Topic: Contracts or PPS payouts greater than 100% may be pool hopping with your hashes! (Read 6049 times)

Thanks for the props, MartyChubbs, and sorry I didn't see this sooner. There are still a bunch of hoppable pools and I posted a recent summary here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.908954

Enjoy!

Why not share here ? Thanks !

That sounds a bit bogus to me. I think hes doing something a little more realistic, I don't want to publicize my theory on here though.

Don't think hes said what hes doing.

All the pools paying over 100% pps have made it clear they hop. I don't see the problem. Anyone using a prop pool deserves what they got coming.

A month later and you see what played out.  The scam pool is gone and others are more explicit with what they do with hashes. Which is good, cause we didn't stop anyone, just brought awareness to miners so they could make a more informed decision and ask questions.  Also, Big Thanks to the ops who were and still are honest  and organ for taking it a step further (cause he's super mathematics man!)

Help him out and compensate for his work @ Neighbourhood Pool Watch donations: 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r

I hope more have leaned about p2pool and the freedom from pool ops, however, Graet & Inaba are trustworthy ops with perfect reputations. So all the ops I mine with are cool.  Plus, Oz, EMC, BP all have low stales and are very stable. So, I have not a need to look outside those pools and I haven't figured out how to compare P2P against my favorite DGM and PPS pools.  Meni explained that PPLNS is a good backup, too.  

  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a1bitcoinpool-64188  Busted!

mining charity is a hopping strategy...so someone has to find the block...impatience and risk adverse miners switch or stay with PPNLS....

There is risk in hopping and your are then compensated with a higher return, economics....

nah, talking based on experience awhile back. Haven't been back to the IRC for a bit.

we do mine for profit, and hops all over the place, but when a pool we normally hop is having a bad luck for long blocks and the pool op asked for help, some of the hoppers will stay for the long block.
It's a mutual relationship. if the is pool stuck on a long block, hoppers will get less income, so the incentive to help is there, providing that you are not really helpless, like only left with 5-10 gh/s after being hopped. if that's the case, goodluck solving your blocks, lol.

sure, keep telling everyone it's FUD.
ask mtred if we did that or not.

Say what?

With PPLNS, when you put in a share the chance for good or bad payout is the same every time. Regardless of if the pool is on a long block. Therefore the incentive to mine is always the same. ("I will pay you $0-100 per hour for your work")

With proportional, if the pool is in the middle of a long block then you know in advance you will get lousy pay for your shares. That is when you have no incentive to mine. When you know in advance the pay will be bad. ("I will pay you $1 per hour for your work")

And no, hoppers don't stay for long rounds. Hoppers maximize their profits by not staying for long rounds. The ones who do stay for long rounds are the people giving away their money to hoppers.

If you are a hopper, fine. But please don't spread lies on the forum. Don't believe the FUD, guys, let the proportional payment system die a natural death.

That's right, and bye bye every other pool    I hop, I'm not ashamed in the slightest to admit it, because it's the smart thing to do.  We're all in this for the money (yes, and to see Bitcoin succeed, that goes without saying), so of course I'm going to maximise my profits.  I think you're daft if you don't.

However, when all the prop pools change to another payout method, I certainly won't be sticking around, I'll be moving to a p2p type pool.   "Proper" pools lose either way I guess.    I imagine eventually it'll be p2p only, and every other pool will slowly die.

Joules - I felt like a dbag more when all the anti-hoppers started jumping on the bandwagon.  Really, I had a problem with proxies offering >100% PPS returns and Prop pools switching to PPS to finish a block.  Proxies don't mine blocks and thus  are not following the PPS payout method and thus not PPS.  So, fair-payment (for the miners) advocates who crap all over prop pools might be purchasing a contract and complaining about the hopping on prop pools that they may unknowingly be contributing to...  I have a problem with corruption and not capitalism...misleading information on where the hashes go was to me unethical...  I am all for hopping and I have fun working on bH while learning python.  Truth is I think http://btcproxy.net is awesome and the contract stuff is a great idea, but felt some pool ops are putting up a PPS or Prop front-end and proxy back-end and it will leave miners in the dark about what is going on...  In fact, i just guessed and used the bitclockers crash circumstantial evidence that clipse and goat  are hopping with miners hashes.  I was trying to prove to the PPS miners that they are hypocrites for joining a, yet to be proved, hopping proxy...

So, I didn't believe clipse business plan to guarantee 115%, hopping only made sense so I accused him of operating a proxy for the 115%, he says no and his miners are satisfied with the answer...if they even cared.  Honesty is a value of mine and I though we were being mislead about PPS, again, I must have been wrong

Goat also felt some may be mislead and he set the record straight.  I hope he uses bH

GPUMAX was outed by me in error, goat corrected me and I feel stupid

A1 is trying to find a block and is trying to keep a hash rate, but if the pool payout is what it is supposed to be and he pays out his contracts, then we're all good.  I am worried that current hash rate is not going to find a block while watering my hashes down in the process. Pool ops correct me if I am wrong on that.  Also, I did some work to help miners control when and how they mine at TNTmining and A1 and if pool jacks its miners again, i will feel like a dummy...I was a bitcoin7 member.

