I'm bumping up this topic, because it is something I would like to ask, but Benny has framed it so well nearly 7 years ago.
With decentralization becoming essential for survival (if a great reset happens without being stopped), and I think there is a great need for a Freigeld type system as Worgl had for new local decentralized communities.
I am willing to start thinking, brainstorming, coding, or first putting a paper together to iron out what such a system would entail. It would likely be just a simple token that any local community can clone to run their own Freigeld on any existing blockchain (or even private servers).
I think such a system can be expanded using cryptography technology to not only cover money, but also make a local government a free market idea, in that crypto voting can be used to decide who the local government is and what they should do.
Any other people interested in such a system, that would like to discuss it?
Topic: Cryptocurrency based on Gesell's FreeMoney (Freigeld) (For development) (Read 710 times)
December 01, 2021, 03:41:24 PM
April 09, 2014, 04:05:27 PM
I hope I don't disturb you with a bump. I joined specifically for a discussion regarding this.
I understand most here are interested in wealth generation. It's about the different types of coins and who developed good ones and what is a winning bet. I hope you understand the reason I bump is not to annoy you or disrupt anything.
I also understand that for the more technical here the coding involved is far beyond what other cryptocurrency has done. I get that there would be issues that would need to be worked through. I persist because this is worthy of persistence.
<3
I understand most here are interested in wealth generation. It's about the different types of coins and who developed good ones and what is a winning bet. I hope you understand the reason I bump is not to annoy you or disrupt anything.
I also understand that for the more technical here the coding involved is far beyond what other cryptocurrency has done. I get that there would be issues that would need to be worked through. I persist because this is worthy of persistence.
<3
April 09, 2014, 01:46:02 PM
Hello all,
I'm new to the forum and know only a newbie's level of knowledge for cryptocurrency but became interested in it as a side effect of researching a different topic. That is, a continuation of the work of Silvio Gesell. If you are not familiar with him you can read his work here. https://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/
The man was truly a visionary. The developer of our current theory of economics praised his work as did Adam Smith, the founder of the free market. People had since used his theory to bolster local economies. The original experiment was in Worgl Austria. The story is told here... http://alt-money.tribe.net/thread/70e5eb29-853d-44ca-9faa-b789d1757037
Since it has been applied to other towns, with varying success. Most had found it beneficial at least in the short term. It's becoming increasingly popular as a method for local economies. Often it is used as a time currency... and at it's core is very much a ledger system.
It's very subversive to existing power structures... it is the currency of anarchy. You can see by the tale and Worgl and this http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-crime-of-alleviating-poverty-a-local-community-currency-battles-the-central-bank-of-kenya/5341276
My guess is that anyone interested in making it big and a ton of money via smart investments would want to stop reading. No one would get rich with this project.
Cryptocurrency could be used as this ledger system to create a worldwide standard for this vision and I would want to help in developing it as well as float the idea to you all who would be much smarter, more experienced, and well versed than I am.
The problem with bitcoin and other cryptocurrency is that it continues to be a battle of the haves versus the have nots. Some have it and others want it. It is a concept of money as a scarcity... and the idea that for some the value that they have provided to society is simply that they are rich.
The truth is that this is not something that will help society in the world reach the ultimate potential it has. We all would love to believe in this life where others are forever indebted to us with our wealth and willing to work for it as we leisurely float through life. It is an amazing dream and for it we have agreed upon a monetary system that allows us to be manipulated sacrificing our lives in pursuit of achieving it. Others live this dream. It is a result of interest in the form that we currently know it. It encourages hoarding, hoarding encouraging theft, violence, and covetous behavior.
