Topic: Could we invalidate all regulations? (Read 3229 times)

Opposite. The big conglomerates would become weaker and smaller/go out of business if governments got weaker or smaller.

Governments together with big banks protect the big congomerates and basically feed an anti-competitive environment especially as regulations are introduced. The biggest and richest can easily comply with any such regulations and also can afford to pay for sponsoring to make more regulations  to stave off competition.

Traders who trade for cash are unable to accept bitcoins even if they wanted to. They are obliged to trade only in the national currency. Why not accept bitcoin online shops, I don't understand. It seems to me that it will be profitable for them, but they will lay in the cost of additional expenses and this may deter buyers because in bitcoin the price will be higher than Fiat. To be honest that buyers don't want to leave bitcoin because it is rising in price and they try to keep it in their wallets.

Well then the economy of a government fall down if it is without taxes. Because if all transaction would eventually go to bitcoin, then their will be no money for the government and it will go to businessmen or corporation. That would mean big conglemerate is getting richer while the government itself is just stuck. Unless the government would make services with bitcoin, then it is really hard for the economy to increase without taxes.

That would be ideal but you have to think about the government. It survives off of collecting taxes. it would disintegrate if everyone just only used bitcoin without any regulation

Bitcoin as a payment on these merchants will always be "fiat-dependent" . Do you think stores will accept bitcoin if the price is on it's lowest value? Will the customer pay bitcoin if the price is on it's highest? SIMPLY NO. We are far away from the scenario that you've given. Stable prices most come first with a little volatility on it and an acceptable regulatory policies.

Yes, with due time this will occur. Even though Bitcoin is incredibly strong, growing and established for 8 years....you gotta remember that its still not at 1% adoption of all people yet.

Once it hits around 1.5%, and then a few years later when it hits 3% global adoption, then that pretty much equals mainstream.

I'm not so sure about that. If merchants are using payment solutions to exchange instantly, then it's not really a big deal. Also, at that rate, then you've got a much higher velocity of money, which would put upwards pressure on the purchasing power of bitcoins. If anything, merchants would tend to hold what they didn't need for immediate liquidity and they'd welcome BTC purchases.

However, that's again predicated on enough merchants accepting it for it to be used much.

I think it's necessary that the bitcoin rate be more stable

In utopia it would work, but everyone has their own interests in mind including the government and us as well

Trust me it is harder than we thought, business sectors are mostly government dependent. Those owners won’t make any move when the government is not supporting this currency. They don’t want to penalise with this as they’re protecting they’re asssets and licenses that was provided to them.

Business and Government is always together on one goal and you can’t separte them both as it will never be.

Businesses doing high $ value transactions would be especially hesitant because of the potential for such massive loses if BTC goes down immediately after the transaction.

If all start accepting BTC then it would be so-called 'people's currency'. No need to depend on any govt. to issue a fiat currency for their currency. But I don't believe it will happen. Growing popularity of BTC has become a headache for central authorities as they don't have any control on it. If they approve it then only we could see this scenario of free BTC transaction for daily need stuff.

You have to understand that regulations are part of a civilized society. Regulations are bigger than any government or organization and without regulations, there will be anarchy.

In cryptocurrency, if you notice now, there are still people calling for regulations especially in terms ICO and if bitcoin splits this time, people might be asking for some sort of mechanism (regulation) to govern how changes to bitcoin happen (you cant have forks after each breaking change).

Although I personally believe that cryptocurrencies should be self-regulated by the community, we all know this will not happen as usually there is always a power centralization of some sort happening - eg. Bitcoin Core, Miners, Exchanges .... are essentially the authority in bitcoin.

What has happened here is that Governments and establishment dreamt of a cashless free society where their economic power would be absolute. No transaction would escape from their control. They were having a happy dream and that dream became a nightmare when bitcoin appeared.

