Topic: Could Argentines crash Bitcoin at the end of December because of a new tax? (Read 272 times)

It seems like maybe selling and buying back after the year comes in may be a wise decision for Argentinians. Still this really blows.

15% just for taxes? It is nothing compared to the huge marging of taxes that people from the united states have to pay.. came on people, it is nothing.
Just see how much money do people from the US & the UK have to pay in order to withdraw their earnings..
15% is dust compared to those.

Sounds more like a case for redistribution then a fall exactly.  In Argentina Bitcoin is a victim of its own success ?    The government produces a tax on its people by inflation, producing money centrally and running a budget deficit.     This is all grossly unfair, centralised money is depriving the many to serve the few who are close to government and derive political advantages.

No doubt that government is also against gold and any asset that might be used to hold or exchange value without going through a central system which 'leaks' money onto those in power.

No I dont think its a sell off because BTC is global and this is not a one off, many countries have this problem even US Dollar.    It seems another measure to try and make money illegal.

First of all this tax should be compared to the other Australian taxes. Maybe it is the least expensive way to pay taxes there. The other thing is that how they gona controll the profits from cryptocurrencies: they won't track the crypto nature of the money untill it came from the exchange. Also I'm very curious how they gona figure out the basis for the tax. Like If I bought bitcoin for 17k and sold it for 18k it is fine to get charged from the profit of 1k but not from the whole amount of sold BTC.

True, governments in third world countries do not have the strength to prosecute the real criminals like killers and kidnappers, so they can claim to be owed whatever amount of money they want that does not mean they are going to get it, so at the end this is another law that is not going to have an effect at all on bitcoin holders besides I do not think we are that far away to see the emergence of bitcoin tax havens.

This is far from happening and i do not think Argentines are as tech savvy as the likes of china a country we thought could crash the bitcoin market with the number of crypto supporters it has but never did.

Their tax system is going to affect crypto users there but how will they get everybody using bitcoin....their just trying to cause panic nothing else.

Yeah, we "contributing members" must also use clickbait techniques a bit to get attention

The difference I see with other countries that are also including cryptos in capital gains taxes is that, as I wrote, people that sell before December 31 won't be affected at all, and that the law will be passed in the next few days. So there is a very short timeframe (less than 2 weeks) where there could be a big incentive for many to sell the coins - at least temporarily, like @btcone111 has insinuated. Then at January 1, they could re-buy, or wait for lower prices.

I estimate Argentines hold about 100-300K Bitcoins, maybe more (it's only wild speculation, 'cause I know there are pretty many early adopters). That could influence the price a bit if at least half of them sell.


There is a possible indirect influence: if Argentine demand dwindles rapidly because of the new tax in the coming days/weeks, the people that sell normally Bitcoins to Argentines on LocalBitcoins could be incentived to sell their Bitcoins on other exchanges to hedge against a possible down move. And as I already wrote, I estimate that most major Argentine Bitcoin holders hold accounts on US/European exchanges, so they would sell there and re-buy in January (or later).

And a little note: It's well possible that several Argentine holders want to hide their Bitcoins completely from the government. But they get a lot of advantages if they "blank" their money - and otherwise they could get caught only because they've used a single exchange with mandatory KYC/AML. And as if they sell before December 31 they don't get charged at all for all the gains they have until the end of 2017, I think the incentive to sell is pretty large.

How can the government know the amount of BTC held by an individual? Do they store address information ? This being generated from BTC utilization within Argentina is possible, but I can't figure other way for the country to impose the tax.

No , not immediately. because if i were Argentinian, i would sell all my holding before it becomes effective then i immediately buy back the same amount 

I am not from Argentina but thank you for this information as we can see that  the world is now a global place and what ever affect bitcoin pricing affect my investment. The tax laws on bitcoin is definitely going to affect bitcoin price as Argentina is one of the most friendly bitcoin country and many bitcoin core lover are from that part of the world. We must live in our reality by accepting that governments are going to find they ways of making bitcoin income taxable.

It is a joke, Argentines and the real government behind this country is a JOKE.

They are not able to understand their own government (and i am talking about the politicians) They are just doing whatever they can in order to make money, and only for THEMSELVES.

They want to profit from everything, that is why they will allow people to "recognize" their bitcoins and then move them to their bank accounts, doesnt matter how much it is.

This will allow a lot of drug dealers and money launderers to launder their money. Do you think that it is fair?
They are doing this only for PROFIT purposes.

Something like this can not crash the Bitcoin itself,
because users itself did not solely come from Argentines but instead around the world.
even chinese who is well known as a leader in global economy can not do much to Bitcoin.
bitcoin is a discovery and it's not a trifling matter because its technology can change the world.
compared to other asset Bitcoin has a lot of value because its has its own usability.
even if the price goes down for more than a half from our current price,it will not change the fact that Bitcoin still has its use.
so crash will not happen and very unlikely to happen because it's still far from it.
it will only crash if we can not use it at all or the network is died.
other than that nobody can stop it at this moment

Well, capital gains taxes are everywhere in the world... People in my country, and pretty sure most 1st world and 2nd world countries will have to pay capital gains tax on their crypto holdings if they sell it for a profit.

This as i said shouldn't have an impact on the price as well.

