal your cows. So you brand them with citizenship and fence them with control of the flow of labour.

Wow! You want to kill the wealthy? What the fuck?! A libertarian by definition can not take anything from anyone mate. Everything he has is freely traded.

Oh, the revolution you want is called a communist revolution.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
Wherever you find convenient. You are free.
the ability to pick between between 2 employers who both offer the same thing or have nothing isnt freedom

before you answer learn a skill and find better paying job realise someone else must then fill original workers place in the low pay job and nothing is changed. maybe you personally do well from free market but you should understand the majority dont.

You are paid your discounted marginal value product. If your marginal value product, what you produce, is worth $1000, and the pure interest rate is 5%, you'll get $952. If someone is offering less, go to another employer. All that is in the unhampered free market. Once the government intervenes, you get much less, because of taxes. But then you have to blame the government, not employers.

Employees get their discounted marginal value product in the unhampered market. If governments intervene, they get less (or become unemployment), because of taxes.
dont want government intervention obama bullshit welfare spending i want a revolution that kills or exiles the shareholder and landowner who takes most of what i produce.

That's false. You are paid just a bit less than what you produce. If that's not true is because of government interventionism.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

The cap on visas is a way the US keeps foreign workers out. All this talk about free trade is a farce. In a true globalized economy, there should be unrestricted movement of labour as well as capital.
Countries have always restricted the movement of labor and will continue to do so. This is how countries can protect themselves from a defacto invasion

That's false. Wasn't enacted in the UK in any serious manner until 1914. Previously, if I wanted to freely work anywhere in the world, I could.

It was a NATO resolution that makes it illegal in international law to be without state (ie to hold no passport) in the 20th century.

A passport is a proof of 'citizenship' and it is a cattle brand to prove which government owns you, it is a choker collar around your neck.


hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1001
https://keybase.io/masterp FREE Escrow Service
You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

The cap on visas is a way the US keeps foreign workers out. All this talk about free trade is a farce. In a true globalized economy, there should be unrestricted movement of labour as well as capital.
Countries have always restricted the movement of labor and will continue to do so. This is how countries can protect themselves from a defacto invasion
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Can you specifically name at least one or two of those countries?
india most of africa most of latin america

inb4 but they arent really following true capitalism,the ron paul types are as bad as trotsky supporter

India isnt poor its a BRIC.  You might be thinking of Bangladesh or Pakistan

BRIC is a marketing jargon for the wall street to sell all the ipo garbage originated from these countries.

You need to visit those countries to really know the level of development they are in. Basic infrastructure such as water, electricity and sewage. If they don't have these basic services running without downtime, how develop do you think the country is?
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1064
You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

The cap on visas is a way the US keeps foreign workers out. All this talk about free trade is a farce. In a true globalized economy, there should be unrestricted movement of labour as well as capital.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
leave and go where?

Wherever you find convenient. You are free.

no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capitalist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Employees get their discounted marginal value product in the unhampered market. If governments intervene, they get less (or become unemployment), because of taxes.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
FRB is useless if no one has the need to borrow money, which is the case now. Banks must create super temptation for people to borrow money, like owning a house
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
What's wrong with capitalism? Capitalism means voluntary exchange, and therefore exchanges were every part considers that is winning.
i used to get an hour's paid lunch break and double time for working on sundays, now i don't. if i complain my employer will replace me with a third world immigrant. there is nothing voluntary about work for whatever pay and conditions the employer decides or starve to death.


You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
Time is on our side, yes it is!
Can you specifically name at least one or two of those countries?
india most of africa most of latin america

inb4 but they arent really following true capitalism,the ron paul types are as bad as trotsky supporter
The reason these countries are generally poor and their citizens have a low standard of living is because of the fact that these countries do not have any national resources or goods they can export to other countries. This means they are unable to receive money that can be used to purchase things from abroad. It doesn't have anything to do with capitalism.

Are you saying they don't have natural resources?  Because I think that is just a silly statement and I'd love to see some evidence that would back that statement out.  I think what you mean is they don't have the means to know or extract the resources they have, yes?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Can you specifically name at least one or two of those countries?
india most of africa most of latin america

inb4 but they arent really following true capitalism,the ron paul types are as bad as trotsky supporter

India isnt poor its a BRIC.  You might be thinking of Bangladesh or Pakistan
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Can you specifically name at least one or two of those countries?
india most of africa most of latin america

inb4 but they arent really following true capitalism,the ron paul types are as bad as trotsky supporter
The reason these countries are generally poor and their citizens have a low standard of living is because of the fact that these countries do not have any national resources or goods they can export to other countries. This means they are unable to receive money that can be used to purchase things from abroad. It doesn't have anything to do with capitalism.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
Well, the third world immigrant was destined for life long poverty if not for capitalism. So you definitely can't say that everybody is worse off. Smiley
only problem with that is most thirld world countries are also capitalist

Can you specifically name at least one or two of those countries?
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).