Regulations will come, some already have, but users have ways of escaping from the system if they wish. Chip mixers have been mentioned here, Monero transactions are completely anonymous and more ways of anonymity will appear.

I don’t think that regulations are bad. I think prohibitions would be worse. In my view, digital future will be something like cash society nowadays: some people only do 100% legal transactions but some of them use cash to smuggle drugs or to make transactions without paying tax. Electricity sector is regulated but you can use fiat to pay electricity bills and to pay your electrician under the table, without a bill.

In our country, you can invalidate regulations provided it does not impair vested rights. That means, all those who relied on it in good faith will be protected by law. In this sense, if you have transacted on the faith of an old regulation during said time (or during the life of the regulation's validity), it will be as it is and it cannot be subsequently invalidated by a new regulation. So as we speak of Bitcoin, be it known that what is applicable is the regulation during the time of your transaction, and it cannot thereby be invalidated in the future through a new regulation.

If you were talking about taxes in favor of the bitcoin community we could discuss but as for the state that is the questions. The reason is that people started to use bitcoins is that they no longer trust the monetary policies of the state. This is especially true for people with low income. Why should they pay taxes to the state which does not trust?

I suppose i will agree too and it will also help a nation economically if they will use it positively. Tax should really be imposed so that it could also give back for the government. Because if it wont be taxed, where can the government get its funds also?. It's harsh for the reality but if only the citizens will get the benefit of bitcoin, it wont really help the country specially those bitcoin investors does not really help the community. And i think corporations will also manipulate if ever btc will be regulated but not fully taxed.

I would gladly be the one on supporting this regulation and taxation, only if the government official running my country is not corrupt, serve for the betterment of its citizen and work to follow the law to be a good leader. In my country I do now, support our new president and administration and any law regarding taxation is welcome as we have seen tremendous work they’re doin now for infrastructure in our convenience.

Maybe not all bitcoiners will support this move but sooner or later we can’t run and hide for long. We need to face and share as a goodman in our nation.

I think with the gaining popularity of bitcoin, its just a matter of time for the government to really target it for tax purposes. We are one step ahead of them though, but sooner or later they will caught on us specially those not paying taxers. So regulations will the norm for all of us. Its gonna be arduous task for government to do this, but they don't care as long as they can chase people not paying taxes.

Will the community support it? Well for now its really hard to tell, maybe the community will be divided by government imposed bitcoin regulations. Let's see how things turns out in the future.

I think it is not possible. Because lots of people have invested in bitcoin and now it is not possible to invalidate its regulations. All the people in the world want bitcoin to be regularized and one day it will be regularized. I think no body now can stop bitcoin from prevailing and regularization. Bitcoin is life for many people because it is the only source of their income and they have invested lot on money in it.

This regulation even it’s either the transaction is bitcoin to fiat or vice versa, the government will implement a counter bill to or amend the existing one to cater that idea your thinking of. Government is not just focusing on what is trend but on where is the money that circulating for the taxes. We can’t blame them because a country needs taxation to work and function.

This regulation if this is for the goodness of the people and the country, I think the bitcoin community will support it.

It's not real. As soon as there will be cases when the government will try to trace transactions in bitcoins and to impose a tax on all of their users will use mixers. The government will once again be at an impasse. But that's not the problem. The problem is that the community is prepared to repel the attacks of the governments. You need to remember that the best way to defend is attack.

I think it'll be really hard to get everyone on board to be honest. Small and big companies will be slow to it.

One of the biggest problems which now hinders the development of trade is the transaction cost. If you will be buying bitcoins for different goods in Internet shops you need to spend a large amount for the transaction. Much cheaper to transfer a large number of coins in Fiat and shopping is paying by credit card. Until this problem not solved trade will not develop. And it's not the only problem. The miners themselves are substituted and all the rest.

The time for Bitcoin to act really as a currency (where people are buying/selling goods/services using Bitcoin directly) and not just mostly as the store of value (compared to the real gold) is coming. We are then hoping that Amazon would one day be a part of the Bitcoin bandwagon so real eCommerce for cryptocurrency can begin its real initial stage.