It's only one country, implementing what the rest of the world has already implemented. No big news here, it's probably not going to affect anything related to bitcoin, especially for long term holders since they're not selling any time soon.

a great part of the Argentinian bitcoin volume comes from localbitcoins and it is one of the highest volumes but that never affects bitcoin price since it is more like off the market and over the counter trading instead of buy/sell on an exchange that is directly affecting the price.

additionally the volume from SatoshiTango, Ripio which are Argentinian is not that high to be able to cause any crash in my opinion.

this is the advantage of bitcoin, we can hide our income. in catalain avoiding the rules of taxation. even if we have an income of more than 3,500 usd / year. we can mensiasatinya neatly and without the know

No i dont think that the problem of the taxes in argentina just for holding and acquiring bitcoin make any difference from the market, the most affected ones would be from the local exchanges in argentina for giving their personal info to the company.

Even if there was a massive sell out big players would love to buy all those bitcoins in the market, if were to live in that country there are many ways for me to evade the new law the government is imposing.

It's not that big of a deal. I am more shocked about a contributing member to come up with such titles.

I'm from western Europe, and I too have to pay quite a similar tax percentage over my booked gains (if declared). I personally haven't declared anything, and I am definitely not planning to do so in the future.

If I was to declare tax, it would start counting at the first day of each year. This year it would mean that I declared Bitcoin at $1000, where if in January of 2018 the price stands at $20,000 for example, that would then be the amount for me to declare.

I and basically anyone here should have reason to cash out as well in order to avoid declaring tax at current rates, but that's not going to happen since people will keep their mouth shut. That's how it works here.

Well, there was at least one flash crash (5000 -> 3000) where many people made China's "ICO ban" responsible for.



No, it's a "capital gains" tax, not a cryptocurrency tax (I maybe was a bit imprecise in the OP), so holders of other assets are also affected.

That's what Mr. Macri wants you to think, yeah (Argentina wasn't left "in poverty", but there was much corruption and lots of bad decision making in the Kirchnerist government. But don't be naive, Macri is from the same breed.)
 
There is only one exchange, Ripio, and it doesn't have high volumes; there are also three or four fixed-rate shops and pretty much LocalBitcoins movement. But most Argentine Bitcoin whales got Bitcoin via mining (electricity was extremely cheap until 2015/16) and are holding them to cash out in US dollars or other currencies, so the ARS/BTC movement is probably a tiny fraction of the whole "Argentine volume".

But there are few full nodes (only 20) tracked by Bitnodes.

Yes, I also think it's not unreasonably high.

Does anyone honestly believe any South American country collects a fraction of the taxes it's actually owed? No one's going to pay this. Even in supposedly fully functioning economies like Italy tax evasion is the national sport.

Everyone from shaky economies is fully versed in hiding their money from the government. Crypto makes it a ton easier.

Governments think that people are just going to cooperate with them, they are trying to treat bitcoin as if it is a stock, but it is not, bitcoin is a currency, besides that assumes people are going to be dumb enough to tell their governments all the bitcoin they are holding, I cannot wait for the day some governments pass laws that says that all your bitcoin income is tax free, that country will become incredibly rich in just a few years.

Yeah corruption in Argentina is just dumb.
It's lastest president Cristina Fernandez left the Argentina in poverty, so now Mauricio Macri (It's current president) made this new law because many people is making profits over BTC in there.
I think it just sucks , bitcoin wasn't created by the mean of being centralized.

15% per year just for holding is a lot, but can their government find all holders? I'm curious how will they do it, there is so many ways to skip this tax paying. From moving bitcoins trough mixer, making multiple wallets to giving someone from other country to keep your coins( family, or close friends..).
When high fees can't do nothing to bitcoin nothing can. Argentinian government is just trying to find a way how to take more money from people there, like all governments! But can they do that easily like they can do with fiat we will see. I would try to skip paying this tax in some way, f. the governments and banks.

i'd be curious to know how much liquidity and trading volume argentines represent. i've been hearing about significant adoption there for years, so it's possible that such sell pressure could spill over into the global markets.

however, 15% per year is not unreasonable for capital gains taxes. if you have an income of up to ~$420,000 in the US, 15% is the long-term capital gains rate. short term capital gains can be much higher: up to 40%! compared to the united states, argentines don't have it that bad. so maybe there won't be much sell pressure after all.

What happened in China with that big community didn't affect the bitcoin. How do you expect Argentina cause the bitcoin to be crashed? It will never happen.

Is it bad? Absolutely. And they seem to be targeting explicitly cryptocurrency holders, it seems. It doesn't apply to gold or other assets, just cryptocurrencies. And 15% is a pretty high amount to pay, especially if you're just a small time trader barely making the 3.5k cutoff mark.

But it's not going to crash bitcoin, 100% no. If bitcoin crashes by the end of the year it's not because of this new rule in Argentina.

They may obviously hold some bitcoin as a nation but they are nothing compared to korea/china/japan/usa, etc. And when china banned exchanges the markets reacted with nothing. I doubt they'll be reacting any worse for this case.

In Argentina, a new tax is about to be approved that will charge profits for holding cryptocurrencies with 15% per year. (Source) This tax applies for everybody that made profits of more than approximately 3.500 USD per year, so everybody that held more than 0,25 BTC in 2017 would be affected.

This tax will be possible to be charged retroactively, but it will come into effect on January 1, 2018. So everybody that sells before that date, will not have to pay the tax for profits that have accumulated until that day.

Even if you don't believe it: Argentines are a significant Bitcoin holder group. A history of restrictive exchange regulations (the last "restrictive" phase lasting from 2011 to 2014/2015) made many people aware of cryptocurrencies. And at least one of the historical Core contributors is an Argentine.

So it's a pretty likely scenario that Argentine holders could move the price a bit. But maybe it's nothing to worry about: They could re-buy at January 1, so they get only charged for profits after that date.