Those basing systems from Gesell's design find that the results are much different. You can read about the contrast in behavior here. http://www.opencurrency.com/community-currencies-benefit-consumers-as-much-as-local-businesses/
The current monetary system benefits very few. Encouraging hoarding benefits the old who have had time to do this. The contrast is that for most starting out, few could generate enough wealth to fully provide for their family before they end the typical breeding age. In other words, if you want a family you need to pay for this family and you will go into debt paying for this the rest of your life. What you see as a result of interest is the point at which the number it benefits becoming increasingly scarce. The bar is moved until only very few have most of the wealth. This is what we see today.
http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/1998_usury.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
The fact of the matter that bitcoin and others separates society into the have and have not (albeit there is great benefit in no person being able to game this for their benefit which is genius) will result in interest. That is inevitable. I have already read about a bitcoin Libor... how gross is that? The Libor scandal, if you do not understand it, cannot be understated as a key reason behind the flaw in any system like this.
I have found that this just doesn't work. We are setting the goal as being "above" instead of what the truth is; which is that we are this superorganism, like an army of ants, working as one. If we are willing to be "equal to" then what is left is simply a ledger system to understand a role within society and it becomes increasingly worthless and ineffective to game the system.
I have also found the beauty in this design mimics the way the universe is designed. Matter destroys antimatter. Everything is simply a vibration composing of both an up and a down over time and science may very well have proven that time does not exist.
Money is simply belief. It doesn't really exist... we just think it has value and we think others think it has value. At it's core it is a societal agreement of value but no animal besides humans seem to recognize this value because it works like a type of mass psychosis.
To run a system like this it seems the wallets and transactions need to be able to work in a negative capacity. The money is created from nothingness like the universe. It starts as 0. One person needs to pay another a dollar (or whatever it is ultimately named (Freigeld comes to mind) and the count is +1 for one and -1 for the other. Hoarding is discouraged via a negative interest rate (a tax paid on holding a positive balance for X amount of time) and this would need to go to the miners for holding the ledger and confirmations. The possible available negative balance can be calculated based upon a similar system to how credit limits are currently designed (flow in Vs. flow out) and there is no interest on the negative balance. The point of taxing hoarding is to avoid inflation as the goal is to continuously return the ledger system to 0. There would also need to be a set amount for an initial negative value that anyone, globally, has a right to. These mathematics would need to be built into the system.
I share this because the development of such a thing would benefit everyone... rich and poor.
Belief in such a system would begin in the poor communities as they have a way to insert liquidity into their communities in the way these community currencies provide boosts. Make it common (which poorness is) and the belief can switch to this system and this provides its own value.
The long term vision for such a thing may include public policy being decided upon a negative or positive value and traditionally these systems have made the ledger public to avoid fraud (with cryptocurrency I'm not positive that's needed).
Obviously this needs plenty of work and discussion about how to accomplish this and possible ways to game the system and prevent this. Like I said... you all are much better at such things. I figure, even horrible soul crushing criticism to this newbs idea would be beneficial.
In the past such systems have been shut down by force which Bitcoin has figured out a way to avoid. I would love to be able to leverage this technology for what has shown to be, historically, the most effective monetary policy ever conceived of.
Who would be interested in further discussion for such a topic?
Love you all,
Ben
I'm new to the forum and know only a newbie's level of knowledge for cryptocurrency but became interested in it as a side effect of researching a different topic. That is, a continuation of the work of Silvio Gesell. If you are not familiar with him you can read his work here. https://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/
The man was truly a visionary. The developer of our current theory of economics praised his work as did Adam Smith, the founder of the free market. People had since used his theory to bolster local economies. The original experiment was in Worgl Austria. The story is told here... http://alt-money.tribe.net/thread/70e5eb29-853d-44ca-9faa-b789d1757037
Since it has been applied to other towns, with varying success. Most had found it beneficial at least in the short term. It's becoming increasingly popular as a method for local economies. Often it is used as a time currency... and at it's core is very much a ledger system.
It's very subversive to existing power structures... it is the currency of anarchy. You can see by the tale and Worgl and this http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-crime-of-alleviating-poverty-a-local-community-currency-battles-the-central-bank-of-kenya/5341276
My guess is that anyone interested in making it big and a ton of money via smart investments would want to stop reading. No one would get rich with this project.
Cryptocurrency could be used as this ledger system to create a worldwide standard for this vision and I would want to help in developing it as well as float the idea to you all who would be much smarter, more experienced, and well versed than I am.