Now, can we avoid taxes when we use Bitcoin directly? Yes, that is possible but the government (especially the revenue collecting agents) and soon they will come up with a system where sales tax can be implemented and online retailers and wholesales into Bitcoin have to follow the system or risk an entanglement with the government.

Rather than toying with the idea of avoiding taxes, we have to pay them but in return demand from the government for a better treatment of Bitcoin and providing a clearer platform for cryptocurrency.

Remember: together with death, tax is something so hard to avoid; you can avoid it but eventually the long arms of the government can compel you to chip in your share.

Fiat is the most convenient way to buy things and pay services in which some of establishments mostly small player wont need the power of computer or digital technology but some how your point is an advantage to the digital transaction in which the most safest way than bringing actual money that it might be lost or steal, but this cannot be exempt in goverment regulations as they will just make an policy to urge establishments to list down the names of their clients with the transaction codes and ask to pay value added tax of using the bitcoin as form of payment therefore bitcoin regulations could be anywhere as long your transaction is digital.

Good for you that there is hundreds, thousands of OTHER cryptos that aren't as decentralized as Bitcoin where a center point can be steered for your overall community strategy. Go ahead. =)

Are you sure the community wants this? Decentralization creates lack of an overall strategy. Each pursues its own interests and as a result everyone loses. The miners want to have more profit therefore not profitable to do smaller transactions. How it contributes to the development of trade? Users who use bitcoin for speculation and don't want to spend coins in shops even where there is such a possibility.

Saw this article and it's very relatable to everything decentralized: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/05/how-icos-setting-the-vc-world-ablaze-work.html

Thoughts?

Regulations can only come in picture when Bitcoin is converted to fiat. Government can never regulate something on internet entirely. Even if they do, they won't be successful and yeah by spending Bitcoin online won't bring you under any regulation. That is why the community wants a worldwide adoption of Bitcoin by merchants and vendors for better Bitcoin utility. This will keep governments at bay. And converting Bitcoin to fiat for its usage kills the overall purpose of Bitcoin as a currency. So far Bitcoin hasn't succeeded as currency and that is why governments are able to regulate to good extent. This trend will surely gonna change in coming years.

Yeah, I've actually been thinking about this a while back. They can't realistically tax every single transaction, so they would have to go after exchanges. In the current state of things, you have to go to exchanges because very few merchants currently accept Bitcoins. If everyone starts to accept Bitcoins, then it's true we won't have to go to exchanges and we can evade the regulations applied there.

However, these stores have to be registered to the government, so some regulations apply to them as well. They would have to, and are expected to pay taxes, so they might just include that in the Bitcoin price for remittal. That's what they do with fiat currently right?

More people should read this. Great wisdom.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:320

And it has been answered unequivocally; we've had the exact opposite of angels and countless innocents have been killed by and due to governments, even in the U.S.

Regulation in many areas of public and private life are essential because we as humans are unable to succeed in agreeing what is best. Therefore we band together and decide as collectives what is best for most. Regulations on food, pollution, building standards, you name it. Common currencies need regulations as well and even though BTC is not determined to be a common fiat currency by our government that does not mean that it should not be regulated. Personal property is regulated, stocks, housing, firearms, exotic pets, etc.

I am proud to participate in my society and be a part of the collective and pay my fair share to support reasonable, just and needed regulations in our lives. To support schools, roads, military, government, and all of the things that go into a  healthy and functioning society.

Yes, BTC and alt coins will eventually be more regulated. And? That is reasonable and necessary. It is not happening quickly, there is no panic, but we are not a utopian society, yet.

George D. Greenberg, Esq.

www.attorneybitcoin.com

At the end of the day, the sole reason for regulation on BTC is tax revenues.   The gov't wants its piece of the pie from exchanges who facilitate trading, from the individuals who are selling...basically anywhere they can squeeze extra money.

