Yesterday,The article[News]WHY AGAINST SEGWIT AND CORE? Mining investor gives his answer caused a lot debates here. For the further communication between China and west, I’ll conclude some informations about the article, then translate some of the Chinese comments & opinions on this article.
BItKan just here to offer an exchange of information. We are not Jiang Zhuo'er or in any way associated with him.
Here is the original article(Chinese Version):
https://bitkan.com/news/topic/25747 Here is the original article(English Version):
https://bitkan.com/news/topic/25778Here is the discussion on Bitcointalk
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/newswhy-against-segwit-and-core-mining-investor-gives-his-answer-1690612Let’s see what Chinese comments under the article (post on BitKan Chinese news page):
Against独行
If the writer does not want to see him nailed up on the pillar of humiliation, go learn some economics, plow through Satoshi’s whitepaper again esp. the economic logics in it. Also the writer needs to learn coding so as to avoid a mentality of a liberal art student. TBH your article is getting dramatic. 1. 1) Core never said the block size will stay at 1 MB, SegWit is a robust strategy at this moment. 2. 2) Your so-called HK consensus is nothing but a paper with seals from a few pools, a one-sided opinion. It’s not consensus. 3. 3) What an interesting conspiracy theory, you sound like the rest of the world is against China. How sick is that? Bitcoin has no national boundaries.
lxq990061
Back in 1840 in San Francisco, miners got rich with gold. But many more joined the game later on and with more ppl leaving the west empty-handed. How tragic. This is history, just like the one happening with Bitcoin. It was the pubs and inns opened near the gold mines earned real money: like the platforms today. Devs at Core are just like the merchants back in the day sipping their tea and trash-talking. But Core is indeed stupid: an 8-year long decentralized system requires support from a 95%? Some serious shit in their head.
讨厌装逼犯
You guys trash talk everyday non-stop...be quiet! This kind of argument cannot convince anyone. Harsh words+personall attacks just make it more chaotic. Politics...parties...freedom...conspiracy: disgusting. And this kind of article? Who you can convince? This is not the day 1 of the debate. True decision makers already have it in their mind. You ordinary ppl can change nothing even if you are convinced. My guess is whoever writes this kind of story must be someone who enjoys being worshiped by ppl on top of the ranks of “revolution”. You just like to quench your own thirst for fame. Worst case has nothing to do with tech, it’s a match for computation power, capital and strength. System set that C.power decides so let it be. Bitcoin will take on its due course no matter what. The disgusting part is the incitation, the manipulation of ppl’s emotions, and cap everything “a matter of revolution”. We Chinese ppl know this too well. Scaling is no longer about tech, but winning. Is it meaningful? The shame is not with the devs, they (inl. Core and BU) contributed their wisdom and labor. The real shame is with you talkers who humiliate ppl. You are so good, why not show me your money? Bitcoin is a merely 10B system, go buy it. If you cannot, just don’t trash talk.
idgui.com
1) lots of companies and apps are waiting for segwit, and OP is not against segwit, then
https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_adoption/ why not implement it in the easiest way? SF is quite close , as long as enough miners support. HF egwit delivers community splitting risks. 2) LN can be decentralized enough should there be enough LN nodes. It won’t be concentrated on a handful of nodes. We can implement some limits on the main chain if we see an inclination toward centralization, such as higher tx fee for big nodes to limit big centralized LN node. 3) Main chain tx fee won’t be ridiculously high. If it does, miners get RICH, no? now we have 4% in tx fee, raise by 25 times you get more reward from it than the block reward. Then it’s acceptable even now, let alone future. Big amount tx are few. Small amount can be offchain, on LN or on sidechains. 4) SegWit has been thoroughly tests, and it’s a SF, compatible to previous nodes. There won’t be a major issue. Any code has risks, can you call BU risk-free? It depends on the level of risk. Segwit SF is acceptable, at most rolling back to 0.13.0, and segwit can increase little by little, not a sudden change. BU’s HF is different, with risks of splitting the entire ecosystem. 5) Miners have freedom of voting, but do consider the interests at large. You must represent the interests of the entire ecosystem, at least try to. We need decentralized nodes and unified ecosystem. SF segwit needs to be activated under consensus, and we can wait. HF needs even greater consensus or we risk losing it all. If we cannot have enough consensus for either HF or SF segwit, then we should let the SF segwit happen, since it has no risks of destruction.