The line about killing prop pools was to make the anti-hoppers feel guilty.  I agree, if the pool can be hopped...hop it.  So, I hope I explained enough to you to see I was just trying to bust a secret and not disparage hopping, however, I used my hopping experiences to add weight my accusations.  

Still have a chip on my shoulder about what Eligius did with hashes, I was arguing with Pedro on bitlc's payment change thread and lost my cool, then bitclocker went down, I became pissed off with a cause.  

Beef, we cool?

but but but marty... YOU ARE A HOPPER DEVELOPER!!!
I see you working on the hopper programs.. so what the fuck gives?

Shiver me timbers Pirate, You so nasty...  Arghhh!

Listen Captain Feather-Sword, keep up the good work!  I will beat myself with my own hose...

Avast, ya scurvy varmints!

No worries just another member spread FUD around.  I would beat you with a rubber hose if I had one.

I just was being suspicious and threw it out there, cause they were posting on the Clockers thread same time I was...so I blamed them...  Not 100%, more like 3%.  How would I know it was not my 2GHs?

Again, my point was to let the PPS guys, looking for more that 100%, that they are in fact hopping...  So, yes...I was a Dick...and No, I did not know who was responsible for the huge swings. I was just trying to get the PPS advocates to realize they were destroying pools (their view) and were conveniently looking the other way.  I was trying to add weight to my argument and hopefully someone would crack...I don't care...hop on 120%'ers

Anyone making more than 125%?  I must suck at hopping...and I am a jerk ;0

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.739375

Sorry, GPUMAX, Goat is right.

I really don't see the issue here, as long as people are open about it.  There are many things pools ops can do to detect and prevent hopping, and there are many things a miner can do to not lose earnings to hoppers.  None of this is a secret, there are many threads on all of this. 

Switch to a NOT hoppable pool

Switch to p2pool

problem solved, byebye hoppers 

pft, prop pools are still gonna be here. i never mined on a dgm/pplns pools...and no plans to in the immediate future.

as long as the pool owner ask for the hoppers to help, some will help.


imagine pplns pool asking help from hopper.

maybe you did, but its rare-  maybe if there isn't a good pool to hop to at that moment.
also there are less and less prop. pools so maybe to save a small pool they would.

solving long blocks?
yeah, good luck with that.

at least with prop, some hoppers will stay for the long rounds to get the pool outta the shit. i know i did that couple of times on mtred and bitclockers during blocks of hell.
PPLNS? no incentive to do so.

If pool ops cared, why would they not implement one of the hop-proof pay schemes like PPLNS or DGM?

if not, why should they do that?

the difference is pretty significant with high hashing power.

Really? Is that profitable?

*enters stage right, does a little dance and stumbles off the stage.

Lol

I didn't question anything about them having interests in the uptime or performance of the pool(s).  I said...how can he be 100% positive that "huge swings" in hashrate are the reason the server "broke"...based only off 2 forum users posting about a pool being down...and that THEY were the cause of that.

Note:  The two people posting are two of the people running poolhop proxies.  It certainly is interesting that someone who is running a "pool" is keeping such a close eye on other pools performance.

So...you're taking 2 posts by users on the forum about a pool being down as a 100% confirmation that they broke the server ? LOL

 https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/250ghs-bitclockerscom-mergedno-invalidspure-ppsddos-resistantlive-stats-10127

And they lie about doing it... Its like the government and the debt

How can you confirm 100% that bitclockers was "broke" by heavy swings ?

Other than deepbit, there is not a single proportional pool that is even running at 300 GH/s of dedicated miners anymore.  That means they can't afford (especially if they're 0%) decent servers without simply losing money.  These pool hopping "pools" then hop to them, putting massive stress on what hardware they have available, but only for short bursts, when its profitable to them.  This ends up hurting the performance of dedicated miners because those prop pools can't handle a sudden doubling (or more) of their hash rate and will start to have timeouts/increased stales.  This is on top of hurting the earnings of dedicated miners.

So, those pool ops are now slowly coming to terms with the fact that even though proportional is the most straightforward payment method (there is no backend special math/timing of share submissions involved), it simply isn't worth running.  The proportional payment system will be gone pretty soon because of this.

heavy swings on bitclocker broke the pool and bitlc is changing payout due to a 400 gh swing. Who else hops with that hash power?

How is hopping "killing prop pools" when it requires prop pools?

Stop lying, you are hopping with everyone hashes!  I thought I saw a few hopping on Bitclockers and trying on Bitlc.  Hopping at 125% and keeping the 5% to 10% spread is a good idea, but lying and killing prop pools is lame...

So, wake up miners, your self-righteous quest to make sure everyone is equal allows the some  to take advantage of you and make you think your are equal are in fact robbing you by using your hashes against your wishes...being used unequally ala prop pools <43.5%  I guess putting a layer between hopping and your emotion/inexperience makes it easier to sleep at night.  Just like Socialism, promising you something that is unsustainable...


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.738454