Ultimately they could care less if a grown adult loses all their money, just as long as they get their cut first.

Well, it was, anyway until all the "Let's REGULATE Bitcoin" peole broke out of their cages.

but some people really understimate the costs.

freedom never comes for free.

If this gets even close, the gov will start to seize the bitcoins nodes and punish whoever is found using or holding bitcoin, like its doin with drugs.. They won't give up power without fight.

The best way to invalidate regulations with anything would first be to educate the people on jury nullification, it is a way that "We the People" can tell our elected servants that we will not comply with there drivel.

become your own exchanger in your town. i done it, and hre is the simplist way.

i gave a local merchant (aswell as a contract) £200 upfront as a kind of bar tab. i also set his phone up that checked my website for MY price valuation. so that as people spent bitcoins with him (which i received) the bartab would decrease for the value of the goods the merchant sold. i would then simply hand him a new lump of money for a fresh bartab as it got low.

that way i was pre-paying him for coins he had not yet received. and he was getting true £200 for £200 of goods (the commission for me was small but cam off the customers side, which due to bitcoin volatility, the customer handing over bitcoin did not even notice the couple percent difference and were also happy to be using bitcoin) so win win win for all involved

the merchant loved it, no risk and no complications, he didnt even need to show me receipts or anything. as long as i seen what i valued to be £200 of bitcoins in my wallet i was happy. and because he already had the £200 prepaid, he was happy. and it both saved us time not having to deal with bank transfers each day or auditing each other. (ofcourse a contract helped with me trusting him.. but then again he owned a business in my town so he cant really run off)

Blockchain.com

once you start getting away from the reliance of FIAT you can start getting bak to the proper law.. common law. and not need all the contractual policies that governments use.. dang it im starting to sound like them "freemen".. honestly im not, but i do like to get law back to the basics of theft and injury instead of the 'nanny' state rules

Sure. You can use a static address for this, like Mycelium wallet for Android, or you can use wallet software that generates new addresses for each transaction, like breadwallet for iPhone. BitPay, coinbase, and BIPS and superfluous in theory if the merchant does not need to convert back into fiat. The only problem is that these wallets are slightly more advanced to operate than the merchant solutions I have seen from some of these companies.

This may come off as a noob question, but wouldn't there be a way to set up Bitcoin payments for brick-and-mortar retailers without requiring something like Bitpay?

And good point about suppliers. I might float the idea of accepting Bitcoin with a couple of wholesale companies I know about.

in the utopian world where the suppliers of grocery stores also accepted BTC and all staff accepted BTC as wages.. and the store sold everything in BTC then yea, theory is that we can live without fiat.

but right now we are 0.02% there... baby steps.

and to those trying to get merchants onboard, find out their suppliers and get their suppliers onboard. otherwise bitcoin is just a gimmick to make bitpay rich. we need to make merchants self reliant. not requiring bitpay

Yes, i see your point. But note one thing, most of the transactions , if not all, associated with merchants who accept btc use service like bitpay, which instantly converts btc to fiat.
One could do as u say if we remove the conversion from purchases, but its highly unlikely that anyone would want to gamble their sales profit on bitcoin price.

Idealy, the system would work, but in real life, it wouldnt stand a chance im afraid.

That's the ultimate goal with bitcoin, using it, even for paying taxes.

I was thinking for a while, and realised that most government regulations are imposed when a person exchanges BTC -> fiat. I'm sure you all know this.

If we convinced local grocery stores to accept BTC, wouldn't that mean we could very well live in a society where we don't need to exchange to fiat?

If you can buy the necessities of life with Bitcoin, then why would you need fiat? There's websites that sell anything you can think of for Bitcoin.

Just food for though, I'd like to see what everyone's opinion is.

And sorry if this has been discussed many times before, I'm just curious.

DISCUSS!