Maybe I wrote it in bad order, let me edit it in the future. Don’t jump to conclusion OP. Segwit should be activated in the future.
Supportgjw
Core knows nothing about the spirit of contract. They ignore their public ann. a few months ago. A direct scaling is the simplest and most effective way of solving our urgent problem. Why roll out this thing that requires long-time testing? To have a worldwide success for Bitcoin, you need to provide ppl with access at low costs. It’s just like Internet. Core either has a vicious intention or has no faith in Bitcoin. If one day Bitcoin is being used by 9 digits of ppl, the main chain block size cannot be enough even at 100 MB. Micro payment still needs to go through something like LN. What’s the meaning of keeping the block size at 1MB? 7 years ago the block size was set at 1MB, what’s the hardware like 7 years ago? What the growth of bandwidth and storage in 7 years? 10 years or 20 years from now? The main battlefield of Bitcoin is in China. We Chinese ppl should not be satisfied with mining a few coins or gamble on a few exchanges. Take the responsibility and obligation of contribution. But, words are so much cheaper than codes. We need advanced devs for the main battlefield.
changyong
I appreciate Jiang Zhuo’er’s main points, they coincide with my opinions on the Chengdu blockchain conference: 1. scaling, segwit and LN should all be implemented. 2.it is highly wrong to make the main chain a settlement network 3. LN and the main chain are for different purposes and should not be inter-placeable. 4. main chain jam is driving towards LN Matthew Effect and monopolies. 5. miner decision is most rational and trust-worthy 6. tech and propaganda monopolies are endangering the whole system 7. SF increases long-term systemic debt and risks
A supplementary 8 points 1. blocksize cannot meet with the market demand for a long time---this is no less significant of a tech loophole. So a HF is a worthy action. 2. HF is an important instrument for Bitcoin to metabolize. Demonizing HF is suicidal. 3. The lack of incentives for devs and the centralization of tech are the paramount systemic risks at this moment 4. BU is a good start for competition, which will eliminate tech centralization. 5. HF scaling will not change the current landscape of profits and power, turning the main chain into a settlement network will. The latter carries great risks of Bitcoin failure. 6. Demonizing HF is a coverup for the changes and risks associated with the settlement network roadmap. 7. Democracy of Bitcoin requires ration, not loyalty and passion from the Bitcoiners, else, we are en route dictatorship. 8. For the sake of the wealth and energy you put into this, plz resort to reason, not blind worshipping and personal attacks.
myx
If you can compete with confidence, do compete under the same level of consensus. Bitcoin is the flapship of cryptos. An easy HF and an influential forked chain in the aftermath can be catastrophic. Miners can benefit in the short run after the spilitting. But in the long run, we all lose. A lowered threshold in anticipation of an easier fork is much worse than staying put. Based on Boss Jiang’s statement, 95% consensus can produce a 5% forked chain...then there will always be minority miners forking. In the end, the recognition of Bitcoin comes from users. Self-important forks by some miners are nothing but Alts. We have enough alts, no? So, 95%+ consensus is the only way to maintain unification. A coin without support from most of the users is an alt! Miners do get to decide, but the ultimate right is with the users’ recognition! If a 95%+ consensus is with a solution, then the rest minority do not matter. So, a solution without a high degree of consensus in a way is splitting the ecosystem. If BU dares not to bring up a 95% threshold, and in your own words, if a 51% HF is enough for a HF...you will end up splitting the ecosystem! Boss Jiang is a miner, and he feels he’s investing bigly, and he gets to decide. But in fact you are just for profit, not some Samaritan. Miners are just making profits on the most-recognized coin. Nothing to do with ethics. But a fair competition, by your own words, must be on the same criteria. Just like the 270 electoral votes in US presidential election. A common threshold. So, if BU wants to compete with segwit, do so under the same level of consensus. Any solution under a 95% consensus is just trolling for your own cowardice!
indexindex
The scaling debate involves 1)scaling for Bitcoin’s future and 2)breaking dev monopoly. Dev is the easiest part to control than hashing powers and users, literally the weakest part in the decentralization course of Bitcon. Spend 7 or 8 digits of USD on core devs, then you can control a multi-billion level product...that’s a good bargin for numerous capitals. Devs must realize that they can be abandoned should they do harm to Bitcoin in exchange of their own interests. Not just Core, but every dev team should understand this. BS’ investment must go burn, so as to make it a good example for future players.