This is so true:
I had teachers in high school who blamed "free market excess" for issues in the early 20th century, but America definitely didn't have free markets then, it was dominated by powerful industrialists who used the Gov't to dramatically increase their wealth and power.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1064
What's wrong with capitalism? Capitalism means voluntary exchange, and therefore exchanges were every part considers that is winning.
i used to get an hour's paid lunch break and double time for working on sundays, now i don't. if i complain my employer will replace me with a third world immigrant. there is nothing voluntary about work for whatever pay and conditions the employer decides or starve to death.


Well, the third world immigrant was destined for life long poverty if not for capitalism. So you definitely can't say that everybody is worse off. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).


Capitalism or Communism I see both things have their own good and flaws as well.Either way sabotages common people at the end

What's wrong with capitalism? Capitalism means voluntary exchange, and therefore exchanges were every part considers that is winning.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Capitalism = have money and create more money out of said money easily. If poor, you are fucked unless genius.
This is not true. Capitalism will reward people for working hard and coming up with ideas to make money, and implementing those ideas. If you have a lot of money and piss it away, you will not be able to make more money out of nothing.
member
Activity: 111
Merit: 10
I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).


Capitalism or Communism I see both things have their own good and flaws as well.Either way sabotages common people at the end
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
Capitalism = have money and create more money out of said money easily. If poor, you are fucked unless genius.

To make more money you need to make good investments and risk what you have previously have gained by selling goods and services. Just take a look at an old Forbes list, and you'll see you don't even know many of those that appear.
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
Capitalism = have money and create more money out of said money easily. If poor, you are fucked unless genius.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
I live in the Puna area of Hawaii where a lot of people rail about how bad capitalism is. Yet none of these people that are against capitalism seem to understand any of the funadamentals of capitalism. They all have capitalism mixed up with corporatism, socialism, fascism, ect.

At a minimum, capitalism requires:

1) Strong Property Rights

2) Sound Money

Bitcoin will help with both of these. As an asset, it is a form of property that can be easily hidden. You can now accumulate wealth without the fear of garnishments or government confiscation. As money, it won't keep losing it's value over the years.

Bitcoin will form a new foundation for capitalism.

An highly insightful elaboration into the benefits of capitalism and its correlation to bitcoin. In addition, the major problems hindering the functions of a capitalist economy is greed,self center natures,and the desire for power forever by the rich and mighty in countries where capitalism reigns.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Capitalism and socialism are both huge red herrings. It is important to note that many, such as the above poster, have no idea what socialism is, considering that they think "corporate bailouts" = "socialism." Roll Eyes

It's socialism in the sense that there's a distribution of resources, from those that are productive and made good decisions to those that made mistakes.

Bail-ins are a distribution of resources from taxpayers to shareholders and bondholders.
Socialism would be for the state to take over the failed companies.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
Capitalism and socialism are both huge red herrings. It is important to note that many, such as the above poster, have no idea what socialism is, considering that they think "corporate bailouts" = "socialism." Roll Eyes

It's socialism in the sense that there's a distribution of resources, from those that are productive and made good decisions to those that made mistakes.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
People sometimes confuse 'crony capitalism' with capitalism.
Corruption and crony capitalism are to be blamed for a lot of problems in the developing world.
hero member
Activity: 528
Merit: 527
I live in the Puna area of Hawaii where a lot of people rail about how bad capitalism is. Yet none of these people that are against capitalism seem to understand any of the funadamentals of capitalism. They all have capitalism mixed up with corporatism, socialism, fascism, ect.

At a minimum, capitalism requires:

1) Strong Property Rights

2) Sound Money

Bitcoin will help with both of these. As an asset, it is a form of property that can be easily hidden. You can now accumulate wealth without the fear of garnishments or government confiscation. As money, it won't keep losing it's value over the years.

Bitcoin will form a new foundation for capitalism.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Capitalism and socialism are both huge red herrings. It is important to note that many, such as the above poster, have no idea what socialism is, considering that they think "corporate bailouts" = "socialism." Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
Capitalism is just one system among many for society to organize itself. The people have chosen the system.

The bailout of cooperate America has nothing to do with capitalism. It is socialism at work.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
 Today, capitalism is blamed for our current disastrous economic and financial situation and a history of incessant booms and busts. Support for capitalism is eroding worldwide. In a recent global poll, 25 percent (up 2 percent from 2009) of respondents viewed free enterprise as “fatally flawed and needs to be replaced.” The number of Spaniards who hold this view increased from 29 percent in 2009 to 42 percent, the highest amongst those polled. In Indonesia, the percentage went from 17 percent to 32 percent.

Most, if not all, booms and busts originate with excess credit creation from the financial sector. These respondents, incorrectly, assume that this financial system structured on fractural reserve banking is an integral part of capitalism. It isn’t. It is fraud and a violation of property rights, and should be treated as such....
http://mises.org/daily/6834/Confusing-Capitalism-with-Fractional-Reserve-Banking

Do you think "capitalism" is to blame for many of the world's problems?
Do you know what real Capitalism is?
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