The problem with bitcoin and other cryptocurrency is that it continues to be a battle of the haves versus the have nots. Some have it and others want it. It is a concept of money as a scarcity... and the idea that for some the value that they have provided to society is simply that they are rich.
The truth is that this is not something that will help society in the world reach the ultimate potential it has. We all would love to believe in this life where others are forever indebted to us with our wealth and willing to work for it as we leisurely float through life. It is an amazing dream and for it we have agreed upon a monetary system that allows us to be manipulated sacrificing our lives in pursuit of achieving it. Others live this dream. It is a result of interest in the form that we currently know it. It encourages hoarding, hoarding encouraging theft, violence, and covetous behavior.
Those basing systems from Gesell's design find that the results are much different. You can read about the contrast in behavior here. http://www.opencurrency.com/community-currencies-benefit-consumers-as-much-as-local-businesses/
The current monetary system benefits very few. Encouraging hoarding benefits the old who have had time to do this. The contrast is that for most starting out, few could generate enough wealth to fully provide for their family before they end the typical breeding age. In other words, if you want a family you need to pay for this family and you will go into debt paying for this the rest of your life. What you see as a result of interest is the point at which the number it benefits becoming increasingly scarce. The bar is moved until only very few have most of the wealth. This is what we see today.
http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/1998_usury.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
The fact of the matter that bitcoin and others separates society into the have and have not (albeit there is great benefit in no person being able to game this for their benefit which is genius) will result in interest. That is inevitable. I have already read about a bitcoin Libor... how gross is that? The Libor scandal, if you do not understand it, cannot be understated as a key reason behind the flaw in any system like this.
I have found that this just doesn't work. We are setting the goal as being "above" instead of what the truth is; which is that we are this superorganism, like an army of ants, working as one. If we are willing to be "equal to" then what is left is simply a ledger system to understand a role within society and it becomes increasingly worthless and ineffective to game the system.
I have also found the beauty in this design mimics the way the universe is designed. Matter destroys antimatter. Everything is simply a vibration composing of both an up and a down over time and science may very well have proven that time does not exist.
Money is simply belief. It doesn't really exist... we just think it has value and we think others think it has value. At it's core it is a societal agreement of value but no animal besides humans seem to recognize this value because it works like a type of mass psychosis.
To run a system like this it seems the wallets and transactions need to be able to work in a negative capacity. The money is created from nothingness like the universe. It starts as 0. One person needs to pay another a dollar (or whatever it is ultimately named (Freigeld comes to mind) and the count is +1 for one and -1 for the other. Hoarding is discouraged via a negative interest rate (a tax paid on holding a positive balance for X amount of time) and this would need to go to the miners for holding the ledger and confirmations. The possible available negative balance can be calculated based upon a similar system to how credit limits are currently designed (flow in Vs. flow out) and there is no interest on the negative balance. The point of taxing hoarding is to avoid inflation as the goal is to continuously return the ledger system to 0. There would also need to be a set amount for an initial negative value that anyone, globally, has a right to. These mathematics would need to be built into the system.
I share this because the development of such a thing would benefit everyone... rich and poor.
Belief in such a system would begin in the poor communities as they have a way to insert liquidity into their communities in the way these community currencies provide boosts. Make it common (which poorness is) and the belief can switch to this system and this provides its own value.
The long term vision for such a thing may include public policy being decided upon a negative or positive value and traditionally these systems have made the ledger public to avoid fraud (with cryptocurrency I'm not positive that's needed).
Obviously this needs plenty of work and discussion about how to accomplish this and possible ways to game the system and prevent this. Like I said... you all are much better at such things. I figure, even horrible soul crushing criticism to this newbs idea would be beneficial.
In the past such systems have been shut down by force which Bitcoin has figured out a way to avoid. I would love to be able to leverage this technology for what has shown to be, historically, the most effective monetary policy ever conceived of.
Who would be interested in further discussion for such a topic?
Love you all,
Ben
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