OthersTips: ID name “sfire” is the writer Jiang Zhuoer.
bikanyong to sfire
Hi Jiang I got 2 questions for you: 1. 1) apart from using high tx fee to chase tx to the LN, what’s the highlight of LN per se that draws tx? 2. 2) You mentioned LN will become a giant-dominated market based on Matthew Effect. Is our main chain facing the same risks?
sfire to bikanyong
Yes. LN is a secondary network with no need to broadcast network-wide. So LN has more frequent tx than the main chain. Small amount fast payment can be allowed. There is a price for not broadcasting network-wide: serious centralization risks (as seen in the article). So it can only be used for auxiliary purposes, but not as a foundation. The main chain is free from this risk becoz all miners on the main chain are equal. Gov may shut down 99% of the miners while the remaining 1% could still be handling tx. LN differentiates nodes with big ones and small ones. In the end, the big ones may end up huge and be banned by the gov. With the remaining allowed un-compliant small nodes, you cannot (very possibly) find a route of transfer in the LN, causing you failures in transfers.
bikanyongto sfire
You mean: Nodes on the main chain are equal, while in the LN, big nodes are more powerful than the small ones. Or put it another way: the nodes on the current main chain are inter-dependent, while they could get competitive against each other on the LN.---is it ok to put it like this?
sfire to bikanyong
It’s not that big nodes on the LN have more power, but connects more users. E.g. many ppl may, for the sake of their rate and service, connect to a giant “Coin-Pay or Coin-Pal” kind of node. If they want to transfer to users on another node called “Coin-Wechat”, they have to go through a route provided by “Coin-Pal”. Then, the giant node “Coin-Pal” bans you, leaving you in de facto ban from transfers to most ppl on the LN.
kok99999 to bikanyong
LN changes the topology of the network, and changes the whole game.
独行
Just becoz you need to enlarge the userbase, you need to scale up? It’s hilarious. The transfer of tx requires cost. No matter how wide is the highway, you don’t charge ppl, you will have a heave traffic. Via the market’s hand, only big amount tx are allowed on the chain---this does not affect the liquidity of onchain assets.
sfire to 独行
You can go offer some advice to the gov and ask them not to build up our infrastructure, since it’s so costy. Just charge ppl money, how convenient is that? Only luxury cars are allowed on the road....this does not affect the vitality of the city.
wz to 独行
What you are saying is not market’s hand. Leaving ppl with no choice is a market behavior? Free competition is the market’s hand.
无名 to 独行
No hard facts other than trashing ppl...no reasoning...these resemble your Core masters.
BTC专业工
I just wanna say: Hail to Multi-Party system! One-Party Dictatorship is doomed.
mellowtone
Support miners, support PoW and computational-power-consensus is the real consensus.
pyjx306
If tx fee goes up, I will quit.
savage
Since Core is so determined to castrate the main chain and revolution miners out, why did they set the 95% threshold? Core has no computation power, and they are so confident that miners will load their heads with enough shit and support Core?
sfire
It’s just a routine to set the 95% threshold for SF. If Core does not use the figure, the anti-Core voice will only grow, furthering their success rate down.
amo1998
95% could be of more complicated reasons. I think BS should have taken into consideration that they control at least 5% of the C.power. (S pool and BTCC pool). If I were BS, I’d have a contingency plan for worst-case scenario. Even 95% means we fail, we BS will not allow for a HF. We can also bash you from a moral high ground and accuse the onchain scailing side.
caitong
I cannot tell which one is better, HF first or SegWit first...both seemed to be practical and dangerous. But both sides have their own political agenda---that’s for sure. We avg. Joes prefer that, no matter what solution taken or risks what come along, just march on. We cannot stay here and die.
wz
No development=you will be taken by someone else. The network jam is significantly hindering its future. SegWit and LN cannot be replacements for a HF, Core knows that, but they still want to use them to replace a HF solution. Bitcoin is not the only cryptocurrency out there. No user, no value.
yangzi666
Still, no matter what solution, if we have 2 chains and 2 Bitcoins, there will be chaos esp. for newbies. Miners and exchanges will take side and cause even greater chaos. Attention ppl: those were bashing Bitcoin with short positions all day long are now also in favor of THAT solution! Newton had it: I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people! HF is not a good solution at this moment. No matter which one, there must be no risk of forking into 2 chains---that qualifies an option on the table.
wz
SegWit and LN are not the replacement of a HF. Core has their own interests. You ostrich ppl just keep your heads in the sand, the risks won’t go away.
yangzi666 reply wz
1)I am no osrich. I will not be speaking here if I had my head in the sand, esp. at the risks of your bashings. 2)I oppose the risks of Bitcoin forking into 2 coins: you need to live longer to have the experience of humanity. 3)Seriously suggest you guys use some mild words, don’t be so dramatic. Just get your opinions clear no matter what you are proposing. Don’t just attack other ppl and their solutions. And plz don’t use harsh words. I believe we miners have wisdom. Given time, just wait and see the chart.
睿思通-专注比特币交易平台开发
Only miners, who invested millions-worth of personal wealth, the sunk cost, cannot leave like a bitcoiner, thus can be qualified as the Bitcoin’s safe guards.
nodouble
Scaling is what all users want. We just have different opinions on the solution we choose. It’s hard to judge Core’s manipulation, but they do oppose a simple direct scaling. They broke the deal with pools and manipulated the public opinion. You do see these as facts. You know about IT and finance, and probably with your butt on finance. You earn monopoly profits that others cannot touch. Bitcoin is the genius, the genesis of this sick market. Core’s segwit and LN are in fact copying financial sector’s monopoly nature to Bitcoin, and with an overly engineered tech threshold to solidify the position of interest groups like Blockstream. The scaling of the main chain, a market that naturally embraces users, will bring the disillusionment of LN, a market naturally forcing users. The conflict of opinions is in fact the fight of power of at a certain level. For Bitcoin, it’s Satoshi’s brilliant design and judgment that has it: we let the miners decide. This is also most reasonable in reality. Like you said, should we realize it, we are all happy.
idgui.com
1) I’m pro segwit and LN, segwit solves a lot of historical problems and improves efficiency; LN provides greater room for timely confirmations and high frequency tx. [reply] good, welcome for your choice on segwit+LN. It’s good improvement for the development of the ecosystem. Segwit has a good structure for app developments. LN can realized second-level confirmation and low tx fee that everyone wants.
2) Miners being trust-worthy don’t mean all miners can tell the future. Miners are trust-worthy because they see profits. They analyze the interests of all parties. Their behavioral pattern is predictable. [reply] There are short-term interests and long-term interests. Not all miners are limited to those before their eyes or those in their dreams. Only when interests short-term and long-term are consistent can they be predicted. But you cannot do that now. Also, different miners have different standards of judgement.
3) ETH HFed many times, not produced a forked chain only once, why? Because this very HF violates the basic principle of cryptocurrency: immutability of blockchain. That’s why ppl reject ETH and would welcome ETC. Then you have trades and markets and price and miners. Previously loyal miners can turn. That’s why I say Chandler’s statement was irrational. Just don’t talk about loyalty and friendship when it comes to cryptos, just talk about interests. [reply] There’re active and forced HFs. We had one in our history. Along with the later HFs of ETH, they are all bug-fixes that serves only good. But the in the ETH/ETC case, the HF was to find the stolen coins, not for a bug fix: an active HF. Active HF has great potential for splitting the ecosystem, and forced ones are safe. HF scaling is apparently an active HF. Blocksize limit is not an imperative bug fix target; and HF scaling is not necessarily good for everyone, at least it raise the bar to run a full node.
4) Landscape of interests: I’m saying the interests and decision-making patterns of all parties in the system (miners, corps, users, investors, devs) stay the same, not that all interests should remain the same. HF scaling produces no change to the original running mechanism, so the landscape does not change. Even if ETH forked into 2, their interests are in the same old landscape and an Alt relationship between each other. [reply] You are not aware of the dangers and harms of a split ecosystem. You should read some other articles first. A split is not just about simply see another Alt, it’s overwhelming.
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